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The Problems In Harriman


brian b

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I spent a wonderful 4.5 miles today retrieving two more of my Shelter caches, and once again, I am absolutely amazed that the state is governing our hobby and not the real nuances out there.

 

Let me explain.

 

As I am approaching Bald Rocks Shelter, I smell smoke. Not an uncommon occurance, especially since the temperature was hovering around 30, quite a bit of snow on the ground, and the shelter was about .12 mile away. But as I got closer, I began to see trees cut two feet from the ground. I saw many trees, or what used to be live trees (yes, they were in fact live when they were cut . . . .) no longer. It seems that the firewood was scarce, and people needed to burn.

 

So, I circle around, grab the cache without being seen, then head up to the shelter. Four older hikers (and I am using this term liberally, as they were older than I -- which hints that they SHOULD have known better) were busy cutting live branches off a live tree they had dragged into the shelter. (Hence, why all the smoke -- live wood tends to smoke much more than dead wood does.)

 

If the powers that be are so hell-bent on our little hobby destroying the enviornment, why in the world aren't they taking care of that which is more destructive?

 

And no. I did not say anything to the foursome. I simply put my pack back on and left. Angry.

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Perhaps the difference is that the ignorant green wood burners didn't post an internet web page saying "we will be chopping down live trees and burning them on Sunday March 13th at Latitude X, Longitude Y." By playing our game in the open and in an organized way, geocachers are easier targets than many other land management issues that are more serious but for which the solutions are more difficult.

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Yeah man, I hear ya.

 

A few months ago i was at West Mountain Shelter Grabin' your cache and saw two guys with a small axe cutting off small trees about 1-3 inch diameter. I was pretty pissed cause they left an obvious small patch of cut growth to the south of the shelter.

I too wish the park would clamp down on it but i don't see what they could do with the exception of wlaking around PATROLING more of the park. Anyway thanx for bringing this to our attention Brian.

Peace

 

p.s. we will hit the trails soon.

Peace

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Or all the "less desirables" encountered on some hikes in Harriman, specifically those we stumbled upon (and their paraphernalia) during a large group hike last year.

 

We're out there and 99.9% of what we're doing is hiking on the trails, which is what they are there for.

 

I remember a hike last year in Harriman where an entire portion of the trail was littered with broken beer bottles, coolers (I think one still had food in it) , cans of beer. etc all by a group going to one of the shelters. We actually ran into StayFloopy coming the other way in that exact area. It was a trail of crap a good way along the trail. But yes, us evil hikes/cachers are the ones they should spend their time on. There was more litter on that one stretch of trail on that one day then all the caches in Harriman combined.

 

Stupid waste of resources. The fact that we're known and "out there" should make it even less important for them to try and manage what we do because they can monitor it. Just because they can't see all the gay sexual activity or partying posted on a web set doesn't make it not exist. I wonder though, if there's was a site for gay hookups, would they lobby that the individuals go to the office first and get a sticker for their pecker?

Edited by Team DEMP
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Or all the "less desirables" encountered on some hikes in Harriman, specifically those we stumbled upon (and their paraphernalia) during a large group hike last year.

 

We're out there and 99.9% of what we're doing is hiking on the trails, which is what they are there for.

 

I remember a hike last year in Harriman where an entire portion of the trail was littered with broken beer bottles, coolers (I think one still had food in it) , cans of beer. etc all by a group going to one of the shelters. We actually ran into StayFloopy coming the other way in that exact area. It was a trail of crap a good way along the trail. But yes, us evil hikes/cachers are the ones they should spend their time on. There was more litter on that one stretch of trail on that one day then all the caches in Harriman combined.

 

Stupid waste of resources. The fact that we're known and "out there" should make it even less important for them to try and manage what we do because they can monitor it. Just because they can't see all the gay sexual activity or partying posted on a web set doesn't make it not exist. I wonder though, if there's was a site for gay hookups, would they lobby that the individuals go to the office first and get a sticker for their pecker?

I had put that out of my head Dave!!!

 

I think Keystone hit the nail on the head, we can be easily monitered so therefore we are easy targets. Just the nature of the beast.

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If I saw that kind of illegal activity I would report it. The number for the park police is on the back of the Trail Conference map. Yes the rangers do not do foot patrols, but they are obligated to respond to incidents that are reported to them. It might be necessary to follow up and file a complaint in person, but this could be done at the small office in Tiorati. It does little good to relate this information here, it needs to be reported at the time it is observed, so something can be done about it. That is part of the problem, that people see this kind of activity and do nothing about it.

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Absolutely file a complaint. Let them know you're a cacher while you're at it. It's important that they know we are not a burden, but an asset to the park system.

 

I called the police today to report ATVers at a park near me. Felt good to rate the little punks out.

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Perhaps the difference is that the ignorant green wood burners didn't post an internet web page saying "we will be chopping down live trees and burning them on Sunday March 13th at Latitude X, Longitude Y."  By playing our game in the open and in an organized way, geocachers are easier targets than many other land management issues that are more serious but for which the solutions are more difficult.

That's the key. Geocaching is easy pickings for them. Never mind that while they're sending out a team of rangers to confiscate a concealed Tupperware container, a short distance away ATVers are ripping up trails, teens are having a little beer party and smashing their empties on rocks and some handyman is backing up his pickup and dumping the debris from his bathroom rennovation at a trailhead. I won't even go into the activities that go on around Turkey Swamp Lake that make the area unsuitable for families to use the park.

 

Rather than going after the serious violations, they pick on geocaching because its easy and they can sit back at the end of the day smugly satisfied that they've done ther part to "protect" our forests from this scourge.

Edited by briansnat
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And no. I did not say anything to the foursome. I simply put my pack back on and left. Angry.

I probably wouldn't have confronted 4 men with an axe either, but it really should have been reported right away. Complaining here didn't do anything to solve the problem. Calling the rangers would have.

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3521744d-2b27-4e3e-8fd5-01b0b7253c19.jpg

 

How many caches would it take to make this kind of mess. Photo from Norvin Green. Priorities are skewed. This tempest in a teapot mentality loses sight of one real factor and that is that the community seemingly is very much concerned about impacts and environmental issues. And no that is not an ammo can in the back.

Edited by Packanack
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Or all the "less desirables" encountered on some hikes in Harriman, specifically those we stumbled upon (and their paraphernalia) during a large group hike last year.

 

We're out there and 99.9% of what we're doing is hiking on the trails, which is what they are there for.

 

I remember a hike last year in Harriman where an entire portion of the trail was littered with broken <a href="beer%20bottles" onmouseover="window.status='beer bottles'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">beer bottles</a>, coolers (I think one still had food in it) , cans of beer. etc all by a group going to one of the shelters. We actually ran into StayFloopy coming the other way in that exact area. It was a trail of crap a good way along the trail. But yes, us evil hikes/cachers are the ones they should spend their time on. There was more litter on that one stretch of trail on that one day then all the caches in Harriman combined.

 

Stupid waste of resources. The fact that we're known and "out there" should make it even less important for them to try and manage what we do because they can monitor it. Just because they can't see all the gay sexual activity or partying posted on a web set doesn't make it not exist. I wonder though, if there's was a site for gay hookups, would they lobby that the individuals go to the office first and get a sticker for their pecker?

When I had told my wife about the cahe regulation in NY she said one thing, "What about 'Hairy-man'"

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The example of Norvin Green shown above is of a New Jersey State Park, which is a prime example of what a laisser faire attitude of land mangement leads to. Are you offering this as an model of what happens when a park system makes no tangible attempt to control dumping, illegal ORV use, geocaching or much of anything else? NY State Parks do have these kind of problems, but on no where near the scale of New Jersey Parks.

 

I would rather have a park make efforts at enforcement than not, even if it negatively impacts me. A speeder who is pulled over might ask why the police aren't out catching real criminals, but this is merely self serving. If waste dumpers posted the details of their dumping on a website, they would be easier to identify. Illicit sexual activity goes on every where, park rangers would be stirring up a hornet's nest if they made sweeps through the park picking up homosexuals. There aren't groups of rangers in Harriman collecting up illegal geocaches, just a few zealous individual rangers. Personally, I'd rather have a zealous ranger than one who sits in their truck all day eating donuts. Let's not blow this permit business up out of proportion, there is no pogrom underway, and all the problems in NY State parks are not the result of geocache regulation.

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Personally, I'd rather have a zealous ranger than one who sits in their truck all day eating donuts.

 

I'd rather have zealous rangers channeling their efforts into real problems. They constantly complain about their limited resources and to waste them on Tupperware hidden in the woods is foolish.

 

The example of Norvin Green shown above is of a New Jersey State Park, which is a prime example of what a laisser faire attitude of land mangement leads to.

 

I've seen similar things in other state's parks, including NY.

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Are you offering this as an model of what happens when a park system makes no tangible attempt to control dumping, illegal ORV use, geocaching or much of anything else?ed

 

No I was offering this as an example of a type of irresponsible user group. My experience and my "sense" tells me that Geocachers and Hikers usually do not fall into irresponsible user groups. Mid night dumpers in my estimation almost always fall into an irresponsible user group, capable of doing far more damage, thus requiring far more attention. Proportionality, a concept lost to the ages--now it is a dog and pony show. all sizzle no steak, all blow and no go. Minor issue, minor response or no response needed because it was a manufactured issue to begin with. Adequate private sector safeguards were in place through the website and the community, therefore expensive public resources need not be diverted to the activity. I can just see some ranger at Harriman volunteering to go after caches like the rest of us, just because it is fun. Supervisor, I need a volunteer to go after caches, and they all say they want to do it.

 

The issue of how the DEPE in NJ responds to user groups is a different issue.

Edited by Packanack
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