Station Marks And Reference Marks

[+Red_Cedars]

I've just started benchmark hunting and find it very rewarding, but have a quick question.

 

On two different occasions, I've found the Station Mark accompanied by a reference mark or two. In the first instance, the reference mark had its own listing. In the second, the reference marks were lumped in with the Station Mark listing. Is there a criteria for determining when a reference mark gets its own listing?

 

Here's links to the marks in question:

 

Station Mark with reference mark listings included: Woodinville 2

 

Station Mark listing without reference marks: View 2

Reference Mark listing for the above: View 2 RM

 

R_C

[grannyoldr]

On an earlier thread someone suggested it was if they reference marks were also surveyed to a high degree of accuracy. If they were actually surveyed then they usually got PID's, and if they were just measured out they did not. I can't find the thread now though.

[Z15]

From my observations I find that when the RM has its own PID and is published its because of 2 things; 1. An elevations was determined for the mark, either by leveling or by trigonometric observations. 2. RM the only mark on which they could build the tower under subsequent surverys.

 

FWIW

 

SY3484''RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1969 (NET)

The Survey party chiefs ignitals NET on that datesheet are same as one in my area (Michigan). The name is Norman E. Taylor, I found that name in some old paper datasheets.

 

 

Here is example

RK0491 DESIGNATION - MESNARD

RK0491 PID - RK0491

RK0491 STATE/COUNTY- MI/MARQUETTE

RK0491 USGS QUAD - MARQUETTE (1975)

gap

RK0491''DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1955 (NET)

Edited March 28, 2005 by Z15

[evenfall]

I am familiar with the Puget Sound SY series Stations, I have crossed a number of Reference Marks which were included in level lines that passed near to pre existing triangulation Stations. I have also seen a couple RM's that have been GPS'd and given some data that way too... There are stations which still exist as old as 1854 when the first Coast Survey was done in the area, if you know where to look and are properly outfitted. The hilly nature of that area was cause for a lot of leveling and the Puget sound with all it's coastline created a literal plethora of triangulation... Heavy forestation and limited sight distances were a factor as well. There are literally a ton of Stations all over Puget Sound... It is as close to a target rich environment as there is... Back 50 years ago when a lot of industry was still extant there were even tons of stacks, towers and flagpole landmarks all over the place... A good study of the stations can tell you a lot about how the Seattle area has been changing, in the post industrial age, and I am sure it is true of many other places...

 

Good luck on the hunt! It is like a box of Chocolate... you never know...

 

Rob

[+BuckBrooke]

Here's a complicated situation, in Tucumcari, NM, AE3218 CARI 3 RM 4, where a station and 2 reference marks are all entered as PIDs. Then, the station and a RM are destroyed (supposedly) and a new station, and azimuth mark and new RM, are added as PIDs. The second station is destroyed and a 3rd station, with 1 of 2 more Reference marks and an azimuth mark are added with PIDs, for a total of 9 PIDs for this station for 10 marks.

 

I searched New Mexico for RM 4 (although you can go higher, there's a couple of RM 6s in the state, even GORDO 4 RM 6, though only GORDO is listed, not GORDO 2 and GORDO 3, there's a story).

 

After a minute's more searching, I found BR0964 CHESTER 3 RM 10 in Georgia, with 8 of the marks in the series (station, RM and AZ) having PIDs. Goodness knows how many marks there actually are. There's an RM 10 in Connecticut.

Edited March 30, 2005 by BuckBrooke

[evenfall]

Buck,

 

While I haven't time at the moment to look at what you have got there I can tell you that when this sort of thing happens, in my experience it is likely a location that was or is First Order triangulation, It is Likely in some cases where a Level line for establishing vertical control may intersect it as well, and the location is important to many many other surveys.

 

I have found this to happen on property where a commanding view is often available. It may well be on property that is also privately owned and being changed from time to time, often because of the same commanding view, and so more stations are monumented and resurveyed to keep the location intact. Sometimes the old RM's are redefined to help aid in finding the new monumentation, other times they add new RM's because the old ones were lost as well and as you have seen, it can get to be a lot of data for just one place. It is not always easy to sort through.

 

I know of several First Order stations in the Puget Sound area which have gone through this sort of ordeal. They are interesting studies unto themselves. Enjoy!

 

Rob

[+Red_Cedars]

There are stations which still exist as old as 1854 when the first Coast Survey was done in the area, if you know where to look and are properly outfitted. . . .

 

There are literally a ton of Stations all over Puget Sound... It is as close to a target rich environment as there is...

I've got my eye on a mark first placed in 1888 that looks promissing. I'll have to make a special trip out for it, though, as opposed to my more "casual" after-work hunts.

 

 

And yeah, so I'm learning about the "target rich" thing. I first got interested by looking online for benchmarks I'd already found (generally by walking by them and saying "Oh look! A benchmark!" :? ). But now I have a searchable database available for all those that haven't been found. I'm like a kid in a candy store.

 

R_C

[evenfall]

R_C,

 

Soon you will be driving around, and thinking of all the ones you know you are driving by, and the status you found them in, if they were gone, Hard to find, if they were landmarks now long since gone, and many are... many are still there or seem like it but may be not the original, some are famous, and in great locations, you will go to Neighborhoods, Great Views, Poor views... Places you might have never gone otherwise, and that is the reason, well one of them, that I like to go.

 

Why Not? Enjoy the challenges!

 

Rob

[+Red_Cedars]

R_C,

 

Soon you will be driving around, and thinking of all the ones you know you are driving by, . . .

Soon?

 

R_C

[+Red_Cedars]

Okay, new question, same topic. This morning I went hunting for SY3483 even though the description says it's pretty well buried. I was planning on contenting myself with finding one or more of the Reference Marks listed in the description and did so. I only found RM 1. Do I log this with NGS as a "found" if I didn't actually dig up the monument? My guess is no, but do I then tell them I found the Reference Mark? And if so, how? I logged it at geocaching.com as a "note". Do they have such a thing at the NGS site?

 

Thanks,

R_C

[evenfall]

R_C,

 

Sorry, No Notes at the NGS site, and besides, they are looking for the Station Mark. There is no useful survey data ascribed to the RM on this one, It is simply there to help you find the REAL station. :-) Knowing an RM's status would be inconsequential to them if they do not have specific data ascribed to them.

 

Interestingly, this is a rare occasion where a Third order Station Had an Azimuth Mark. 2 RM's on Third Order Control is a rare thing too. It is common for them to have no RM's or maybe one.

 

The way I see it, you have some options, and challenges, if you like that sort of thing. This one is not a slam dunk easy station so you can skip it because it is difficulty, But I would not file a not found with NGS because you did not actually try to find the actual station. If you file a Not Found, it will in effect cause no one else to look ever again, and it very well may be there just as the Geodetic Surveyors say, Buried under at least a foot of soil.

 

It is sort of a not found for you at geocaching if you never go back, because you attempted and decided not to find it. But your note does say what you did found, and your note will be a place holder for you while you decide if you are done looking.

 

If You want it, Build a Probe and bring a long Tape measure and a shovel, get permission if you need to and try to find all for monuments. 3 out of 4 were found in previous recoveries, and for all we know until we try, the azimuth mark may be there too. It is true that just because a previous party did not find something, that you may find it anyway. Once you hunt, reporting whatever you do find is worth your while if that is what you want to do, but for now, the last recovery of the station is the best information going.

 

Good Luck!

 

Rob

[+Red_Cedars]

This one is not a slam dunk easy station so you can skip it because it is difficulty, But I would not file a not found with NGS because you did not actually try to find the actual station. If you file a Not Found, it will in effect cause no one else to look ever again, and it very well may be there just as the Geodetic Surveyors say, Buried under at least a foot of soil.

Hi Rob,

 

Oh and absolutely! My unwillingness to dig up private property without permission certainly isn't a "Not Found" by any stretch. I see no reason to believe that the station mark isn't there lurking beneath the soil as stated. I just feel like I kissed my sister is all.

 

But I'm curious as to RM2 as well. Do you think that the cone and rotten stakes were placed (well, not rotten at the time, I'm sure) as a help to find RM2? Is that the sort of thing a survey team might do? They're certainly in the right area. I'm also wondering if they may have been placed by the landscapers. Admittedly, that'd be awfully concientious of them. It seems to me that area, at least, I'd like to "probe further".

 

Besides, if I find the second Reference Mark, I'm sure it'd help in narrowing the search for the Station Mark itself, should I choose to pursue it.

 

Thanks for the input,

R_C

[mloser]

R_C

 

Your Woodinville mark is indeed on the other side of the road, as the road has been moved at least once since it was set. As I described for other marks, I determined this from the topo maps and aerial photos of the area. If you plan on submitting this find to the NGS you may want to remeasure to the road and submit a new description.

 

As for SY3483, the description does say it is in the yard so it may well be. Maybe I am a bit bold on this front, but I would ask permission to uncover the mark. Here is an example of three marks I dug out from someone's lawn, with permission, and in fact, with their help BOWER. When I dig out a mark I promise to put things back as I found them, and very carefully cut a flap in the grass so that I can fold it back, remove as little soil as possible, then take my pic, and replace everything as it was. By keeping the grass attached I lessen the chances that it will come loose and die.

 

I will add that I DID dig one up that was 12 inches deep but it was on a farm property and the owners didn't care about how nicely I did it. (KW3099 but my cam battery died that day so no pics).

 

Something I also do, and I think most other benchmarkers do, is to probe for the benchmark carefully before digging. If you have both reference marks you can measure from each and use a probe such as a long screwdriver to find the concrete monument underground, then to probe in detail and determine where the center of it is so you can dig as accurately as possible and mess up as little lawn as possible.

 

In once case I submitted a report to the NGS based entirely on probing, as I could not find the homeowners and I was not in my home area. I was sure what I was probing for was the station and wanted to reverse, or at least remove some doubt, from a previous Not Found status, so that what Evenfall mentioned in this thread would not occur--once the station is marked Not Found nobody looks for it.

 

I would add that you are going about this the right way R_C--cautiously and carefully, thinking about what you are doing and being considerate and thoughtful. Keep up the good work.

 

Matt

[+Red_Cedars]

As for SY3483, the description does say it is in the yard so it may well be.

 

Something I also do, and I think most other benchmarkers do, is to probe for the benchmark carefully before digging. If you have both reference marks you can measure from each and use a probe such as a long screwdriver to find the concrete monument underground, then to probe in detail and determine where the center of it is so you can dig as accurately as possible and mess up as little lawn as possible.

Hi Matt,

 

Yeah, after re-reading the description, I think the station mark is closer to the road than the yard. Ya'd think I'd have figured that out by the arrow on RM1. Duh.

 

Given that this mark is supposed to be just four inches buried, I think this might very well be a good one for me to pursue with probing. To get me started, I went to the Home Depot and got a 100' tape. And I've been saving a broken, long-handled screw driver without knowing why until now.

 

Thanks for the input,

R_C

[mloser]

Sorry for all the armchair benchmark hunting but it has been raining here for the past few days and I was trapped, so I guess helping someone else is better than nothing.

 

For a probe I use a camp fork I got at Walmart and broke the fork part off. It wasn't my idea but I forget who here proposed it. It is long enough that I don't have to bend down to probe, but it is a bit too thin and tends to bend. I am on fork number 5 right now, but since they cost about $4 each I consider it a good investment.

 

Check out some of the other equipment threads here to see what else would be of value. In addition to my tape I got a few large nails (spikes basically) and spray painted them orange. I use them to anchor my tape and to mark intersection points to help me measure. Evenfall's markers are probably better than mine.

 

Good luck on the hunting. I wish I had known you and Evenfall were in Seattle a year ago when I was there for a few days. I picked up some benchmarks but was limited by my time there and need to attend business meetings.

[evenfall]

Yeah Matt,

 

I am way High Tech on you this time! Not really, you have me beat by miles! I went to a Hardware store and bought a 3 foot 1/4 rod and ground a point on one end with a bench grinder. Bent the other side into a handle on my bench vice... I think I may duct tape a softer handle on it though. Heheheh The sticky tape and bent steel solution. My Tape anchors are a couple of Stanley screwdrivers I bought at a Pawn shop for pocket change! I mean why lose something spendy? I am basically using junk. Er, Old Junk.

 

Yup, that old broken screwdriver now has a home R_C! Gotta love that Low Budget action!

 

I think you have me beat on the $25 fork collection! :-D

 

But really, I think you should use what feels good in your hand and works for the way you like to hunt. BDT uses a piece of bent wire for a probe. Ultimately, what ever works for you is what works period.

 

Rob

Edited April 4, 2005 by evenfall

[mloser]

Rob,

 

I was talking about chaining pins, which you had mentioned in the equipment thread that is still active here, but couldn't remember the correct name of them when I was typing.

 

But I see you don't use them for your hobby--just old screwdrivers.

 

Hey, we each have our own methods. I am pretty happy with the stuff I use--the only pricey thing is my GPSr. I got the most expensive (consumer!) one I could afford. Not because I thought it would be better, but because I love the technology and wanted the coolest one.

 

Matt

[evenfall]

Hey Matt,

 

I do have a set of Chaining Pins, They were $20 for the set at Forestry Suppliers, but I have found that the handle of a screwdriver is a lot easier and comfortable on my hands when trying to push them through Rocky or Hard soil conditions, so my go to tool is the screwdriver. I don't even mind tapping them in with a hammer if needed. I reach for it first because it offered the most pleasant experience and seems to work about as well. I just stab the end of the loop on the tape through the screwdriver and on into the ground. It will not come loose unless the screwdriver pulls out.

 

If you think the chaining pins are cool, buy them. I use them on a long stretch of measuring where it may be to my benefit to leave a place marker for that measurement it the ground for a bit while I determine other solutions. In most cases the measurements are not so distant that I need to break chain, which is to put a place holder in the ground so I can move the measuring device, (in the old days, a chain) up to the next stretch to be measured. Sometimes what I begin with a screwdriver, which I may replace with a chaining pin as well, but for the most part, the Screwdrivers get the most use from me, I just like the feel of them better, so that is what I use. I suppose R_C and his longer screwdriver may see a dual duty tool as both a probe and a chaining pin, and how cool is that? :-)

 

I guess we all develop a fondness for a tool or a method which works for us, and even something which is supposed to be an improvement doesn't always bring the feel good feeling that we thought it would... And so it goes. I started with screwdrivers years ago, and I still like them :-) Some people like hunting these with a Palm Pilot and a GPS, But my favored way is the Datasheet on Paper, a tape and a screwdriver. Mostly :-)

 

Rob

[Bill93]

My probe is the handle from a broken weed cutter that friend gave me. It resembles a golf club shaft, with a rubber grip. I filed lines around it to mark 6, 12, and 18 inch depths. The only problem is that I need something more than the handle to put my weight on to get to the deeper regions, and am contemplating how to attach a T handle to it. Other people have suggested an electric fence post, available at all farm supply stores. They are around 3/8 or 1/2 inch diameter and come with a place to put your foot.

[evenfall]

Bill,

 

I smile at your thoughts, I saw one at a farm supply while back and thought the same thing, but a probe with foot assist is likely to be the kind of probe that could do damage. Can you imagine a 250 lb jump on that probe because there is something hard down there? Yikes!

 

I think if we hit something hard, we carefully dig to learn what it is, not see if we can force our way though it. I am not saying you would but Murphy's law uniformly applies. Someone could, and we don't want that.

 

When I have to help locate a Fiber optic conduit, the Industry procedure is to survey out the area where the plan says it is supposed to be, then a call a Locator. That person comes out and meets with me. I show them where I want them to look and they home in with their equipment and will flag it out with paint or sticks, However I ask. Then I call a Vac Truck outfit to come in on the sticks and suck the dirt out of the ground in little holes until the can see the actual pipe. Then we take 2 inch PVC pipe cut to sit on top of the buried conduit and stick a foot or so out of the ground so we can tape measure from the conduit to the top of the pipe to the buried Conduit, and then from the top of the pipe to the ground. The difference will tell us how deep we can safely dig with a machine without hitting the conduits.

 

Is it this big of a deal? Yup! Fiber Optic outages are some of the costliest mistakes in the world. When you are digging near the Main Trunk line that services the Microsoft Campus in Redmond Washington, Like I was, the bill for that outage could be even higher, and we just don't want to know how high. I fear the difference is between being fired and Summarily Shot in Public in that case.

 

"we interrupt to bring you breaking news... The MSN Network is down this eve because a couple guys dug a hole in Redmond Washington today, where upon they ran away and were last seen screaming wildly that they had to hide before someone handed them the bill. Police Have confiscated all their equipment and will sell it all at auction to help cover the costs of repair and the outage. It may take days to get the internet back to normal, News at 11..."

 

Please do not think I am kidding. It does seem humorous, if only it really were... :-D

 

Then there are all the other underground utilities, and some have no other locator than "Be careful!"

 

I know professional, Conscientious Excavator hands who can dig up anything without even trying... They have a disadvantage of a lot of power and no feeling when they dig so it sometimes happens. Even when as careful as we can be and we try as we may, the locates are not always right, or something else happens. But we benchmark hunters can be careful, we just probe and dig by hand and carefully, and though it is true we may dig a few empty holes and don't go as deep, it is better than forcing a foot assisted probe through a plastic, yellow, medium pressure Natural Gas line. Forcibly probing a direct buried Electrical wire could be our last act on Earth. It is good to remember that not every thing ever buried was buried the way we think it should have been. Many things are closer to the surface than we think, or would like to believe.

 

Enjoy!

 

Rob

[Bill93]

I do think a lot about what may be under there and only use a garden trowel and hand powered probe if it is a developed area or I'm not pretty sure where the utilities aren't.

 

But I also do some of my looking in rural areas and if there are no signs for buried utilities anywhere for a half mile each way along the road right of way, no phone splicing pedestals on that side of the road, overhead power wires, etc, it's reasonably safe to probe. Also, triangulation stations tend to be in corn fields, and I'd like to be able to get down 18 inches and check on some of them.

[mloser]

That is one of the reasons I have stuck with my camp fork probe. It is thin, so I don't need a lot of pressure to push it in the ground and if it hits something even partially unyielding it bends.

 

Rob, I didn't say I really wanted chaining pins. I just recalled you, and someone else, mentioning them before. They would be cool, but my spikes are fine. And cheap--about 40 cents each.