Mystery Caches That Are Multis

[+Pengy&Tigger]

We've had the debate about caches that are listed as traditional that turn out to be multi's, but what about those that are listed as mystery caches that should be multi's?

 

My interpretation (which may be wrong) of the mystery cache type is that there is usually a puzzle to be solved, or the cache is a mystery container. If a cache involves collecting some numbers and doing some basic maths, or picking up co-ords from another container, then it would be better to be listed as a multi.

 

What are everyone's opinions on the following:

 

That's Magic- Smile or Scowl

Rainbow Indigo (and the rest of the series)

Hang up and run to me

Say Hello to Pete

Bowland CRoW - The Three Towers

 

Some of these could be mystery containers, which is fair enough, but I reckon the majority are either multis or offsets (which should be listed as multis).

 

Are people using this type because it is trendy, or are they just afraid of using the multi cache type in case nobody visits their cache?

 

T

Edited February 26, 2005 by Pengy&Tigger

[+DomHeknows]

I've only done hang up and run to me (hangs head in shame) but that would classify it as a mystery as it is not very obvious what to do (or even find the first part). But then again, you could say the same thing about cache for a laugh....

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Hang up and run to me was the one I was thinking could possibly be a mystery, which Ill concede on. What about the others?

[Leoness]

I came across one the other day which is listed as a mystery cache because you need to solve a puzzle but when you get to the co-ords, you find a small cache with another puzzle inside which also hints that there is another stage to solve too, before finally locating the cache (none of which is indicated in the cache description as I think it is deliberately meant to deceive).

 

I shan't name it in here but I did find it a bit annoying as I shall probably not be going back to that area to complete it.

Edited February 26, 2005 by Leoness

[Team 'James W']

Our maths series can all be done independantly but involve doing a puzzle to find them so they're listed as mystery caches. The final exam though, requires numbers that you (optionally) collect from all the lessons. Because you have to find four other caches to get it, I submitted this as a multi. However, it was approved as another mystery cache, which Eckington and I agreed to disagree on!

 

The 'official' decision on this one would therefore also go against your thinking (which I share)..

 

If a cache involves collecting some numbers and doing some basic maths, or picking up co-ords from another container, then it would be better to be listed as a multi

 

Guess I find it a bit confusing.......

[+Pengy&Tigger]

I agree it's confusing. I didn't list your maths exam cache here as I can see a case for it being a multi and a puzzle. On the one hand you pick up the numbers from other caches, but what you do with them isn't 'basic' maths.

 

I guess it's a fine line.

 

T

[+Pieman]

As two of the caches mentioned are mine, I suppose I should explain my thinking. On both "That's Magic" and "Hang up and run to me" I considered making them multis but decided that this would be misleading given that the latter involves a puzzle and the former requires more thought than searching. I thought that some people might be miffed if they set out on a multi only to find that the cache wasn't just about finding a series of boxes or clues.

 

Now, having only this week read the geocaching.com definition of a puzzle cache, I guess that both of the above don't meet this definition, but I still feel that this classification better describes them than multis. If people who have found these caches disagree, I would be happy to change them to multis, however.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Pieman,

 

Out of all the caches on my list, yours are the ones that sit on the 'fine line', and could be either. I should point out that that I didn't mean to demand anything be changed, just to try and clarify what we should be listing things as. It won't stop me attempting to find any or all of the caches listed above!

 

T

[+dysdera]

IMHO I think it qualifies as a mystery if it has something of note or unusual at the location that is not covered in the description. Again this is a very fine line as one mans/womans object of note is anothers waste of time!!

I made a cache of my own a mystery (GCMCHF) because I felt that what was hidden in the bush was well worthy of a mention but would be a nice bonus for visiting what is a very easy cache to find.

I guess it is all about perception, whereas some are obviously multis, one near the new forest called 'squirrels nest' is probably one of the nicest I have been to especially as I have children who cache with me at the weekend.

[Team 'James W']

Without repeating myself hopefully(!) the reason I was so adamant that my final Maths Exam was a multi was because it would be impossible to find without finding other caches. To me, the fact that you had to visit other locations overides the fact that a puzzle is involved to get the final co-ords, making it (in my eyes) a multi more than a mystery!.......To make it clear to people that you will have to visit other caches, and travel to other places, to find this cache.

 

Just MHO!

 

Hope that makes sense!!

[+Pieman]

No problem, Tigger. I guess the main thing in describing the cache is to make sure cachers know what to expect. For instance, on a slightly different tack, I like it when the cache description gives some idea of how long a walk it is to the cache as at the weekend I like a nice walk but if I'm doing a cache in the week I'm normally short of time.

[+kbootb]

I thought about one that I set and ended up making is a puzzle as the only real cache involved was the final one, all the other stages are number gathering. I thought the idea of a multi was when the stages involved a number of real caches e.g. a series of micros.

[+Bill D (wwh)]

kbootb wrote:

I thought the idea of a multi was when the stages involved a number of real caches e.g. a series of micros.

Not really, no. For example, the gc.com guidelines state that offset caches should be listed as multis, and offsets have a first stage where there's no container, only numbers to be collected.

 

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. ...

With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker...

As to other multis, the guidelines aren't specific, but in practice many multis have a number of virtual early stages, with the only physical container being at the final location.

[+sTeamTraen]

It seems that American approvers interpret the rules differently from those over here. For example, one of my caches which had been a traditional, and then acquired a simple offset, got reclassified (during a moment of approver zeal) as a Mystery. The approver in question must have been bored or something - he changed the types of about 10 caches in my area, including a couple where the description was in German only, a language which AFAIK he doesn't speak, based purely on what he thought the description meant .

 

Personally I would have still called it a traditional, but apparently in the US this gives problems because >>90% of their caches are traditionals and a lot of people go paperless caching - they slurp 1000 caches into their GPSr with GSAK, then drive around without the cache sheet and assume that that cache will be at the waypoint coords.

 

Personally I think anyone who goes out without the cache page (and the spolier photos!) wants their head examining, but OK, if my offset cache can't be a traditional, it should maybe be a two-stage multi. But not a Mystery - those should have something good and unusual about them: lots of work at home, a WiFi connection to find, etc.

 

In one case the "Mystery" description is so wrong that I posted a reviewer note (over a months ago) asking for it to be put back to traditional or multi. Did that help ? Did it heckers...

Edited February 26, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[+harrogate hunters]

I have a mystery that involves finding three micro's one after the other in sequence, the first leading to the second, etc etc

 

Once visited you have to plot on a map. These three locations form an equalateral triangle, with the final proper cache box exactly in the middle of this 4ish square mile triangle.

 

It is clearly stated on the cache page that there are four parts to find, and I classified it as a mystery after consulting with other cachers at the time ?

 

Is this a mystery as you have to do further work rather than just following a GPS, or is it really just an offset Multi ?

 

As someone previously has said, its sometimes seems to be down to interpretation.....

 

Some people might not like it as they have to find 4 locations in order to claim one cache ! - But It's not just a numbers game isn't it !

[+Pengy&Tigger]

HH,

 

I think the 'puzzle' element is the key. As you have to triangulate in your cache, I think it qualifies as a puzzle. Some might say our battleships cache is a multi, even though it is listed as a puzzle. Yes you do have to visit several locations to gather info, but it's what you have to do with the info that makes it a puzzle.

 

T

[+CuplaKiwis]

Just got back into the country after a month abroad, and my eyes alighted directly on this thread... I have developed a somewhat masochistic love of these!

 

Surprised no one has quoted this yet -

 

"Mystery or puzzle caches

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location."

 

Think that answers the original question.

[+Stuey]

"Mystery or puzzle caches

The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location."

I had the final cache of a series approved as a mystery/puzzle this morning. I don't consider it a multi in the true sense of the word, it's more of a traditional, but to have it recorded as a traditional would be wrong, as the co-ords need to be found from the other three caches in the series.

 

I'm using the bit that says that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location (or in my case, about 200 yards out to sea).

[+Pengy&Tigger]

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location."

 

Think that answers the original question.

I don't think it does. Say you have a cache where the listed co-ords are for parking. You then have to find a micro which gives you the co-ords of the final cache. This fits the description for both multi and mystery, although most people would say it was a multi.

 

T

[+kbootb]

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location."

 

Think that answers the original question.

I don't think it does. Say you have a cache where the listed co-ords are for parking. You then have to find a micro which gives you the co-ords of the final cache. This fits the description for both multi and mystery, although most people would say it was a multi.

 

T

I agree with your confusion! The cache that I own that I am puzzling about has a few 'virtuals' i.e. the co-ords point to the parking spot, then find the numbers from 3 locations, then do the maths and find the real cache.

 

I was convinced that it was a puzzle/mystery, then Bill D's reply convinced me that it was a multi, then cuplakiwis convinced me that it is a puzzle.

 

I give up.... it's a cache. The description makes it clear what's invloved. It counts as one cache whichever way you look at it.

[+Bill D (wwh)]

kbootb wrote:

I give up.... it's a cache. The description makes it clear what's invloved. It counts as one cache whichever way you look at it.

Indeed, yes. One could dispute the finer points for ever, but the important thing, it seems to me, is that it's not listed as a traditional. Whether it's listed as a multi or a mystery cache, the point is made that it's not a simple "go to the co-ords and find the box". Either multi or mystery will do, and it's then up to people to read the cache page.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

True, but it means that if you like to do a certain type (i.e. mystery caches), it's impossible to do a search for just those, as there are loads of multis in there. I've just done a quick search of all caches placed in the last 3 months within 50 miles of home:

 

Multis: 11

Mysteries: 27

 

We'll still have a go at them all, as we enjoy both of those cache types. It's just that sometimes we're in the mood for mysteries, and sometimes multis. Incidentally, our stats are showing only 2 UK multis found in the last 3 months

 

T

[+CuplaKiwis]

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location."

 

Think that answers the original question.

I don't think it does. Say you have a cache where the listed co-ords are for parking. You then have to find a micro which gives you the co-ords of the final cache. This fits the description for both multi and mystery, although most people would say it was a multi.

 

T

Think it still does (imho!).

 

The problem is similar to the "All dogs have tails. My cat has a tail, therefore my cat is a dog" argument. Just because a cache is not at the listed coordinates, doesn't immediately make it a Mystery cache. "Solving complicated puzzles" is not just collecting coords from virtuals, doing a bit of math and then going to the final location. I think GC.com has hit the nail on the head by describing a Mystery as a catch-all. This seems to indicate that there will be something of a grey area.

 

Say you have a cache where the listed co-ords are for parking. You then have to find a micro which gives you the co-ords of the final cache. This fits the description for both multi and mystery, although most people would say it was a multi.

 

It would be a heck of a stretch to call this a mystery, but yes, it does prove the point. Grey area indeed. The way the mystery category seems to me, appearing as it did quite some time after the original categories were established, is that we should try to fit a cache into the other categories first. If it won't comfortably go, then it's a mystery!!

 

 

BTW, in reference to the original post, I don't believe that a mystery container alone should ever be enough to qualify as a Mystery cache - refer the the "The only commonality..." bit. This would simply be a very well hidden traditional (or micro or multi or...).

 

Cheers,

Aidan

[+º]

This is how I use multi/mystery:

 

multi: take the description of the cache and your GPSr and you'll find the cache

 

mystery: have a look at the description before you leave home otherwise you won't find anything.

 

There might be some exceptions but most of the times it works. Btw. have a look at this thread:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=91095

[markandlynn]

The classic axample here is the alchemy series. They are all multi's ie you find two caches to find the next one until you reach the last one where you solve some questions to find the last cache hence its a mystery cache.

To me a multi is when you find other caches or containers to get the coordinates for the final cache a mystery is when you do more than just find noxes in the woods. A category of puzzle cache for solve the puzzle to find the cache would be nice.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

The classic axample here is the alchemy series. They are all multi's ie you find two caches to find the next one until you reach the last one where you solve some questions to find the last cache hence its a mystery cache.

I'd agree with that.

[+washboy]

There's a series of Mystery caches in London of which only one has a container (micro) - the other six are Virtuals. They can all be walked within two hours.

 

To my mind, the seven represent a single Multi but they are listed as seven distinct Mystery caches.

 

Great for the numbers-men, I guess!

[+Simply Paul]

Throwing myself into the fray:

 

Traditional - You know what this is

 

Virtual - As above.

 

Multi - Location on the cache page is for the first location (or perhaps parking, as seen on another thread). At this location may be a (micro?) cache container or a 'virtual' location which gives information required to find the final cache. If this is a single virtual stage it's an offset cache - a simple multi. Several stages (one leading to another, or all the co-ords being given on the page which just need to be visited and info gathered) make a more complicated multi. Simple enough.

 

Reverse/Locationless - See Traditional

 

Puzzle - Something a little beyond the ordinary. A cache where the given co-ords aren't for it - and it's not a multi in the accepted sense. Perhaps you need to gather information from other caches, over a wide area, or there's some other surprise or twist. Perhaps a quiz or research to do online, or some fairly obscure knowledge to have about the cache's theme. Locate an object shown on the cache page which is within a given distance of the quoted co-ords and use it's co-ords to find the final cache. Some lateral thinking to find it, even. Just something which says 'this is not a trad or a basic/complex multi'.

 

Wide area multis where there's a cache at each location often work better as traditionals (with log books) leading to a final puzzle cache - 'co-ords unknown'. Everything then fits into the descriptions above and yes, it's good for the numbers folks. However, if the caches are fairly close together they could/should be combined into a single multi. I think our brave Reviewers have the power to request this is done now.

 

Examples:

 

Find a coded inscription on a monument. Could be pictograms. Decode with a cypher given on the cache page - this leads you on to a hide = Puzzle.

 

The cache is where the co-ords on the page say it should be, but it's such a weird location (with no spoilers on the cache page) to call it a trad seems silly = Trad. Just one with a cool twist.

 

Date on a building = ABCD. Cache hidden at N53 AB.CDA W002 DC.BAA = Multi. (Offset)

 

Cache page gives parking. Final location is N51 0(MMM).(DCCLXIX) E001 3(MM).(CDIV) = Puzzle (but not a very difficult one!)

 

The cache can only be reached by boat. It has a symbol on the log book cover which, when used with a table on another cache, leads to a final cache = Trad.

 

The cache reached from the cache above (plus several more, perhaps) so long as it's a separate location with some other point to it = Puzzle. Could be combined into a multi if it's all on the same smallish island - perhaps?

 

Moving cache, where you leave the co-ords to the location where you moved it in a micro = Puzzle.

 

Multi, but the cache page gives you more than one possible hide so you're forced to make a guess... and if you're wrong you have a long walk or drive to the other location(s) = Puzzle.

 

And so on.

 

Ultimately, given things are open to interpretation (mine above!) the text of the cache page should always be given a good read before attempting any cache.

 

SP

 

P.S. Looked at a couple of P&Ts examples, and have to agree they look more like multis than puzzles to me.

Edited February 28, 2005 by Simply Paul