Capture The Flag W/ Travel Bugs

[+zarah]

I would think NYC would be inplay for the Long Island team.  It would be weird for it to skip over NYC on it's way too or from NJ.  I think it would make things easier.  Of course, we can still start the flags there if you want.  Zarah, you're in charge of grabbing them both and bringing them 10 miles east.

 

I still like the idea of starting them off an equal distance from the border.  Say 20 or 30 miles?  Also, they should both start in similar cache types to make things even from the get go.  I'll place the LI one in a 4.5 star terrain cache here, which will be like a 1.5 for NJ. 

You can't pick both up at the same time. Anyone who handles one flag cannot pick up either for a week... unless you are neutral of course.

 

Either way is find by me., I can put them both in Manhatten, or we can have a short ceremony at Bryant Park

 

Can anyone make a webpage that can track these things?

Wait, that's a rule I must have missed. You cannot have both at the same time? Come on, wheres fun in that?

Also, you have to wait a week before getting them again?

I may be lost here. (although thats not anything new I guess. )

[avroair]

I would think NYC would be inplay for the Long Island team.  It would be weird for it to skip over NYC on it's way too or from NJ.  I think it would make things easier.  Of course, we can still start the flags there if you want.  Zarah, you're in charge of grabbing them both and bringing them 10 miles east.

 

I still like the idea of starting them off an equal distance from the border.  Say 20 or 30 miles?  Also, they should both start in similar cache types to make things even from the get go.  I'll place the LI one in a 4.5 star terrain cache here, which will be like a 1.5 for NJ. 

You can't pick both up at the same time. Anyone who handles one flag cannot pick up either for a week... unless you are neutral of course.

 

Either way is find by me., I can put them both in Manhatten, or we can have a short ceremony at Bryant Park

 

Can anyone make a webpage that can track these things?

Wait, that's a rule I must have missed. You cannot have both at the same time? Come on, wheres fun in that?

Also, you have to wait a week before getting them again?

I may be lost here. (although thats not anything new I guess. )

Yes, you have to wait a week, otherwise two cachers can go over and just keep trading the bug with one another.

 

Having different people get the bugs keeps them apart.

[+JMBella]

I'll put together a webpage. I'll make so we can both access it and edit it.

[avroair]

I'll put together a webpage. I'll make so we can both access it and edit it.

Oh so you mean, we can edit it to lie where the flag is, like a decoy! cool beans.

This is going to be interesting until someone takes a flag to Connecticut! (in that case you lose a point for every day it is away!)

[+zarah]

I'll put together a webpage.  I'll make so we can both access it and edit it.

Oh so you mean, we can edit it to lie where the flag is, like a decoy! cool beans.

This is going to be interesting until someone takes a flag to Connecticut! (in that case you lose a point for every day it is away!)

Hmm, so you automatically think our bug is going to head to CT? we'll just have to see about that...

[+zarah]

Ok, now I can't WAIT to get my hands on that NJ flag. Its going to Montauk. On a Monday. muhahahaha.

[+Quest1962]

Hmmmm.

 

Montauk to Cape May Point sounds like a great day of driving!

 

I can get in a few of the Earth cache legs on the way .

[avroair]

Ok, now I can't WAIT to get my hands on that NJ flag. Its going to Montauk. On a Monday. muhahahaha.

"Stealth is my middle name."

 

No Stealth Here!

 

Bring it!

[+Perfect Tommy]

How about the Liberty Island... oh wait, that belongs to NJ

 

This was like a pebble in my shoe so I checked into it. I should know better than to take an Englisher's word on US geography.

 

Liberty Island is a federal property but is located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. Source.

 

Avro might be confusing Liberty Island with Ellis Island. There was a big legal dispute that was finally resolved by the Supreme Court a couple of years ago. As a result, Ellis Island, which is also a federal property, is within the shared territorial jurisdiction of the States of New York and New Jersey. Source. As I recall the Supreme Court's decision, the original island belonged to New York but when New York expanded the island by landfill, that portion belonged to New Jersey. Thus, the landfill portion belongs to Jersey. Seems fitting.

 

I would think NYC would be inplay for the Long Island team. It would be weird for it to skip over NYC on it's way too or from NJ.

 

By that logic then Staten Island and the Bronx should also be in play.

I think that, inevitably, the bugs will fall into the hands of neutrals. You'all should come up with some rules for neutrals who cache in the area or at least set a physical boundary on how far the bugs can wander outside the "playing field" (such as Staten Island, Bronx, Westchester, Rockland and other border counties). This bug would be an interesting template to follow.

 

EDIT: in bold

Edited March 15, 2005 by Perfect Tommy

[avroair]

I already did, if your flag leaves your area you lose points!

 

That enables neutrals to be passive or agressive in the game

 

Edit: The playing field is Long Island and New Jersey - if a flag goes 'out of bounds' into other areas then the team has a penalty, just like in a football kickoff that goes out of bounds.

Edited March 15, 2005 by avroair

[+Resolution]

I find this intriguing. Can the flag be placed in a new cache? Puzzle cache? Details! Details!

[avroair]

I find this intriguing. Can the flag be placed in a new cache? Puzzle cache? Details! Details!

The flags are starting in Manhatten. There will then be a mad dash to come and get them. And return them to there rightful states.

 

Every day your flag is in your state team gets 1 pt

Every day your flag is outside your state team loses 1 pt

Every day your flag is in opposing teams state they get 2 pts

 

If a flag lands ourside of the Tri-state area it constitutes a redo. (so no cacher will intentionally take it over to California or Europe etc...)

 

This is correct right, Brian and Joe?

[+JMBella]

I find this intriguing.  Can the flag be placed in a new cache?  Puzzle cache?  Details!  Details!

The flags are starting in Manhatten. There will then be a mad dash to come and get them. And return them to there rightful states.

 

Every day your flag is in your state team gets 1 pt

Every day your flag is outside your state team loses 1 pt

Every day your flag is in opposing teams state they get 2 pts

 

If a flag lands ourside of the Tri-state area it constitutes a redo. (so no cacher will intentionally take it over to California or Europe etc...)

 

This is correct right, Brian and Joe?

My head hurts.

[avroair]

I find this intriguing.  Can the flag be placed in a new cache?  Puzzle cache?  Details!  Details!

The flags are starting in Manhatten. There will then be a mad dash to come and get them. And return them to there rightful states.

 

Every day your flag is in your state team gets 1 pt

Every day your flag is outside your state team loses 1 pt

Every day your flag is in opposing teams state they get 2 pts

 

If a flag lands ourside of the Tri-state area it constitutes a redo. (so no cacher will intentionally take it over to California or Europe etc...)

 

This is correct right, Brian and Joe?

My head hurts.

That's cause you drank too much at the event. (lightweight!)

[+Evil Chicken]

Here's another bug playing a similar game

 

Sounds like the rules of your game are coming together nicely. If either happens to meander down this way, we know a few lonely, swampy, bramble-filled, out of the way caches that are guaranteed to keep it safe for a little while.

[+julz91]

I find this intriguing.  Can the flag be placed in a new cache?  Puzzle cache?  Details!  Details!

The flags are starting in Manhatten. There will then be a mad dash to come and get them. And return them to there rightful states.

 

Every day your flag is in your state team gets 1 pt

Every day your flag is outside your state team loses 1 pt

Every day your flag is in opposing teams state they get 2 pts

 

If a flag lands ourside of the Tri-state area it constitutes a redo. (so no cacher will intentionally take it over to California or Europe etc...)

 

This is correct right, Brian and Joe?

My head hurts.

Mine too, and no, Avro, I didn't drink too much at the event.

 

So many rules, so many ways to sabatoge. But wait, Brooklyn is definitely on Long Island, despite being part of NYC, so...

 

Yeah, my head hurts.

[+Czarniecki314]

I'm going to take them both to Vermont... and attach VT state flags... you guys have waaaaaaaay too much time on your hands!

[+Czarniecki314]

Instead of starting them in Manhattan, what about starting them both, at midnight, in the other bug's territory... and not announcing where that will be?

[+Candover]

Yeah, my head hurts.

 

It all makes sense once you realize where the rules are coming from!

[+JMBella]

Yeah, my head hurts.

 

It all makes sense once you realize where the rules are coming from!

That seems about right.

[+briansnat]

JM, the flag is on its way.

[+Resolution]

Still trying to wrap my little pea brain around this... If the TBs can only travel 10 miles at a time and can only visit each cache once, won't it quickly come to a point where they simply cannot cross between territoties without breaking one of those rules? REALLY trying to understand how this works.

[+Perfect Tommy]

Good point. Also, a lot of caches won't be able to accomodate these flags Depending on the size of the flagpole and its base (if any), I don't think the flag will fit into micros, most mini caches and even some regular caches (such as Tupperware sandwich containers). The number of available caches in play will be pretty thin in urban areas, like Manhattan. The Rules Committee ( ) should double it to 20.

[+briansnat]

Good point. Also, a lot of caches won't be able to accomodate these flags Depending on the size of the flagpole and its base (if any), I don't think the flag will fit into micros, most mini caches and even some regular caches (such as Tupperware sandwich containers). The number of available caches in play will be pretty thin in urban areas, like Manhattan. The Rules Committee ( ) should double it to 20.

I lopped a few inches off the poles. They should be able to fit in all but micros and small caches....like most TB's.

[avroair]

Still trying to wrap my little pea brain around this...  If the TBs can only travel 10 miles at a time and can only visit each cache once, won't it quickly come to a point where they simply cannot cross between territoties without breaking one of those rules?  REALLY trying to understand how this works.

There is no limit as to the amount of times a flag can go into a cache. We want to see the bugs move, not just sit in caches. Also, the 'wait a week rule' stops two cachers from traveling together and alternating logging, 10 miles each for 150 miles.

 

It also means people have to think of a strategy... do I move ours away from harm or move theirs into harms way!!!

 

Edit: Please DONOT try and follow the rules in this thread! Wait for the travel bug pages

Edited March 17, 2005 by avroair

[+Resolution]

Well okay then... (im)patiently waiting for the travel bug pages.

[+zarah]

Instead of starting them in Manhattan, what about starting them both, at midnight, in the other bug's territory... and not announcing where that will be?

this sounds better. it also avoids an all out geoBRAWL. lol.

[+Quest1962]

<------ Patiently sitting, with the car idling, for the TB pages!

[+JMBella]

I still like the idea of setting them off in Manhatten. Should be interesting to see if anyone goes for them at the same time.

[+zarah]

I missed the memo that changed the spelling of "Manhattan" to "Manhatten"

[+JMBella]

I missed the memo that changed the spelling of "Manhattan" to "Manhatten"

I'll freakin' give you a memo.

[+BMSquared]

How about the Liberty Island... oh wait, that belongs to NJ

 

This was like a pebble in my shoe so I checked into it. I should know better than to take an Englisher's word on US geography.

 

Liberty Island is a federal property but is located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. Source.

 

Avro might be confusing Liberty Island with Ellis Island. There was a big legal dispute that was finally resolved by the Supreme Court a couple of years ago. As a result, Ellis Island, which is also a federal property, is within the shared territorial jurisdiction of the States of New York and New Jersey. Source. As I recall the Supreme Court's decision, the original island belonged to New York but when New York expanded the island by landfill, that portion belonged to New Jersey. Thus, the landfill portion belongs to Jersey. Seems fitting.

 

Tommy,

I know what the page says, but the USGS actually says BOTH Liberty and Ellis Islands belong to New Jersey. From Topozone

 

Because there is such a debate, we should leave it off limits. I guess the question is what does "territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York" mean? If New York harbor is the territory, then look at the map for the divide. If the Port Authority has jurisdiction and they are headquartered in NYC, then that might make some sense.

 

Edited March 23, 2005 by BMSquared

[+JMBella]

The Statue of Liberty is in NEW JERSEY?????? Holy crap, my whole life has been a bloody lie!!!

[+Packanack]

Look on the map, does anyone know the significance of "Black Tom", an historic event took place at that location early in the century, for history buffs, I wonder if it is accessible to public. By the way your entire life has not been a lie, a prevarication, a deception, an exageration perhaps but not a lie. It is just that the French have always liked NJ better Why we even have a town called Frenchtown, which is cache free:lol:

Edited March 23, 2005 by Packanack

[+KBer]

Black Tom refers to an explosion that occurred at that location during the days before America entered WW I. Some believe that the explosion was caused by German saboteurs, others believe that workman incompetence was the cause.

 

Here is a fine web site with more information:

 

http://www.njcu.edu/programs/jchistory/Pag...m_Explosion.htm

[+Packanack]

KB wins the prize. A truly fascinating story with parallels to modern America. There also was a similar equally destructive explosion in Lyndhurst and I believe in Wayne around the same time. Now if virtual caches were still in vogue, this would be an excellent one. Any other history buffs?

Edited March 23, 2005 by Packanack

[avroair]

KB wins the prize. A truly fascinating story with parallels to modern America. There also was a similar equally destructive explosion in Lyndhurst and I believe in Wayne around the same time. Now if virtual caches were still in vogue, this would be an excellent one. Any other history buffs?

And of course the devastating blast at the Wanaque DuPont Munitions Plant - where the Wanaque Vortex is located. Wanaque Vortex

 

Now back to the real historical topic of flags... are they ready yet?

[+JMBella]

KB wins the prize. A truly fascinating story with parallels to modern America.  There also was a similar equally destructive explosion in Lyndhurst and I believe in Wayne around the same time.  Now if virtual caches were still in vogue, this would be an excellent one.  Any other history buffs?

And of course the devastating blast at the Wanaque DuPont Munitions Plant - where the Wanaque Vortex is located. Wanaque Vortex

 

Now back to the real historical topic of flags... are they ready yet?

I'm ready. Got the flag a couple of days ago. Thanks Brian.

[+Perfect Tommy]

Tommy,

I know what the page says, but the USGS actually says BOTH Liberty and Ellis Islands belong to New Jersey. From Topozone

 

Because there is such a debate, we should leave it off limits.

 

Actually there is no dispute that both Liberty and Ellis Island belong now to the federal government (which is why they are already effectively off limits). Turning to the question of whose territory the islands are situated in, I did some further digging.

 

According to this source, "The islands of New York harbor have been part of New York since the issuance in 1664 of the colonial charter that created New Jersey... This charter stated that New Jersey "bounded by the Hudson River" rather than from the middle channel, as was common in other colonial charters. That is, as everyone understood at the time, the NY-NJ border did not go through the center of the river channel as one might naturally assume. An 1834 compact between New York and New Jersey, which primarily concerned the status of Staten Island, set the boundary line between the States as the middle of the Hudson River but reaffirmed that Staten Island and the other islands belonged to New York." I'm sure splicingdan is relieved at that news.

 

Thus Jersey has riparian rights to all the submerged land surrounding Liberty Island, extending eastward to the boundary line but New Jersey has no claim to (and has never claimed) any legal rights to the dry land of Liberty Island. When New York created dry land on Ellis Island by landfill, that landfill portion belonged to Jersey (or so the Supreme Court held in 1998). So JMBella has not been living a lie, or a prevarication or a deception, etc., the Statue belongs to New York, not Jersey City.

[+Squealy]

All I know is that this is all going to end with a beating of Avro.

 

I don't even care who wins.

[avroair]

All I know is that this is all going to end with a beating of Avro.

 

I don't even care who wins.

Hey, don't make me tell them why you're called Squealy and have more Penn finds than me. What a mess...

 

Edit: And stop typing in that ridiculous pink.

Edited March 23, 2005 by avroair

[+Harry Dolphin]

So, we sneak into the city, nab a flag, and hid it in one of our caches that nobody's visited in a while? Hee hee hee.

[+Perfect Tommy]

Since it's Lawn Guyland vs. Joisey and I am effectively sidelined, I just wanted to post my availability as a geocaching mercenary for hire by either side. For a small fee, I will be happy to grab your opponent's flag and put it in a Westchester cache, maybe even one of my annoying puzzle caches. Cash and money orders only.

[+robert]

The Statue of Liberty is in NEW JERSEY?????? Holy crap, my whole life has been a bloody lie!!!

that folks, is what we call the "quote of the year".

[+Squealy]

I'm just happy Joe spelled everything right!

 

Pink, Chaucer? PINK!

[avroair]

Are they ready yet?

[+briansnat]

Are they ready yet?

New Jersey is ready. Just have to activate it. I'll do it tonight.

 

Do we have the full set of the rules we're gonna use? I'd like to like print them, laminate them and attach them to the bug..

[+macatac1961]

Are there any rules as to the ratings of the cache a flag can be placed in? If they're placed in 5-5's this could be a very slow moving game. Long Island doesn't have caches like Hydrodynamic

[+Packanack]

The Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty was settled with less talk.

Edited March 25, 2005 by Packanack

[+briansnat]

The Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty was settled with less talk.

That was only between 180 or so countries. This involves New Jersey and Long Island. Things are a lot more complex than a silly internatonal treaty.