Disparity Trading

[+R&T4SURE]

Is it just me or has anyone else in the Northwest area noticed that your fellow geocachers seem to be taking good stuff out of your caches and leaving junk in its place? Example: I have initiated several different ammobox type caches with good items of some value. I have cached such items as mini flashlights, first-aid kits, travel bugs, "Where's George?" dollar bills, software, a working "Gameboy" unit, slingshots, cans of insect repellent, packages of incence, and an assortment of other handy and useful items. Upon return return, sometime later for cache maintainence, I find my caches have been plundered...not by non-cachers but by players who take the good stuff and leave junk in trade. I've found rubberbands, rocks, used up BIC lighters, old scratch-it tickets, broken toys, opened (unused) condoms, broken seashells, and lots of other useless and valueless crap!

C'mon guys, this is supposed to be a fun game where you help make it fun for others too. Don't rip-off the cache for your sole enjoyment! If you're going to take something, leave something of equal or greater value. Please, think of others and help make our game more fun.

[+Byron & Anne]

Don't worry. That's just the way things go. Relax and enjoy the game. Trade up. Ignor it. Complaining isn't going to change a thing. Etc. Etc. and Etc.

 

It's been said many many, .......... times before.

 

I for one think it's not only impossible to control other people's actions. Although many people think they can by yelling loud enough.

[+pdxmarathonman]

I agree with you in theory. People should trade up. But it won't always happen. It just won't. One comment I liked, that I'll paraphrase is: If everyone traded up everytime then eventually there'd be a Rolex in the cache

 

I try to stock my caches initially with pretty nice stuff. So, just feel good that folks are being rewarded by finding your cache.

 

I can't claim that I have ALWAYS traded up on every trade, but I try to add more value than I take from the game.

[+LindaLu]

One other thing to keep in mind is if you put in something that is worth $1.00 and the other person puts in something worth 99 cents, they will see that as basically "even"; then multiply this by many times and you get cache degradation. It happens, it's not necessarily malicious. Also, I know of many cachers that put things into caches and do not take anything out--they don't advertise their actions in a log, however. As a cache owner, you pretty much have to accept that you will need to re-stock the cache every once in a while. If you don't want disappointment, put in a few "good" items as prizes for the first few finders, and fill the rest up with McToys, because that's how it will end up eventually. Cheers!

[+QDman]

I agree with you in theory.  People should trade up. But it won't always happen. It just won't. One comment I liked, that I'll paraphrase is: If everyone traded up everytime then eventually there'd be a Rolex in the cache

Let's test that theory on a cache chosen at random. Oh, I don't know, maybe this one?

[+TotemLake]

At least they left junk. I had one that took and didn't leave anything. Best I could do was just shrug my shoulders and carry on.

[+pdxmarathonman]

I agree with you in theory.  People should trade up. But it won't always happen. It just won't. One comment I liked, that I'll paraphrase is: If everyone traded up everytime then eventually there'd be a Rolex in the cache

Let's test that theory on a cache chosen at random. Oh, I don't know, maybe this one?

You know it's not nice to take something out of your own cache.

 

Unless of course, you trade up

[+Defender1]

At least they left junk. I had one that took and didn't leave anything. Best I could do was just shrug my shoulders and carry on.

Good Point, but I think I would rather open the cache and see nothing than another plastic unicorn, or McToy, all though there both "extreamly" useful (say this last part in very sarcastic voice) I have two kids and dont need another plastic unicorn or mctoy, in fact my 7 year old is already burnt out on caching because of this and now is just content to go hiking. I really only now look for coins or sig items, and always leave a coin or sig item if I take one.

[+OccidentalErrant]

Hmm, While it is always good to find 'traded up items' in a cache.. with a pleasant surprise.. There are several factors at work here. Consider these:

 

1. Maybe the person that is picking and dropping can't afford anything nicer.

 

2. People may tend to go with the flow... (if they see junk in most of the caches that they have found, then that would be considered the 'norm' to them. Why bother with improving value of items traded?)

 

3. There are a lot of people still out there that want something for nothing.

 

I will admit that spending all the time, energy and gasoline expense to participate in Geocaching is frustrating when a person sees the same type of trades over and over again. That would indicate that maybe there needs to be a way to enforce guidlines a little better. There are also those that don't put value into caches because of the possibility of the cache being found by muggles. It is a vicious circle at this point.

[+1stimestar]

But I certainly do not think it is a bad idea to post a reminder to people occasionally. At least let people know that you notice...

[+Cav Scout]

I agree with R&T4SURE. My Caches have been victim to temptation and greed. I once left a brand new GEOCACHING.COM hat in one of my cache's for the next finder to take. I was upset with the junk that the finder left in place for the hat . I though wow that guy must of bought the trade item he left in my cache at the local flea market . Nothing worse that hiking to a cache way out in the woods only to find it filled with junk. But however I do understand that this sport in intended to share good experiences with friends and to have fun... Its not about trading. All I focus on is the personal geotrade items and sign the log and thats it.

[+Sagefox]

I agree with R&T4SURE. My Caches have been victim to temptation and greed.

I am definitely not criticizing this post. I find it useful for comment because it represents very commonly voiced concerns about geocaching.

 

After placing 68 regular container caches over a three-year period and watching most of them deteriorate to junk repeatedly I still cannot come to refer to the disparity in trading practices as "greed". I always have a negative reaction when I read this sentiment. It seems too harsh, inappropriate and unnecessary to me.

 

Geocaching is an interesting experiment and it shows that human nature still favors the hunter/gatherer practices imbedded in our genetic memory. It is clearly established that the quality of goods in a cache will degrade over time. Our personal caching experience will be more rewarding if we don't fret over this condition.

 

Nothing worse (than) hiking to a cache way out in the woods only to find it filled with junk.

 

But if we take that hike expecting to find a soggy, moldy collection of junk then we won't be disappointed when we do. With that small shift in expectations we can more fully enjoy the outdoor activity part of geocaching. We can also do something positive by simply removing the damaged goods and inappropriate items from caches we find.

 

But however I do understand that this sport (is) intended to share good experiences with friends and to have fun... Its not about trading.

 

That's it! The hunting rather than the gathering. If there is something good in the container when we get there then it is an added bonus.

 

I know that kids can get discouraged when they find caches in poor condition but it is inevitable that they will. For kids that are more interested in trading rather than hunting it might be better to visit newly placed caches.

[+Cav Scout]

Temptation and greed (genetic memory) is reallity in most cases. It's human nature in reference to the hunter gatherer. I say most cachers are good honest people. However when some people(who have nothing to trade) open a cache and find a sparkling new geocoin or a brand new item of some sort they tend to take that item and leave "nothing" or place what ever they have in the back seat of their car or in their pocket in the cache, ie., a pencil, piece of gum, tape measure... This is what I have experienced with caches.

Edited April 4, 2005 by Cav Scout

[+Kenr74]

I have been mostly finding caches and have only hid one. Although it started off with some pretty good stuff it dwindled down to McToy junk and finally disappeared completely two weeks ago. I was pretty upset that somebody stole the whole thing but the trading down thing isn't an issue for me.

 

I figure that I hid the cache with the intention of people exploring a new area. I don't care if they trade up, down, even, or not at all. If they find it that is what matters to me.

 

On the finding side of caching, I have never gone to a cache for the trading. The hunt is what matters so if I get there and it is full of junk it doesn't really matter.

 

If people are caching for the items they "find" they are in the wrong hobby.

[+willcall]

We can also do something positive by simply removing the damaged goods and inappropriate items from caches we find.

Nice thought -- CITO isn't just about the ground. It is probably a nice favor we can all start doing. Obviously, we don't want to treat everything as trash based solely on price or utility. Still, I'll admit that I've seen lots of undisputable trash inside of containers that I haven't been thoughtful enough to remove. I'll start doing it. Obviously, note to the owner if the cache gets too empty.

Edited April 4, 2005 by willcall

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

People have gotten upset about greedy cachers from day 1 I think.

 

I don't worry about it. I think some cachers look at caching as a way to go shopping for toys for their kids. The heck with it. I don't trade at all these days and a logsheet is all I need anymore.

[+richandsteph]

It has never been about the trading for me. I guess if you go for that point of view you will never be disapointed. I see caching as the thrill of the hunt and an excuse to get out and have a great time. I always try to trade nice items when I do want something like a TB out of the cache but otherwise we just sign the logbook and consider it a good trip. I guess it could be annoying if you are placing caches with great stuff because you are out the money up front but consider it a donation. Keep in mind that alot of cachers are kids who really enjoy the hunt and just because you consider something junk doesn't mean that it isn't a treasure for them.

[+Cav Scout]

Keep in mind that alot of cachers are kids

Is that a lot of cachers are kids at heart or age? Most of the cachers I see are older than me and I'm close to 40...

[+Byron & Anne]

. Keep in mind that alot of cachers are kids

Aint that the truth?

[+Mystery Ink]

Hi from California, we are new to caching, but are really hooked. One thing that really has us energized are sig items. One of our Bay area clebs put on a series of classes on making sig items and seems like a bunch here are getting into the spirit as his classes filled up right away. May take a bit to build our skill to his, but we have been placing some of both in caches. A toy or two for the little ones and a sig item for the older ones. At our first area event, we met a fellow that found a treasured item, but would not take because he felt he didn't have a worthy trade. Granted not everyone is like him, but made me feel proud to be part of such a group. Still am.

 

[MarcusArelius]

Most of the cachers I see are older than me and I'm close to 40...

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[+Riddlers]

Guess it comes down to what a cacher thinks is worth something. A rock collector would think a polished agate he spent hours looking for and working on was worth more than the compass that sold at the dollar store. But to another he took something useful and left a rock. I still have a hard time understanding the value of leaving a used golf ball but I just try not to let it dampen the fun of finding the cache.

[+Cardinal Red]

I have only hit 25 caches in the year I've been Caching. I must say that Southeast Pennsylvania seems to have a reasonably good trading ethic. I would like to get to the Northwest to experience what you are seeing. I personally hope to find interesting items, not expensive ones.

 

I did like this sentiment:

 

pdxmarathonman

I can't claim that I have ALWAYS traded up on every trade, but I try to add more value than I take from the game.

 

I don't play the TB Game for many reasons. But what about the people that Log Left TB, Took ITEM. What are they thinking? Are you seeing this also?

[+CENT5]

I don't play the TB Game for many reasons. But what about the people that Log Left TB, Took ITEM. What are they thinking? Are you seeing this also?

Is there something wrong with this? Many times I will drop a TB and either take nothing or perhaps an item if it catches my daughters eye. I usually figure adding a TB to a cache that has none is "added Value" as it attracts others to the cache etc. Am I looking at it incorrectly? I am after all new to the game and there are many things I have yet to learn.

[MarcusArelius]

I always view the travel bugs as a separate exchange. Since they do not belong to me I don't take anything unless there is another TB in the cache.

 

I also don't think that you need to leave anything when you pick up a travel bug if you are going to help it accomplish it's mission.

 

But I often will exchange bugs if I have one. If you had to leave one to take one new people would be left out.

 

When I first started I didn't know about the trade up rule. Of course if you think about it, it is common sense. Now I will usually take nothing but leave some small items. They're usually not worth much but they add some variety to the cache contents. I save the good trade items for caches that make me go WOW!

[+Cardinal Red]

CENT5 Posted on Apr 9 2005, 07:33 PM

Is there something wrong with this? Many times I will drop a TB and either take nothing or perhaps an item if it catches my daughters eye. I usually figure adding a TB to a cache that has none is "added Value" as it attracts others to the cache etc.

I am only a "guest" in the Northwest Forum (and I had to invite myself). I have already declared that I don't play the TB game. So this is not a sermon on how YOU should play the game. We have more than enough of that to go around.

 

My personal opinion is the "value" added by the TB is intangible. In a hypothetical situation: An owner places a new cache with a dozen trade items. Every odd numbered visitor drops off a TB and takes 1 item. Every even numbered visitor takes the TB and drops off nothing. After 24 visits the the Cache consists of a Pen and a Log Book. It's now a glorified Micro till it gets restocked.

 

Yes I know this isn't really how it works. Some players are very generous, especially when they notice cache contents are being depleated. I don't know your situation. Perhaps you need to play the game this way right now. You are the only one that can really judge how much value you CAN contribute, and how much value you ARE contributing.

 

If you and your Daughter are having fun, that's where the real "value" is.

[+NBJPoppa]

Regarding the "intangible" value of Travel Bugs.... (Don't get me wrong, this is just a place to start.)

 

I, on the other hand, do play "the TB game". On the other hand, I don't play the toy-trade game. When I first started geocaching, 18 months ago today (!), my two younger daughers and I found a Travel Bug in the first cache we managed to find. Helping that TB reach its goal seemed like a fun idea to me. Looking at the other stuff in a cache was only mildly interesting to me, though the kids did enjoy trading stuff for a while. I used to bring a bag of goodies to trade for the girls to use, but since they don't go with me as much now I've stopped doikng that. Every now and then, though, I think about bringing McD's toys to leave in caches -- just for some other kids.

 

My own thought is that a Travel Bug and/or Geocoin represents more "value" that a McDonald's toy, and often times more than any of the other items in the cache. I have found just over 30 USA Geocoins, and a few other kinds of coins as well. (A couple of Canadian geocoins, a couple of the GeocacheTreasures coins (they have aliens on the back side), a Pepper coin, an Oregon coin, a California coin... I think that's about it.) I've wondered about the coin collecting, but then I've rarely found non-trackable coins. Now while I've heard it said that a coin without a goal is free for the taking that somehow doesn't seem right to me. I now understand where that idea comes from. On the other hand, it makes more "sense" or those like the geocachetreasures coins, which (as far as I know) aren't trackable at all. If you can't track it, then how is one supposed to know to whom it belongs? It seems to me that it is reasonable to treat such items as trade items.

 

Although I've found some "junky" Travel Bugs even golf balls! I've also found some quite nice items. For example the Hawaiian Treasure TB has a beautifully carved ukelele (sp?) as a rider. I've also found several instances where the rider attached to the TB was changed. This is quite obvious when there is a photograph posted on the web site. (I recall quite clearly the "Giles the Watcher" TB, which had a small "action figure" attached in the photo, but I found a plastic key attached advertising some local business.)

 

Re trading trackable items for untrackable items:

 

I personally don't consider them to be in the same "class" of items. TBs aren't "swag". I normally try to trade trackable-for-trackable, usually on a 1-for-1 basis. So far I've only found one "Traveler Tag" item, but since that isn't tracked the same way, I didn't count it as a TB in the TB swap, but neither did I keep it. I logged my find and drop, and that was that.

 

So, what are these other people thinking? I've noticed that there are lots of folks out there who do not know how to log a TB find and/or drop. Some folks seem to pick up a TB and they just keep it! To these folks, TBs seem to be just more of the "swag".

 

Why do these things happen? I suppose some of it is covetousness, but I'll bet that sometimes it is due to accidents. I've repaired a couple of TBs, one of which broke in my possession. I know that sometimes it is hard to get a kid to "let go" of something, so maybe some parents have swapped TB riders for that reason. I'm sure that there are lots of reasons. From what I've heard, TBs go missing quite frequently. Several that I have found have later been picked up by folks who subsequently dropped out of the game. I know of several TBs that "vanished" when the cache they were in was taken.

 

I suppose we could also complain about the swag that is lost when a cache is muggled. Yeah, I know, it's part of the game, but it still is costly to the cache owner.

 

Oh well. That's more than enough for now.

Edited April 11, 2005 by NBJPoppa

[+OccidentalErrant]

There is one school of thought... that I am going to now.. That schools curriculum describes geocaching as a game and then a sport. The curriculum also attempts to define the purpose of the game/sport. Question: What is the purpose of geocaching? Is the purpose to locate a position on the globe using a GPSr.? (or) Is the purpose to find treasure? What reasons are there treasures hidden in geocaches and for what purpose? Should we go back to the beginnings of the activity to find the answer?

 

Questions to ponder. Anybody up for homework?