Geocaching Guidelines For South Africa

[+geocacher_coza]

I'm trying to put together a set of "rules" for geocaching in South Africa that I would like to publish on my website. I need input from everybody involved in South Africa. The more input I can get the more representative it will become!

I could be wrong here but we still do not have any real guidelines/rules/help in place about the do and don’ts for geocaching in South Africa.

Maybe we can get together and get all the thought from everybody involved at the moment and come up with something "official" It could be something like the rules of the GAGB rules GAGB Guidelines

We can then get it posted on the various websites in SA devoted to the sport. I think we should get one email address setup that we can put on the brochures etc we put out for the sport. Like this the email could have a automated response with names and telephone numbers on of volunteers in of the sport in different areas that can introduce new people to the sport.

I have a few more email alias I could use so I could set up a email address with a auto response for this purpose--- Maybe we could have a name like GASA Geocaching Association of South Africa with a email address of gasa@geocacher.co.za

Edited March 14, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[AE_Rodney]

Why does SA need it's own set of rules?

[+geocacher_coza]

Why does SA need it's own set of rules?

Maybe I should rephrase it--- We need a set of unique South African guidelines!

Rodney, why are your rules at Tuks different to the rules at Maties? Because both are unique in their own way!

Same with geocaching! Look around. USA has some guidelines and rules! Britain has, Aus has, New Zeeland has ----- we have nothing!

For that matter--- If we expect the sport to grow in South Africa as it is now we WILL need some sort of "governing" body in the near future!

hre are a quote from the GAGB site---

For some time, it has been becoming more and more apparent that Geocaching in the United Kingdom needs to be represented by a body recognised in the UK by the cachers and acting on behalf of the cachers.

If and when the sport grows like we all hope it would, we will be need to be prepared. It does not help we do our own entire thing without consulting one and other. Like this the sport of geocaching will go nowhere! I have my ideas, Globalrat has his, Warthog has(Just using examples of names guys, mean nothing derogatory about it! his, and you have yours. Just think what powerful tool it will be if we could have all our ideas together!

That is the reason why we need a guideline and some sort of "association”.

Edited March 14, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[+Whostops]

I agree that we need some guidelines, but I think at this stage they would be very similar to what is available @ www.geocaching.com.

 

I like the idea of "Automated replies"

I know there are a few of us in KZN who would be more than willing to "Show the Ropes" to "Newbies"

[Azaruk]

Governing body????!!!!!

 

No way!

 

Guidelines are OK, and I agree that perhaps a guide to South African geocaching would be a good thing, but only a guide.

 

To establish a governing body, with the control, rules and interference that implies would damage the sport.

 

The only rules that are required are the three basic tenets of geocaching - Find it, sign the log, put it back.

 

If there were to be a governing body attempting to control geocaching in South Africa, I for one would no longer be a part of the game. It's the very freedom of geocaching that makes it so attractive.

 

I would be happy to be an ambassador to geocaching by doing all I can to provide publicity for the sport, to accompany newbies to introduce them to the game, and so on, but rules, committees, governing bodies and the like have no place in the sport.

 

The rules are simple - anyone can follow them, 'nuff said!

 

And surely - the fact that we do our own thing, without consulting each other, is what the game is all about?

 

I'm not going to discuss my plans, my ideas or my prospective locations with anybody. It's my choice.

 

If one of my caches is placed before someone elses who had plans for the same area (it has happened) then contact me - some sort of compromise can be reached - but don't dictate to me where, how and when I can or cannot place a cache. That would be totally unacceptable.

 

There is also the fact that few players actually visit the forums, or have any interest in other sites. www.geocaching.com is the only site required to play the game.

Edited March 15, 2005 by Azaruk

[+Brick]

Have to say I'm with Azaruk on this one. Meeting my fellow cachers on a friendly basis over a pint is much more fun than at a formal meeting....

[+geocacher_coza]

Governing body????!!!!!

 

No way!

Azaruk

I'm also feeling the same about a governing body! Maybe you read my suggestion all wrong! I'm NOT suggesting a governing body. Just something that we can use as a tool to get better communication between all of us that are interested in the sport. As for the "rules" (you will note I have again put it in brackets) It will be nice to have the guidelines as put out on the geocaching website and various other website modified by people like you that know the conditions and requirement for South African cache hunting. Lets face it all countries are different! Our climate, conditions etc makes the placing of caches different than those in the USA or any other place.

And surely - the fact that we do our own thing, without consulting each other, is what the game is all about?

I'm not going to discuss my plans, my ideas or my prospective locations with anybody. It's my choice. If one of my caches is placed before someone else’s who had plans for the same area (it has happened) then contact me - some sort of compromise can be reached - but don't dictate to me where, how and when I can or cannot place a cache. That would be totally unacceptable.

A association should NOT be there to regulate to you how, where and when to hide caches etc. And I do know this is not what I had in mind! Go and look at the website of the “The Geocaching Association of Great Britain”

All that they do is a go between the different bodies that own public ground and the cachers. They upkeep a database of the different rules and regulations of public land owners etc. They negotiate with landowners about the placing of caches etc. Soon, if the sport takes of big time in SA, we will need somebody or something to speak as one when we start running into rules and regulations concerning leaving caches on public land etc. That is all we need, and that is where people like you come into play. We need spoke persons for all of us in the different provinces! NOT SOMEBODY TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO.

Edited March 15, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[Azaruk]

Ok. I see where you're going with this.

 

Because of differing regulations in the provinces, as well as different regulations from one organisation to another, a representative will be required in each province.

 

As the game grows, this is going to become a major task for the reps, trying to cover all site possibilities with regard to permissions, etc.

 

I'd be interested to see whether any of the current forum readers would be prepared to take a task of this importance and magnitude on, in addition to their normal work and caching time.

 

I think a great deal of discussion and 'round-tabling' will be required before any decisions are made.

 

I'll be monitoring this thread with interest.

 

Thanks for your commitment to the game.

[+geocacher_coza]

Yes, that's it!

I think we just need to get our ducks in a row before we caught with our pants down!

BUT.... as you say a lot of work..... we need to get as much suggestions and input as possible beforehand.

What do you think if we start of with a email address and a automated reply that explain geocaching, that have all the info on it, shortened version of do and don’ts with some shortcuts to people like you in the provinces that can give some newbie’s good information. We can only give our geocaching alias so that our email addresses stay confidential.

This email address can then be included on your stash note and on our websites etc.

[+warthog]

Now that most have agreed that this is a sport and not just a hobby, and with "rules" and "governing bodies" on the way, how are we going to deal with the situation of ensuring that our teams are more "politically correct" represented when we go caching?

 

Just a joke , as this is where all sports in South Africa end up, becoming political playballs, raher than ensuring better training/coaching.

 

From my side, I would rather see better training/coaching in our sport and therefore put myself up to assist any newbies in the Gauteng area when they have questions or when they need an "old hand" when they go caching.

[+erik88l-r]

I think you'll find that if (when?) park authorities start to regulate, or even ban, geocaches you'll want to form an organization. That allows you to negociate with them as representatives of a group, rather than as individuals.

 

Unfortunatly as the sport grows and local restictions crop up you'll also have to develop some rules for geocaching in South Africa. Hopefully those rules will parallel the general guidelines on the GC.com site and only have a few added ones like "physical geocaches are limited to a maximum of 12 at the XYZ Preserve by order of the park manager."

 

~erik~

[Azaruk]

Thanks for your contribution Erik. Always a pleasure hearing from you.

 

I am happy to represent KZN - Greater Durban area - and am more than happy to help newbies out. The more players the better.

 

I am sending my personal email to geocacher_coza so that further communications can happen there as well. I don't get onto the forums as often as I would like, and might miss something. E-mail is more immediate.

 

Let's do it!

[Azaruk]

Are you thinking of email addresses linked to the geocacher.co.za site, or do you intend using the geocaching site address?

 

I don't think that the geocache address is available without logging onto the site first.

 

I have set up a geocaching-specific email alias on my system, so don't mind giving that one out, or including it on stash notes etc.

[+geocacher_coza]

I was only going to use my geocacher.co.za domain as I have a lot of spare alias I can use!

It WILL NOT be linked to my site at all other r than the domain name I don’t want people to think I'm doing this for personal gain.

All I will do is make one email alias available to use. Later we can work on getting a website up and running! In the mean time I thought that everybody could make a page or two available on their respective sites (If they want to get involved) that we can post our guidelines and also the peoples contact details etc.

What do you think? I will be sending you an email as well

We can call it the SAGA. South African Geocaching Association maybe? Come up with some suggestions! Email-- SAGA@geocacher.co.za. I can put an automated response on this email end also a forwarder to all the volunteers email addresses. So that every email sent to this email address will automatically be sent to all the volunteer as well. Then it is up to the volunteer in the sender’s area to answer the sender.

[Azaruk]

That works for me.

 

I will be putting a series of pages up on our company site.

 

Will be similar to: www.tohf.net/geocaching

 

Our site is NOT running yet (yet another of my tasks to do!), but will be up soon.

 

I can obviously name the geocaching section any way I (we) like. It could even be www.tohf.net/SAGA_KZN for instance.

 

Anyway - the pages are available for KZN.

 

Looking forward to working on this .......

[+GlobalRat]

One day down with the flu and all hell breaks lose

 

IMHO

 

I have to go with Erik on his statements and those made by others on this thread. While I agree that there can be some guidelines that can be issued which are unique to South Africa, and I'll be happy to participate and publish, the establishment of an association which governs the sport specifically in South Africa is unecessary. The general guidelines issued by, and the control of the sport by the Geocaching.com organisation should be sufficient. If we do reach a stage where the sport needs formal representation due to "clashes" with local authorities then such an association would be feasible and provide more weight than individual cachers. By this, I'm not saying that some association should not be formed, indeed it may well be a posistive step in growing the sport further in the country. I would however not condone such an association governing how the sport is played in the country.

 

As for creating parallel communication structures and forums outside of Groundspeak??? Why? Is this forum not sufficient? If not, perhaps raise this with Groundspeak. By creating little individual forums all over the world, the information just becomes so dispersed that one loses the interaction with fellow cachers around the world and even in the country.

 

I would still like to see Geocaching.com as everyone's first port of call, and then naturally for specifics on countries or provinces, other sites can be used. An excellent example of this is the UK Geocaching site which has published a London Underground map with the relevant caches on it. I think all the caches listed on it have a link back to the map on their cache pages too. This is the kind of thing I would want to see on a local site.... BTW I have something similar in the pipeline ... when is that Gautrain going to be finished

 

From my side, I would rather see better training/coaching in our sport and therefore put myself up to assist any newbies in the Gauteng area when they have questions or when they need an "old hand" when they go caching.

 

If memory serves there is a "How to Geocache DVD" and "Geocaching for Dummies" available from Groundspeak... GBA I even tracked down a chap in the US that quoted himself as being a Professional Geocacher... and trains people in geocaching

 

I like the idea that this thread is thinking BIG, which is a huge plus for the sport in the country.... but lets not blow out a kindling flame with rooolz rooolz rooolz.

[+geocacher_coza]

Globalrat

See my answer to Azaruks first reply!

The idea is not to change any geocaching rules. Just to get then "streamlined " for SA. Then we DO NOT want to have extra little forums etc. Geocaching will still be the first port of call. We would just like to create some sort of structure to ensure newbie's get the correct info and introduction into the game in South Africa! See Below!

 

I'm also feeling the same about a governing body! Maybe you read my suggestion all wrong! I'm NOT suggesting a governing body. Just something that we can use as a tool to get better communication between all of us that are interested in the sport. As for the "rules" (you will note I have again put it in brackets) It will be nice to have the guidelines as put out on the geocaching website and various other website modified by people like you that know the conditions and requirement for South African cache hunting. Lets face it all countries are different! Our climate, conditions etc makes the placing of caches different than those in the USA or any other place.

 

And surely - the fact that we do our own thing, without consulting each other, is what the game is all about?

I'm not going to discuss my plans, my ideas or my prospective locations with anybody. It's my choice. If one of my caches is placed before someone else’s who had plans for the same area (it has happened) then contact me - some sort of compromise can be reached - but don't dictate to me where, how and when I can or cannot place a cache. That would be totally unacceptable.

A association should NOT be there to regulate to you how, where and when to hide caches etc. And I do know this is not what I had in mind! Go and look at the website of the “The Geocaching Association of Great Britain”

All that they do is a go between the different bodies that own public ground and the cachers. They upkeep a database of the different rules and regulations of public land owners etc. They negotiate with landowners about the placing of caches etc. Soon, if the sport takes of big time in SA, we will need somebody or something to speak as one when we start running into rules and regulations concerning leaving caches on public land etc. That is all we need, and that is where people like you come into play. We need spoke persons for all of us in the different provinces! NOT SOMEBODY TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO.

[Azaruk]

edited: GlobalRat - geocacher_coza beat me to it!!!! And another thing - I strongly suggest you don't get the flu again!!!!!

 

I agree.

But the ideas proposed here are purely for guidelines aimed at the South African geocacher. It will take nothing away from www.geocaching.com.

 

The parent site in USA will remain the prime site. All logs, info, forums and so will reside there, as they are now. The South African site will simply offer information pertaining to the South African geocaching scene, with local contact names to assist local cachers. All other aspects will operate as they are currently.

 

Obviously, the local site will be a great place to disseminate information, announce events, distribute brochures, offer Groundspeak goodies and so on.

Edited March 15, 2005 by Azaruk

[+GlobalRat]

Obviously, the local site will be a great place to disseminate information, announce events, distribute brochures, offer Groundspeak goodies and so on.

Agree in principle, there are however finer points that have been lingering through the thread which concern me. Something like "Announce Events" I'd rather see on a Groundspeak forum if it pertains to Geocaching in any way or form. If this is done via another site then immediately South African cachers need to keep their eye's on two/three/four sites rather than one.

 

And if the intention is to sign up and have posts emailed... NO NO . I think that Geocaching.com do an excellent job of sending out one email a week. Too many similar type of sites start out with one odd email here and there, and before you know it there are 500 message in your inbox!!

 

I'd rather see a forum which lists a number of sites that would be of value to anyone geocaching in SA. Peter needs to jump in here as the forum leader, but there used to be a way that a forum could be posted that would always remain at the top of the list of the forums for that country. This can essentially be a one-liner for South Africa which recommends a number of sites which will provide additional resources on Geocaching in SA. These sites should also compliment each other so that a user doesn't get bombarded with the same information at every site he comes across and at the same time doesn't need to trawl through 20 different sites to get what he is looking for. Therefore perhaps we need some association of webmasters and even collaborate on creating and generating content etc.

 

I can agree with a site per province type scenario.... I guess I use my site as a very small platform for Gauteng , albeit it's current main aim is to provide provincial info and track the Challenge, and I hope it is of some value to cachers. I have had numerous requests from overseas cachers about the listing per province as often they may only visit a certain region of the country and they find this an easy reference and starting point.... some enhancements coming soon!! This however will become quite burdensome when we start hitting the 1000+ cache mark... hopefully by then I will have mastered PERL script or whatever the latest lingo is by then to plead at groundspeaks door for database access and make the process more streamlined and to provide better stats... No names here, but we all know what happened to a very valuable site in the US!!

 

In the long run, I'd like to build a comprehensive database of caches and cachers in South Africa with some great stats on caching activity. I have been liaising with webmasters across the world to get some more insight into this.

 

In my mind it's good to know who is in your area. The persons details as published at their discretion on Geocaching.com are sufficient in my mind, Province as a mandatory field would be nice though. If there are a number of sites that will provide the same service, I would then either concentrate on a Gauteng Cachers Association (Something like that) and then someone like Azaruk does KZN etc etc etc. I would also hope that SA being small enough that these webmasters could share and we could then build up a comprehensive and superb web community that is truly PROUDLY SOUTH AFRICAN ( knew I could use that somewhere ) Then again, maybe there should only be one site????

 

I think it is excellent that eventually we will have a local "Groundspeak" shop, tired of all those forays into the US and Europe to buy goodies. Does Geocacher.co.za want to run an all encompassing website that includes Stats as well as the shop etc?? As far as I'm aware, the trio of us all hold OTHER jobs and webwiffling is a quiet pastime.

 

Where my antibiotics.......................???

Edited March 15, 2005 by GlobalRat

[+geocacher_coza]

Globalrat

And if the intention is to sign up and have posts emailed... NO NO  . I think that Geocaching.com do an excellent job of sending out one email a week. Too many similar type of sites start out with one odd email here and there, and before you know it there are 500 message in your inbox!!

NO signings up, No email posting nothing. NO delicated website.

What I had in mind was not a website for this "association" I just thought that we can devote a page on our website towards this. We all decide what we would like to put in it and we all stick to the same format. Just a page telling newbie’s where to go, and who to contact. The rest can come later if we feel that we need to start speaking to the powers to be. We just get the ball on the roll! I have created an email address for this –gasa@geocacher.co.za Here we can put our info in and when someone new contacts this email address it will give them the info he requires to go to the geocaching.co website and some of the older members email addresses that he can get hold of. We can from now on include this email address on our stash notes, brochures and articles to magazines etc.

 

I think it is excellent that eventually we will have a local "Groundspeak" shop, tired of all those forays into the US and Europe to buy goodies. Does Geocacher.co.za want to run an all encompassing website that includes Stats as well as the shop etc?? As far as I'm aware, the trio of us all hold OTHER jobs and webwiffling is a quiet pastime.

No I do not want to run an encompassing website. It seems like our websites can complement each other perfectly. You doing a mighty fine job with the stats and I will stick to the information side on geocaching. I'm busy working on a total revamp of my site at the moment. My geocaching goodies should be here soon. They were posted out of the USA three weeks ago. It normally takes about three to four weeks to get here! My geoshop should be open by the end of March. I am planning to sell a bit more than just geogoodies. I have secured a Magellan dealership so I will be selling GPS as well. Also a lot of "other" stuff like Otter waterproof boxes (expensive but very good), Aquapac waterproof bags, Rite in the rain paper and notebooks! I'm trying to make my site a "one stop" South African geosite. My vision is to have a website with good info, photos and stories from geocachers in South Africa and then a geoshop. You will see that I have a future page for a forum as well but I have shelved that idea. I now have the same idea as you that we keep the forum with geocaching.com

These sites should also compliment each other so that a user doesn't get bombarded with the same information at every site he comes across and at the same time doesn't need to trawl through 20 different sites to get what he is looking for.

I think the way our websites are now is just fine and we complement each others site well. We should keep it this way! Edited March 15, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[+Whostops]

I have created an email address for this –gasa@geocacher.co.za

Email-- SAGA@geocacher.co.za.

Which is it

[+geocacher_coza]

We can call it the SAGA. South African Geocaching Association

maybe? Come up with some suggestions!

Email-- SAGA@geocacher.co.za.

That was a suggestion only.

As Azaruk pointed out. There is a lot of bodies that call themself SAGA. That is why I turned it around! Geocaching Association of South Africa. But if you have some other suggestions we can change it no problem!

Edited March 15, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[+Whostops]

OOps !!!

Sorry, I got half way through my post & pushed the wrong button.

Here is the full post.

 

I have created an email address for this –gasa@geocacher.co.za

Email-- SAGA@geocacher.co.za.

Which is it ?

 

The reason I ask is if you "Google" SAGA, you get.....

SAGA - South African Geophysical Association

SAGA --- The Southern African Grantmakers' Association

SAGA is an acronym for the SOUTH AFRICAN GUNOWNERS’ ASSOCIATION

SAGA - South African Golf Association

SAGA - South African Guide Dogs Association

 

and GASA .....

GASA - Geostatistical Association Of Southern Africa

GASA Football Club

GASA - GAY Association of South Africa

 

Please, not that I am trying to find fault in your work, but maybe we need an acronym that stands out ?????

[+geocacher_coza]

Ok lets get some more suggestions!

GASA - Geostatistical Association Of Southern Africa

GASA Football Club

GASA - GAY Association of South Africa

When I googled them only the first one came up! dont like to be associated with some of them!

[+geocacher_coza]

What about CAZA

Cachers Association of South Africa.

Caza also means "home" Our HOME South Africa!

[Azaruk]

I have also secured a deal with Magellan. I have discount cards available which the recipient keeps (credit-card size) entitling him/her to discounted equipment from the dealer principal here in KZN.

 

If anyone (in KZN) wants some cards for distribution, let me know.

 

I also envisage the page on my web site to be an 'information only' site, giving advice on how to join, how to play, guidelines, and special offers from suppliers such as Magellan, as well as contact details so that newbies can ask questions of a local cacher.

 

I don't seee my page as being a dynamic 'copy' of geocaching.com, but simply a KZN-specific information source. There would be links to other sites, principally: www.geocaching.com

[+Africard]

Wow - Hot topic with very valid views.

 

I sat back and listened (excuse the pun) to all comments before posting.

 

I feel very strongly that we do not need "rules" other than those posted on geocaching.com, nor a "governing body" or even more websites to monitor to keep updated. There are however a couple of good ideas in this post.

 

"Rules" will keep the game / sport from evolving and tie the players down, which in my opinion is not what I want from it. The basic set of guidelines has thus far been enough to keep us in line, while being "policed" by other players.

 

A "Governing Body" poses problems such as membership, subs, rules, meetings etc., etc., etc. I'm saying this because I've seen what happened to the entire fire-arm fiasco (I'm sure the SA cachers know what I'm talking about). Soon we will be paying to belong to a club / governing body / association.

 

Personally I feel geocaching.com is doing a great job and my first (and only) choice for keeping (me) updated, informed and playing.

[+geocacher_coza]

Africard

 

A "Governing Body" poses problems such as membership, subs, rules, meetings etc., etc., etc. I'm saying this because I've seen what happened to the entire fire-arm fiasco (I'm sure the SA cachers know what I'm talking about). Soon we will be paying to belong to a club / governing body / association

Like I have said before on this thread. The idea ia not to what you are talking about above! It must stay free, no membership, no subs, no rules-- just guidelines streamlined from the geocaching website to suite South Africa, no meetings, no websites.

WE have enough website that we can devote one page for general info to newbies etc.

Like erik88l-r

said:

I think you'll find that if (when?) park authorities start to regulate, or even ban, geocaches you'll want to form an organization. That allows you to negociate with them as representatives of a group, rather than as individuals.

 

Unfortunatly as the sport grows and local restictions crop up you'll also have to develop some rules for geocaching in South Africa. Hopefully those rules will parallel the general guidelines on the GC.com site and only have a few added ones like "physical geocaches are limited to a maximum of 12 at the XYZ Preserve by order of the park manager."

 

~erik~

What he wrote above is unfortunatly reality! I just think to may of you are thinking in the line of "fancy" associations etc. This is not the case! It should just be something that is there, that if we later need to start with negociations etc, we prepared!

Again like I said previously the GAGB are a good example of what we need! Just without the website and forums etc.

[+warthog]

To not harper on issues already said in this thread, I would like to suggest that we do look at publishing some guidelines around geocaching in South Africa somewhere on someones website.

 

The reason for saying this, is to be able to provide the overseas cacher that does come to South Africa with some information about do's and dont's on caching in South Africa and also to be able to publish a list of caching "buddies" for those who would like to make use of a local when going to find caches.

 

Also, (looking into the future) to publish a list of the Top ?? caches in specific areas/provinces, as there were previous threads asking for such information by overseas cachers.

[+geocacher_coza]

Just wondering

Why do most countries and areas have some sort of representation between the geocachers.....

What makes us so special that we do not need one?

PS. I'm most probably going to get myself hung for this remark

[Azaruk]

Because land managers think differently to cachers!

 

This is why I suggested that guidelines be published on a provincial basis.

 

We are fortunate here in KZN (so far) that we are looked upon as mostly harmless eccentrics, but with a social and ecological conscience.

 

But, that said - some land managers here are beginning to tighten up, and want to know more about the game, its 'rules' and whether the placement of a cache is going to cause problems, not because of the cache as such, but by hordes of heavy-footed people trampling through their ecologically sensitive bush areas.

 

It is essential that we, as the 'core' of South African cachers, modify the original guidelines to make them South Africa specific, with pertinent information regarding permissions on a province by province basis.

 

This will amount to nothing more than a page or two of web-based information containing contact names, addresses and information given to us by the relevant land managers.

 

In addition, links would be provided to local cachers who have volunteered to assist newbies, to liaise with land managers and to show the authorities that we are serious about the game, do not destroy their reserve areas, and are responsible people with a resposible attitude.

 

There will (hopefully) come a time when we have many, many more cachers playing the game in South Africa. In that case, we will need to show the authorities that there ae guidelines to playing the game, there is a code of ethics and that we intend no harm to the environment.

[+GlobalRat]

There will (hopefully) come a time when we have many, many more cachers playing the game in South Africa. In that case, we will need to show the authorities that there ae guidelines to playing the game, there is a code of ethics and that we intend no harm to the environment.

I still think these guidelines are quite clearly stated on Geocaching.com.

 

Come to think of it, what additional guidelines are there for South Africa which are not encompassed in the Guidelines on GC.com???

 

It already states that you shouldn’t harm the environment, may not place a cache in a restricted/security area, may not bury a cache, may need to request permission in certain areas, no harmful items in a cache, etc.

 

The only additional things I can see is something like, “The Kwa-Zulu Natal Parks Board has banned geocaching from all their reserves.” This is just a bulletin within a guideline which already exists on GC.com.

 

But I have to agree with Africard, what other “rules/guidelines” do we need?

 

There are at times caches which do not conform, but the whole system is reliant on the Geocaching community reporting those trespassing certain boundaries. Brick recently came across a cache in Kenya which actively suggested that one should carve your name into the nearby tree and take a picture. Clearly not in the spirit of conservation. The cache was reported to GC.com and was archived and only activated again after this suggestion was removed and it no infact states that you must NOT carve your name into the tree. Cachers in SA are loathe to take action on caches. The cleanup exercise we did recently is evidence of that. Of the 20 odd caches which we archived, only one has been re-instated. These caches just lay around with one DNF after another and no-one had the guts to give it that extra prod to ensure that the cache is either archived or that the cache owner is forced to take action.

 

The mechanisms and guidelines exist, they should be used, and common sense must prevail within those guidelines.

[+geocacher_coza]

Come to think of it, what additional guidelines are there for South Africa which are not encompassed in the Guidelines on GC.com???

First one that springs to mind is Ammo boxes! I don’t think it is a good idea in South Africa to place caches in Ammo boxes! Think about it. Walking down a path near the vaaldam wall with an ammo box! You will get your a£$%^&&**s shot off! Remember the news a year or two ago? The court case is still on the go! Extreme nutcases trying to blow up the vaaldam!

That is only one example.

"Planting" a cache in a "traditional previous disadvantage area"(have to stay politically correct!) --You drive in with your fancy 4x4, climb out with a ROLEX on your arm, fancy GPS in your hand! How long will you last? I don't think very long.

"Planting" a cache in Kruger national park--- you will become lion food!

"Planting" a cache on the shore or close to some of our rivers-- full of crocs and hippo's

Things like that

Edited March 17, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[+GlobalRat]

Come to think of it, what additional guidelines are there for South Africa which are not encompassed in the Guidelines on GC.com???

First one that springs to mind is Ammo boxes! I don’t think it is a good idea in South Africa to place caches in Ammo boxes! Think about it. Walking down a path near the vaaldam wall with an ammo box! You will get your a£$%^&&**s shot off! Remember the news a year or two ago? The court case is still on the go! Extreme nutcases trying to blow up the vaaldam!

That is only one example.

"Planting" a cache in a "traditional previous disadvantage area"(have to stay politically correct!) --You drive in with your fancy 4x4, climb out with a ROLEX on your arm, fancy GPS in your hand! How long will you last? I don't think very long.

"Planting" a cache in Kruger national park--- you will become lion food!

"Planting" a cache on the shore or close to some of our rivers-- full of crocs and hippo's

Things like that

Geocacher, in response I’ve quoted some lines direct from GC.com guidelines

 

The Vaal dam issue. Most large dam sites in the world are restricted areas, the wall and the immediate perimeter that is. The big fence and warning signs usually give it away. And from the guidelines, “Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):….. Caches near or under public structures deemed potential or possible targets for terrorist attacks. These include but are not limited to highway bridges, dams, government buildings, elementary and secondary schools, and airports.

 

The Ammo box thing is probably a fair point given our recent past. However, is this much different from hiding a tupperware box that has been camo’d???

 

Previously Disadvantaged Area…mmmmm….. The first step in placing a cache as per GC.com: “Research a cache location “. As a resident you should be aware of these areas and know what type of location you are entering.

 

Kruger park, there are two caches there….. And the big sign which says don’t get out of your vehicle except in designated areas is should be sufficient. Yes I know there are still idiots that get out and get noshed… the key word…idiots!!

 

Croc’s and hippos…mmm… “Research you cache location”

 

And finally from GC.com… as a cache owner “You are ultimately responsible for the cache so make sure you know the rules for the area where your cache is being placed.”

[+geocacher_coza]

WoW

Not going to win....am I?

Do you think a newbie is going to find everything on the GC.com site the first time around? If you did you're a very smart guy!

[Azaruk]

And finally from GC.com… as a cache owner “You are ultimately responsible for the cache so make sure you know the rules for the area where your cache is being placed.”

 

That is exactly why a South African info site is being suggested.

 

This forum thread is not about seeking approval from fellow cachers. The site will be built.

 

The site will be for information, not rules, not committees, not trying to change the way the game is played.

 

The final choice is yours - if you feel you want to know something specific or unique about the South African caching scene, go to the local page. If you have no need for that sort of information - go to geocaching.com.

 

The fact that there is an information site pertaining to South Africa will not affect your game play in the slightest.

[+Africard]

Gentlemen,

 

We are not going to agree on this. I replied to a not so recent post about carrying fire-arms when caching...needless to say the post went on and on with fors and againsts, with no winners.

 

I can clearly see that the web page is going to happen, whether we agree or not. That is not the point.

 

Personally, I do not want a regulatory authority, nor extra websites to monitor nor a club memebership. Explaining geocaching to muggles in power who have never even heard of geostatic satellites, but powerful enough to have a lot to say on how I play my game is definately not on.

 

I do want the sport / game to be free of binding and limiting rules and regulatory "censorship", control and all those things we do to make life more difficult.

 

I respect the rights of landowners and will explain to them why I want to put a cache on his land if necessary, but find following the simple guideline of easy public access easier, than trying to explain geocaching and all that goes with it. For this case it would be great to have specific guidelines to use, which we already have.

 

Forming an association with the inputs of the active members on this site is something that also needs serious thought. It will only address the needs of some.

 

I have, by going trough the entire post, not found one thing that was not addressed already in the geocaching.com site, and is still of the opninion that this is not needed.

[+geocacher_coza]

Africard/Globalrat

I started this thread because I needed some genuine input on something I wanted to put on my website. Well, yes I will go ahead with it.

Now to answer some of your concerns--and this have been answered more than once on this thread, but it seems like you are bent on not excepting any suggestions/improvements that other people would like to implement.

Personally, I do not want a regulatory authority, nor extra websites to monitor nor a club membership

More than once I have stated that it will not be a regulatory body, will not be extra websites, will not be memberships.This forum thread is not about seeking approval from fellow cachers. The site will be done.

This below is the quote from Azaruk as well:

The site will be for information, not rules, not committees, not trying to change the way the game is played.

 

The final choice is yours - if you feel you want to know something specific or unique about the South African caching scene, go to the local page. If you have no need for that sort of information - go to geocaching.com.

 

The fact that there is an information site pertaining to South Africa will not affect your game play in the slightest.

I will make space available on my website (I pay for that) Azaruk will make space available on his website for KZN (he pays for that). The "membership" will only be a invitation for people to submit their email addresses and some info about themselves to us. We will then publish this on the websites! Like this we will hopefully get some good photo/stories/adventures that people that geocache are prepared to share with other people.

It will only address the needs of some.

What do you mean with this statement?

If you and Globalrat are so bent against it why do you have a site dedicated to a travelbug race? Why do you not use this forum and geocaching.com to track this travelbugs? I tell you why, because it is easier for people to go to your site and check the progress. The same goes for Glabalrat. ALL the info that he has on his site is available on geocaching.com! Why do we need his site? I’ll tell you why! Because it is a GOOD site and gives us all the South African info with only a few clicks! And because it is a site by a South African for South Africans.NOW that is why we want this "association" I again hyphenate it because of the nature of how WE would like the association to be-- NO OFFICIAL ASSOCIATION, NO MEMBERSHIP FEES, NO EXTRA WEBSITES.

Edited March 18, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[Azaruk]

I can clearly see that the web page is going to happen, whether we agree or not. That is not the point.

 

Personally, I do not want a regulatory authority, nor extra websites to monitor nor a club memebership. Explaining geocaching to muggles in power who have never even heard of geostatic satellites, but powerful enough to have a lot to say on how I play my game is definately not on.

 

I do want the sport / game to be free of binding and limiting rules and regulatory "censorship", control and all those things we do to make life more difficult.

 

I respect the rights of landowners and will explain to them why I want to put a cache on his land if necessary, but find following the simple guideline of easy public access easier, than trying to explain geocaching and all that goes with it. For this case it would be great to have specific guidelines to use, which we already have.

 

Forming an association with the inputs of the active members on this site is something that also needs serious thought. It will only address the needs of some.

 

I have, by going trough the entire post, not found one thing that was not addressed already in the geocaching.com site, and is still of the opninion that this is not needed.

Can you, from the www.geocaching.com site only tell me what the cache placement policy is for Msinsi Holdings here in KZN? Without a phone call, or going to any other site, I doubt you can answer the question.

 

The local site will do just that.

 

It has been stated over and over again in this topic that the site is for information.

 

It is not and never will be a regulatory body, a club, a subscription site, a rule-book or anything else you guys are trying to read into this.

 

INFORMATION

 

Pure and simple.

 

And, as I have suggested before, if you don't see the need for the site, don't go there.

 

There was absolutely no need for geocacher_coza to even inform you of his intentions. He was looking for input. Instead, all he has received, apart from a couple of posts, is negativity.

 

Stick to geocaching.com if you so desire. The game is about choice - exercise your rights - don't visit the local site!

[+Brick]

There was absolutely no need for geocacher_coza to even inform you of his intentions. He was looking for input. Instead, all he has received, apart from a couple of posts, is negativity

 

Just like your first reply. A very angry one at that! (I say, tongue firmly in cheek)

 

I still believe www.geocaching.com is sufficient for finding out about rules and regulations. And after that, common sense prevails. I've seen caches here in SA that have warnings on them about watching out for snakes and nasties, so local conditions require local savvy, and none of these cachers needed a rulebook.

 

But like it has been said, nothing prevents you from setting up, yet another, site. IMHO, and in GlobalRat's defence, his site has been set up primarily for the GP Challenge, and the site grew from there.

[+Africard]

Seems I missed one or more of the answers...now I'm getting fried...

 

Anyway, this is exactly what happened on the fire-arms post. No winners and only mud flying around.

 

If you post a question do not expect everyone to agree. This post provoked good reaction and criticism, and should be used to yield positive results. Personal attacks on replies should not be tolerated.

 

Let me state it clearly again. I'm not against the web site - I have my own web site too! (The TB Race is tracked trough geocaching.com, updates are posted in this forum as well as on my own site - for the people interested in more).

 

I have personally congratulated both Globalrat and geocacher.co.za on their webs, and think they are doing a great job at it too. SA cachers needed a local supplier of geogoodies in SA - which I will definately support.

[+geocacher_coza]

Personal attacks on replies should not be tolerated.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh Who's attacking you???

NOT ONE of my answers have been a personal attack on anybody!

If you and Globalrat are so bent against it why do you have a site dedicated to a travelbug race? Why do you not use this forum and geocaching.com to track this travelbugs? I tell you why, because it is easier for people to go to your site and check the progress. The same goes for Glabalrat. ALL the info that he has on his site is available on geocaching.com! Why do we need his site? I’ll tell you why! Because it is a GOOD site and gives us all the South African info with only a few clicks! And because it is a site by a South African for South Africans.

If you can read that you will see that I have actualy complemented your website (and globalrat's one.) I'm a firm believer there are a place for everyone!

So what is your problem???????????????????????????????????????????????? I really do not understand YOUR outburst!

Maybe it IS time to set up an alternative forum where everybody’s opinion are looked at in the perspective that it was wrote in-- and not in the typical way of ----"maybe I will get knocked off my little pedestal" Again this statement is not a attack toward anybody.

My personal thought on ALL the comments you wrote is a one of amazement! Clearly you do not want to see both sides of the coin. How many times are you going to speak about more websites, regulatory bodies etc. when you have been told more than once in this thread that this was not what I had in mind!

But like it has been said, nothing prevents you from setting up, yet another, site. IMHO, and in GlobalRat's defence, his site has been set up primarily for the GP Challenge, and the site grew from there.

Brick---NEVER did I criticise Globalrats site. Please read what I said about this site. All I did was to point out the similarities about what I proposed (and being crucified for) and what Globalrats site gives us. And for that matter my site as well. If we have the attitude of the geocaching.com site is enough then surely we (Globalrat, Africard and I) should not have sites!

The same goes for Globalrat. ALL the info that he has on his site is available on geocaching.com! Why do we need his site? I’ll tell you why! Because it is a GOOD site and gives us all the South African info with only a few clicks! And because it is a site by a South African for South Africans.

[+Brick]

I have to agree with the amazement comment. I think you should come home, then I'll pour you a very tall, very cold Castle and we can discuss all this, because THESE posts are going nowhere other than to infuriate. Point is I only read the sentence "If you and Globalrat are so bent against it why do you have a site dedicated to a travelbug race? " up to there and got upset....my mistake, but that is what percolated coffee in huge doses do to me.

 

I think you should quietly go ahead with the guidlines (note, I did not use RULES now...). I think from a newbees perspective, that is what they need.

[+geocacher_coza]

Take you up on the beer offer... only I drink Windhoek! We will orginize a publunch or someting soon!

[+Brick]

oooooooo now we can start a fresh new fight !!

[+warthog]

Can you let me know the date and time of this fight. I can like to be the judge. While I'm there, please get me a Castle Enjoy the weekend!!!

[+geocacher_coza]

OK when?

I'll be home next week 24 March. Need to catch up on a bit of homework!!

The following week should be OK!

[+GlobalRat]

Sjeeeees... I gotta stay online.....

 

Just a few straighteners:-

 

I don't believe Africard and myself are being negative.... consulting term is constructive criticism

 

I'm not against a set of local guidelines where they are valid. And I think Azaruk's example of Msinsi Holdings is a valid one, and I welcome seeing that: and once again to quote the guidelines "In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). There are many local caching organizations that would be able to help you out with those regulations. Perhaps I should have quoted this earlier to stem some of this mud slinging .....eeerrrrr discussion...

 

The same goes for Glabalrat. ALL the info that he has on his site is available on geocaching.com! Why do we need his site? I’ll tell you why! Because it is a GOOD site and gives us all the South African info with only a few clicks! And because it is a site by a South African for South Africans.

True... although determining the province for each cache will require you to look at each cache's map.... and recently some of those have been pointing to places like Detroit. But thanks for the compliment Geocacher.co.za. And I think you have made a very valid point here.... ease of use. While Buxley was still happily updating I always referred there first as it was easier and quicker than GC.com to see if there were any new caches. Saffers are clever buggers, if we can make things easier and quicker we will, and I'll support that anytime!!

 

Do you think a newbie is going to find everything on the GC.com site the first time around? If you did you're a very smart guy!

 

Now before I even reply to this one Geocacher.co.za, I'm not trying to be funny or anything, so please don't shoot me down. I feel that GC.com have done everything reasonable in presenting these guidelines, and they are very easily available, and I just want to illustrate that for the benefit of everyone. My question all along has really been what additional guidelines are required for SA??

And I fully agree with Azaruk's comment, and this is even proposed on GC.com that a local site should list any additional regulations which are not covered by or not clear enough on GC.com, therefore the Msinsi example is valid, but the example of Vaal dam in my mind is not as it is covered in GC.com (Constructive criticism). I would therefore suggest to Azaruk and Geocacher.co.za, and to myself and anyone else who creates a site regarding Geocaching in SA to link the guidelines on GC.com to their site. But back to illustrating the ease of the guidelines on GC.com. On the front page of GC.com, the very first item on the menu on the top left hand side of the page is " Getting Started". This lists a whole bunch of stuff. Towards the bottom is a section titled "Geocaching Guides" and the second item underneath this is "Guide to hiding a cache". Clicking on this opens a step by step guide on hiding a cache. In Step 1, you will see a link to "Review the guidelines" which tells you the rest by cache type and physical caches in general.

 

Now if a newbie missed that "PLEASE NOTE I'M JUST ILLUSTRATING AND NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY", and they clicked on "Hide and Seek a cache" assuming their intention is to hide a cache, they would find the very same links on that page highlighted on the right hand side and linked by "read the guidelines for reporting a cache " and "Help! How do I place a cache?

 

We have a quick tutorial to help you create your first cache."

 

Here are the two URLS for everyones benefit:-

 

Quick Tutorial

 

GC.com Guidelines

 

Perhaps we all got the wrong end of the stick on this thread. In summary then. I think that along with some local advice which as per the Msinsi example, I think is valid and will be valuable to all local cachers these links should be incorporated and users referred to the GC.com guidelines, along with local advice.

 

And while I think Geocacher.co.za's comment on the PDA's is very valid, I hope that one day we will see caches in these areas and be able to visit them freely!

 

Africard/Globalrat

I started this thread because I needed some genuine input on something I wanted to put on my website. Well, yes I will go ahead with it.

 

And input you have received! Perhaps not what you expected, but let me highlight the following that has come out of the thread, which I think has been quite constructive:-

 

1. It is clear that it is fealt that GC.com guidelines are sufficient in most respects.

2. What we seek as South African Geocachers is not a repetition of guidelines as per GC.com

3. We do seek local information of value

4. As South African Geocachers we are appreciating the services provided by local sites as they are of better value to us

 

Personally I think that has given you quite a bit to think about in setting up your guidelines. In addition I have no objection if you are still creating that brochure which may include the GC.com guidelines as well as those local guidelines. Once your online shop is up and running (looking forward to that), you will receive much traffic and the exposure of guidelines to the community will be an added benefit to the sport. I can guarantee that the majority of cachers haven't read those GC.com guidelines properly. This can only help to improve the caching experience in SA. I also think that once this is established you will start receiving input as it comes along

 

I can also assure you that as soon as I am confronted with a situation where an organisation says "no caches here mate", I'll not only post it on a forum, but I shall also let the relevant webmasters know so that they can include such information for the benefit of other SA cachers, and I therefore thank you for this service.

 

We're all striving for the same thing! We want sites which compliment GC.com for the South African cacher. But we don't want to create parallel systems and decentralise the Geocaching community.... I think we've laboured this enough and reached consensus!

 

Now, to get out of workshop mode!! I will have to side with Geocacher.co.za in the Windhoek corner. But while in France I discovered just the thing that makes a Castle drinkable....barely

Edited March 18, 2005 by GlobalRat

[+geocacher_coza]

Personally I think that has given you quite a bit to think about in setting up your guidelines. In addition I have no objection if you are still creating that brochure which may include the GC.com guidelines as well as those local guidelines. Once your online shop is up and running (looking forward to that), you will receive much traffic and the exposure of guidelines to the community will be an added benefit to the sport. I can guarantee that the majority of cachers haven't read those GC.com guidelines properly. This can only help to improve the caching experience in SA. I also think that once this is established you will start receiving input as it comes along

Globalrat.

You have valid points about the GC.com website. It is pretty informative and it should be your first stop when starting the game!

My idea was not to include the GC.com guideline as it is there already! I was going to have prominent hyperlinks to the Geocaching.com site. All we need is to have a "few" guidelines that are more specific South African. THAT’S ALL. We do not need more, and to many repetition. As it is my website will include the GC creed and etiquette so there is no need for more than just a few general South African guidelines. There will not be any new forum or anything like that. Shortcuts will be added taking you directly to the Groundspeak forum main page and geocaching FAQ page. My “vision” is to have an informative page and sub pages for the various provinces with info on specific problem on province level and then just photos, stories etc that is submitted by the cachers. My thinking is to have a membership form as well --- again something simple with just name and telephone number and geocaching username.( NO membership fees) The reason I would like to get this going is that, when we one day have to start speaking to landowners and authorities the first question they will ask is: who are you and who do you represent? If we can produce a “membership list” that represents the geocaching community we should then be taken seriously (I hope!!!)

But back to illustrating the ease of the guidelines on GC.com. On the front page of GC.com, the very first item on the menu on the top left hand side of the page is “Getting Started". This lists a whole bunch of stuff. Towards the bottom is a section titled "Geocaching Guides" and the second item underneath this is "Guide to hiding a cache". Clicking on this opens a step by step guide on hiding a cache. In Step 1, you will see a link to "Review the guidelines" which tells you the rest by cache type and physical caches in general.

 

Now if a newbie missed that "PLEASE NOTE I'M JUST ILLUSTRATING AND NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY", and they clicked on "Hide and Seek a cache" assuming their intention is to hide a cache, they would find the very same links on that page highlighted on the right hand side and linked by "read the guidelines for reporting a cache " and "Help! How do I place a cache?

 

We have a quick tutorial to help you create your first cache."

No my constructive criticism---- Yes everything are there. BUT you only have to go to Groundspeak ForumsGetting Started

to see that newbies don't read all this. On the treads you will see that the same question is asked over and over again! When you get to the Getting Started bit you will see the tread Pinned: Read First! Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions Now on the thread GFAQ you will find just about everything you need to know. Couple that with the info on the GC.com homepage info and shortcuts you will think that a newbie will know what to do, YES? Well now for the rude awakening--- they still do not know and still do not read first! Just on the first page of the getting started section you will find 7 questions by, what I assume are newbies, about GPS (how to improve accuracy of caches etc)

Well enough said! Everybody thank you for all the input. I have started working on a extension of my site that will be called GASA. AND here is something I have put prominent on the front page that should put this statement by Globalrat to ease.

We're all striving for the same thing! We want sites which compliment GC.com for the South African cacher. But we don't want to create parallel systems and decentralise the Geocaching community

This is what will be included on the webpage:Let's start with what we are NOT. We are not an official governing body. We do not make the rule or enforcers. We ARE a group of outdoor-minded people who like to geocache and want to help others do the same. Please note that this webpage is not intended to compete with other websites, it is our aim to provide a cohesive representation for cachers.

 

Once your online shop is up and running (looking forward to that)

The parcel with good is somewhere between the states and SA. I getting a bit worried now as it was posted three weeks ago!

Edited March 19, 2005 by geocacher_coza

[+GlobalRat]

Yes everything are there. BUT you only have to go to Groundspeak ForumsGetting Started

to see that newbies don't read all this

 

As I stated

 

I can guarantee that the majority of cachers haven't read those GC.com guidelines properly.

 

Then again, I don't know how you gonna force them to read it anywhere else. This is the only reason I suggested you include them in the brochure (which I may have incorrectly assumed will be a downloadable pdf or something), more exposure.

 

I think is valid and will be valuable to all local cachers these links should be incorporated and users referred to the GC.com guidelines, along with local advice

 

I said LINKS.....Nuff said.........

 

Oh well, time to move onto other things... Welcome to the world of customs and shipping!! Dunno what size box/s you are shipping but you could wait months for that stuff to be slotted onto a container. Average shipping time to SA is about 6 weeks though so don't fret yet!

Edited March 19, 2005 by GlobalRat