Terrifying Experience Placing A Cache

March 15, 2005

Yesterday, I took my two girls out with me for them to hide a cache. We picked out a local park that didn't have any caches hidden in it yet and planned on hiding 2 caches in the park. Being the middle of the day we felt safe within the area. We go to the main park entrance and there are muggles everywhere picnicking and playing basketball.

So, I drive around to another area near the park. The streets and trips directions took me directly to this location. It was a dead end residential road that was another entrance to the park. We make sure to walk only in the middle section of the area and head down a slight incline. When we get to the bottom there is a shallow creek with a drainage sewer running across it. The teen girls scamper across the creek and head up into the woods still within eyesight of me to hide the cache while I wait on the creek bank.

As they are walking back my younger daughter yells to me, "Um Mom!". I turn around and there is a 6 foot, medium build man stumbling around in the woods near me. He picks up a gigantic tree branch and starts swinging it in the air bellowing in the air for us to "Get out!" The girls start to come across the long drainage pipe and he commands them to "GET OFF THE PIPE!" So they do. My younger daughter at this point is standing by the creek edge in sheer terror and frozen.

As I head to her to get her across the creek, the insane stranger rushes me with the huge tree branch and swings it toward me, barely missing. His voice is booming, "Come on! Get out! Get Out!" Over and over he screams at us to get out. My older daughter has now rushed across the pipe and is standing behind me. The younger daughter is standing on the other side of the creek begging for help across. I yell to her to get her feet wet and run!

The man drops the threatening branch after cracking it in half loudly over his knee. We're all shivering and shaking at this point. He is between us and the only route to the car. With both girls behind me, I start slowly walking toward the car praying for our continued safety. The man dashes to my car, leans over the trunk with both hands and points to a house in the neighborhood hollering "Police"!.

Fortunately for us he takes off up to his house and we manage to get in the car and leave. There was obviously something in the woods there that he didn't want us to find or see. It was horrifying experience. To think that in broad daylight at and at a community park area we came so close to being seriously injured or killed.

We have vowed that we will not go caching or looking for a place to hide our cache without the C half of the group with us. We didn't even post the coordinates or anything to the cache we hid. We've just decided it is a loss. I don't want to put anyone else in the area of that insane lunatic!

~~J~~

9.4k · March 15, 2005

OMG! I hope you called the police. Either he's mentally disturbed, or he's hiding something like you said. Either way, they should be keeping a lookout for him. Glad you're ok.

March 15, 2005

One small bit of devil's advocacy: Are you sure that you were still in the park? Could the creek or the drainage pipe have been part of the boundary?

Regardless to the answer above, my opinion is that you should call the police. Even if you were tresspassing, his actions were wrong. He needs to be stopped. If you weren't tresspassing, that goes triple.

If that park doesn't have caches yet, someone else is going to have an idea to hide some there themselves sooner or later, so ignoring this isn't going to prevent other cachers from going near this guy.

Congratulations on your escape. Please consider making that call.

5k · March 15, 2005

This most certainly deserved a police report. Did you make the call? It sounds like you even know where the guy lives. I think somebody ought to have a talk with him.

Jamie

March 15, 2005

You don't go out hiding a cache somewhere that you don't know the terrain & all circumstances involved. I thought caches would be more thought than this. Maybe theres a reason why no caches were hidden there already.

Go ahead call the cops on this guy. Do your civic duty if it makes you feel better. Takes all the fun out of geocaching when confronted by an irate property owner protecting his sewer pipe. Who would want to hide a cache where you either had to straddle a sewer pipe or walk up a creek with no paddle?

:ninja: I'm glad you got out okay and your daughters aren't traumitized the rest of their lives.

March 15, 2005

I agree, you need to call the police on this one. After reading your post, the first thing that came to my mind is a possible meth lab in the pipe.

1.7k · March 15, 2005

Call the cops. If he wanted you off the pipe and out of the woods that he was prepared to assualt you something is going on. Even though you plan on not going back there, think what might happen to the next person if this goes unreported.

1.2k · March 15, 2005

This is why I went to www.udap.com and got their multi-pack of pepper spray. They started with bear spray and branched out from there.

Their "Jogger Fogger" device shoots a spray that reaches up to THIRTY FEET. It carries enough ounces of pure "yikes!" to take down a whole small mob. I now proudly carry this whenever I go into some possibly scary area.

I wish I could have read this story with an ending of this guy falling down and moaning from the pain in his eyes and lungs after threatening you as you call the cops. Woulda been nice.

At least you know now what to do. Hope this helps...

Edited March 15, 2005 by Sparrowhawk

1.7k · March 15, 2005

You don't go out hiding a cache somewhere that you don't know the terrain & all circumstances involved. I thought caches would be more thought than this. Maybe theres a reason why no caches were hidden there already.

Go ahead call the cops on this guy. Do your civic duty if it makes you feel better. Takes all the fun out of geocaching when confronted by an irate property owner protecting his sewer pipe. Who would want to hide a cache where you either had to straddle a sewer pipe or walk up a creek with no paddle?

I'm glad you got out okay and your daughters aren't traumitized the rest of their lives.

You should reread the original post, they entered the park through an entrance located in a residential area, something many of us have done and is not trespassing. As far as the having to cross a sewer pipe or jumping a stream, Geocaching attracts a wide range of cache hunters. There those of us who enjoy caches that require more of a physical challenge than getting out of our car and walking 20 minutes.

As far as I am concerned the OP did nothing wrong, even if they had been trespassing the person they encountered was out of control and clearly a potential threat. Especially given the fact that two children were clearly at risk.

March 15, 2005

J, first off, always carry Fox OC whenever you go out, caching or otherwise. Fox is the best OC in production, period.

Second, you were lucky the guy didn't whack you with the branch. Do you have the option of self defense where you live? You probably do, unless you live in KS, WI, NE or two others I cannot recall at the moment. You might want to consider that option.

Third, have you re-evaluated your actions once he began yelling at you? What I mean is, did you act like a victim? From your description of events, it sounds like you were fairly passive in reaction to his actions. I don't mean you should necessarily go toe-to-toe with him, OR that fleeing the area was not a good idea, but it is important to consider HOW you left. Think grizzley bear with her cubs, and you will get the idea I think. Make eye contact, don't cower, be LOUD if you need to. Carry a whistle if you like--make it a good Bobby-style one, or ocean rescue kind though. A stout wooden walking staff might make a nice addition to your caching gear. They make them in 'Scouts' sizes too, for your girls.

Fourth, talk it all over with your girls. Explain to them there are times when they have to follow your instructions to the letter, no questions asked, and immediately. Make sure to review with them what they should do if they are ever in a situation like that, or in other types of harms way, alone or with friends.

Fifth, carry your cellphone & be sure to use it to report incidents like this. He probably has a history of threatening folks.

Good luck & stay safe.

Vicky

who caches with all 3 of our kids.

Just remember, don't mess with a mama grizzly!

6.4k · March 15, 2005

I'm not a lawyer, but in most states I'm pretty sure you would have been legally able to cause this guy to quickly come down with a fatal case of lead poisoning.

If a guy with a weapon were going after my daughters (if I had any ) there would not have been a second though about 2 quick shots to center of mass.

March 16, 2005

How terrifying! I agree on calling the police, even though it is not the same day! Just inform them of the crazy guy in the woods. maybe they already have info on him...maybe they don't. But I personally would feel better knowing I informed them that this guy attacked us!

P.s. Don't let it discourage you from hiding a cache...hope you can find a better spot without crazy guys.

March 16, 2005

I'm not a lawyer, but in most states I'm pretty sure you would have been legally able to cause this guy to quickly come down with a fatal case of lead poisoning.

If a guy with a weapon were going after my daughters (if I had any ) there would not have been a second though about 2 quick shots to center of mass.

Amen to that. Swinging a large tree branch at your head is absolutely aggravated assault (or whatever it's called in your state).

And, I assure you if you had sprayed this bozo with pepper spray, he would have not reacted like a bear. He would probably gotten more violent. It might buy you a few seconds but it has been my expiereance that mental wacko's do not react to OC spray like "normal" folks (and often not at all - it just makes them madder).

If it was later in the spring I might guess the guy might have already started his Ganja crop on "public land" to avoid detection, but it's early in NC for that. He may have a meth lab or still and this might be why he was screaming about the pipe, or he may have just been a nut.

Glad you made it out in one piece. You need to report it to the police ASAP (if you have not already). It may prevent the next errant hiker from being seriously injured by this bozo.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Roo & the Bears

3.2k · March 16, 2005

We have a couple nuts like that around here and in both cases they live next to some relatively recent park land purchases. They had free use of the land before it became park land... in one case for at least three generations.. and consider the land to be theirs and protect it accordingly. In the cases here the police will do nothing because the land is so far from their cruiser that the coffee will be cold when they get back. :lol: Hope you have better luck.

March 16, 2005

He would have added at least one star to the diffuiculty :rolleyes:

1.2k · March 16, 2005

Sounds like a mental health issue to me. People like this should not be allowed to walk around public areas terrorizing hikers. Myself, I'd go back but more prepared. ;-)

4.8k · March 16, 2005

Second, you were lucky the guy didn't whack you with the branch. Do you have the option of self defense where you live? You probably do, unless you live in KS, WI, NE or two others I cannot recall at the moment. You might want to consider that option.

Nebraska allows a common law defense of self defense. I believe we may have a statutory one as well, but I am too lazy to check.

March 16, 2005

Between the wild animals in the woods and the wild animals from the city who sometimes venture into the woods, I always travel armed--especially when my daughter's with me.

6.4k · March 16, 2005

Second, you were lucky the guy didn't whack you with the branch. Do you have the option of self defense where you live? You probably do, unless you live in KS, WI, NE or two others I cannot recall at the moment. You might want to consider that option.

Nebraska allows a common law defense of self defense. I believe we may have a statutory one as well, but I am too lazy to check.

Just don't do it with a firearm in Nebraska, since I think they are one of only 4 states that do not have any type of right to carry law.

Jeeze, I'll do the legwork for the pikalawyer, hehehe.

Nebraska Code

24.7k · March 16, 2005

Mopar, interesting laws. The deck is stacked. If someone else determines if I could have "retreated in complete safety" there is no such thing as a self defence justification. Nevermind that there is an aggressor.

My own judgment does not matter. I didn't read further, that was plenty to chew on.

March 21, 2005

He would have added at least one star to the diffuiculty

Thanks for adding a bit of lightness to a pretty scary tale...

March 21, 2005

Thanks for all the words of support and encouragement.. plus the tips. I guess I was just a little niave on this one. At least we're safe. The police took an incident report and said that they'd had a call in the area but wouldn't give me any details as to what it was about or the results. The officer said "We're keeping an eye on that area" and suggested that I use the main park entrance instead of that area. I personally don't want to go back there period! I'll find other cool places to keep hiding those caches.

I try to hide a variety of caches with different terrian levels because I think it makes it more fun in this sport for people to have a choices about what kinds of caches they want to find.

~~J~~

1.7k · March 21, 2005

I want to commend you for contacting the police about this. Clearly this is not an isolated incident and they now know to keep a better watch on this area.

March 22, 2005

It's hard to not get stuck in the victim mode. I guess that the best thing about this whole experience is that I learned a lot. My kids learned a lot too. Fortunately they still want to go caching!

March 22, 2005

Remember, it only takes two pounds of pressure to pop out the human eyeball.

March 22, 2005

Remember, it only takes two pounds of pressure to pop out the human eyeball.

And, I believe only 5-7 pounds to pull off an ear...

1.3k · March 22, 2005

Remember, it only takes two pounds of pressure to pop out the human eyeball.

And, I believe only 5-7 pounds to pull off an ear...

And only 5oz of pressure on the trigger of a 9mm to put them out of their misery!! :grin:

Note: 5oz is just a guess! I have no real knowledge to back up the smart a** comment!!

Just my lame attempt at humor!!

D-man

Edited March 22, 2005 by gridlox

6.4k · March 22, 2005

Remember, it only takes two pounds of pressure to pop out the human eyeball.

And, I believe only 5-7 pounds to pull off an ear...

And only 5oz of pressure on the trigger of a 9mm to put them out of their misery!!

Note: 5oz is just a guess! I have no real knowledge to back up the smart a** comment!!

Just my lame attempt at humor!!

D-man

Actually, the trigger pull on most 9mm pistols is more like the pull required to remove an ear.

Glock 17 specs

March 29, 2005

7 Lbs. to be exact for the Glock 17 or 19 which is a 9mm.

It may seem like a lot but it's not.

I'm all for carrying a pistol while caching. The majority of the time I have to keep an eye on my daughters and one eye out for the cache. No one will harm my daughters or threaten them with bodily harm.

March 29, 2005

I agree with posts about caching armed. It can be a sick, sad world and whether you're in a popular public place or backwoods middle of nowhere, it's better to be safe than sorry.

I'm thinking this guy had a mental problem, or like mentioned, he may have been protecting something "cooking" or "growing" in the area the daughters were heading for!

March 29, 2005

Not to be the devil's advocate, but for those of you who carry guns while caching, I don't think shooting the guy immediately (even in a non-fatal area) would have been the right thing to do. Most people will stop dead in their tracks if you point the gun at them - if not, then you should shoot. I wouldn't fault anyone for shooting first and asking questions later in a situation like that, mind you, but personally I'd try to avoid it unless it was absolutely necessary.

March 29, 2005

Not to mention a messy situation getting a concealed weapons permit and all... Maybe a gun is a little extreme, but pepper spray, a wooden walking stick, or a burly boyfriend. :laughing:

Being a 19 year old girl myself, I would definitely not go caching alone. I hope those cachers who do go out alone keep a good head about themselves and / or carry protection. Especially the ladies.

March 29, 2005

I once stumbled on a meth-lab while hiking, before I began geocaching. I cleared out fast and then called in the SO. I was very happy I didn't have my kids with me on this one.

I've also stumbled into some somewhat uncertain areas and now carry in most non-urban areas. Though I now have a concealed permit, I wear a thigh holster when hiking/caching. The thigh holster keeps it off my hip and away from the wasitbelt of my pack.

-Cole

March 29, 2005

When in the woods, I carry a .22 in a tactical thigh holster. Makes it look a lot bigger. In urban areas I have my walking stick and a partner. I just make sure that I can outrun my partner and if not, that is what the stick is for. Very similar to caching in bear country. :laughing:

March 31, 2005

The Short Reply

It's a ***CIVIL RIGHT***. Any statute that does not meet this is not enforceable under constitutional law. Period. You have the Right To Keep And Bear Arms! Exercise it properly and Be Safe! No Other Way!!

Thus Endeth The Short Reply

March 31, 2005

Hmm...various thoughts on carry while caching...

A .22 in the hand beats a .45 in the safe at home...but I'd rather have a 1911 than a .22.

TX does not have open carry, so there's no way to carry a handgun on your thigh legally. (Unless it's concealed in a pocket...)

CHLers in TX have a lower crime rate than the general population (per DPS stats).

--Vic303

21.9k · March 31, 2005

Let's not let this thread transform into a general discussion of gun rights vs. gun control, gun brand X vs. gun brand Y, permit requirements in State A vs. State B, etc. Keep on topic and nobody gets hurt.

March 31, 2005

Thanks for the heads up post. It sounds like your attacker could have been on meth or another like drug (PCP is making a comeback in laced joints). Anyways be very careful because when people are not thinking clearly and perhaps have greater strength/adrenaline/etc. things can get dangerous. I agree with your tactic of exiting the situation as quickly as possible. Run first unless all else fails. I carry a cell phone and get dragged along by a large dog who has an amazing ability to detect nice people from dangerous ones. Calling the police was important to protect others too and I would follow up with them to just make sure they stay on it.

2.6k · April 1, 2005

Yesterday, I took my two girls out with me for them to hide a cache. We picked out a local park that didn't have any caches hidden in it yet and planned on hiding 2 caches in the park. Being the middle of the day we felt safe within the area. We go to the main park entrance and there are muggles everywhere picnicking and playing basketball.

So, I drive around to another area near the park. The streets and trips directions took me directly to this location. It was a dead end residential road that was another entrance to the park. We make sure to walk only in the middle section of the area and head down a slight incline. When we get to the bottom there is a shallow creek with a drainage sewer running across it. The teen girls scamper across the creek and head up into the woods still within eyesight of me to hide the cache while I wait on the creek bank.

As they are walking back my younger daughter yells to me, "Um Mom!". I turn around and there is a 6 foot, medium build man stumbling around in the woods near me. He picks up a gigantic tree branch and starts swinging it in the air bellowing in the air for us to "Get out!" The girls start to come across the long drainage pipe and he commands them to "GET OFF THE PIPE!" So they do. My younger daughter at this point is standing by the creek edge in sheer terror and frozen.

As I head to her to get her across the creek, the insane stranger rushes me with the huge tree branch and swings it toward me, barely missing. His voice is booming, "Come on! Get out! Get Out!" Over and over he screams at us to get out. My older daughter has now rushed across the pipe and is standing behind me. The younger daughter is standing on the other side of the creek begging for help across. I yell to her to get her feet wet and run!

The man drops the threatening branch after cracking it in half loudly over his knee. We're all shivering and shaking at this point. He is between us and the only route to the car. With both girls behind me, I start slowly walking toward the car praying for our continued safety. The man dashes to my car, leans over the trunk with both hands and points to a house in the neighborhood hollering "Police"!.

Fortunately for us he takes off up to his house and we manage to get in the car and leave. There was obviously something in the woods there that he didn't want us to find or see. It was horrifying experience. To think that in broad daylight at and at a community park area we came so close to being seriously injured or killed.

We have vowed that we will not go caching or looking for a place to hide our cache without the C half of the group with us. We didn't even post the coordinates or anything to the cache we hid. We've just decided it is a loss. I don't want to put anyone else in the area of that insane lunatic!

~~J~~

Sounds like a solid 5 rating. Will it be approved soon?? :mad:

[Glad everyone's OK. Just wanted to lead things back to the topic.]

April 1, 2005

I'll second the thought that I'm glad everyone came out of this alright.

I personally don't cache armed, but that being said I do always have something that can in some way be used for offense or defense (sounds cryptic, but it could be anything eg: a loaded backpack can be used to deflect a blow and even thrown/swung to take an attacker off balance giving you a chance to escape).

Another practice when we go out on a family hike / cache is that we take one of our dogs with us. None of them have been attack trained, but they have bonded deeply with us (the kids especially) - kind of goes along the same lines of a grizzly protecting her kids. They're both a deterrent and a I have no doubts that they'd fight to the death to protect the kids.

-PD

April 3, 2005

While i don't keep a firearm on me, we have plenty at the house. Never had to shoot anyone but we have had some scary times here. i slept in the barn with a shotgun for weeks after we got death threats.

i have a pocket knife in my pocket at all times. Quite often when i get a little tense about whatever situation i am in my hand goes straight for that knife. I have only pulled it out once, not when caching but for a "friendly" dog. if it was friendly I never want to see a mean dog. (No, I didn't use it but it made me feel better)

The way i see it is you need to take care of your family. If that means running away, shooting someone, taking a blow with the log, or fighting for your life DO IT. When in a situation like that all bets are off. If you face legal action for protecting your family then you really have to wonder about our legal system.

Now if you read this and think that i enjoy fighting, or shooting, or violence you are dead wrong. i took an oath of peace two years ago and I stick to that. But you can be peaceful and still take care of yourself and your family. People who know me realize that i am a very gentle man. However nobody that i know has ever seen me in a fight. Growing up i got picked on allot. I learned how to defend myself, and i didn't forget. Do what it takes, follow through with the police when it's all over and pray that this man gets the help he needs. Even if that includes a jail cell.

April 5, 2005

We never submitted the cache. We didn't want others stumbling into the same mess that we were in. The girls have bounced back well though. They hid a couple caches this past weekend. We even went out and looked for some. They were DNF's but at least we're back up and feeling better. I did go buy a couple jogger sprays to carry with us primarily for our own sense of well being. :-)

April 5, 2005

The Short Reply

It's a ***CIVIL RIGHT***. Any statute that does not meet this is not enforceable under constitutional law. Period. You have the Right To Keep And Bear Arms! Exercise it properly and Be Safe! No Other Way!!

Thus Endeth The Short Reply

Of course it's a civil right. And in most states you will be thrown in jail for exercising that right, especially with twists in the law that says you have to be cornered and trapped with no means of escape before you use a firearm.

And so, in most states, using a firearm in self defense will still get you jail time. And I even think that's true for any type of weapon used in self-defense, if you hurt someone that's assault or battery, period.

April 5, 2005

I've heard from more than one martial art, and more than one sensei, that fighting is the last resort. Violence is the stupid and weak man's way of solving a problem. HOWEVER, they also say, if you are cornered by stupid and violent people (of which there are many), then KICK a**, do it once, and do it with finality.

April 8, 2005

All things considered, and there's a lot that went on in those few minutes, you did fine.

I'll get to the point.

The guy wanted to scare you, not hurt you.

He's swinging this branch around when he could have easily have attacked you with the branch, or with his hands. But, he kept a certain amount of distance.

Even when he threw himself on your car, he didn't move at you as you got in it.

What you did was fine.

Unless someone is experienced or trained in fighting and tactics, you can't expect the heavens to suddenly open and pour knowledge into your head about what to do.

You only goal was to get your kids out safely and that's how you responded.

Attacking him is fine if you're alone, but you are the only thing between him and your kids. There's a big difference between defending and attacking. You defended your children by putting yourself between him and them. Nice job.

I'm guessing the guy is nuts.

If he was hiding anything it's less likely he would have yelled for the police, but not completely out of the question.

I've been in martial arts for a very long time. I've never been in a fight. Even the best of us can get hurt. If I was in your place, I wouldn't have gone at him. At the worst, he could have had a gun or knife, or bitten me and drawn blood, and who knows what I'd have to get shots for after that.

At best I would have kicked his butt and he'd sue me. Win or lose, I'd still be paying for legal fees.

At this point, my only thought would be to see how much confidence your kids have in you now. Your older one does, otherwise she would have not come to you. Your younger one was more scared of him than confident in you.

That's natural. After all, you're nice, gentle, and don't beat them with coat hangers. But she's not used to having some insane Bigfoot storming around like a gorilla in heat.

It's only my opinion, of course, but you might consider talking to her about how she can believe that she'll always be safe with you. After all, nothing really happened other than yelling and branch swinging.

Hope this helps.

April 8, 2005

Thanks for the input and suggestions. I think that it's definitely important to talk to your kids about safety and feeling safe with the adults and parents. I never thought about the possibility that my younger daughter might have been less trusting then the older one. That is something that would be good to talk to her about. The way you put it makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

April 10, 2005

WOW. That sounds like it would be scarey. I am a 20 year old male, and have grown up watching my mom get beat by one of her ex-boyfriends from the time I was in second grade. 10 years later we finally got rid of him, but unfortionatly it took a trip to the hospital for my mom to get that type of sense knocked into her. They went out on night and came home drunk, then started fighting and he threw her out of the room and I mean litterally threw her out. She hit her head and neck on the wall across the hallway. She was not seriously injuried(thank god). I however was the last one to get out of bed to see what was going on. I have a younger brother and sister. MY sisters room was directly across the hall so I am sure she heard the noise rather well. My only excuse for being the last one out of bed is because I was just so fed up with the fighting over the years. See I have jumped in between them so many times. I remember this one time where I pushed my mom out of the way and she got stabbed by a piece of metal from a lamp shade I had pushed her into. I also remember everthing the ex-boyfriend has thrown at me and everything.

Some of the items would include: a phone jack(the place you hang a corded phone), coffee cups, full cans of "pop", shoes, plates, punches(of course I threw those back), and about everything but the kitchen sink. So as you can see I am not a wuss by any means, however I do want to tell all of you who read this that I was almost into tears after reading J's post and I am proud to admit that. It is because of everything I have seen my mom go through, that I can not intentionally hit a female.

I am glad to hear that you and your daughters made it out ok and that you did file a report.

Terrifying Experience Placing A Cache

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