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Geocaching May Be Outlawed In South Carolina


wkhaz

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good luck to the s.c. cachers in fighting this legislation. living near the nc/sc border i've done quite a bit of caching in the state, and indeed am a member of the sc geocachers assoc. the caches in sc are some of the best i've hunted, have taken me to many places i'd otherwise never have seen, have educated and entertained me. it will be a shame if this ill advised legislation is passed. i'll certainly be following along via the scga. -harry

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Crap! I just heard about this and you guys can crack all the jokes you want, tell us you agree with SC for doing this or whatever, BUT, when it's your state the tune will change. If we can stop it here other cachers in other states will have some thing to fall back against in defending their rights.

 

X

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If cache owners respect the land why try to control them? In any event it can not be good. :P

You are so right. Think about how this law singles out a particular group, namely us. I think we all agree that archeological sites and historic sites need to be protected. But this law paints too wide of a stroke!

 

If the other public is allowed to wander through a historic site pursueing whatever activies they do then geocachers should not be shut out. I have seen kids playing on and climbing all over cival war era cannons, people climbing and sitting on historic fences etc. and people having picnics in graveyards. It would be hard to convince me that geocachers have any more of an impact.

 

Most sensitive sites are already closed off by order of park superintendent or chief ranger etc. These sites are also protected by federal law that makes it a felony to damage or cause damage to a culteral site.

 

This law would only serve to exclude a certain group (us) from areas where others are able to pursue whatever activities they wish.

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If cache owners respect the land why try to control  them?  In any event it can not be good.    :P

You are so right. Think about how this law singles out a particular group, namely us. I think we all agree that archeological sites and historic sites need to be protected. But this law paints too wide of a stroke!

 

If the other public is allowed to wander through a historic site pursueing whatever activies they do then geocachers should not be shut out. I have seen kids playing on and climbing all over cival war era cannons, people climbing and sitting on historic fences etc. and people having picnics in graveyards. It would be hard to convince me that geocachers have any more of an impact.

 

Most sensitive sites are already closed off by order of park superintendent or chief ranger etc. These sites are also protected by federal law that makes it a felony to damage or cause damage to a culteral site.

 

This law would only serve to exclude a certain group (us) from areas where others are able to pursue whatever activities they wish.

This is the key. One person in this thread accused geocachers of "tromping over cemeteries, archeological and historic properties". Why is it that geocachers are "tromping over" while other visitors and users aren't.

 

Why should it be illegal for me to stick a micro next to George Washington's headquarters, while thousands of people walk through the 250 year old building every year. Are a few dozen cache visitors more of a threat to the structure than thousands of "legit" visitors?

 

As Ayn Rand once said:

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only real power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."

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There is a real danger in this to all of us. If the law gets passed the news will be published in professional journals and you could expect that similiar bills would appear in other states. I would not be willing to give them an inch.

Whether you agree with them or not, organizations like the NRA, which represent minority groups on specific issues, learned long ago to resist ANY legislation which restricts your rights. In this arena, trying to be reasonable makes you a target ... sad but true. Geocaching is a great way to direct folks to historic sites, and make more people aware of these sites and the importance of preservation. If the cache is placed responsibly, it does no damage at all. Some of the caches I have done took me to old cemeteries. Often these old cemeteries suffer from neglect and vandalism, and I have seen signs that those who visited shortly before me had set up fallen headstones. Are geocachers a threat to these sites, or a hope?

 

But on a different perspective, I enjoyed geocaching at Hilton Head last summer. One of the caches took me to an old cemetery that was left in the middle of a high rise development. Where was the SC lawmakers concern for preservation when this was done? I suspect that lawmaker's concern with preservation may be inversely proportional to the finances of the folks who are restricted.

 

If they restrict geocaching in SC, I will be more likely to vacation in FL or NC. But then, Hilton Head is getting crowded anyway, maybe they don't care.

 

FWIW,

CharlieP

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:P

 

SC cachers should band together and fight this. It always starts in one state. Then it spreads. There is more of a threat from litterbugs, theives, and people who just dump crap anywhere, and vandalize and spraypaint anything.

 

I'll be damned if geocachers (and historical site seekers like myself) don't provide some sort of covert security and cleaning force for historical and memorial sites everywhere.. Just take a look at the CITO events. In my short time here, i've found that cachers are benign at the very least, if not beneficial.

Edited by Marcie/Eric
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Hmmm. This thread has me thinking. At first I thought it was probably a good idea -- I mean, geocaching should be about respecting the environment (historical sites, archeaological sites, cemetaries). Then, after reading the thread, it occured to me that there may be some value in considerate, thoughtful caches in these areas.

 

It seems to me that at some point there has been some cache that has annoyed someone, caused damage, or otherwise caused problems.

 

I would encourage the local cachers to take a co-operative (but firm) attitude with the local legislators in order to explain and promote geocaching benefits to these sensitive areas. Conflict will just get their backs up and they are probably annoyed at caching for some reason (hence the bill)

 

Good luck!

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Typical of a "red state".

Typical of 'your country'.

Honestly....how do comments like these contribute to the conversation? Why don't you just agree to take it to the bike racks and fight it out there?

 

Come to think of it .... I can see the headlines now! "BatBoy battles the Devil's Head!"

 

What are your thoughts on the topic at hand?

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Typical of a "red state".

Typical of 'your country'.

Honestly....how do comments like these contribute to the conversation?

My point exactly. I was being sarcastic.

 

What are your thoughts on the topic at hand?

That it should be in the regional forum.

 

That was sarcasm too. I agree with what briansnat said.

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Not being a citizen of South Carolina I don't have any influence with the legislation. So I sent the following e-mail to the tourism board.

 

Good morning,

 

I am a geocacher/historic cemetery buff that has been planning on visiting South Carolina for a vacation of looking at historic cemeteries and geocaching. I recently read that the South Carolina House is considering a bill that would " make it unlawful for a person to engage in the activity of geocaching or letterboxing in a cemetery, archeological sites, or on the historic properties of the State." As a potential tourist to your state I would like to suggest that you contact your Representatives and inform them how detrimental House bill H. 3777 could be to tourism in your state. Thanks for your time in looking into this matter.

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My point exactly. I was being sarcastic.

 

What are your thoughts on the topic at hand?

That it should be in the regional forum.

 

That was sarcasm too. I agree with what briansnat said.

Okay -- just remember that sarcasm is difficult to convey in text -- it ussually requires non-verbal ques or tonal inflection in the voice in order to be taken as such. Also, given that you are a non-national of the United States (as I am), it may be taken more as an attack than as a sarcastic remark.

 

As for the Regional Forum comment -- I somewhat agree, but as the posts above indicate, there is the challenge that the results will be published nationally and may result in more wide-spread adoption. Sometimes a small "fire" needs the attention of the community at large.

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I did a little checking. The sponser of this bill is a member of the Beaufort Historic Foundation. I did a search of caches for zip code 29901 (Beaufort). Seems like this bill could have a major impact on this area, especially if Hunting Island is considered a historic property. I did notice there is a prolific cacher doing a series of cemetery caches, they look pretty cool a sort of puzzle multi cache. I wonder if this is what started it all.

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Not being a citizen of South Carolina I don't have any influence with the legislation. So I sent the following e-mail to the tourism board.

 

Good morning,

 

I am a geocacher/historic cemetery buff that has been planning on visiting South Carolina for a vacation of looking at historic cemeteries and geocaching. I recently read that the South Carolina House is considering a bill that would " make it unlawful for a person to engage in the activity of geocaching or letterboxing in a cemetery, archeological sites, or on the historic properties of the State." As a potential tourist to your state I would like to suggest that you contact your Representatives and inform them how detrimental House bill H. 3777 could be to tourism in your state. Thanks for your time in looking into this matter.

Webscouter,

That was a terrific idea! I just finished sending off my own similarly worded note to the tourism board.

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I'm curious, if a cacher is going through a cemetary to a historic grave and takes information off a tombstone that leads to a physical cache that is off the cemetary property. What is the differance from a regular history buff going to a cemetary to visit the tomb of some historic figure from history?

 

What is the purpose of a cemetary? I'm sure one is not entombed with the intention of never be visited. The law targets "geocaching" by name, but there are internet sites that list gravesites of famous departed. Am I guilty of breaking the law if I get the location of a famous SC historic figure off the internet and go visit his grave?

 

As stated earlier, there are laws preventing the desecration of these sites. Why write a law targetting one activity, when it's not the activity they want to prevent, but the possible damage that could be caused by any of a hundred activities.

 

Frank

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I'm curious, if a cacher is going through a cemetary to a historic grave and takes information off a tombstone that leads to a physical cache that is off the cemetary property. What is the differance from a regular history buff going to a cemetary to visit the tomb of some historic figure from history?...

This would be allowed if the measure were to pass. The proposed legislation defines geocaching as 'hiding the container'. As long as the container is not within one of the forbidden areas, it would be legal.

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Not being a citizen of South Carolina I don't have any influence with the legislation. So I sent the following e-mail to the tourism board.

 

Good morning,

 

I am a geocacher/historic cemetery buff that has been planning on visiting South Carolina for a vacation of looking at historic cemeteries and geocaching. I recently read that the South Carolina House is considering a bill that would " make it unlawful for a person to engage in the activity of geocaching or letterboxing in a cemetery, archeological sites, or on the historic properties of the State." As a potential tourist to your state I would like to suggest that you contact your Representatives and inform them how detrimental House bill H. 3777 could be to tourism in your state. Thanks for your time in looking into this matter.

This is an excellent way to make the voices of non residents heard. Unfortunately lawmakers tend to ignore non consituents.

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If cache owners respect the land why try to control  them?  In any event it can not be good.    :D

You are so right. Think about how this law singles out a particular group, namely us. I think we all agree that archeological sites and historic sites need to be protected. But this law paints too wide of a stroke!

 

If the other public is allowed to wander through a historic site pursueing whatever activies they do then geocachers should not be shut out. I have seen kids playing on and climbing all over cival war era cannons, people climbing and sitting on historic fences etc. and people having picnics in graveyards. It would be hard to convince me that geocachers have any more of an impact.

 

Most sensitive sites are already closed off by order of park superintendent or chief ranger etc. These sites are also protected by federal law that makes it a felony to damage or cause damage to a culteral site.

 

This law would only serve to exclude a certain group (us) from areas where others are able to pursue whatever activities they wish.

This is the key. One person in this thread accused geocachers of "tromping over cemeteries, archeological and historic properties". Why is it that geocachers are "tromping over" while other visitors and users aren't.

 

Why should it be illegal for me to stick a micro next to George Washington's headquarters, while thousands of people walk through the 250 year old building every year. Are a few dozen cache visitors more of a threat to the structure than thousands of "legit" visitors?

 

As Ayn Rand once said:

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only real power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."

I seriously doubt that 'other' visitors to the Great State of South Carolina's cemeteries, historic sites and archelogical treasures are rooting thru the bushes looking for a camouflaged 35mm film canister or disturbing the natural setting by creatively hiding large tupperware containers or ammo boxes in these locations that many South Carolina residents just might consider sacred and above such actions. The tunnel vision that at some times is induced by following that thing in your hand just might, on the rare occasion, lead you onto ground that most folk would consider 'out of bounds'. When enough participants engage in an activity at a given location, that rare event tends to become not so rare. I think that the people of the Great State of South Carolina thru their duly elected representatives are taking measures that they think stand the best chance of safe guarding and preserving their treasures. I would suspect that there are already existing laws that prohibit the little tykes from crawling all over the state's monuments. Short of posting guards next to every monument in the entire state, no law or regulation can totally prevent such abuse of the monuments in South Carolina or any where else. However I'd wager that the threat of such laws being enforced by the occasional bored park ranger, with nothing better to do than his job, who just might accidently wander by such monuments.....tends to limit their abuse.

 

And trust me dude, I manage to somehow conduct my life danged near ever day, despite the dire rantings of your boy Annie there, without attracting the disfavor of the local branch of the KGB.

Edited by Team cotati697
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Of the cemetary caches I've went on only ONE was actually within the cemetery grounds. The others have been outside the fence. Those gravesites were also abandoned. Except for one in Charleston which was a virtual cache site. I found the site VERY interesting and yes while I was there someone (not a CACHER) had there kids sight seeing and the little tykes (monsters) were climbing all over the tombstones and running around on TOP of the graves like it was a playground. I knoe that this is the parents responsibility. BUT I don;t climb on gravestones or monuments. I DON'T disrepect the dead or their memory. I DO clean up trash and if I have the time I may even pull a few weeds while I'm there.

 

Keep the issue of this in focus folks. This could actually be a boon to cachers if the state will listen to us. They have a virutual road crew of hundreds out there cleaning up what the state for the most part doesn't care about or have the money to take care of.

 

X

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(monsters) were climbing all over the tombstones and running around on TOP of the graves like it was a playground.

I went to a cemetary to pay respects to a friend who was recently burried - ie, hump of brown dirt over the casket sort of thing... And what were the kids doing? Hopping up and down on the hump of dirt.

 

I was so in shock that I just stood there staring. Had I said/done anything, I'd probably have been arrested, I was so mad. The parents? Oh, talking about a movie they had seen recently or something equally as stupid.

 

The problem with geocaching is that we're just cultlike enough that we seem to get the regulations and brunt of other people's stupidity. This being a good example.

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Of the cemetary caches I've went on only ONE was actually within the cemetery grounds. The others have been outside the fence. Those gravesites were also abandoned. Except for one in Charleston which was a virtual cache site. I found the site VERY interesting and yes while I was there someone (not a CACHER) had there kids sight seeing and the little tykes (monsters) were climbing all over the tombstones and running around on TOP of the graves like it was a playground. I knoe that this is the parents responsibility. BUT I don;t climb on gravestones or monuments. I DON'T disrepect the dead or their memory. I DO clean up trash and if I have the time I may even pull a few weeds while I'm there.

 

Keep the issue of this in focus folks. This could actually be a boon to cachers if the state will listen to us. They have a virutual road crew of hundreds out there cleaning up what the state for the most part doesn't care about or have the money to take care of.

 

X

If I am not mistaken, activities that take place "outside the fence" are totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. I wonder why the owners of the cemetery don't take some sort of preventative or punitive actions against the destroyers of their private property? I think that I would. It is truly sad that others are not such noble stewards of cemeteries as you and I. And how is it that you came to the conclusion that "the state" doesn't care about its public lands being made a trash dump?

Edited by Team cotati697
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And how is it that you came to the conclusion that "the state" doesn't care about its public lands being made a trash dump?

I live here. There is so much that could be done that is not done. I think that most of the folks that live here would agree. Instead of the state paying people to make laws against what we do they should use said money to improve on a lot of the parks, not just state, but city. I see what SC does with public funds and it's not much where we live. Nothing against any fellow geocachers employed by the state, I'm sure you are there leaning on your shovel from 8:00 to 5:00 just like everyone else. :D:lol::D (AND YES THAT WAS A JOKE)

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And how is it that you came to the conclusion that "the state" doesn't care about its public lands being made a trash dump?

I live here. There is so much that could be done that is not done. I think that most of the folks that live here would agree. Instead of the state paying people to make laws against what we do they should use said money to improve on a lot of the parks, not just state, but city. I see what SC does with public funds and it's not much where we live. Nothing against any fellow geocachers employed by the state, I'm sure you are there leaning on your shovel from 8:00 to 5:00 just like everyone else. :D:lol::D (AND YES THAT WAS A JOKE)

Yeah, and I live here too. As a matter of fact I have lived in several "here's" across this great land and I have never encountered a state that didn't appear care about its lands, both public and private, being trashed. That some states might in fact have certain areas that are more trashy than others speaks more to the lack of caring and class of the inhabitants therein than to those who occupy the state house.

 

More can always be done.

 

The next time that you happen to travel up north, check out western New Jersey. There is no more glaring example of my observations than that which exists between eastern and western New Jersey.

Edited by Team cotati697
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Yeah, and I live here too. As a matter of fact I have lived in several "here's" across this great land and I have never encountered a state that didn't appear care about its lands, both public and private, being trashed. That some states might in fact have certain areas that are more trashy than others speaks more to the lack of caring and class of the inhabitants therein than to those who occupy the state house.

 

Next time don't ask. You asked why and you were told. Don't talk about the inhabitants of any place unless you know them. I can't stand that. Why attacke the people here? What did that accomplish?

 

This is what our state does for us:

Unrepaired roads. (If it's not a "tourist area" it gets put on the back burner.

 

Overtaxed for what we get ( but that could be anywhere)

 

I have two caches on so called state owned lands and they don't even come by to check on them much less have a ranger that takes care of the place.

 

Do you live in SC? If so then that makes you one of those who don't care and are of a lower class I guess.....

 

X

Edited by Clan X-Man
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Yeah, and I live here too. As a matter of fact I have lived in several "here's" across this great land and I have never encountered a state that didn't appear care about its lands, both public and private, being trashed. That some states might in fact have certain areas that are more trashy than others speaks more to the lack of caring and class of the inhabitants therein than to those who occupy the state house.

 

Next time don't ask. You asked why and you were told. Your profile states you live in California. YOU DON"T LIVE HERE.

I most certainly do live here.

 

I wonder why those who live there care so little about their state?

 

And by the way, I'll ask whenever I so desire. The decision as to whether or not to respond is always up to the descretion of the potential responder.

Edited by Team cotati697
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I'm curious, if a cacher is going through a cemetary to a historic grave and takes information off a tombstone that leads to a physical cache that is off the cemetary property. What is the differance from a regular history buff going to a cemetary to visit the tomb of some historic figure from history?

 

Volume.

 

There are not that many history buffs that go to cemeteries, let alone to a specific head stone.

 

The legislators sponsoring this bill are likely concerned that dozens of people each year could be going to specific sites (not just to a cemetery, but to a specific part of a specific cemetery) and causing damage or wear and tear.

 

Also, there is the sanitization of the legal system concept at work here. I found out this morning that the laws against stalking in LA are void if the person has a camera with them and tells the cops that he/she was selling pics of the star. Don't have to be an official journalist, just have a camera and remember the lines.

 

If I am a history-concious legislator and I have some cops tell me that they were unable to arrest some trouble maker and make the conviction of damaging an historic cemetery stick because they claimed to be geocachers, I am going to fix that problem. I am going to make geocaching in these spots illegal. Now the cops bust someone, and no matter what they say, they are going to jail.

 

The important thing about this, and why it should not go to the regional forum, is that this type of law could spread. I worry about the "regulate to death" approach more as its easier to pass regs that just don't quite work so easily and then bust the cachers who run afoul of the faulty regs, and thus shut down the hobby than it is to pass laws. Its not that much easier. A few antigeocaching hot heads or a few torqued off DAR types and we could have this problem spread.

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The legislators sponsoring this bill are likely concerned that dozens of people each year could be going to specific sites (not just to a cemetery, but to a specific part of a specific cemetery) and causing damage or wear and tear.

 

I hate it but this is actually a logical reason to ban in this particular situation.

 

X

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I'm curious, if a cacher is going through a cemetary to a historic grave and takes information off a tombstone that leads to a physical cache that is off the cemetary property.  What is the differance from a regular history buff going to a cemetary to visit the tomb of some historic figure from history?

 

Volume.

 

There are not that many history buffs that go to cemeteries, let alone to a specific head stone.

 

The legislators sponsoring this bill are likely concerned that dozens of people each year could be going to specific sites (not just to a cemetery, but to a specific part of a specific cemetery) and causing damage or wear and tear.

 

Also, there is the sanitization of the legal system concept at work here. I found out this morning that the laws against stalking in LA are void if the person has a camera with them and tells the cops that he/she was selling pics of the star. Don't have to be an official journalist, just have a camera and remember the lines.

 

If I am a history-concious legislator and I have some cops tell me that they were unable to arrest some trouble maker and make the conviction of damaging an historic cemetery stick because they claimed to be geocachers, I am going to fix that problem. I am going to make geocaching in these spots illegal. Now the cops bust someone, and no matter what they say, they are going to jail.

 

The important thing about this, and why it should not go to the regional forum, is that this type of law could spread. I worry about the "regulate to death" approach more as its easier to pass regs that just don't quite work so easily and then bust the cachers who run afoul of the faulty regs, and thus shut down the hobby than it is to pass laws. Its not that much easier. A few antigeocaching hot heads or a few torqued off DAR types and we could have this problem spread.

Please tell me that you are kidding.

 

"If I am a history-concious legislator and I have some cops tell me that they were unable to arrest some trouble maker and make the conviction of damaging an historic cemetery stick because they claimed to be geocachers,..."

 

Hey X-man, you getting this?

Edited by Team cotati697
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is the whole state a cemetary, archaelogical site, or historic property of the state?

Pretty much any human occupied area, cool spot, fun location or place you would put a cache is a prime candidate for an archaeological site.

 

The law as stated creates serious problems. If you don't know it's an archaeological site, can you be fined? If you can be fined can you request a list from the State office of historic preservation of all the archaeological sites so that you can avoid them? If the answer is no, then that' a major problem. They could work around this problem by clearly marking the archaelogical sites, but that would no doubt break another law.

 

Geocaching is best served by the individual land managers and on a case by case basis, especially when it comes to archaeological sites.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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The legislators sponsoring this bill are likely concerned that dozens of people each year could be going to specific sites (not just to a cemetery, but to a specific part of a specific cemetery) and causing damage or wear and tear.

 

I hate it but this is actually a logical reason to ban in this particular situation.

 

X

Have they banned taking impressions of gravestones? Banning memrorial day would do more to prevent "harm" But odds are they are not going to go there.

 

http://www.ghostseekers.com/Gravestones.htm

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Have they banned taking impressions of gravestones? Banning memrorial day would do more to prevent "harm" But odds are they are not going to go there.

 

http://www.ghostseekers.com/Gravestones.htm

Interesting. But you know that this is going to come down to one person who has probably had a bad experience with a cacher and wants to make the rest suffer.

 

No that's a little farfetched. It could be a person who thinks that they are doing the rigt thing to protect our cultural and historic heritage. Much as I hate to say it, it's probably the latter.

 

Maybe a little education will go a long way in this situation.

 

Does anyone know when this particualr bill is to be voted upon?

 

X

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I'm getting it but I wonder how many times it has happened out in what most call the real world. There are ways around lots of laws. BUT, ignorance os no excuse for the law either so I bet there aren't many ways around this or the papparazzi thingie in LA.

 

X

Yeah, I wonder how many times too. My guess would be ZERO. I wonder if I told the cops that I was an agent for the State Bureau of Investigation operating under deep deep double ought-7 cover. They'd probably let me, the trouble maker that I can be sometimes, go....... don't you think?

Edited by Team cotati697
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I am not from Carolina, but I would encourage all those that are to strongly lobby against this. I would argue that the law is not needed because arch sites and historic properties are already protected under federal law. Specifically the Antiquities Act and the Historic Preservation Act.

 

Cemetaries are not protected under these laws unless native americans are buried there, then they would be protected under the Native Graves and Re-Patranization Act. In any case I would stress that the placement of caches in or around any gravesite is not taken lightly and is usually done in honor.

 

I highly suspect that some archeologist or culteral resource person or group is behind this. Or more likely the State Historic Preservation Office (SHIPO). Every state has a SHIPO by federal law, if they are behind it I would argue that they are acting way outside thier bounds.

 

If you want to get to get some muscle behind the fight I would let the State tourism board know the potential financial impacts to the State if this legislation was passed. State tourism offices or boards seem to have a long history of fighting with SHIPO's, and at times even seem to enjoy it. At least it seems that way out West with the states I am familiar with.

 

There is a real danger in this to all of us. If the law gets passed the news will be published in professional journals and you could expect that similiar bills would appear in other states. I would not be willing to give them an inch. :D

Good summary. Want a job?

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...The important thing about this, and why it should not go to the regional forum, is that this type of law could spread. I worry about the "regulate to death" approach more as its easier to pass regs that just don't quite work so easily and then bust the cachers who run afoul of the faulty regs, and thus shut down the hobby than it is to pass laws. Its not that much easier. A few antigeocaching hot heads or a few torqued off DAR types and we could have this problem spread.

You are dead on. This one needs to be stopped in it's tracks. All those resources are already protected. If a geocacher did harm all geocaching does is add one more law to several they can choose from.

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I am not from Carolina, but I would encourage all those that are to strongly lobby against this. I would argue that the law is not needed because arch sites and historic properties are already protected under federal law. Specifically the Antiquities Act and the Historic Preservation Act.

 

Cemetaries are not protected under these laws unless native americans are buried there, then they would be protected under the Native Graves and Re-Patranization Act. In any case I would stress that the placement of caches in or around any gravesite is not taken lightly and is usually done in honor.

 

I highly suspect that some archeologist or culteral resource person or group is behind this. Or more likely the State Historic Preservation Office (SHIPO). Every state has a SHIPO by federal law, if they are behind it I would argue that they are acting way outside thier bounds.

 

If you want to get to get some muscle behind the fight I would let the State tourism board know the potential financial impacts to the State if this legislation was passed. State tourism offices or boards seem to have a long history of fighting with SHIPO's, and at times even seem to enjoy it. At least it seems that way out West with the states I am familiar with.

 

There is a real danger in this to all of us. If the law gets passed the news will be published in professional journals and you could expect that similiar bills would appear in other states. I would not be willing to give them an inch.  :D

Good summary. Want a job?

Do those federal laws restrict or prevent people from placing cammo'd 35mm film canisters in the bushes around these sites? How about the hiding of large Tupperware containers in these same locations? Or do they simply provide for the arrest and conviction of those people who are caught rooting around the sites?

 

I would have never imagined that Civil War Between the States monuments in South Carolina were under the protection of the federal gubmint. The things you learn while involved with geocaching. Interesting.

 

There's got to be hundreds if not thousands of the things down there. Not to mention Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, North Carolina, Virginia...........lordy. And we can't leave out the other side can we?

 

Man, that's one heckofa ton of monuments that the feds is protecting. This must make it a federal crime to mess with them. Federal prison follows I suppose.

Edited by Team cotati697
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Whoooaaaa.

 

Some good and not so good thoughts on both sides.

 

Just to qualify the following statements, I have been a para-archeologist, my ex is an archeologist and I work with federal cultural and natural resource specialist almost daily.

 

I cacher with tunnel vision might cause damage to vegetation, etc. around a historic site. However I think it would be very rare that the damage would be to any historical fabric itself.

 

The tunnel vision a cacher has will be far outweighed by the tunnel vision of the historic preservationist trying to protect their resource. "Thier" resource is often how many of these resource people think.

 

Most historic sites will have been protected and stabilized to the point that they would be hard to damage.

 

Archeology sites are very different. Even causual visits to an archeology site can cause damage. Turning over a rock, compacting the soil, or any number of otherwise innocent activities can cause damage that would be hard for the layman to understand. Once something at an arch site is out of context the information that context could have provided is lost forever. Once a site has been excavated and stabilized most would then consider it a historic site, but that may not always be the case.

 

Cemeteries I see as different also. To me it is a matter of respect, if an activity can be done respectfully and without causing any damage then I do not see a problem. I think geocaching could fit in there.

 

Out west in a place like where I live, a law like this really would not have too much of an impact on geocahing. In SC it is a little different, almost everything is historic, most parks are historic, whole cities can be historic districts.

 

My town has a small historic district, there is a puzzle cache there called "Historic Los Alamos" that is very tastefully done. I believe that geocaching and historic sites and cemeteries can live together in harmony.

 

It would be easy in the name of protection to pass a law outlawing geocaching. This would make the job of managing easier for the manager. However I feel it is their job to manage, I feel that we also do a fairly good job of managing ourselves. I like the way the U.S. Forest Service has approached this problem. The forest archeologist on the forest I work on gets an e-mail from Groundspeak whenever a new cache is placed on the forest. If they see a problem they will go to the site and check it out. If they still see a problem the cache will be removed. This may be a little more work for them, but hey they are public servents.

 

I guess the biggest problem I have with H.3777 is that it will outlaw all geocaching at those sites wether they are a threat to those sites or not. I think there are better ways to manage the issue that all sides could agree upon.

 

Maybe thats just the reality I live in, feel free to substitute your own. :D

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...Do those federal laws restrict or prevent people from placing cammo'd 35mm film canisters in the bushes around these sites? How about the hiding of large Tupperware containers in these same locations? Or do they simply provide for the arrest and conviction of those people who are caught rooting around the sites?...

Where are you going with this question?

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...Do those federal laws restrict or prevent people from placing cammo'd 35mm film canisters in the bushes around these sites? How about the hiding of large Tupperware containers in these same locations? Or do they simply provide for the arrest and conviction of those people who are caught rooting around the sites?...

Where are you going with this question?

Where do you THINK that I might be going?

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I have to agree that we shouldn't cache in an active archeological dig site. We could very well damage something as yet unearthed.

 

But we could do the same thing walking out our front door. I'm not making light of the arch sites just saying what is true. I wouldn't cache there and I don't think any other cacher worth his/her salt would either.

 

I like Indiana Jones.

 

X

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One side effect of this law will be hundreds upon hundreds of people contacting the South Carolina State Office of Historic Preservation requesting their list of archaeological sites so that they can avoid them when they place caches.

 

The odds are against them ever giving out the list, but the SHPO might be a good ally against the law since the land managers they work with can discretely request the removal of individual caches in their areas that can potentially cause harm. That helps keep sites secrete.

 

In reality we would be remiss if caching organization in trying to comply with the law did not start tracking these locations to help our fellow cachers avoid breaking the law. That runs entirely counter to the veil of secrecy that archeological sites are subject too. The current system is far batter for what both the SHPO and the Lawmakers are trying to achieve. Keep it secret and deal with individual caches, discretely.

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...Do those federal laws restrict or prevent people from placing cammo'd 35mm film canisters in the bushes around these sites? How about the hiding of large Tupperware containers in these same locations? Or do they simply provide for the arrest and conviction of those people who are caught rooting around the sites?...

Where are you going with this question?

Where do you THINK that I might be going?

Sorry I really can't tell.

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Good summary. Want a job?

Do those federal laws restrict or prevent people from placing cammo'd 35mm film canisters in the bushes around these sites? How about the hiding of large Tupperware containers in these same locations? Or do they simply provide for the arrest and conviction of those people who are caught rooting around the sites?

I already have a pretty cool job. I am a federal firefighter, I get to travel from state to state and sleep in the dirt.

 

It has been a few years since I have read the Antiquities Act, but basically it says that it is a federal offense to deface, damage, destroy,collect, remove, etc. any antiquity or historic object. There is one noteable exception, it is legal to collect arrowheads except on National Park Service lands. In 1976 Jimmy Carter made arrowhead collecting legal, much to the disdain of archeologist.

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