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Cemetaries And Caching.


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No, we shouldn't hide caches in cemeteries - for the reason you illustrate.

 

I don't think the officials in this case handled the situation very well, and the law they brought in was a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Their feeble attempt to contact geocaching.com gives it away: they didn't just want the caches removing, they wanted to legislate against geocaching.

 

We have to be realistic, and not give people ammunition against geocaching unnecessarily. We know that not all cachers are going to behave discreetly in such places, so encouraging graveyard caching will lead to trouble sooner or later.

 

It's quite common that a multi-cache stage uses a graveyard inscription, however. As these are public places, there's no real reason why not. After all, many people will visit a church and have a stroll round the gravestones, looking for old or interesting ones and making notes or taking photos.

 

Probably the best compromise if you want to use a gravestone as a clue is to make the description clearly remind people to act in an appropriate fashion. Any ill-advised photos should be deleted by the cache owner from logs as well, in case someone in the area is looking for ammunition.

 

If I end up in a cemetery, you're free to place a cache right on top of my grave, by the way, and give it a totally irreverent name - please do, in fact!

 

HH

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Could we end up in a situation like THIS

Probably not - but all the same, I think it's time to re-open the discussion about this.

 

Here in Ireland, we've had a significant influx of new (and very enthusiastic) recruits to the hobby. Some of them have expressed surprise and a little concern about this exact issue, and we've had a useful discussion about it in the local GI forum.

 

It was thought that there's a distinction to be made between cemeteries as a general location, and the use of headstones, grave markers or other memorials themselves as hiding places.

 

I'll be interested to see what the views are, here.

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I certainly feel a little uneasy looking for a cache in a graveyard This One recently. Next to the cache there is a cat basket with the ashes of a cat inside. Of course, many people assume the basket is the cache location....

 

This cache seems to have been placed with the agreement of the graveyard owners, however, as the person who looks after it waves at cachers as they enter it!

Edited by Pieman
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greetings,

 

i dont think any caches should be located by a persons resting place,they should be allowed to sleep in peace.i also have a problem with 'numbers' gleaned from headstones,seems a little disrespectful to me..peoples details used for entertainment ?.the thought of people trapsing around graveyards looking for 'clues' doesnt fill me with joy i have to say.

the same applies to ancient burial sites,something that is close to my heart,all to often total disrespect is shown to these places,a sad reflection of todays society.

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Sue & I are not too comfortable with such caches - we would not like people playing a game around about us should we be in a similar location for more serious intentions.

 

Along the same lines, we recently ditched a cache that required us to seek some answers inside a Church. Again, as secular types, we would simply squirm with embarassment if some-one who was seriously involved with the Church started to ask awkward question our passing interest in the place.

 

We avoided the situation by abandoning the cache ...after a 14 mile bike ride to get there!

 

We did treat ourselves to a bag of chips each on the way home.

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I must admit I do like Graveyard caches. I have not found a cache in a graveyard but obtained clues from gravestones which I find fascinating. They have been old and interesting ones. A graveyard can tell of a small village’s history. How people lived and why they died. The stones are inscribed for all to see and read, placed by relatives and friends. Also long gone in many cases, so they won’t mind ether. If we have to get a clue from a stone we have to read it and learn about the person of persons buried there. Which is why the stone was erected in the first place.

More of the Graveyard locations please especially very old ones.

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I agree that graveyards are great places for caches in principle, but in reality - do we trust ALL geocachers to behave properly when visiting them?

 

It only takes one group to start charging about and calling out excitedly, and I can see offence being caused to those who feel the need for a few moments of quiet contemplation at a graveside. If a couple of cachers stroll in and quietly move a little stone hidden in an obscure corner to log a cache, after checking that no-one is around, it shouldn't be a problem. But the question is, do we trust EVERYONE to do that? It's supposed to be a family game, and children will insist on getting excited and noisy - even adults do too occasionally!

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I think HH has it right. I have lost count of the number of graveyards I have visited for caches (not least the Saints and Sinners series) and none has been a problem in my view. If children are visiting it is surely an opportunity for parents to teach them that this is a place to be respected- sadly a few will not but that is how we live now.

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And there I was about to place a cache in two of our local churchyards!

 

From this you will gather that I have no qualms about mooching about in cemetaries; but then I grew up living next to one (occupational hazard for the son of a clergyman) and am a regular visitor to cemetaries as a regular churchgoer. I am well aware of the problems of misbehaviour in churchyards as I am also a churchwarden (responsible, amongst other things, for stopping the buildings and their environs from falling apart). There have been problems with people doing things with needles in one of the churchyards but we've sorted that and would be happy to have more people enjoying the area. It should be remembered that one of the points of a headstone is to act as an aid to remember the person whom it commemorates, therefore their use as clues is good because it can make us think about the person that was buried there. I stand and look around the cemetary and it's a who's who of the families of the local worthies and it brings to life (as it were) the history of the area.

 

So do I go ahead and place the caches? They'd neither of them be under a headstone. My preferred spot in one place is a bush that covers a very old grave. Technically speaking the bush should not be there (the rules are quite clear about what's allowed in a churchyard), so I could try and chase up the relatives (after some 70 years) and say get it out - or I can make use of it as it is quite a feature and rather more tasteful than some of the other illegal additions. I'd rather see more folk around.

 

It's true that some folk won't behave in the churchyards but my advice is to keep the caching away from the areas that are in current use (churchyards get filled up in areas) and then those folk who might be there for more serious purposes will not have to put up with the others. I was doing an almost local cache in a churchyard and kept it very quiet as there was a lady who was paying her respects to a relative. So my plan was to use those graves where the dates were no less than 60 years old which would keep everything out of the way of anyone paying their respects and to hide the caches in bushes/trees thereby ensuring that there's no tomb-robbing.

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We have a mixed opinion with Church yard caches. We can understand the reasoning in people not liking trapsing round gravestones, but from our experience we always treat the site with the utmost respect, and have taught our children so.

We have visited many caches which have taken us to Churches/Graveyards and have had lovely experiences which we would never normally have had the privilage to see.

We believe that graveyards are a place to visit and respect, and one can learn a lot from visiting them.

The Churches themselves are normally rich in history, and we sought clues at one church graveyard in Leighton Buzzard, and were invited inside to look at the church interior which we absolutley loved. We had a lovely guided tour and we would never had visited the Church unless we were caching.

Another cache we did (Another Graveyard) We were greeted on site as the Vicar and his wife were setting up a coffee morning and invited us to join them, we went on our way to find the cache and on return we made a donation for the Church.

At the end of the day, we think that if you treat these places with the respect that they deserve you are no more unwelcome than any other visitor.

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I started reading this on the side of caution and thinking we shouldn't intrude however I think Wilburii makes some good points - presumably, placed with permission of the church warden/rector/vicar/... they should be OK. Maybe with a note to the cachers to show a bit of respect.

 

I would have thought the person giving that permission would also be able to say where the oldest and least likely to offend part of the graveyard is, if it's not immediately obvious.

 

I like graveyard caches - if they were outlawed I'd have not visited Florence Nightingales grave, Tony Hancocks, Arthur Conan-Doyles, a celebrity horse, and some assorted pirates and no doubt I'd still be ignorant of the Portugese and Canadian efforts during WW2.

 

I'm now on the side of common sense, let the yanks overreact and let us remember who we are.

 

Watching Spitfire Ace last night, the repeated thought was that the Battle of Britain fighters - survivors and not - don't want fancy recogition or wealth, they just want to be remembered. If caching helps take people to their graves and reminds a few people of their deeds I reckon they'd be up for it.

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I started reading this on the side of caution and thinking we shouldn't intrude however I think Wilburii makes some good points - presumably, placed with permission of the church warden/rector/vicar/... they should be OK. Maybe with a note to the cachers to show a bit of respect.

 

I would have thought the person giving that permission would also be able to say where the oldest and least likely to offend part of the graveyard is, if it's not immediately obvious.

 

...from my point of view I think this, together with the quoted post, says it all.

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We certainly would not feel happy about looking for an actual cache in a graveyard, but see nothing wrong with looking for clues on headstones. Funnily enough we have visited two graveyards today while out cacheing, one to look for a clue from a famous naturalists headstone and where tourists are positively encouraged to go into the graveyard; and the second was a virtual cache where the setter asked people who visited to take flowers to place on the grave as people from the town still remember the small girl who is buried there and place flowers on her grave. My small boys thought this was a lovely idea and were very respectful when placing their own flowers and walking in both the graveyards. We feel the majority of people do show respect when visiting these types of caches and are we looking for problems where there are none?

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I have also had concerns with caching in grave yards, I am not condemning the placer of these cache as they can be interesting places. I feel the should be treated with respect and should not be used and come under the heading of archaeological or historical sites. I would also ask the question has the land manager been consulted ? to include all cache even the old established ones. Our local council has carried out safety inspections on all graveyard tomb as someone had been seriously hurt when one toppling over.When looking for the cache the gps signal can be vague and you could be wandering all over the place looking for the correct co-ords. You hear of so many churches and graveyards being vandalised and would not like geocachers to be suspected. You also read on the forum, not all geocaches are playing by the rule but by the rules as they see it.

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There is something peculiarly British in our attitude to them 'ol bones - and as it seems, the 'excessive (perhaps)' reverence bestowed upon them which as it happens is a relative new innovation into our culture. Having said that, if its reverence people want - then reverence they can have.

 

In Europe them 'ol bones in cemeteries have a strictly defined 'shelf life' if thats the right expression after which everything inlcuding TGVs and motorways can be speeded through without let or hinderance.

 

So as to caching: well cemeteries are microcosms of our history and some have truly fascinating graves, histories and details so if I am directed to a graveyard cache I expect to have something interesting revealed ( err no offence intended ). I was delighted to find Tony Hancock's last resting place. I have no problems whatsoever in placing clues in cemeteries ( but I'd prefer them to be interesting clues ).

 

Council cemeteries could be considered more public than church cemeteries. Intrinsically I dont have a problem with a tupperware box being hidden in a part of a cemetery away from a final resting place ( provided normal access guidlines have been adhered to ).

 

As to myself and fewkinder - watch this space but we have bought some woodland for our final resting place and in true bad taste we are setting up a cache on top of our intended final resting place with a homily to our kids to continue the cache when we are beneath it.

 

We had considered calling it the 'Drop Dead' cache but we think thats a bit out on a limb! ( oh dear the double entendres still flow ). We are open to suggestions for a name!

 

:o

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I have just adopted a cache that is located in a graveyard. However, this graveyard is no longer is use and is quite old. Is was sometime in the 40's when some one was last buried. Personally I wouldn't plant a cache in a active graveyard, but with regards to inactive ones, as long as the cache location is appropriate, i don't see a problem.

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I've always enjoyed a wander through a cemetary. Reading the names and dates and epitaphs can be quite interesting at times. As already mentioned, how can the people buried ever be remembered if no one visits them, whether you know the person or not?

 

I don't see a problem with caching in a cemetary.

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would appear the problem has arisen over there due to lack of permission and idiots caching?

 

if the officials at the church are happy then go ahead. i've done several at memorials and graveyards and as has been said have enjoyed learning some history in the process.

 

we can't stop idiots, be it in a churchyard or anywhere else some people are just very selfish and will cause offence either through ignorance or arrogance. all we can do is try to educate them gently. if we limited what we do just to stop those few people we'd not do anything.

 

walk softly and quietly and enjoy the views!

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Lets not get excited by a bunch of yanks getting their asses in a twist (again)

 

There are a few very important points in the article that we need to remember

 

1) Private Cemetaries..... we have few if any in this country

2) Americans.... Nuff said

3) South Carolina.... occupied by people like americans only 10 x worse

4) I can easilly see America being the country where its legal to carry a gun, but if your seen with a GPS and some tupperware you can expect 5-10 in sing sing.... dont laugh in some states buying items made from lead is illegal due to lead being a health hazzard.........with the exception to bullets!

 

Cemetaries in the UK are important historical sites each one will contain more history than the entirety of the USA, as opposed to cemetaries in the states which are over-tended gardens.

 

Anyone is free to visit and explore cemetaries in the UK, and indeed there are very few that are not worth exploring.

 

Dont waste your time visiting cemetaries in the states, banning geocaching from cemetaries in the states could be considered doing Geocaching a favour!

 

Next we will start talking about banning Geocaches from within 50 feet of all these impromptu roadside cenotaphs that are cropping up all over the place marking to spot where someone died in an RTA

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(snip)

Anyone is free to visit and explore cemetaries (sic) in the UK, and indeed there are very few that are not worth exploring.

Not so.

 

A cemetery or burial ground may (or may not) be private property in its entirety, with no general right of public access. This might be indicated by a sign or notice, but it doesn't have to be.

 

A individual burial PLOT may also be private property - in the sense that the rights to it are owned by an individual or (more usually) by a family. This is a formal type of property ownership, involving deed and registry.

 

(The law on this in Scotland differs slightly from that in England & Wales, and in Ireland from both.)

 

Such posession gives the owner(s) a right to decide what is placed on the plot, in the way of memorials or other markers.

 

This could be a problem...

 

In such a case, anyone who hides a cache in such a place - behind or under a grave marker, for example - could be guilty of trespass.

 

Worth thinking about. <_<

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I heard that your GPS won't work in a graveyard and that you have to use dead reckoning. :ph34r:

That happened to me at this cache. As soon as I set foot in the graveyard my GPS lost all signal...weird. Came back after cache owner relocated the cache and found no problem!

Well, it certainly seems to be a grave situation. Perhaps your GPS becomes confused 'cos it's in the dead center of town? <_<

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I also like caching in graveyards, it's nice to look at the inscriptions on the headstones of people who died hundreds of years ago, Deneye had it right...

how can the people buried ever be remembered if no one visits them

Sometimes the inscriptions tell stories and from looking a many graves you can piece together a story from times gone by. Some may regard this as disrespectful but I believe the opposite to be true, negligence is a form of disrespect and the few graveyard caches I've done take you to old graves not recent ones.

 

I hope that in 200 years time my grave is visited by some random people (probably wearing aluminim foil and space-helments by then) and that they'll think about days gone by. I might even request a headstone with a stash-box in it for caching, plus a plot with little or no tree cover!

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I don't like caching in a graveyard. I do it, but under protest, when it is part of a multi that I wasn't previously aware of.

 

I don't believe that graveyards are the place to play a game. I don't mind if the cache owner says something like "Take a look in the local graveyard while you are passing, some of the inscriptions are very moving".

 

But hiding a cache or a micro in one is something I don't like.

 

Using information from a gravestone I also don't liek since this is still "playing" a game on consecrated ground.

 

I'm quite happy to use information from elsewhere in a church itself (eg "How many stained glass windows in the north wall of the nave?" But to me a church is not quite the same as a graveyard. I think people expect to be left alone in a graveyard. If someone locally famous is buried innside a church, then by definition permission has been given to walk all over them without regard to them.

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I own one cache located in a local graveyard which highlights the life and times of Lord Haw-Haw, also known as William Joyce. Before you all jump up and shout "fascist", do remember that this gentleman was a prominent feature of life in wartime Britain and it is a little known fact that he is interred in Galway, Ireland.

 

The cache is a micro and is located in a small bush which is not near, or on, any grave sites.

 

I am quite proud of the cache as many people have left appreciative logs, and most do take a wander around the graveyard, visiting graves of people like Padraig O'Conaire, Lady Gregory and Walter Macken.

 

There are many unidentified victims of the Air India crash in 1985 buried here, and (students of British military history will find this very interesting), even a Queens Royal (17th) Lancer, a present-day regiment with history to 1759.

 

My point is that graveyards are about as good as history gets, all it takes is for it to be highlighted. I do agree with the boundaries of taste discussed above, but surely, if a cache is placed and visitors disagree with the location, sooner or later the logs will reflect this or somebody will e-mail the owner with an objection.

 

I don't think that a blanket ban on graveyards is the way forward - but who is to say that it won't come to this. To avoid that happening, responsible behaviour is the key.

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There are many unidentified victims of the Air India crash in 1985 buried here, and (students of British military history will find this very interesting), even a Queens Royal (17th) Lancer, a present-day regiment with history to 1759.

 

 

Just to bring you up-to-date, in 1993, the 17th/21st Lancers amalgamated with the 16th/5th Lancers to form the Queens Royal Lancers who are currently based in Catterick, N Yorkshire.

 

Queens Royal Lancers

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There are many unidentified victims of the Air India crash in 1985 buried here, and (students of British military history will find this very interesting), even a Queens Royal (17th) Lancer, a present-day regiment with history to 1759.

 

 

Just to bring you up-to-date, in 1993, the 17th/21st Lancers amalgamated with the 16th/5th Lancers to form the Queens Royal Lancers who are currently based in Catterick, N Yorkshire.

 

Queens Royal Lancers

And that's why the 17th was in brackets <_< - because in August 1922 the regiment amalgamated into the 17th/21st Lancers - this continued, as you said, until 1993.

 

Ok, back to topic

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I think people expect to be left alone in a graveyard.

Yes, I get really fed up when I'm minding my own business in a graveyard and people come up wanting a chat!!!!

- this happened to me, I was having a numbers day and visited a church for a graveyard cache. I pulled up outside, sat in the car while my GPSr got it's signal and the vicar strolled up, greeting me with "Have you come to visit the geocache?" and chatted for 15 minutes or more. I learnt alot about the place mind <_<

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Lord Haw-Haw, also known as William Joyce

Padraig O'Conaire

Lady Gregory

Walter Macken

 

Sorry Klaus, but I don't recognise a single name that you posted there! :lol:<_<:ph34r:

 

However..... if I had done your cache, I would have done. Long live cemetery caches I say (if you'll excuse the pun!)

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Lord Haw-Haw, also known as William Joyce

Padraig O'Conaire

Lady Gregory

Walter Macken

 

Sorry Klaus, but I don't recognise a single name that you posted there! :lol:<_<:ph34r:

 

However..... if I had done your cache, I would have done. Long live cemetery caches I say (if you'll excuse the pun!)

Ah that's ok, I was just name-dropping :lol:

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Diificult this one.

 

I have adopted a cemetary cache and still have concerns about how appropriate it is to cache in cemetaries.

 

It is well away from the burial area and was placed by the original owner after some discussion with a friend of his who has relatives in the cemetary.

 

So long as you are discreet I dont think there is that much of a problem.

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Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be. I am not for one minute suggesting that a cache should not attract people to a graveyard, but that when they do, keep the cache just outside the graveyard so they can have the choice as to whether to enter or not. Don't make going into the yard integral to the doing of the cache.

 

Can't see why anyone would object to that!

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keep the cache just outside the graveyard so they can have the choice as to whether to enter or not.

The choice is already given....when you stand at the front gate and your GPSr is showing 50 metres to go, dead ahead.

 

You either choose to go in or not.

 

Like when you stand at the shore of a lake or a river and your GPSr is telling you to go in or across...you choose if it's worth getting wet or not.

 

and if caching is the "game" that people are claiming it to be, then it shouldn't hurt to turn around and hunt a different one.

Edited by Deneye
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Can we try and keep "America knocking" out of this discussion please.

Hear Hear!

 

I work for a US organisation in the UK and was surprised to read this in the corporate mag recently... "I joined xxx recently, and have been getting a lot of calls from European colleagues, something I never used to get in my old jobs. I have had trouble relaing to their humor and attitude - it seems to be a bit 'out there.' How should I deal with this?" Well, it made me laugh

 

I guess what is 'right' and 'respectful' depends on your personal ethics.

 

Vive la difference!

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