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South Carolina Legislation Meeting


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These are the folks I plan on writing to this afternoon/evening since they are located where I do most of my SC vacationing/visiting. I'm going to email the 4 and then send hard copy letters to the 4 (as a reminder):

 

Vida O. Miller (Mrs. James Dores)

Retailer, Grayman Gallery

Dist. No. 108 - Charleston & Georgetown Cos.

(H) P.O. Box 3157, Pawleys Island, 29585

Bus. (843) 237-2578 Home (843) 237-8603

© 335D Blatt Bldg., Columbia, 29211

Bus. (803) 734-2957 Home

VOM@scstatehouse.net

 

Representative Tracy R. Edge

District 104 - Horry Co.

Contact Address:

(H) P.O. Box 2095, Myrtle Beach, 29577

Bus. (843) 448-5123 Home (843) 361-2827

© 503B Blatt Bldg., Columbia, 29211

Bus. (803) 734-3013 Home

E-Mail Address: TE@scstatehouse.net

 

Representative Thad T. Viers

District 68 - Horry Co.

Contact Address:

(H) P.O. Box 31231, Myrtle Beach, 29588

Bus. (843) 903-2982 Home (843) 903-2982

© 434A Blatt Bldg., Columbia, 29211

Bus. (803) 734-3062 Home

E-Mail Address: ViersT@scstatehouse.net

 

Representative Nelson L. Hardwick

District 106 - Horry Co.

Contact Address:

(H) 714 Cedar Drive North, Surfside Beach, 29575

Bus. (843) 238-1142 Home (843) 238-8380

© 320C Blatt Bldg., Columbia, 29211

Bus. (803) 734-2967 Home

E-Mail Address: HardwickN@scstatehouse.net

Edited by AtlantaGal
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Please don't consider this bashing, but the link below will demonstrate for non-SC residents the thing of beauty (sarcasm) that our legislature can be.....

 

SC Legislative talents on display

 

Pop-up blockers may interfere with this link ... if so try holding down the CTRL key while clicking. There is a short advert before the news story.

You know, if I had been the reported and he has told me, with the camera's rolling, that I was not very bright and "to ask such a question shows your depth of ignorance", he would have gotten an ear full. My first response would have been something like: "There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. My handicap can be over come, yours cannot!"

 

Guess that is why I am not in politics.

 

Bear

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I just got a call back from a gentleman in the legal department at Hertz. I explained to him the legislation currently under consideration (this explanation had to include a short history and description of Geocaching), and then I read him the part of the legislation that Hertz should be concerned about:

 

/2 'Geocaching' means the activity of participants using a global positioning system (GPS) device to locate the geocache or another specific location./

 

Although the conversation was short, he agreed that as currently written the bill seemed to make criminal the ability of Hertz's customers to use the car's onboard Navigation system to arrive at certain restricted destinations. He said that this issue was worth talking over with his colleagues in order to determine what Hertz needed to do.

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A co-worker of mine suggested at lunch today that someone in SC contact the Garmin and Magellan companies since they would likely be interested in any potential loss of sales in SC. Corporations such as those can be useful allies.

I was just logging on to suggest this. I have contact info for someone direct (via email) at Garmin if someone from SC would like it.

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I wasn't able to view the news thing, so don't flame me if this is what the news thing was about. Anyway, on to the topic, I heard on the radio this morning that it is now a felony to have gamecocks fighting and it is ok to be a wife beater. Yes, the wife beater law did not get passed. So everyone out there it is ok, accourding to our SC government to beat your wife or spouse, but it might become against the law to geocache or use a gps. This sounds insane to me.

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I wasn't able to view the news thing, so don't flame me if this is what the news thing was about. Anyway, on to the topic, I heard on the radio this morning that it is now a felony to have gamecocks fighting and it is ok to be a wife beater. Yes, the wife beater law did not get passed. So everyone out there it is ok, accourding to our SC government to beat your wife or spouse, but it might become against the law to geocache or use a gps. This sounds insane to me.

I sympathise, but if you check the news article, you'll see that what happened was that cock-fighting got uprated to a felony but spouse-beating didn't; apparently this was more to do with technicalities in the drafting of the bill than any conscious decision by legislators to place male chickens above female (in most cases) humans, and the good burghers of SC are promised felony spousal abuse legislation "Real Soon Now".

 

That said, the tone of the legislator interviewed in the clip (see posts above) was close to jaw-dropping at one or two points.

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To become a law it must pass the House and Senate and be signed by the Governor.

Has anyone tried contacting the Governor of SC? If you can get him on our side, then the House and Senate votes are moot. B)

Hopefully that's the backup plan. It's still better if it's never passed due to lack of support. Then we don't get into the Veto and Veto overide politics.

 

In Idaho the Governer has a program where if you visit every county and get a stamp from a participating business you get a certificate. The goal is to promote in state tourism. When I spoke with the Department of Commerce about the program I was amazed at how much participation it had.

 

If SC has a similar program that's an easy tie in to gain government support. Geocaching does that without having to print certificates, or administrate the program. Alternately the SC geocachers group can talk to their Department of commerce (or equivalent) and propose a similar program that builds grass roots business support for the in state tourism that Geocaching brings about.

 

Yet two more cents on this topic.

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Speaking of tourism, I travel quite a bit to cache. Anymore I plan my vacations based on it. I particularly like it when I find areas with a lot of interesting things and then go there for a trip to both cache and play tourist. I also enjoy finding caches in new states and so states that I have not cached in often affect my travel plans. Interestingly enough, I was looking at the possibility of going to Florida soon via a drive from Georgia. If I did that, it would leave South Carolina as a hole in my map of states cached in. Normally that hole would drive me nuts and I would start looking at how I could play tourist in SC (which has many neat historical areas) and also cache. But if the bill passed the SC House and Senate, I bet I would never bother to go fill that hole in the map. There are plenty of other interesting places that I also want to see that both allow and welcome caches. B)

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Just wanted to pass along a little more info....

 

Catherine Ceips, who started this anti-geocaching nonsense, has had other targets in the past.......

 

Ceips Against Free Speech

 

(I was not a fan of what they said either, but come on....)

 

She is also a member of the South Carolina House Tourism Caucus

 

List of Legislators on SC Tourism Caucus

 

This is also quite interesting...... I wonder if the archeologist used a GPS to mark the location ......

 

Ceips Historical Site?

Edited by Cole Hard-cachers
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hey the law does not ban a map in finding a geo cache well I'll mess with those people and start using my map skills the government paid for, if this passes, we could be a map geo-cache state. So hope is not lost.

It bans letterboxing too, which like Geocaching without a GPS. BUT if you read the law there is a BIG loophole. Technically (at least the way I read it) there is nothing keeping you from using a GPS to find a letterbox. As long as there is no logbook or trinkets, its not a geocache according to the law and as long as you don't use a riddle or instructions to find it, its not a letterbox.

 

So, in theory, you can place a box with a stamp pad (no logbook or trinkets) and publish the coordinates on the Internet and have people use a GPS to find it and be in the clear.

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hey the law does not ban a map in finding a geo cache well I'll mess with those people and start using my map skills the government paid for, if this passes, we could be a map geo-cache state.  So hope is not lost.

It bans letterboxing too, which like Geocaching without a GPS. BUT if you read the law there is a BIG loophole. Technically (at least the way I read it) there is nothing keeping you from using a GPS to find a letterbox. As long as there is no logbook or trinkets, its not a geocache according to the law and as long as you don't use a riddle or instructions to find it, its not a letterbox.

 

So, in theory, you can place a box with a stamp pad (no logbook or trinkets) and publish the coordinates on the Internet and have people use a GPS to find it and be in the clear.

I thought the law defined Geocaching as hunting for "a container or other location" ? But I'm not sure any more...

 

In any case, if the cops bust you for walking around with a GPSr, how do they (or you) know in advance if the cache contains trinkets ?

 

Extending this logic, that would mean that Geocaching was OK as long as all the caches were (trinket-free) letterbox hybrids... or micros with only a log ?

 

This gets more confusing by the day...

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No loophole, Brian. Since the bill legally defines "geocaching" as:

(2) "Geocaching" means the activity of participants using a global positioning system (GPS) device to locate the geocache or other specific location

Using a GPS to find a letterbox in a historic area would be geocaching and would still be illegal. So would using it to find a place to eat, a museum, or Auntie Edna's house. As Pika put it:

The bill was amended to define geocaching to include the use of a GPS to find a location. So use of a GPS in other activities (such as surveying) to locate anything in one of the areas would be considered "geocaching" and be banned. I doubt that was the intent of the bill, but it is how it reads. Basically the amendment was probably drafted without much thought or knowledge of how it could be overbroad.
Edited by Mopar
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So would using it to find a place to eat, a museum, or Auntie Edna's house. As Pika put it:
The bill was amended to define geocaching to include the use of a GPS to find a location. So use of a GPS in other activities (such as surveying) to locate anything in one of the areas would be considered "geocaching" and be banned. I doubt that was the intent of the bill, but it is how it reads. Basically the amendment was probably drafted without much thought or knowledge of how it could be overbroad.

You forgot the biggest impact this "can't find a location with GPS" will have. No more commercial flights into, or over, SC. I doubt there are very many commercial aircraft that don't use GPS for navigation. :rolleyes:

 

(If someone else has already pointed this out, ignore this post - I haven't had time to get caught up on all the back log of messages I have)

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Why do people feel they can ignore the whole 'geocaching' part of the phrase and focus on the 'other location'?

 

I've heard this get stretched out to banning using a GPSr relating to biking, rental cars, state and national forest employees, GIS employees, surveyors, and now even commercial flights.

Come one folks. They are not going to ban those things.

They are not trying to nor want to.

It kinda makes us look like we have little common sense.

 

Focus on what they are trying to do and lets hear input relatd to that.

Early on there was alot of good discussion about gravesites, historic areas, and how they can be used for educational purposes when caching, etc.

Lets please not post stuff just to post stuff.

 

And looking for other ways to cache/letterbox/etc in those places if it gets banned will only make things worse for geocaching and letterboxing.

You'll give them reasons to want to ban it statewide.

 

I hope this bill dies and we can return to somewhat normal conditions.

 

Kenneth

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Speaking of tourism, I travel quite a bit to cache.

 

There have been a number of ecomonic studies done on the impact of birders travel into various areas. Once businesses realize how much money birders are spending in their area the result has been a proliferation of Birder festivals and commercially organized events all over the country.

 

Geocaching needs an ecomonic impact study.

 

Birders, by the way are frequently found in cemeteries, tramping around, peering up into the trees and skulking through the shubbery. I don't know of any place we have been banned.

 

NevaP

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Speaking of tourism, I travel quite a bit to cache.

 

There have been a number of ecomonic studies done on the impact of birders travel into various areas. Once businesses realize how much money birders are spending in their area the result has been a proliferation of Birder festivals and commercially organized events all over the country.

 

Geocaching needs an ecomonic impact study.

 

Birders, by the way are frequently found in cemeteries, tramping around, peering up into the trees and skulking through the shubbery. I don't know of any place we have been banned.

 

NevaP

Sadly, we have a problem that few want to address.

 

Birders tend to be rather quiet folks that go out to see some birds. They may skulk around in the brush as you say, but they tend not to take pictures about their skulking and then brag about it on the Internet. Some of us have done that. Sadly for those in SC that can control their behavior, those who cannot chose to do this in a state that feels it's history like other people feel their clothes.

 

It is easy to understand the reaction of the legislature there. You have a culture that values it's local history. You have a culture, much like ours in Nebraska, that doesn't get much attention or respect from the rest of the country, and you have jerks who call themselves geocachers acting like fools in their cemetaries, and posting about it on the net. The offended legislator just had to show the pics and read the posts to her committee members to get their votes. Promise you, if some one in the unicam got a bug about geocaching and had some posts and goofy pics, we would be hustling down to Lincoln to keep it from happening here.

 

As long as we don't want to form an accepted culture of behavior, geocaching will be vulnerable to this kind of threat. As I have said before, the game is like a teenager that is becoming an adult. If we won't control our behavior, someone else will.

 

In HAM radio, the first set of exams for license has basic radio procedure. Even though only a few of the procedures are actually legally required, all are taught equally as you don't want to be a "Lid". "Lids" are what people are called who can't conduct themselves properly on the air. No one wants to be one, and no one wants one of their students or friends to be one either. In that hobby, proper behavior is demanded. In geocaching, when people have brought this kind of thing up, usually they are slammed for "not letting people play the game the way they want to".

 

So we continue to have TB's that go missing for months, or disappear totally. We continue to have people trash caches with bad trades, we continue to have people do foolish stuff while caching, and we continue to have regulatory pressure on our game. But we all get to sit back cocksure in our satisfaction that we aren't being a buzzkill.

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Why do people feel they can ignore the whole 'geocaching' part of the phrase and focus on the 'other location'?

 

I've heard this get stretched out to banning using a GPSr relating to biking, rental cars, state and national forest employees, GIS employees, surveyors, and now even commercial flights.

Come one folks. They are not going to ban those things.

They are not trying to nor want to. ...

The reason is because opf how they have defined geocaching. They may not desire to ban those other activities, but that would be the result of this bill, if passed as currently written.

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On a humorous note, could you imagine a multi stage cache hunt which tries to take into account when it's legal and not legal to use the GPS?

 

From the parking coordinates, walk North to the large oak at the edge of the field. To avoid criminal prosecution, turn your GPS off and get out your compass. Proceed on a heading of 45 degrees across the field, and as you crest the hill look for the USGS benchmark on the rocks. Copy down the two dates listed on the benchmark for calculations to be performed later. To get to stage two travel due West, and look for the veranda in the park across the road. After you cross the road, you may turn your GPS back on.

 

Sorry, just blowing off some steam.

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From the parking coordinates, walk North to the large oak at the edge of the field. To avoid criminal prosecution, turn your GPS off and get out your compass. Proceed on a heading of 45 degrees across the field, and as you crest the hill look for the USGS benchmark on the rocks. Copy down the two dates listed on the benchmark for calculations to be performed later. To get to stage two travel due West, and look for the veranda in the park across the road. After you cross the road, you may turn your GPS back on.

 

Although this could make a new interesting twist to the game.

 

X

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....Geocaching needs an ecomonic impact study...

I worked to help coordinate one some time ago. Nothing ever came of it either because GC.com chose not to participate or the economist chose not to follow through. It's also possible that they could not come to terms.

 

Most states have the means to estimate the economic impact of tourist based activites such as geocaching or making day trips inside the state. Etc.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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From the parking coordinates, walk North to the large oak at the edge of the field. To avoid criminal prosecution, turn your GPS off and get out your compass. Proceed on a heading of 45 degrees across the field, and as you crest the hill look for the USGS benchmark on the rocks. Copy down the two dates listed on the benchmark for calculations to be performed later. To get to stage two travel due West, and look for the veranda in the park across the road. After you cross the road, you may turn your GPS back on.

Legal only if there isn't a stamp in it! Then you're letterboxing. :o

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It is easy to understand the reaction of the legislature there. You have a culture that values it's local history. You have a culture, much like ours in Nebraska, that doesn't get much attention or respect from the rest of the country, and you have jerks who call themselves geocachers acting like fools in their cemetaries, and posting about it on the net.

 

Give me a break. The worst thing shown in those photos was a guy laying on the ground in front of a headstone. Was it juvenile? Sure. Does it warrant the government stepping in and regulating a harmless activity? Get freakin' real. That sound you hear is Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Edward Rutledge and Richard Henry Lee rolling over in their graves.

Edited by briansnat
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Well now that everyone pointed out the loopsholes do not be surprised if they are fixed now. You all do not get the fact that more people read this then you realize.

 

Ever heard of "anything you can can and will be used against you"

Fixing the bill requires new amendments. That has not been done. I also don't really see loopholes. But I do see overbroad drafting.

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It is easy to understand the reaction of the legislature there. You have a culture that values it's local history. You have a culture, much like ours in Nebraska, that doesn't get much attention or respect from the rest of the country, and you have jerks who call themselves geocachers acting like fools in their cemetaries, and posting about it on the net. The offended legislator just had to show the pics and read the posts to her committee members to get their votes. Promise you, if some one in the unicam got a bug about geocaching and had some posts and goofy pics, we would be hustling down to Lincoln to keep it from happening here.

 

I doubt such a broad bill (or any bill) would be successful here. With many local agencies regulating caching, the unicameral would be unlikely to step on their toes. Next, the priority bill system here would make state regulation unlikely. Here many bills get cut once the priority system starts. If there was state wide regulation here, I would guess it would be quite limited to only cemetaries with a permission clause. That really would not bother me if narrowly drafted. Finally, I am unaware of any issues in Nebraska.

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No loophole, Brian. Since the bill legally defines "geocaching" as:
(2) "Geocaching" means the activity of participants using a global positioning system (GPS) device to locate the geocache or other specific location

But it defines a geocache as a container with a logbook.

Yes it does, but given the definition above for "geocaching," the activity doesn't need to involve finding a geocache since it might also involve locating some "other specific location."

Presumably that's to prohibit things like searching for virtual caches or others that don't involve a real physical geocache. But as worded currently it would also prohibit tourists from looking up restaurants/hotels/etc. on their GPS units anytime they're within one of the historic districts, cemetary areas, etc. that are covered by the proposed legislation. I'd also note that many people tracing family histories now make use of GPS coordinates for cemetaries where their ancestors may be buried.

 

I see this as an inherent problem with the proposed legislation and not just a poor choice of working. Geocaching can take many forms and as shown by virtual caches, it doesn't need to involve the finding of a physical container with an enclosed logbook. The only thing really required is the finding of a specified spot and checking the geographic coordinates.

But GPS is now routinely used for finding specified locations by tourists, surveyors, delivery drivers, emergency services, transportation companies, etc. Any legislation banning use of a GPS to find specific locations would therefore be highly disruptful and counterproductive.

 

Hopefully this bill will die quietly once enough SC legislators are informed about the nature of geocaching and realize that it's a harmless family activity that promotes educational and conservationist goals. Furthermore, by encouraging more visits to often forgotten and neglected locations it makes them less likely to be destroyed by either vandalism or by development.

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H.3777 is on the SC House calendar for TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 2005.

Thanks for keeping us informed. I E-mailed the tourism bureau last week with my concerns for this bill. I spend several thousand dollars per year in the Myrtle Beach area and wanted them to know that I combine caching with vacations. I also told them that if this passes, I will look elsewhere to spend my hard earned vacation dollars.

Thanks to all the SC cachers for taking time out from their lives to champion this cause.

 

Good Luck

 

David Green

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Another article in the newspaper on this ... article

 

And one from the archive. This article "Coordinated by the S.C. Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology (SCIAA) at the University of South Carolina, S.C. Archaeology Month includes tours, lectures, demonstrations, exhibits, canoe trips and excavations at historical sites and parks around the state.

 

Oct. 2 is Archaeology Discovery Day. Participants will learn how to use global positioning systems (GPS) and ground-penetrating radar (GPR) correctly to "read dirt" and find clues about the past or discover what kinds of weapons and tools were used by prehistoric Indians."

Edited by wkhaz
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I was in a conversation last week with another Geocacher which led me to believe that the NGS allows and encourages people to locate and report on benchmarks, and that the NGS might have even published a short statement to this effect.

 

Does anyone else have information on this?

 

(Edited to identify the right acronymed department).

Edited by TinSparrow
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I was in a conversation last week with another Geocacher which led me to believe that the NGS allows and encourages people to locate and report on benchmarks, and that the NGS might have even published a short statement to this effect.

 

Does anyone else have information on this?

 

(Edited to identify the right acronymed department).

You might try the benchmarking forum. If I recall there's a bookmarked thread.

 

Groundspeak has also created a forum for the National Map Corps - another NGS project.

 

From what I've seen the NGS seems to be very receptive of geocachers "recovering" (finding and reporting the condition) of benchmarks and other structures.

 

sd

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I was in a conversation last week with another Geocacher which led me to believe that the NGS allows and encourages people to locate and report on benchmarks, and that the NGS might have even published a short statement to this effect. 

 

Does anyone else have information on this?

I've been a member of the NGS for over 20 years. The NGS does not endorse or encourage the use (or non-use for that matter) of a GPS in locating cemeteries, homesteads, migration paths, or any of the like. They do however offer an incredible number of regional and national workshops where volunteer/unpaid speakers "suggest" tools like GPS's. It's the same story for "paper records" versus "PC-based" genealogy record keeping. Both are presented as an option.

 

We also need to recognize genealogists tend to be a little ... shall we say ... calmer? They also don't "rummage" if you will. It's probably not a fair comparison.

 

... and don't go there ... don't EVEN ask how I got involved in both! :lol:

 

Hope that helps ...

 

P.S. Just realized (as I went to the next message) you were talking about the other "NGS" ... nonetheless, now we know where the National "Genealogy" Society stands as well!

Edited by Team Tigerz
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I am curious to know if anybody here in Columbia,SC has contacted local media, and if so whether or not they have received a response. Based on posts on this thread, it appears the only attention we have received here was an article in The State Newspaper.

 

Please e-mail me any responses. Thanks!

 

J.

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I Think the best idea i mine: For, the state of south carolina change the name of Geo-caching to something else, Like say Skunk-Hunting, if you get stopped by the Anti-fun police with your GPS system in your hand, just tell them you are tracking skunks, being a ex-cop i would except that??, or maybe Panther-tagging, your following radio/satelite signals with your etrex. They'll never get you for that, with all the panther sightings in the state. the cache could be called a baiter for the panthers or skunks. there i solved the south carolina problem, Yet let just hope the law doesnt get passed, for the house schedule today 4-16-05, they got Medical nametags requirements, cockfighting, adoption incest, one percent sales tax, taxs on boats, a whole bunch of other stuff before they get to geo-caching, maybe we'll get lucky. :ph34r:

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