Atm ?

[+geocamper]

Not sure if this is in the rules, did search but could not find anything, what or is there any rules about hiding a cache close to an ATM Machine, you know the ones out in the middle or side of the parking lot. I know when I use an ATM I don't like strangers lurking around looking suspicious, seems kind of dangerous and if there are no rules about this then there should be!

[+Sagefox]

Looks like you answered your own question. I would not like to search for a geocache near an atm.

[dampeoples]

I would use common sense here. For instance, there have recently been some robberies at ATM machines by some guy in a skeleton mask, not a good idea to hide a cache now (Raleigh, NC), but in othr areas, maybe so.

[Keystone]

Since the ATM is private property, if I was reviewing a submission at such a location, I'd likely ask for you to state on your cache page that you've obtained permission from the bank that owns the ATM. Also remember that ATM's are often under the watchful eye of security cameras.

[+geocamper]

I found a cache that was in a lamppost that is right behind an ATM Machine, within 10 feet, on the edge of the parking lot, not on bank property It seemed kind of dangerous looking at the gps in my hand and sneaking around behind the ATM Machine while people were coming up to use the ATM. WE waited for people to leave but as we started looking around people just kept driving up and looking at us funny. I just thought there might be some rule for this, there seemed to be lots of other lamp post in the area, why put it that close to the ATM? I wanted to just drive off and forget it but the kids wanted to find one since we had just lost out on 2 micro's that we couldn't find.

[CoyoteRed]

Since the ATM is private property, if I was reviewing a submission at such a location, I'd likely ask for you to state on your cache page that you've obtained permission from the bank that owns the ATM. Also remember that ATM's are often under the watchful eye of security cameras.

Yeah? So what? Wal-Mart lamp posts are private property and often are under video surveillance.

[Captain Chaoss]

Since the ATM is private property, if I was reviewing a submission at such a location, I'd likely ask for you to state on your cache page that you've obtained permission from the bank that owns the ATM.  Also remember that ATM's are often under the watchful eye of security cameras.

Yeah? So what? Wal-Mart lamp posts are private property and often are under video surveillance.

Haven't heard of anybody robbing lamp posts yet, or people visiting them.

[CoyoteRed]

Since the ATM is private property, if I was reviewing a submission at such a location, I'd likely ask for you to state on your cache page that you've obtained permission from the bank that owns the ATM.  Also remember that ATM's are often under the watchful eye of security cameras.

Yeah? So what? Wal-Mart lamp posts are private property and often are under video surveillance.

Haven't heard of anybody robbing lamp posts yet, or people visiting them.

So? I was pointing out the reasons KA mentioned to look harder at an ATM cache can be applied to a lamp post, too.

 

I, also, might remind you the guy that abducted and then killed that Wal-mart employee was caught on video hanging out in front of the Wal-mart. Don't think you're on video? How many times have we heard about parents getting charged for child abuse for smacking their kid and a store surveillance footage is used against them?

 

This sounds like another case of selective use of the rules guidelines.

[CoyoteRed]

I know when I use an ATM I don't like strangers lurking around looking suspicious, seems kind of dangerous and if there are no rules about this then there should be!

While I don't see the draw of hiding a cache at an ATM anymore than hiding it on a lamp post, I don't see anything wrong with it in regards with your concerns.

 

Limiting cache placement because of what others might think about your activity would greatly limit a good number of decent, interesting caches. The odd looks are probably nothing different than the odd looks many of get in many situations where muggles observe our searches.

[+Gambrinus & Crew]

Since the ATM is private property, if I was reviewing a submission at such a location, I'd likely ask for you to state on your cache page that you've obtained permission from the bank that owns the ATM. Also remember that ATM's are often under the watchful eye of security cameras.

I was glad to see this thread this morning. I've always wondered what constituted "private" property. Obviously, someone's yard is their private property, but there are lots of caches on commercial property (lampposts in parking lots, land in business parks, patches of woods near malls, etc.) and that is owned by someone other than the city, county, or state, too. As such, it is private property.

 

Given how many of these types of caches exist, I always just assumed that "private", as GC.com defines it, refers to land owned by private citizens. Now that you refer to the ATM as private property, I don't get it.

 

So what exactly does GC.com consider to be "private" property?

 

Thanks for edumacating me,

Gambrinus

[+sbell111]

While I think its obvious that you shouldn't hide a cache on an ATM, I don't see anything wrong with hiding one in view of one. What's the worst case scenario, you're caught on tape NOT doing anything illegal?

[bug and snake]

I am not sure that this should be a 'private-property/not-private-property' discussion. Is it not a matter of whether hiding a cache close to an ATM is likely to bring a call to the police?

'There is a suspicious character doing suspicious things in a suspicious manner alongside the ATM'

 

I am well aware that there are some who will say 'So what? We are not doing anything illegal!' That is not important if we block someone from using the machine to get some money for groceries or to take the kids to the movies. Just having someone wandering around trying to look invisible close to an ATM would be a very suspicious thing in my mind. I know about caching but I am still not going up to the stranger staring into the middle distance and whistling out of tune to ask if he is a geocacher or a mugger.

 

To be quite silly about the whole thing - OK, it's perhaps NOT illegal, but I don't think there is a specific law regarding picking ones nose. If someone did that along side you in a restaurant..........

 

I can, therefor I will is not good enough, it's a case of civic responsibility, not specific legislation. Civic responsibility is what leads to less laws and restrictions on ones actions.

[+sbell111]

Civic responsibilty? Now we're not supposed to wander around in public? Why don't we just stay home with the blinds closed?

 

I agree with you that the police might be called. So what? Anytime we are out looking for a cache in public, someone might think we are suspicious and call the police. Personally, I have nothing to fear from a few pointed questions from the police.

 

Regarding you issue about blocking people from using the ATM, that wasn't specified in the original post.

[+sept1c_tank]

...What's the worst case scenario, you're caught on tape NOT doing anything illegal?

The worst case scenario would be: you're looking for a cache near an ATM while someone is attemptiong to rob it...the bad guy sees you and puts a bullet in your head.

[+sbell111]

That would leave a mark.

[+Kai Team]

I think this falls under avoiding causing disruptions or public alarm. It partly depends on context - where's the ATM? How close is the cache to the ATM? Is the presence of the cache, or those seeking it, likely to cause disruptions or public alarm?

 

Let's face it, a stranger lurking near an ATM is more alarming than a stranger lurking under a lamp post in a Walmart parking lot (i.e. many more people are robbed at ATM's than are kidnapped from Walmart parking lots).

 

Personally, I think that unless there's something special right near the ATM (a scenic view, an historic site, etc), the question is not "Should you?", but "Why would you?"

[bug and snake]

Civic responsibilty?  Now we're not supposed to wander around in public?  Why don't we just stay home with the blinds closed?

 

I agree with you that the police might be called.  So what?  Anytime we are out looking for a cache in public, someone might think we are suspicious and call the police.  Personally, I have nothing to fear from a few pointed questions from the police.

 

Regarding you issue about blocking people from using the ATM, that wasn't specified in the original post.

Civic responsibility?

There is something wrong with that?

 

Now we're not supposed to wander around in public?

How did you get to that from what I said?

 

Why don't we just stay home with the blinds closed?

Well, you seem to have such a short sighted outlook on the thing that it might not matter in your case.

 

.....the police might be called. So what?

Personally, I have nothing to fear from a few pointed questions from the police.

Neither do I. Neither do most of us. Don't particularly want such a thing though. The sport of caching doesn't need this sort of thing going on either.

 

Regarding you (sic) issue about blocking people from using the ATM, that wasn't specified in the original post.

A perfect example of what I was trying to say regarding civic responsibility versus more laws. It is an attitude like you are displaying here that makes it necessary to have laws forbidding people from doing things. The concept was introduced in the original post to all who are not hairsplitters. In fact, it seems, to me, to be the very point of the original post.

 

You and I obviously have a different idea of what is right and wrong, but that's OK

 

This from your profile page - I don't think it goes along with what you say in response to my post..... You seem to have have your own creed, but then, there is no law to say that you can't!

 

sbell111's The Geocacher's Creed

 

When placing or seeking geocaches, I will:

1) Use my brain.

2) Try to make the game fun for others

3) Try not to be too full of myself

 

The post by Kai Team quotes the OTHER Geocachers Creed and, particularly in their final paragraph, catches the essence of this matter perfectly.

Edited March 13, 2005 by bug and snake

[+sbell111]

and somehow this thread became about the creed...

 

By your logic, there should be no urban caches. After all, anytime we search for a cache in a public area, the police may be called.

 

My position on this issue is simple, if a person thinks a cache is a worthy hide and it meets the guidelines, I fully support it being hidden.

 

If anyone is uncomfortable searching for any cache, skip it.

 

This thread has nothing to do with civic responsibility. I have no civic responsibility to remain out of the public eye for fear that someone may not know what I'm doing.

 

And that 'other' creed, bah.

[+Kai Team]

My position on this issue is simple... I have no civic responsibility...

Well said!

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

It's a good question. Recently, while on vacation, I was taking some picures of Travel Bugs near a fountain that contained coins -- not quite an ATM. Anyhow, as I was snapping the photo, a Police Officer stood right beside me and asked "What's this all about?" -- it was at night in a city and he had his hand on his gun.

 

Of course, all worked out well and there was no problem once he realized I wasn't stealing fountain coins. I wasn't too freaked out, but the fact is that he treated me with suspicion.

 

Now...if I was lurking around and feeling around an ATM machine, the explaination might be more involved. Also, if I turned around quickly with an object in my hand (GPSr) then the gun may have been drawn and the situation even more tense. People make mistakes and I suppose the extreme situation would be someone getting shot. (not very likely though)

 

So.... I guess if I decided to place a cache near an ATM (which I wouldn't), then I would at least warn the would-be cachers to exercise caution and care in their efforts in seeking it.

 

Placing caches in areas where searching may be considered suspicious activity should be carefully considered. My list would include:

 

Military Base Perimiters

Police Stations

Hospitals

Banks

Clinics and Shelters

Airports

Shipping Ports

Railyards

Playgrounds and Daycare Facilities

 

I suppose the list could go on to the point of paranoia, but some caution should be exercised IMHO

[+sbell111]

My position on this issue is simple... I have no civic responsibility...

Well said!

So basically, not only do you take other's work, but you twist it to your own ends. It's sad, really.

[+sbell111]

...Now...if I was lurking around and feeling around an ATM machine, the explaination might be more involved. ...

Perhaps we should define what the OP meant as 'near an ATM'. Your post seems like you are talking about on the machine, while I took it to be 'in view of' the ATM.

 

Interestingly, I've found caches at 4 of the locations you mentioned in your list and enjoyed them all.

 

Also, does this thread remind anyone else of last month's 'caching in DC' thread?

[bug and snake]

and somehow this thread became about the creed...

 

By your logic, there should be no urban caches.  After all, anytime we search for a cache in a public area, the police may be called.

 

My position on this issue is simple, if a person thinks a cache is a worthy hide and it meets the guidelines, I fully support it being hidden.

 

If anyone is uncomfortable searching for any cache, skip it.

 

This thread has nothing to do with civic responsibility.  I have no civic responsibility to remain out of the public eye for fear that someone may not know what I'm doing.

 

And that 'other' creed, bah.

and somehow this thread became about the creed...

Strange how one so dead set on splitting hairs and at the same time demanding exact definition in the arguments of others is so unwilling to be quoted from his own profile page! When one takes the stand that you have, and posts it on ones profile page, then that will happen.

 

By your logic, there should be no urban caches. After all, anytime we search for a cache in a public area, the police may be called.

As I have said before, 'How did you get to that from what I said?'

 

My position on this issue is simple, if a person thinks a cache is a worthy hide and it meets the guidelines, I fully support it being hidden.

No one has a problem with that, if it meets the guidelines!

 

This thread has nothing to do with civic responsibility. I have no civic responsibility to remain out of the public eye for fear that someone may not know what I'm doing.

Neither have I, if that were all there was to a situation. However, I do feel a responsibility to others as far as not hanging around an ATM and possibly frightening away a person who wished to use the machine and who may be wondering if I was there to mug them when they drew their cash out. (similar restrictions apply in my mind as far as schools and various other facilities are concerned)

 

And that 'other' creed, bah.

No more need be said then..... 'Civic responsibility is obviously not a responsibility for you.' (with apologies to Joe Rogan)

Edited March 14, 2005 by bug and snake

[+geocamper]

I see there are some that understand and some that don't, the point I think I was trying to make is that by hiding the cache in that spot, that close to an atm makes the people using the atm feel maybe a little threatened by my presence even though I'm doing nothing wrong. I have enjoyed every hunt that I have gone on but I don't like to make other people feel threatened by my choice of activity since they have no control over it, Just like smoking, I would not smoke in someone's home if they did not like smoke, It's called RESPECT!

[bug and snake]

I see there are some that understand and some that don't, the point I think I was trying to make is that by hiding the cache in that spot, that close to an atm makes the people using the atm feel maybe a little threatened by my presence even though I'm doing nothing wrong. I have enjoyed every hunt that I have gone on but I don't like to make other people feel threatened by my choice of activity since they have no control over it, Just like smoking, I would not smoke in someone's home if they did not like smoke, It's called RESPECT!

It was a good point and needed to be added to the list of 'no-no' places along with day cares, schools etc......

[+Kai Team]

My position on this issue is simple... I have no civic responsibility...

Well said!

So basically, not only do you take other's work, but you twist it to your own ends. It's sad, really.

You put the words out there, I just edited the obfuscating verbiage. It's not sad, it's funny. Hence the

 

When you make the same, tired, "my civic responsibility is whatever I define it to be" and "the Creed - bah" arguments over and over, the conclusion is obvious. It's funny because you stated your beliefs so much more clearly than you intended.

 

Of course, pointing out the obvious only leads to even more vitriolic attacks from you. Predictable, but I just couldn't resist this time. And because pointing out the obvious always leads to more attacks from you, I will predict another attack on me or the Creed. Go ahead, prove my point.

[+sbell111]

Actually, if you want to attack me, go ahead. Just use my actual words. Don't arrange them to your pleasure to change their meaning.

 

Back to the subject of THIS thread...

 

If a micro was hidden very closely to an ATM, I'd probably pass it by. It also likely would not get approved, since it likely wouldn't have permission.

 

If the micro was just in the general area of an ATM, as described in the OP, I may or may not do it, but have no problem with it being listed.

[CoyoteRed]

I see there are some that understand and some that don't, the point I think I was trying to make is that by hiding the cache in that spot, that close to an atm makes the people using the atm feel maybe a little threatened by my presence even though I'm doing nothing wrong.

This could be another case of regional differences.

 

While I rarely use a walk-up ATM anymore and the ones that I do use all seem to be an aisle at a bank, I do remember the parking lot kiosks I used to use. I've used them while groundskeepers are working, didn't have a problem. I remember one particularly busy night a line formed, didn't have a problem.

 

I suspose if I'm a female, alone, at night and I drove up to get some cash and saw some guy rooting through the bushs at the kiosk, I might be a bit alarmed. But just about every other scenario that comes to mind, because the foot traffic around the kiosks and other factors, I just don't see it as an issue.

 

...unless you stuck it to the front of the dagburn thing.

 

The same goes for a bunch of other places that has been listed in this thread as off limits. Many of places I just don't see an issue.

[+Rainwater]

I would use common sense here. For instance, there have recently been some robberies at ATM machines by some guy in a skeleton mask, not a good idea to hide a cache now (Raleigh, NC), but in othr areas, maybe so.

DANG! You mean I should remove my skeleton mask when I cache? It makes it less fun if I remove my mask

 

Edited March 14, 2005 by Rainwater

[+RuffRidr]

Its just a bad idea to put a cache near an ATM. Sure, it might not techinically be illegal. But why do it? Is there no other spot that could be found to place the micro? What are you trying to show people at the ATM? Why are you bringing them here? What's the point? Maybe the point is to make people look like a jack#$$ while searching for a cache. I dunno, definitely one I'd skip.

 

--RuffRidr

[+sbell111]

I realized this morning just how many ATMs are around. In my hometown, the entire downtown area is on the historic register. There is really alot to show people. There are also several ATMs around in this area. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the jumping off point for this cache of mine is likely within range of one ATM's camera. (It's also in a traffic circle, but that was somebody else's rant.)

[+ibycus]

I think this really comes down to regional differences. If I were poking around an ATM, someone would probably ask me if I'd lost a contact lens or something (at which point I'd probably explain the game to them). The point is, don't act in a manner likely to cause alarm.

Don't sneak up behind people at the ATM, don't wear a ski mask, and don't whirl around suddenly holding your GPS.

That being said, it would be rather difficult to not act suspicious of the cache was physically on the ATM, but just in the area? Nope, I have no problem with it just being in the area. The last thing we need is more rules. Use common sense (especially in your own area), and no one will get hurt.

[+Kai Team]

The point is, don't act in a manner likely to cause alarm.

 

The last thing we need is more rules. Use common sense (especially in your own area), and no one will get hurt.

Exactly!

 

Edit: But you can't always control how the finder is going to act, which is why I wouldn't place a cache near an ATM without a very good reason. If I did, I'd probably include something to that effect (don't act in a manner likely to cause alarm) in the description.

 

If the hider is responsible in placing and describing the cachce, and reminds finders to be responsible, we won't get more rules. That's one reason to promote civic responsibility.

Edited March 14, 2005 by Kai Team

[+sbell111]

I realize that some would find that this post isn'r civicly responsible, but do we really need to remind someone to be responsible?

 

People are either responsible, or they are not.

[+Kai Team]

I realize that some would find that this post isn'r civicly responsible, but do we really need to remind someone to be responsible? 

 

People are either responsible, or they are not.

Off course [head slap]! I forgot that the world is black and white - there are no mistakes and no situational variables (being tired, distracted, excited, preoccupied, inexperienced, pressed for time, etc). People are either perfect or they're not. The actions of a given person are either always reponsible or always irresponsible. We all know that!

 

Besides, it would be really bad to remind people to be considerate. The consequences of doing so are horrific. What was I thinking?

[cacheaholik]

So if I understand the OP correctly in this thread you are asking that more rules be made about where a cache can be placed???

 

You know what hey say be careful what you ask for!

[bug and snake]

I realize that some would find that this post isn'r civicly responsible, but do we really need to remind someone to be responsible?

 

People are either responsible, or they are not.

Yep!

[bug and snake]

So if I understand the OP correctly in this thread you are asking that more rules be made about where a cache can be placed???

 

You know what hey say be careful what you ask for!

Based on a subsequent post I would suspect that the OP was using hyperbole and would like to see the concept of such hides being included with schools, military bases and such places.

Well, that's what I saw in it anyhow. Such figures of speech are common in face to face situations with the availability of body language to aid in the communication but become difficult to put over in this kind of media.

[+Team DaSH]

I think the real question is...

Would you play frisbee there?

[+RuffRidr]

I realize that some would find that this post isn'r civicly responsible, but do we really need to remind someone to be responsible?

 

People are either responsible, or they are not.

Yes, I think we do need to remind people to be civicly responsible. Some people need to use more common sense when hiding a cache. It turns out common sense is not as common as you'd think.

 

--RuffRidr

[+Marietta Moose]

I think that using common sense might be great. Won't always happen though. I know a great spot to hide a cache right behind the target frames on 600 yard high power rifle range but I figured I would not be able to only get those I dislike to go after it. So, I don't think this is viable location but it isn't against the rules. Duh!

 

Do we really need a big book of rules to decide where to put caches? Does anyone think we need a rule that cachers who find caches in locations that display no common sense MUST notify Jeremy via email of this so he can archive the cache until it is moved or they lose two finds from their records? Has anyone emailed the cache owner and suggested the cache near the ATM needs to be moved to another lamp post in the parking lot further from the ATM? Duh!

 

Sorry for the sarcasm but can't we just talk to each other about problem cache location concerns?

[+TotemLake]

I didn't read through all this, but you know that won't stop me from putting in my quip. I wouldn't look for a cache that was located near an ATM becausethis type of activity will make you a prime suspect in investigations.

[bug and snake]

I think that using common sense might be great.  Won't always happen though.  I know a great spot to hide a cache right behind the target frames on 600 yard high power rifle range but I figured I would not be able to only get those I dislike to go after it.  So, I don't think this is viable location but it isn't against the rules.  Duh!

 

Do we really need a big book of rules to decide where to put caches?  Does anyone think we need a rule that cachers who find caches in locations that display no common sense MUST notify Jeremy via email of this so he can archive the cache until it is moved or they lose two finds from their records?  Has anyone emailed the cache owner and suggested the cache near the ATM needs to be moved to another lamp post in the parking lot further from the ATM?    Duh! 

 

Sorry for the sarcasm but can't we just talk to each other about problem cache location concerns?

As I said above, I think the OP was using hyperbole - not asking for more specific rules. The examples you gave are great and illustrate the point very well. If you ever decide to place that one at the target range, please let me know - I want to recommend it to a couple of people!!!

 

As regards e-mailing the cache owner, I think the discussion was triggered by a specific cache but is really now about the subject in general. It seems like an attempt to come up with a guideline so that e-mails to specific cache owners (and the website/Jeremy) are not required.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just in case anyone was wondering:

 

hyperbole, a figure of speech in which exceptional exaggeration is deliberately used for emphasis rather than deception.

 

I have asked you a MILLION TIMES not to use hyperbole!

[+sbell111]

Hyperbelly? Is that something you get by eating too many burritos?

[+BruceS]

I don't want anyone hiding a cache right near me (see my title under my avatar)