Religous Thymes

March 9, 2005

Is there a rule about religous thymes for a cache? I think that I have looked everywhere and have not seen any commit about this.

38.2k · March 9, 2005

Thymes, or themes? If you mean themes you're walking a fine line. If it comes off as evangelizing or promoting a religious agenda, they will not approve it.

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

Now if it just has a religious theme it may get by. By theme I mean stocking it with things like religious figurines, jewelery, crosses, a Bible and a Koran, stars of David, etc... If you're just gonna fill it with pamphlets in hopes of "saving" a few finders, forget it. It won't fly.

Edited March 9, 2005 by briansnat

6.4k · March 9, 2005

Is there a rule about religous thymes for a cache? I think that I have looked everywhere and have not seen any commit about this.

From the Guidelines for hiding a cache:

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

18.9k · March 9, 2005

On the other hand - simply placing a cache with a few religious items in it (New testemants, full sized bible, cross, bookmarks with prayers/versus etc) for trade is not againist the guidlines. Just don't try to push any particular church or line of faith and keep it off of church property. Allow open trading and keep it stocked with "your" preference of items. Don't create a web page that "has an agenda" - and leave it at that. I know of several cachers that trade with pocket New testemants - can be purchased in bulk for around $1.25 each.

March 9, 2005

I think that religion is a personal, private matter and that a cache is probably not a good forum for it, well-intentioned though you might be.

March 10, 2005

I have found that it is up to the "moderator" to make the decision on what flies and what is grounded. I found a couple caches that had you go to the Bible to find the coords. I thought it was a neat idea since I am a minister. I created the coordinates with numbers found in different verses. That was it...no preaching or trying to get anyone to convert. The moderator at the time put the axe to it. I showed him where other caches were doing the same thing. I also stated that it was no different than going to any other book or web site to get information to figure out a cache coord. He held his ground and wouldn't budge. So I created another page dealing with the history of the location.

In His Service,

Edited March 10, 2005 by WARedBear

March 10, 2005

Puting a bible track or a small Gospel of John in as a trade item works to. You don't have to take if you don't want to.

8.1k · March 10, 2005

Themed caches are great, I have many, but in my experience promoting an agenda is not usually supported.

But it can be done in a non-agenda way such as a virtual stage of a multi at a catherdral or grave stone in a cathedral. Hard to say really.

March 10, 2005

Don't.... I don't want to hear about your brand of idiocy any more than you want to hear about mine. 'Nuff said.

5.3k · March 10, 2005

It would be very hard to do a cache based on a religous theme without offending some people, this is not a cache that I think is needed. Even if you placed items in the cache form every religon in the world, it is not a good idea. You are going to offend someone.

March 10, 2005

Caches with an agenda needs at least to be upfront about it in the cache description, so they can be filtered out if necessary. But the guidelines are quite clear on this, so in most cases they won't be approved.

It is unlikely that caches with hidden agendas will create any converts to the cause, in my opinion.

March 10, 2005

I don't see an issue with it as long as its generic. By that I mean if I see pamphlets promoting Saint Pompous XXII, that's too specific. There's a trade show cache near me whose goal is to trade "useful" things with company logos on them. How is that any different? Its general enough to not promote any specific company.

Don't.... I don't want to hear about your brand of idiocy any more than you want to hear about mine. 'Nuff said.

Wow. That's harsh. Consider it like a radio station: if you don't like what you hear, don't listen. If a cache does not catch your fancy, don't find it.

1.6k · March 10, 2005

These kind of discussions have come up before. The other factor to consider is that you may have few visitors to the cache as people who don't have the same beliefs you have will be unlikely to walk miles in the woods on a hot summer day to look at religious stuff for a religion they don't belong to.

My advice is that if a religious item (cross, star of david, etc) is important to you, you consider building a signature item around that.

20.7k · March 10, 2005

In the old thread, Jeremy had this to say:

The position of Geocaching.com is that any cache with the main intent to solicit anything, whether politics, religion, or commercial ends, is inappropriate for the game and inappropriate for listing on the site.

Perhaps I was harsh for directing my comments to one religious sect (JW), and for that I apologize. Many religious sects go door to door soliciting converts. What I'm saying is that it is inappropriate to trick people into visiting a cache that was obviously created to attempt to convert you. And in this case it seemed to conveniently conceal what it truly was.

Organized religion is not on trial here, so don't divert the topic. If you want to put WWJD bracelets in caches, bibles, the Torah, a voodoo doll, feel free. But to create a box of tracts deviates from the light nature of the sport.

In my opinion, this stance would allow for a cache with a general religious theme. I certainly would not fill it with tracts, nor would I hide it next to a church. I also would open it up to items from all religions. I would not allow tracts to be placed in it.

If this is all clearly explained on the cache page, I don't think you will have a problem.

1.8k · March 10, 2005

Consider also that you're FAR more likely to have somebody take offense at your religious-themed cache and decide to damage or destroy it, than a cache with a more inocuous theme like teddy bears or kittens.

18.9k · March 10, 2005

Consider also that you're FAR more likely to have somebody take offense at your religious-themed cache and decide to damage or destroy it, than a cache with a more inocuous theme like teddy bears or kittens.

Destroy because of a religious theme!!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!! I'm not sure what is more scary - that somebody would do that - or - that somebody would think others would do it. Does this thinking extended to religious items left in a cache?? (just what kind of country are we becoming)

March 10, 2005

My thought on this would be don't do it. If the geocaching guidelines say no and the approvers won't approve one with a religious theme then you have no way to let people know before hunting the cache that it is religious and give them the option of not hunting it for that reason. I agree with Hip's Meister in saying religion is a private thing that should be kept that way.

March 10, 2005

I think as long as you are not specific to what can be placed in it, that would be fine. If you explain the general contents on the cache page, what could be the issue? Certainly anyone that doesn't want to be "exposed" to that type of thing can steer clear. I wouldn't want our friend from Massachusetts to have his fingers melt off from coming in contact with it! (I swear I think some people are more afraid of religion than toxic waste.)

1k · March 10, 2005

It's your cache; do whatever you want with it, but if it's a theme cache, make sure people understand this before they search for it. I found this cache, placed by a church group. It had a lot of religious articles in it, but I don't think anyone was offended.

I'm not religious myself, but I generally have no problem with other people's devotion to their beliefs. I think we tend to worry too much about this sort of thing.

March 10, 2005

Consider also that you're FAR more likely to have somebody take offense at your religious-themed cache and decide to damage or destroy it, than a cache with a more inocuous theme like teddy bears or kittens.

Just to show how out of line some peoples attitudes are....

I am highly offended by cats AND bears... If I EVER find a cache themed around those items I will take it as a personal affront and quickly destroy that cache.

I love how people make a big deal about being offended by religion... people CHOOSE to be offended. If it's ok for you to have such a strong aversion to religion then it's just as ok for me to have a strong hatred of anything I want, be it cats, dogs, airplanes, the color blue... whatever. So don't gripe when I shut your Nascar themed cache down cause I'm OFFENDED.

This is NOT directed towards whoever I've just quoted... just used your comment about kittens and teddys to make a point, sorry.

Edited March 10, 2005 by audion64

1.8k · March 10, 2005

This is NOT directed towards whoever I've just quoted... just used your comment about kittens and teddys to make a point, sorry.

No offense taken!

I think it's silly to want to exact that sort of revenge, but there are people who really are that petty and selfish. To respond to StarBrand's post above--I've seen people trash caches for reasons every bit as stupid as that.

Personally, I would have no problem finding a religious themed cache, and I'm not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination (except during earthquakes :blink: ). In fact, not too long ago I found a religious-themed cache that was on church property. It was a well-executed cache in a beautiful garden with an awesome view, and I had a great time.

Like most mature people, I can simply ignore the contents of a cache or the text on a cache page if I don't agree with them, and still have a fun time just looking for a cache.

However, there is still that small contingent of the population who has no capacity for rational thought like that.

March 10, 2005

There will always be someone who finds ANY theme objectionable -- railroad, cats, keychains, etc. Not approving a religious themed cache because it 'might' offend someone is lame. Just state upfront it is a religious themed cache and let the searcher decide whether to find it or not.

20.7k · March 10, 2005

My thought on this would be don't do it. If the geocaching guidelines say no and the approvers won't approve one with a religious theme then you have no way to let people know before hunting the cache that it is religious and give them the option of not hunting it for that reason. I agree with Hip's Meister in saying religion is a private thing that should be kept that way.

Where do the guidelines say 'no'? Has an approver come out and said that this theme won't be approved under any scenario? What did I miss?

20.7k · March 10, 2005

...I am highly offended by cats AND bears... If I EVER find a cache themed around those items I will take it as a personal affront and quickly destroy that cache....

I have no problem with normal cats but those three-eyed ones really creep me out. :blink:

1.8k · March 10, 2005

I have no problem with normal cats but those three-eyed ones really creep me out.

I find that to be offensive against cute little 3-eyed kittens!

24.7k · March 10, 2005

Some people are offended by lame caches. There is a point at which it's not worth worrying about. Leave people to their own offences and they can be as happy finding offensive things to worry about as I am to not worry about offending them to begin with. :blink:

1.8k · March 11, 2005

Destroy because of a religious theme!!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!! I'm not sure what is more scary - that somebody would do that - or - that somebody would think others would do it. Does this thinking extended to religious items left in a cache?? (just what kind of country are we becoming)

If you know the term "Judeo-Christian ethic," (0ver-simplified, the 10 Commandments, etc.) a system of right & wrong; it has been dead for several years, the world has already changed. It has indeed become hostile.

24.7k · March 11, 2005

Destroy because of a religious theme!!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!! I'm not sure what is more scary - that somebody would do that - or - that somebody would think others would do it. Does this thinking extended to religious items left in a cache?? (just what kind of country are we becoming)

If you know the term "Judeo-Christian ethic," (0ver-simplified, the 10 Commandments, etc.) a system of right & wrong; it has been dead for several years, the world has already changed. It has indeed become hostile.

More knowledge and less wisdom and a lot of the time the knowledge is just a delusion.

March 11, 2005

I recently found a cache with tracts of a religion I do not agree with (also it had trash in it-- empty food wrappers, old gift cards), so I removed the tract (there was only one) and all of the "junk" and replaced it with nicer stuff I had brought with me. I believe that it was my right as a geocacher to "trade up" the items in the cache-- I replaced each item with an item of equal or greater value.

I always remove "offensive" tracts when I see them (even for my own religion, if I see it as narrow-minded or prejudiced to/against a specific group).

My opinion

38.2k · March 11, 2005

I always remove "offensive" tracts when I see them

I'm curious. What is offensive about religious material? I'm not religious at all and can't imagine being offended by finding religious material. Sometimes I even read it, but more often I leave it there for whomever may actually enjoy it. My own beliefs (or should I say lack of) developed after years of serious consideration and thought, so no tract is going to convert me, therefore I see no reason to be offended.

Edited March 11, 2005 by briansnat

March 11, 2005

I recently found a cache with tracts of a religion I do not agree with (also it had trash in it-- empty food wrappers, old gift cards), so I removed the tract (there was only one) and all of the "junk" and replaced it with nicer stuff I had brought with me. I believe that it was my right as a geocacher to "trade up" the items in the cache-- I replaced each item with an item of equal or greater value.

I always remove "offensive" tracts when I see them (even for my own religion, if I see it as narrow-minded or prejudiced to/against a specific group).

My opinion

It saddens me to see the following post:

"I always remove "offensive" tracts when I see them (even for my own religion, if I see it as narrow-minded or prejudiced to/against a specific group)."

As a relatively free thinking adult I simply can't understand why someone else would decide they are able to judge what is offensive to me. If you take it upon yourself to censor free speech then you are denying another citizen of one of their basic rights.

I ask you this Ozzyemm, when you [remove "offensive" tracts] from a cache someone else created do you just take them and leave nothing in return because you feel it is your right to do so? Or do you leave an item in trade? Please post your answer to this question.

21.9k · March 11, 2005

The original poster's question -- whether religious-themed caches are allowed -- was answered in the initial responses. If anyone has more to contribute on *that* topic, please feel free to post.

If anyone wishes to discuss the related topic of religious materials as trade items, and removing such items when found in caches, then please open a thread in the Geocaching Topics forum. This is the "Getting Started" forum. The walls here are flameproof. Thank you.

2.5k · March 11, 2005

Consider also that you're FAR more likely to have somebody take offense at your religious-themed cache and decide to damage or destroy it, than a cache with a more inocuous theme like teddy bears or kittens.

I wouldn't destroy someone else's cache, but if you put something religious in one of mine, I most certainly would remove it.

I don't hide Wiccan themed caches or use pentacles for signature items, and I don't intend to let crosses, stars of David, or any other religious symbolism sit around in my caches.

March 11, 2005

I guess it would be better it you defined religious themed. I have a cache on church property put would not consider it religious themed. It is a historical building and has a nice garden. Thats all I intened for people to see. With regards to religious item in a cache, I have put gold crosses in a cache. This is not what I concider religous. If you don't want to wear a gold cross around your neck or on a key chain don't take it. As for tracks, religious tracks were made for the perpose of "introduceing " people to God or religion. This goes againest the guidlines of useing geocacheing to promote something. That is the only purpose or tracks.

I would concider myself a "religious person" but have to agree there is a time and a place for everything and geocacheing is a game/sport not an avenue to convert someone to something. If it is a cool place that is fun to see, put a cache there. If it is a puzzle cache and I need a bible to look up a line that gives a hint or number to a cord. fine just check yourself to see what your agenda is and make sure you don't have a hidden agenda. Use your common sence, peoples motives can offend me but the words God, church, cross,blessings do not. Thumperness

March 12, 2005

We have one nearby called WWJC (what would Jesus cache) and for a while I was slightly offended. I doubt Jesus would be a cacher, he had more important things on his mind like healing the sick, taking away your sins, yada, yada, yada...

I see no problem with it as long as it is not elitist. Meaning there is a rule that it can only be a certain religion's "items" to trade. If it is a religious theme it would have to include everything. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and I would include some native American religious traditions as well. Go ahead and place the cache, but don't get bent out of shape about it.

Joe Smith

Oh, as for "offensive"

Any group of people who try to convince me to change my personal beliefs based on the fact that I don't fit their profile of a "good, clean" person is offensive to me.

I recently had someone come to my house and insist that because i don't go to church, because I don't believe that every word of the bible is true, that i don't believe that Jesus is the only god that I am going to hell and I NEED to come to their church, if I would ever be "saved".

I find that offensive. Very offensive.

Another story. Back when we were more active in the church, my father got selected to represent our area of churches (don't remember what it was called) in the big meeting in California. After hearing of what goes on behind the scenes I will never belong to an "organized religion" again. The people who represented the entire country's churches were people I would NEVER want in control of anything larger than the griddle at McDonald's.

It's great to have faith in something. I know I do. Just make sure that what you believe is the same thing as your religious leaders. make sure you really know what you are supporting. And try to place a cache that follows your values, while having respect for other's.

Edited March 12, 2005 by Joe Smith

March 12, 2005

IMHO religious themed would be a cache filled with tracts and other items of religious nature only with the intent of converting those who found it. A cache on a church site would not necessarily fit that description since there are many churches that have historical or architectural value aside from their obvious religious value.

March 12, 2005

We recently asked a similar question, and I asked our reviewer on his thoughts as to our ideas. For my particular cache, it won't be filled with religious trinkets and we will advise against that. But it is located at a place of spirtual significance (a shrine), where the grounds are beautifully tended with flowers, shrubbery, and statues, and quiet.

The decision of the moderator about my multi idea was to place the actual cache off the actual grounds, and to provide alternate clues to someone who did not wish to be exposed to the religious artifacts on site. So my multi will likely be a dual-multi, each ending up at the same box, but through different coordinates depending on the journey you wish to follow. Each set of clues will be clearly marked as to what kind of experience it will be.

Personally, I am a spritual person but with interests in all religions, not only my own. I have never quite understood the sensitivity people have about others discussing religions of any type. I find the history and cultures fascinating. That said, I do find it difficult to listen to people who try to convert others, or who feel "my way is the only way," or "you will not be saved unless you follow this" and that is likely what causes the frustration with others who think about caches with religious themes.

I think if you provide an alternate experience for those with more sensitivity to these sort of themes (or who do not wish to expose their kids, say, to statues of Jesus if they are Jewish)...providing an alternate route allows everyone to enjoy it in the way they find most comfortable.

March 12, 2005

This topic sure opened up a can of worms

1.2k · March 12, 2005

Destroy because of a religious theme!!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!! I'm not sure what is more scary - that somebody would do that - or - that somebody would think others would do it. Does this thinking extended to religious items left in a cache?? (just what kind of country are we becoming)

I think it's possible.

One possible scenario: member of minority religion (what the general public would call a cult/occult/satanism/whatever) misguidedly places a religious-themed cache.

A local mainstream religion's youthgroup finds out about it and sees this as damaging to the community and removes the cache entirely or replaces original items with prosyletiszing tracts.

1.2k · March 12, 2005

I always remove "offensive" tracts when I see them

I'm curious. What is offensive about religious material? I'm not religious at all and can't imagine being offended by finding religious material. Sometimes I even read it, but more often I leave it there for whomever may actually enjoy it. My own beliefs (or should I say lack of) developed after years of serious consideration and thought, so no tract is going to convert me, therefore I see no reason to be offended.

I do not find religious materials (in the larger sense) offensive. I rather like comparitive theology and enjoy learning about the beliefs and practice of others.

OTOH and IMO, religious tracts are by definition offensive. They are simpleminded, hamhanded, deeply self-righteous propaganda for one particular brand of religion.

March 12, 2005

They are simpleminded, hamhanded, deeply self-righteous propaganda for one particular brand of religion.

EXACTLY!

I was trying to find a way to say that and you hit the ail right on the head.

Thak you!

March 13, 2005

. I doubt Jesus would be a cacher, he had more important things on his mind like healing the sick, taking away your sins, yada, yada, yada...

I guess you don't know him as well as I do, I think he would have enjoyed geocaching. He would have loved watching all the children play in the parks and the family's spending time together. He was human, and enjoyed the things human's enjoyed. Not to mention I bet HE could have figured out Fendogs puzzle caches! :huh:

2.2k · March 13, 2005

this is one heck of a mine field of a discussion and i'm amazed that it's not got people more worked up.

feel free to put whatever themed stuff you want to. don't try to indoctrinate anyone. educate with your opinion offered up for people to consider and discard should they wish to without feeling embarest.

live and let live, most religious stuff is a moral code on how to live life in harmony with others. i hope anyway.

goodnight and may your god go with you. (RIP dave allen)

March 13, 2005

Let's leave Religion, Politics and propoganda OUT of caches...

We are bombared by all types of ads in our daily lives. Caching should be fun, not a way for others to "spread the word".

Peace.

March 13, 2005

Let's leave Religion, Politics and propaganda OUT of caches...

We are bombared by all types of ads in our daily lives. Caching should be fun, not a way for others to "spread the word".

Peace.

If finding a religious tract or a pamphlet extolling the virtues of veganism in a cache takes the fun out of caching for you then it's your problem and nobody else's. Much like the McToy in a cache, if you don't want to trade for it then put it back in the cache and leave it for someone else who might want it.

I save Chick Tracts when I find them, not because of the religious message but because I find them bizarre and amusing. The link to my favorite tract follows this warning. Before anyone clicks on the link, Beware! the message there could offend you and take all the fun out of reading the forums. A Demon's Nightmare

Edited March 13, 2005 by JohnX

38.2k · March 13, 2005

They are simpleminded, hamhanded, deeply self-righteous propaganda for one particular brand of religion.

While I agree with that, I still don't see how that makes them offensive. Maybe I'm just not that easily offended.

I save Chick Tracts when I find them, not because of the religious message but because I find them bizarre and amusing.

I've found these in caches and I'm not offended at all (even though I'm officially a Catholic and Catholics are often the target of his screeds). In fact I find them to be hilarious.

Edited March 13, 2005 by briansnat

March 13, 2005

Wow those Chick tracts really ARE cheesy... how anyone feels that something like that is really going to touch the heart of someone reading it is beyond me. Typically the folks who use those are the Western Gunslingers of religion... they walk down the street , slap a tract in your hand, and walk away... while putting another 'notch' in their Bible for 'another one saved'. If you really care about people you will build a relationship with them. It's the folks like that that give the word Christian a bad name, and that's sad cause we're not all that bad... trust me.

As for another post about not wanting to be 'exposed' to things like a statue of Jesus or whatever... while I agree with the poster about the need to be sensative to fellow cachers feelings, IMO your children are much better off BEING exposed to all those different ideas and learning to make an INFORMED decision on their own. If YOU have a relationship with your children, your influence in what they believe will be stronger than any other. Not wanting to be 'exposed'.... well put on the horse blinders and walk thru life oblivious cause it's out there... all of it, both good AND bad.

I too am pleasantly suprised at the level of maturity which this discussion has maintained!!

March 13, 2005

This thread has spiraled a bit, but it's rare in this world that folks can get together and talk about such hot topics without stooping to cruelty and badgering. This is why I love geocachers! The positive level of respect I've seen in reading this enourmous thread is mind-boggling considering the topic.

March 14, 2005

Sorry, John, I don't agree with you.

I remember those "chick" pamplets. Jeeezus! I hated those d@mm things. They are carefully crafted as a little cartoon book to appeal to small children intent on putting fear and guilt in them. What kind of Christian message is that?? Those pamplets aren't allowed in school, so why should we allow them in a cache??

Again,

Let's leave Religion, Politics and propoganda OUT of caches...

We are bombarded by all types of ads in our daily lives. Caching should be fun, not a way for others to "spread the word".

Peace.

March 14, 2005

Got a great virt today on the grounds of the local mormon temple. The virt directs you to a location with a great view of the SF bay and to a plaque on the grounds of the temple. The plaque mentions a ship that came carrying mostly Mormons, but it has historical signifigance, since the ship doubled the white population of SF in the early days. The grounds and the view are spectacular, but one does not need to take in any religious stuff whatsoever. The temple is also a landmark, since it is lit at night and can be seen from miles away. The pilots at Oakland and SF use it for a navagation point.

Talking to the security guard on the grounds, I found they got such prime real estate because the leader of the Mormons on the boat picked out the great site many years ago.

I am not a Mormon and was not offended at all.

Edited March 14, 2005 by Wacka

Religous Thymes

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