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Was I Too Harsh??


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I said it before, I'll say it again...

 

Expressing opinions about the cache (I was disappointed when I found this micro because this park would be a great place for a regular, or the large amount of broken glass in the area makes it unsafe for smaller children ...) OK!

 

Expressing opinions about the placers (Why did you... What were you thinking when you... You sure wasted my time when you...) NOT OK!

This is very helpful oppinion. What you are saying makes sense. I have already altered my log to reflect that sort of change.

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What makes a micro in a nice little park a good hide for you?

A fair question, I'll give it a fair answer.

Should have probably been obvious by now. If that is the only way to put a cache there, I would applaud it for it's utility. But I will repeat... There were MANY, MANY places to hide a real cache. This was NOT disability accessable, so that is not an issue. Within a couple of dozen paces of it's location were NUMEROUS good places to put a cache. This on was not thought out. But I digress, because once again you have me talking about what makes a lame cache, that is not the purpose.

I merely want to know if I have the privilege (I won't say right) to criticize in the log!

There have been many posts in this thread saying you have the privilege. It's a free country, no one can take that privilege away. Why do you keep asking the same question? It's an established fact you can say anything you want and you obviously will.

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I merely want to know if I have the privilege (I won't say right) to criticize in the log!

I think you do - but the interesting part is that people want finders who don't do much homework to get logs that are just as nice as those who really put a lot of effort and thought into their cache.

 

"But what if it's a 9 year old kid who hid the cache and that's the best they can do?"

 

Well then, I guess just shoot me, because I'm too mean to live. It's not like the bulk of hides of the sort you are complaining about are the work of a bunch of 9 year olds. Indeed, I'd guess the average 9 year old would be a LOT more creative with their hide.

 

But it's apparent that lots of folks don't want you to express your opinion. They want the reward without the effort. Why is that?

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Quote

This is very helpful oppinion. What you are saying makes sense. I have already altered my log to reflect that sort of change.

 

 

I know, and I believe it was the right thing to do. I respect you a lot for that.

As a read the posts it seemed obvious that some people still seem to want to trash the hider. That is just bad form. You can get your point across (and did) without making it personal.

 

Edited to add quote (poorly). These guys post fast!

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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I think you were kinda harsh too, but I don't blame you. I did a similar thing once, posting a comment like "thanks alot for further perpetuating the unsavory reputation of this town by placing a cache at this dumpy site" . The owner emailed me and asked me what I meant. I told them I thought the choice was terrible, there were many much nicer places for the only cache in this little town.

 

They deleted my log.

 

I then re-entered a new log: TNLN

 

I might have Pi**ed them off, but I think I got the message across, and perhaps prevented them from placing another lame dumpy cache!

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There have been many posts in this thread saying you have the privilege. It's a free country, no one can take that privilege away. Why do you keep asking the same question?

Because everone (many people) keep trying to turn it into a discussion about what makes a lame cache. That has been covered in about a thousand threads. I realize that my question has been answered. In fact I got much good advice. But if I close the thread, they somehow make believe I don't want to hear what they say and I get flamed.

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I think you were kinda harsh too, but I don't blame you. I did a similar thing once, posting a comment like "thanks alot for further perpetuating the unsavory reputation of this town by placing a cache at this dumpy site" . The owner emailed me and asked me what I meant. I told them I thought the choice was terrible, there were many much nicer places for the only cache in this little town.

 

They deleted my log.

 

I then re-entered a new log: TNLN

 

I might have Pi**ed them off, but I think I got the message across, and perhaps prevented them from placing another lame dumpy cache!

You're the man. Taking it on yourself to protect us all from things you don't like and bashing folks that put something out for you to find.

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I know, and I believe it was the right thing to do. I respect you a lot for that.

As a read the posts it seemed obvious that some people still seem to want to trash the hider. That is just bad form. You can get your point across (and did) without making it personal.

I actually DO agree that a personal attack on the hider is the wrong thing to do.

I would point out, though, that a great many hiders take *any* criticism of their cache, no matter how true or tactfully stated, as a personal attack. I've experienced this firsthand more than once.

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What makes a micro in a nice little park a good hide for you?

A fair question, I'll give it a fair answer.

Should have probably been obvious by now. If that is the only way to put a cache there, I would applaud it for it's utility. But I will repeat... There were MANY, MANY places to hide a real cache. This was NOT disability accessable, so that is not an issue. Within a couple of dozen paces of it's location were NUMEROUS good places to put a cache. This on was not thought out. But I digress, because once again you have me talking about what makes a lame cache, that is not the purpose.

I merely want to know if I have the privilege (I won't say right) to criticize in the log!

What I'm getting from your post is that micros are not real caches. I think you will find many, many cachers that disagree with you on this point.

 

I hope that wasn't the only reason for your rude log.

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You're the man. Taking it on yourself to protect us all from things you don't like and bashing folks that put something out for you to find.

Fortunately, this has never happened to me - all my caches must be the BEST because all my logs have been positive. :D

 

Seriously - haven't you ever wondered whether or not people *really* like what you hide? I know I have wondered this. If they didn't like my hides, but wrote nice things just to avoid hurting my feelings, well, I think that would be just awful. How is a person supposed to KNOW that people enjoy what he's doing if all the logs on all caches are positive? It can't all be good for everyone, everywhere, everytime. If it is always good, doesn't it make the feedback you get on your cache completely meaningless? To be sure you can't please all the people all the time. Heck, certain people you probably can't please any of the time. But how are you supposed to know whether or not you are pleasing ANYBODY?

 

Am I the only one who sees this?

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...Am I the only one who sees this?
You are not, but you have to realize that this has been discussed alot. In general, if you get a bunch of logs that read, 'TNLN TFTC', you likely placed a forgettable cache. It's not necessarily lame, but it might be.

 

If some of your logs read,

'WOW! Must say this is one of the better caches i've done lately. Excellent hide! Thanks! TNLNSL
or
What a GREAT hunt. I loved doing this. Perfect idea. I got the fun of 3 hunts. Found it with XXXXXX. We were almost late to a party, but it was totally worth it.
or
Well I found it only after 51 day of tring to figure it out. I like to thank all the people I ask to help me with this one all my freinds, relatives, geocaching buddies and any one walking down the street that would listen. I took the bag of marbles, and the carabiner, left a picture frame and 4 AA batterys. And was I ever suprised to find where it was
or
OK, OK, I'm just plain blind. It bugged me so bad that I missed it on Saturday, that I took this morning off and went back to find it. My apologies SBell for making you get out and verify the cache, I owe you big time. When I got to the spot this morning it took me 4 minutes to find it. I signed the log, took nothing and left an emergency clip-on flasher and a family cache card. This cache really makes you use all of your caching skills don't under estimate it.
or
Victory...Sweet Victory....It was a team effort...but a special thanks goes to EagleEye1 who right when we were ready to give up spotted the hiding spot. If there's an award giving to best cache of 2002, Great Caesar's Ghost should be in the finals.
or
I really liked this cache. It reminded me of one of my own Archie Stands Tall. I thought I must have figured something wrong at point two until I saw what I was looking for. Thanks for placing this very well done multi-cache.

BruceS

St Peters, MO

or
Great cache, we were in town visiting some friends who tried a couple times to find this one. The clues at the end helped the most since our coordinates were off but we were successful none-the-less. Thanks.

You might have a good one.

Edited by sbell111
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A couple of additional facts and observations based on those facts:

 

1. There's a micro at the rest stop on the opposite side of the interstate, which the OP also found. He left a decent log, something like "pretty nice as rest stop caches go." So it is not like he hates all micros or anything, but rather that he would've preferred a cache which, in his opinion, had a container that was ideally suited to the location.

 

2. There was a traditional cache previously hidden at the same rest stop, in one of the many good hiding places that the OP noticed. It was in a tree stump. It went missing and was archived. Perhaps the hider of the new micro took that into consideration when making a choice on container and hiding style.

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There was a traditional cache previously hidden at the same rest stop, in one of the many good hiding places that the OP noticed.  It was in a tree stump.  It went missing and was archived.  Perhaps the hider of the new micro took that into consideration when making a choice on container and hiding style.

Wait...I thought we already established that the hider did absolutely no research before placing that silly micro. :D:lol:

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I hope that wasn't the only reason for your rude log.

Who cares if it was? You know what - if someone thought one of my caches sucked bigtime, I'd want to know about it. Not just for maintenance reasons, but just because they HATED the way I executed the cache. Maybe it's an ammocan someplace with a nice view at the end of a mile long hike. Maybe they hate that type of cache. I'm perfectly fine if they express this feeling. It may or may not get me to change my behavior - but it might. If all the caches nearby were long hikes in the woods, and the person complained because none of 'em were suitable for a lunch-hour caching trip, I might well try to accomodate them. Seriously! I want to do what people like. I want to do what I like to, but I'd think there's a way to do both.

 

I'd point out that last year, I put out a fairly difficult puzzle cache. (As puzzles go, it probably sucked - but it was hard.) Lots of folks who put out EZ micros here locally flamed me for this - it really offended them there was a cache they couldn't log - until I put up the solution to the puzzle, and they could just park-n-grab it. So my perception, from personal experience, is that people who favor easy caches tend to be quick to judge, yet thin-skinned if you complain about EZ micros. I did appreciate the feedback, though, and I haven't hidden a similar type of cache. In fact my next cache after that one was an easy to find, lamp-post micro. If you found a prize in it, you got to log it twice. I placed prizes in it at random intervals - winner take all, no trading allowed. Lots of folks LOVED that cache. Plenty of people made multiple trips back to log that extra smiley. I eventually shut this down in utter shame and disgust.

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If some of your logs read,

...

You might have a good one.

You mean like this one? Benchmark's Big Bad Bushwhack

 

I realize this topic has been beaten to death. Sadly nothing seems to have been learned from the post-mortem. :D

Actually, I guess I did learn one thing from all this. You can criticize a cache for being badly maintained, unsafe, or too difficult. But you can't be critical if it's just too easy.

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I have already altered my log to reflect that sort of change.

I think it's great that you edited your log. Obviously the cache owner cares about what he's doing and probably will improve his hide the next go 'round. (then people will post logs asking why they have to walk so far at a rest stop!). You showed kindness to another cacher, and I'm glad for it. :D

 

Those that are thicker skinned should be aware that most others aren't. This isn't Dodgeball, it's cachin'

 

P.S. if my cache sucks burn me up, I can take it......really :lol:

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I have already altered my log to reflect that sort of change.

I think it's great that you edited your log. Obviously the cache owner cares about what he's doing and probably will improve his hide the next go 'round. (then people will post logs asking why they have to walk so far at a rest stop!). You showed kindness to another cacher, and I'm glad for it. :D

 

Those that are thicker skinned should be aware that most others aren't. This isn't Dodgeball, it's cachin'

 

P.S. if my cache sucks burn me up, I can take it......really :lol:

Add me to that list. I want to know if someone dislikes my cache, as long as they state why.

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Hey, that one is on my to do soon list :D

 

(which is also a good sign for a cache)

OT: Sorry man, it's gone for good. Nearby construction finally claimed it. (Sat empty for 20+ years, I place a cache there and a year later they decide to do something with it.) I feel sorry for whatever they build there - it's in the floodplane. (Well, technically it's not but only because the city, in it's infinite wisdom, decreed that no flooding would happen there.) Even the guys doing the construction think it's stupid to build down there. Still, whoever winds up there will have a nice view of the golf-course, until they float away. The cache location itself was on public property, but the adjacent lot is going to be expensive homes, and as they cleared it out, they seem to have explored the park and gotten the cache. It's possible the city sold the park land to the developer, too. It was a pretty crappy park, and Dallas is pretty darn broke right now.

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if one of my caches really did suck that bad i would be so thankful for having someone with the balls to stand up and say something about it. it is a cache...not my mother. i dont think anyone read the article in the USA TODAY a couple of weeks ago at how there is a thin skinned generation that is being raised. i also have a VEYR hard time with tact? whatever that is. all those people want to be PC...are we losing our right to speak freely?

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haven't I seen this thread before? :D

 

I'm glad that we have a passionate group, all working for they feel is important in Geocaching, in a mostly civil manner.

 

One thing I have seen over the years is that the game takes care of itself, and these issues work themselves out.

 

Y'all have fun out there, and be good to each other!

 

Fishingingfools

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if one of my caches really did suck that bad i would be so thankful for having someone with the balls to stand up and say something about it. it is a cache...not my mother. i dont think anyone read the article in the USA TODAY a couple of weeks ago at how there is a thin skinned generation that is being raised. i also have a VEYR hard time with tact? whatever that is. all those people want to be PC...are we losing our right to speak freely?

You can speak freely without speaking rudely. This is even more true of the written word. What might slip out in while one is speaking, left to hang in the air for your embarrassment, can be more easily avoided in writing.

The real issue is that I don't believe most people would be rude to the cache placer in person. It is the anonymity that spurs some of the more thoughtless remarks.

If you didn't like it say "I didn't enjoy this cache." Explain why. This gives vital info to the placer and future seekers.

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You can speak freely without speaking rudely. This is even more true of the written word. What might slip out in while one is speaking, left to hang in the air for your embarrassment, can be more easily avoided in writing.

The real issue is that I don't believe most people would be rude to the cache placer in person. It is the anonymity that spurs some of the more thoughtless remarks.

If you didn't like it say "I didn't enjoy this cache." Explain why. This gives vital info to the placer and future seekers.

I certainly agree - but in my experience few speak their minds about caches. Even pretty awful caches get a pass most of the time. Example:

 

Fish Eye View

 

While this was a cool cache when it was hidden - a sealed section of PVC pipe dangling by a barely visible tether underwater, the owner bailed out of the game pretty soon after hiding it, and left it there, out in the wild. I found the cache in april. Here's a log from May:

 

Another Fish Eye View Log

 

Now when I found it in April, it was the most disgusting, noisome, slimy mess imaginable. To my shame, I did NOT post a SBA note. But I did mention the generally poor condition of the cache. Heck, it wasn't even a cache at that point - it was a slimy tube on a rope, totally filled with water and muck. There was NO fun inherent in this cache at the time I found it, and there was not even an owner around who was going to have hurt feelings if someone said anything bad about it.

 

My point is that while a few people danced around this issue, nobody really told it like it was until another cache got DENIED because it was a few feet (and I mean just a few) too close to this one, across the pond. (That's another story.) So if you're looking for the logs to tell you that a cache is just god-awful so that you can avoid it, you are apt to be in for a surprise - and not a happy one. Of course this isn't a new situation - this is why the term DPM originated in the first place. But there seems to be no resolution to it, as the chances of bruising the tender egos of hiders trumps just about every other consideration.

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I read a lot of the logs from that cache. Many of them mentioned the problems with the cache. It seems that the owner was inattentive, and I don't know whether being rude would have made any difference in this case. After all, you were "blunt" (your words) and it didn't seem to phase him. I don't think you were rude, though.

 

However he is still caching. A brief look at his stats page shows cache finds as recently as January of this year.

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Although he does appear to have been absent for a long time.

I could fault the owner for leaving the cache unmaintained for such a long period of time, but I don't know the circumstances of his hiatus. As you mentioned, even you didn't log an SBA note, so maybe we , as cachers, need to do this in a more timely fashion when it becomes obvious that the cache has become trash.

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I read a lot of the logs from that cache. Many of them mentioned the problems with the cache. It seems that the owner was inattentive, and I don't know whether being rude would have made any difference in this case. After all, you were "blunt" (your words) and it didn't seem to phase him. I don't think you were rude, though.

 

However he is still caching. A brief look at his stats page shows cache finds as recently as January of this year.

That surprises me - he didn't respond to any of our emails, and at the time he hadn't logged into the site in many months. It looks like he just stopped for about a year.

 

Again, I am ashamed I didn't post a SBA note. I should have done that, and I regret not doing it at the time. I promise you I have not made that mistake again. Generally, if there are maintenance issues, I'll mention it in the cache page unless they are severe, and try to resolve it with a PM to the cache owner. However, if it's a bad enough problem, I'll post a very blunt SBA note that explains why folks shouldn't hunt for the cache, and then email the owner. In the two or three times I've done it since then, folks who looked for the cache risked arrest.

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Why do people continue to go to the kind of caches that disappoint them? Why not be selective, do a little research like checking the cache page before going? (I hope I was tactful :D )

Why do people continue to hide the kind of caches that disappoint us? Why not be selective, do a little research like picking a good location before hiding? It's a two way street, isn't it?

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To "Dead White Man's" question I would say he comments were too harsh.

I would have felt it was an insult and attack on what to all of us is just a big kids game.

I have said this before, sometimes I'm after a P&G (for stats) and sometimes on a hike, it's the OOHHHSSS! and AAAHHHSSS!!.

I will never attack another Geocacher for placing a cache.( lame or not)

To me the only time it's lame, is when I don't find it. (my fault ,not the placers)

To be truthfull I have had more trouble finding micros in parks than a .50 Cal ammo can in the boonies.

And since I have not placed any, and others have only placed a few, I would not too quick too judge the efforts of others, D.P.M. or not.

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Why should all caches have to pass your test? Other people like micros (even ones that are in small parks in rest areas).

That again. Yes, obviously the hider has no responsibility to do anything that anyone might like, and it's totally up to the finder to figure out which ones he might like, despite the fact that no negative information whatsoever can be conveyed by other finders. What was I thinking? Clearly it's a much more enjoyable game for someone who doesn't like quick finds to go wading through dozens and dozens of cache listings to find one that looks promising - only to get there, realize it's mis-labeled, and find a terrain 2.5 with a 50' roundtrip walk from parking to the cache. :D

 

Forget about quality though - it's obvious to me there's little interest in this subject here. Look, at this point I don't care - I understand people like these types of hides a lot. Lots of people really, really like them. If folks want to play that way - that's fine by me. Honestly! I really have no desire to try to impose my will over them, and make them stop. I'm quite disappointed, but not surprised, that more folks don't seem to agree with me, but that's the breaks.

 

What I'd like is for the website here to provide me a reasonable way to avoid most of these types of hides. (Sure, secretly I'd like this to not be an issue at all, but I know that's not going to happen - it is too late for that.) If I could more or less mask their existence and didn't ever have to see them again, that would be even better. It's somewhat difficult to do that with the tools available today. It's not like I want to avoid 10 or 20% of the current local hides - it's probably like 75-80% of them. If I'm going to spend time planning my caching, I'd like to spend it figuring out the best approach to a cache, not wading through dozens of listings that I dislike.

 

The trouble is that when there's a lot of quick to find caches, there tends to be a lot of listings to wade through. If it were easy for me and folks that like the larger caches with longer walks to ignore these, we could do our thing, y'all could do yours, and I'd be happy as a clam. It's not like I'd want a particularly sophisticated filter - a minimum roundtrip distance would probably come pretty close to doing it, or even an indicator that the cache is intended to be found very, very quickly, so I could just ignore it.

 

Personally, I think it might be better if quick, small hides were distinct from more traditional caches, but that wouldn't be necessary. "Speed" finds vs. "Classic" finds - both versions of the game viewed equally. No judgement on which one was better. No reason a person couldn't play both if they so desired. Just a nod that perhaps the quick cache at a strip mall wasn't precisely the same experience as a moderate to long hike ending in an ammobox.

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Why do people continue to go to the kind of caches that disappoint them?  Why not be selective, do a little research like checking the cache page before going?  (I hope I was tactful  :lol: )

Why do people continue to hide the kind of caches that disappoint us? Why not be selective, do a little research like picking a good location before hiding? It's a two way street, isn't it?

There are many caches that I do not do that others would call a "good" cache. I do not like climbing big hills for the most part so I won't do caches with a terrain over 3. I don't like micors or urban caches because I like to get out in the woods of posible (but not always).

 

So I go to the geocaching map (or use PQ's) to find parks where I like moderate hikes.

 

Would you want places to advertise vacations spots that only you like to go to? Or do you search through the ads and pick the places that interest you? How about cars? Hiking boots? Computers? cameras types ie 35mm, medium format, film vs digital? Blondes and brunettes? (Hmmm :D )

 

What a boring world if it was all the same.

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If you can't say something nice........ TNLNTFTC. :D

 

I had a group of guys go for a cache series of mine in the Sierras. They panned it because THEY couldn't find the final bonus cache. Imagine my surprise when I find out that this is MY fault for wasting their time.

 

The half dozen or so people who had completed the series before had a few difficulties, (Some were admittedly my fault. Heck, I had never attempted anything like this before.) but managed to find the bonus cache to end the series. All were very appreciative that I had taken them on an extensive tour of some of the most beautiful terrain in the world and into areas that MOST tourists would never see. Not to mention that I had PERSONALLY checked the caches less than eight week prior and everything checked out according to the info on the cache pages.

 

One of those original finders has better than 4,000 finds and lists the bonus in his top 1% find list. I consider that an honor and validation of the project.

 

So, these guys attempt my series WITHOUT fully reading the caches in my opinion. Did I mention that ALL of these caches were in 5 star terrain? Did I mention that the atmospheric conditions were reeeeeeeally bad on the day they chose to hunt them? Did I mention that one of the caches had gone missing after I checked them and I gave these guys the actual coords of the bonus BEFORE they headed out because there were going to replace the missing stage with a micro for me?

 

They were standing in one of the truly beautiful secluded places that I know of personally and they failed to take stock of this because they couldn't find the stinkin' cache. Of course it was alllll MY fault. :D I feel sorry for people who think this way.

4ef15c16-6880-48ea-99c3-8b26aa1040e5.jpg

 

Too many people in this sport fail to take responsibility for their own experiences. :huh: It's one of the few major personality flaws of what I'm starting to think of as the "Geocacher Personality Type."

 

The hider is playing a game called geocaching. They are evidently playing it right because their cache was approved.

 

You are also playing a GAME (sport/hobby/obsession/etc.) evidently called MY version of Geocaching 1.5, or maybe even 2.O. You seem to be failing at your game if you are not able to enjoy it.

 

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."

TotemLake 4/26/04 (Oh, did I mention that I got a rather nasty email reply to my posting of this quote on the cache page after their DNF? :lol: )

Edited by Snoogans
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There is such a thing as filtering out the easy ones you know. If you like it difficult, filter the the 3 stars and below out. I suppose you know about this. I'm a newbie and I figured that out within a few hours... Don't go looking for easy micros then complain about them. There are people like me who like easy ones. I filter out the hard ones. There you go.

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There is such a thing as filtering out the easy ones you know. If you like it difficult, filter the the 3 stars and below out. I suppose you know about this. I'm a newbie and I figured that out within a few hours... Don't go looking for easy micros then complain about them. There are people like me who like easy ones. I filter out the hard ones. There you go.

Do you find that there are more hard caches or easy ones in your area? I hope you have a good variety of different kinds to choose from. Easy ones, hard ones, ones in between, puzzles, multicaches. It used to be like that here.

 

I'm in N. Texas. It's flat. There's not any 4* terrain here. I really don't go looking for easy caches and then complain about them. I'm complaining because mostly I'm not looking for caches because I'm surrounded by easy caches that I don't much care for. Terrain here mostly indicates whether or not there's a creek crossing, or overgrowth. It sometimes factors in distance. It's pretty hard to tell. I can't tell you how many I've driven to, only to go, 'forget it', and then left.

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