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Looking for a decent snake bite kit..any suggestions?


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I am sure this has been asked but sorry... I read until my eyes were blurry and I see alot of talk about the stuff but can't find any posts on what is a good kit and where to get one from (I am not saying that there are not any posts but I just can't find them).

 

Any suggestions?

 

** Edit: Corrected title from Snike to Snake... dadgum typos!! icon_biggrin.gif **

 

Thanks!

 

Live to Cache... Cache to Live...

 

[This message was edited by Team Spending Time, Saving Cache on May 21, 2003 at 11:46 AM.]

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Places like REI, G.I. Joes, Cabelas, Fred Meyer's, Sports Authority, just to name a few. Basically any sporting goods store that stock camping supplies should have a basic snake bite kit. It really isn't much but a suction kit for snake and insect bites with tweezers for stingers. It also comes with some benzine wipes for taking the sting out of insect bites. I forget how much mine cost but it shouldn't be much more than $5 give or take a buck.

 

Cheers!

TL

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What you need is the sawyer extractor it is the only one recomended. sawyer products.com

I think Adventure medical kits has them in some of they're kits.

 

Leemann

 

Captain gps needs batteries got any?. Hows the Enterprise

sposed to navigate way out here with out em?

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Everything I've read about snake bite treatment indicates the Sawyer Extractor mentioned by Leemann is probably the best you can do for rattle snakes bites with the US varieties of pit vipers. Fortunately, I've never had to use one for a snake bite, but can vouch for the fact they work good on scorpin bites.

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So long as you're not days from civilization, I've always been told the best snake bit "kit" is a set of car keys and a waypoint for the nearest emergency room. Add to that a cell phone in the event coverage is available.

 

The odds of a healthy adult dying from a snake bite (North America) are slim.

 

Were my child bitten, I'd much rather make a mad dash for real medical care than putting them at risk with some $10 gadget.

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I edited my reply because it turns out I was speaking very old doctrine.

 

IF transportation is not readily available, you should spend about 30 seconds to a minute to perform the extraction firstaid then seek professional medical help as quickly as possible.

 

As noted at UCSD Health Care :

 

Dr. Findlay Russell, a world renowned expert on snake envenomation, once said that the best first aid for rattlesnake bites is your car keys. Instead of trying to perform ineffective first-aid procedures, driving the victim to either a health care facility or to a telephone where help can be summoned is the best first aid. The only first aid treatment that has been suggested to produce even minor benefit is the use of the Sawyer Extraction Pump. This device applies suction to the fang marks and if started immediately after a bite, may remove 15-20% of the injected venom. These devices can be purchased at many sporting goods and outdoor supply stores. However, this device has never been shown to prevent or lessen the effects of a rattlesnake bite and its use should never delay taking the victim to a hospital. Making incisions in the fang marks, applying cold, and using a tourniquet have all been shown to be either ineffective or dangerous.

 

Cheers!

TL

 

[This message was edited by TotemLake on May 21, 2003 at 09:29 AM.]

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Thanks for the info Totem. We've a Sawyer for stings and such but wasn't aware it'd do much for snake bites. I guess I'll keep it around.

 

The problem I'd heard about the kits is that even the most effective can only remove a tiny fraction of the venom. Venom from a snake bite is farther under the skin than an insect sting and the puncture wound acts somewhat like a one-way valve making removal of the venom ineffective.

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No problem. Firstaid is exactly what it is; First aid. It isn't meant to supplant professional medical attention, it is meant to delay the devestating effects of the injury long enough to reach professional medical attention.

 

Considering the shape of the fangs is cone shaped, and the pointy end does go in first, I can see why it's considered one way, but given enough suction, you whould still be able to get some out.

 

Like the report stated, you can only extract upto 20% of the venom if immediately applied. The effects of that extraction is minimal. However, IF I gotta walk more than 1/4 mile to the car, I think I'd want 75%-80% of the venom in me versus 100%. My firstaid kit is located at the top of my backpack with the snake kit easily accessable.

 

I used to wander around in diamond back country quite a bit down in San Diego and in the hottest of weather would wear lace-up leather boots that would cover the complete calf. You never knew when you would find yourself in the midst of a rattler OR worse yet, a colony of rattlers that was as equally scared of you as you are of it.

 

Cheers!

TL

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Actually, a lot of people, including The Croc Hunter icon_smile.gif recommend wrapping the limb with an ace bandage or some other pressure bandage. For example, if the bite is near the ankle, you'd want to wrap the bandage up to your knee at least.

 

By wrapping "above" the bite, you slow the transfer of venom, without cutting off circulation.

 

-Cody

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I live in the Uk, we dont have snakes ....... we dont have anything really, no alligators, no bears, no snakes ..... the worst thing that can happen to you on a British cache hunt is a nasty grass cut ha ha. However I was in florida two weeks ago, around longboat key and I did not know we were in snake country? Was I in any danger?

 

All the best pepperpot

 

Pepperpot is actually my dog, she's a miniature schnauzer that comes on all our cache hunts.

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quote:
cmachler said:

 

Actually, a lot of people, including The Croc Hunter recommend wrapping the limb with an ace bandage or some other pressure bandage. For example, if the bite is near the ankle, you'd want to wrap the bandage up to your knee at least.


 

Most of what I've read doesn't recommend that method of first aid for the snakes who's toxin is primarily of the tissue destruction type. (The type of toxin in most of the rattlesnakes in my area) It can supposedly make localized destruction worse, and lead to amputations. You see the constriction band, or bandage recommendation a lot in areas where the venon is of a nervous system type, such as most Austrailian vipers. In some parts of the southernmost States, like the area you're in, I think they have both types, so learning to identify what bit you is probably more important when it comes to initiating the proper first aid.

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Pepperpot

There is one poisonous snake in england. The Adder. I saw one on a hike in W. Sussex on Black Moor it was just sunning it's self on the path in front of me!! First and only. Now here in San Diego I remind myself everytime I go for a hike that rattlers are around but have seen only 3 and heard a 4th!!

Jane

In San Diego but from Chicheser W. Sussex UK

 

'Women are like teabags. We don't know our true strength until we are in hot water!'

Eleanor Roosevelt

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A couple of things: it's probably good to know what snakes you might encounter in the area you're caching. Here, if it's not a rattlesnake, it's not poisonous.

 

Also, I've read that the first 'defensive' bite, at least from a rattlesnake, is unlikely to contain much venom. Of course you still want to get medical attention, but maybe repeating that soothing mantra will slow your pulse a little, which is probably good in these situations.

 

We've been rattled at once -- startling, but at least the buggers try to warn you off. We gave it a wide berth.

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Well we have just a few of those rattle bugs here in West Texas. I work in surgery and have seen some wild field treatments including a guy cutting his Radial Nerve and artery. One lady just about cut her leg off with a peace of wire that she used to make a tourniquet.

Bottom line is to keep calm. A constrictive dressing works,but do not use a tourniquet.

Lets go back before you get bit. Some simple things.

1. Hike with a stick. If you are going through brush let the stick go first.

2. Know that you are in their home and watch your manners there.

3. Do not place any body part in areas that you can not see clearly into. Even then use the stick to make sure its clear.

4. Do NOT Run. Easy way to step on or fall into somthing you really dont want to.

5. DO NOT PLAY WITH SNAKES!!!

6. If you go looking for trouble you will find it.

7. Dead snakes CAN BITE AND INJECT!!!

8. They dont always rattle!

9. If you leave them alone but they really are Pi$$ed off they tend to forget what the book said. I have had them come at me with me leaving it alone.

10. The book says they can and will do things its just the ones that do not read the book you have to worry about.

In 20+ years of working in surgery I have seen more brown recluse bites than snake bites. I think I would rather have a snake bite.

Watch out for the little brown spider.

Rick

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Let's not forget cotton mouths and copperheads both located in the southern states and both very aggressive. They will chase you.

 

And yes, for rattlers with short tempers, I did have a friend whom if he did not stop as soon as he heard the rattle, would have been a very sick boy. 1/2 second of rattling and the snake sprung from the bush not more than 6 inches in front of him and at calf level. Scared him $hitle$$ and he wouldn't come back down in the canyon for a solid year.

 

Cheers!

TL

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quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:

Let's not forget cotton mouths and copperheads both located in the southern states and both very aggressive. They will chase you.

 

And yes, for rattlers with short tempers, I did have a friend whom if he did not stop as soon as he heard the rattle, would have been a very sick boy. 1/2 second of rattling and the snake sprung from the bush not more than 6 inches in front of him and at calf level. Scared him $hitle$$ and he wouldn't come back down in the canyon for a solid year.

 

Cheers!

TL


Don't cache in Africa! Teh most poisonous snake in the world...the bushmaster or is it the black mamba or something like will chase you down...very fast. I want to quote over 20 mph but don't hold me to that fact. It was on the Discovery Channel.

 

On snake bite kits, I've heard and read that it's advisable to not to use them if you can get to a doctor quickly. You can actually make things worse easily by using them incorrectly.

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quote:
Originally posted by evergreenhiker!:

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:

Let's not forget cotton mouths and copperheads both located in the southern states and both very aggressive. They will chase you.

 

And yes, for rattlers with short tempers, I did have a friend whom if he did not stop as soon as he heard the rattle, would have been a very sick boy. 1/2 second of rattling and the snake sprung from the bush not more than 6 inches in front of him and at calf level. Scared him $hitle$$ and he wouldn't come back down in the canyon for a solid year.

 

Cheers!

TL


Don't cache in Africa! Teh most poisonous snake in the world...the bushmaster or is it the black mamba or something like will chase you down...very fast. I want to quote over 20 mph but don't hold me to that fact. It was on the Discovery Channel.

 

On snake bite kits, I've heard and read that it's advisable to not to use them if you can get to a doctor quickly. You can actually make things worse easily by using them incorrectly.


 

True. That goes back to my earlier comments in this thread.

 

The URL posted there is worth the read.

 

Cheers!

TL

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agree that the best first aid is going to the hospital. that said, the sawyer extracter seems to offer some benefit. a constricting bandage or tourniquet will only exacerbate the tissue destruction at the wound site, and therefore should not be used. remember that the pit vipers in the u.s. are able to regulate their dose of venom and that a good portion of snake bites are "dry" bites with no envenomation. venom requires energy to produce and the snake will not waste it on something he obviously can't eat unless he feels extremely threatened. working in an emergency department for a while in n.c. we usually gave supportive care and observed the victim for signs and symptoms of envenomation rather than immediately giving anti-venom as a lot of people have worse reactions to the anti-venom than to the snake bite. and lastly, don't worry about the snakes. chances of being bitten are very small. one is much more likely to be bitten by a "sick" tick than a poisonous snake. see you out there. -harry

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I have to admit I've spent WAY more time looking for rattlesnakes than I have geocaching, and there are a lot of great tips on here already, but thought I'd put my two bits in. If you are really really worried about being bitten, you can purchase a small, pack-ready vial of a genral purpose antivenin from some medical supply companies (look around on the web). The sooner you start receiving antivenom treatment the better off you will be. Just remember DONT cut the wound, this will only make it worse. DONT run- increased heartrate makes the venom work faster. DONT apply ice or a tight tourniquet, this often causes more tissue dammage than the bite itself. DONT try to identify the snake. The antivenom you will receive at the hospital is a "coctail" designed to work against the two types of venom you will encounter in the US. Snakes, even venemous ones, are beautiful and something to enjoy -at a distance.

 

Happy caching!

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Well i got my cammo back pack about rigged out.... I have the sawyer snake bite suction kit, first aid kit, extra batteries, my notes, maps, My eTrex Venture GPS for a backup and my new Magellan Meridian Platinum GPS, My Fully Charged cell phone, my 1 mile whistle, flashlight.

 

Also in my sack, is a large tupperware which has all my booty in it!

 

Not packing any heat because I do not have a permit yet.

 

Still working on a walking stick... found some good ones, but they need to be dried out and then clearcoated.

 

Right now I am up here in the Brooksville area and think I will try some cache tomorrow. They're loaded ino the gps's,etc should be fun.

 

Live to Cache... Cache to Live...

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quote:
Eswau said:

 

A biting scorpin - that's something I would pay to see


 

Ah, well you see... Ummm ahhh Oh yea... that long tail with the sharp looking point on the end is really just there to distract you. While you're watching the stinger, they gnaw away on your leg with their little teeth....... icon_rolleyes.gif

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I was bit by a copperhead while in the wilderness with no kit. (I survived!?) After doing extensive research on snakebites and pit-vipers I found that often times the snake does not leave a large dose of venom (Vipers have the ability to size their venom dose). Unless the snake is perceiving a threat, it will usually only "full-dose" if it is killing prey.

 

Therefore, as concluded by most of my sources, the best first aid is to relax and not force the venom through your system. If it is necessary to be active, the best temporary remedy is a tourniqet application. You still must release the pressure often, though, so the most important thing is to get to real medical attention as quickly as possible.

 

The majority of my research indicated that snakebite "kits" are basically worthless (and they consume valuable time that should be used obtaining professional attention).

 

The best remedy is to maintain awareness in the wild, wear protective clothing, and above all, don't play with snakes. About 98% of all snakebite fatalities occur with snake handlers and stupid people.

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Also in the way of prevention, as well as a snake stick, you might want to invest in a pair of snake boots or snake leggings. I got a pair from Cabelas.com. I go hunting where it would be a good hour's hike out, and I do it alone, so it would be a bad situation if I got bit. I wear the leggings and use a stick and have the sawyer extracter in my pack.

 

Deer laugh when they hear my name!

http://www.geocities.com/ihunts

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quote:
About 98% of all snakebite fatalities occur with snake handlers and stupid people.

 

Perhaps in the US, but I would imagine that number is lower worldwide. I think in other parts of the world (mostly 3rd world) farmers and the like still see their share of deaths by snakebite. Two bigger reasons than we have in the US (1) Meaner and more venomous snakes and (2) Medical treatment harder to come by - either further awayor nonexistant.

 

Eswau

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Excerpted from the FDA page of For Goodness Snakes!

 

Many health-care professionals embrace just a few basic first-aid techniques. According to the American Red Cross, these steps should be taken:

 

Wash the bite with soap and water.

Immobilize the bitten area and keep it lower than the heart.

Get medical help.

"The main thing is to get to a hospital and don't delay," says Hardy. "Most bites don't occur in real isolated situations, so it is feasible to get prompt [medical care]." He describes cases in Arizona where people have caught rattlesnakes for sport and gotten bitten. "They waited until they couldn't stand the pain anymore and finally went to the hospital after the venom had been in there a few hours. But by then, they'd lost an opportunity for [effective treatment]," which increased the odds of long-term complications. Some medical professionals, along with the American Red Cross, cautiously recommend two other measures:

 

If a victim is unable to reach medical care within 30 minutes, a bandage, wrapped two to four inches above the bite, may help slow venom. The bandage should not cut off blood flow from a vein or artery. A good rule of thumb is to make the band loose enough that a finger can slip under it.

A suction device may be placed over the bite to help draw venom out of the wound without making cuts. Suction instruments often are included in commercial snakebite kits.

 

Further; they go on to say How NOT to Treat a Snakebite.

Though US medical professionals may not agree on every aspect of what to do for snakebite first aid, they are nearly unanimous in their views of what not to do. Among their recommendations:

 

No ice or any other type of cooling on the bite. Research has shown this to be potentially harmful.

No tourniquets. This cuts blood flow completely and may result in loss of the affected limb.

No electric shock. This method is under study and has yet to be proven effective. It could harm the victim.

No incisions in the wound. Such measures have not been proven useful and may cause further injury

 

Cheers!

TL

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Hey Totem...need your expertise again.

 

I note that your latest post indicates that ice is an absolute no-no on snakebites. Any indication why or conjecture? Is it for fear that pain or lack of feeling might increase likelihood of frostbite?

 

I would figure ice could help slow the blood flow and, therefore, the spread of the venom.

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I'd second (22nd?) the recommendation for the Sawyer extractor. Keys, car, and urgent care are better, but at least the thing has been shown to be somewhat effective.

 

Better still, it works pretty well at removing stingers, etc., and I have actually used it that way. All things considered, I'd be more worried about people having adverse effects to insect stings than snake bites in most parts of the US. If you are willing to put an extractor in your first aid kit, you might want to consider getting a prescription for an Epi-pen from your doctor to go in their as well.

 

I started carrying one after getting swarmed by bees in Joshua Tree National Park.

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by latvija:

Hey Totem...need your expertise again.

 

I note that your latest post indicates that ice is an absolute no-no on snakebites. Any indication why or conjecture? Is it for fear that pain or lack of feeling might increase likelihood of frostbite?

 

I would figure ice could help slow the blood flow and, therefore, the spread of the venom.


 

Edited this message because I found the real reason you don't use ice...

 

As noted in UC Davis Health System, Applying ice or a tourniquet can block circulation, which can result in gangrene and eventual loss of the limb due to amputation.

 

Cheers!

TL

 

[This message was edited by TotemLake on May 28, 2003 at 08:38 PM.]

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I find it somewhat interesting how so many of the webpages simply seem to say "get immediate medical attention". When you start reading in further, they generally seem to think you should get to a hospital within an hour at the most. I've got to wonder just how often this is possible. I do an awful lot of dayhikes, where getting a person extracted would take at least 6 to 8 hours if everything went right, and there was a helicopter in the area. If you're looking to get the individual out via horseback, quad, or stretcher, a full 24 hours or more isn't all that uncommon. For backpacking trips, 48 hours to get help isn't unheard of. My personal thought is I'll have the capabilitiy to do what I can myself, trust to others secondary. The process may speed up a little when the emergency satellite locator becaons are available, we can only hope.

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Yah from what I'm reading, the best aid is the fastest to the hospital, but there were caveats that not all cases will be treated with antivenin as this will be the doctor's call. Sometimes, they will let the poison just work through you and watch the symptoms.

 

Antivenin is produced by repeatedly injecting horses with rattlesnake venom, gradually building up their immunity. Rattlesnake antivenin is concentrated immune serum from horses. Receiving antivenin can make you hypersensitive to this "cure" and cause serious medical issues the next time you receive it or any other cure derived from horses... including death.

 

Apparently 80% of all snakebites will be dry, so panic needs to be controlled and medical attention sought as quickly as possible, if for nothing else, a tetanous shot and some antibiotics.

 

From A Discussion of Traditional Snake Bite Treatment by Bayou Bob, circa, 1997:

 

Very simply put, it is a central part of a highly developed food acquisition system. The hemotoxic snake has venom within its special glands to promote a stunning of prey, a predigestive function to trigger a softening and desolving effect upon meat tissue, and in certain species aids as a tracking feature to assist at final location of mortally wounded victims. In short, this chemical material is an awesomely destructive complex compound targeted at some very serious chores dedicated toward the snake's survival. It will cause major problems when introduced to the fluids of warm blooded animals. This can be a mouse food item or a lower human leg, the venom does not appreciate the difference. It sets about to do its duty with little respect toward the nature or comfort of the victim. It can be very bad and very painful to go through what we are describing while fully feeling and aware of the occurrences. A serious snake bite is an ugly thing to watch as it takes its course.

 

He goes on to say these effects can take hours or even days.

 

It is important to remember this was written in 1997 so some of the treatments he discusses here includes are now considered dangerous or ineffective, BUT, there is some very good information here to read about snakebites.

 

The more I dig, the more I learn.

 

Cheers!

TL

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As an emergency physician, how quickly do the patients need to get to you? While I would imagine I could get to a doctor within a couple hours if bit on the hiking trails near my home, I can easily imagine it taking a minimum of 12 to 24 hours in some parts of the state and that's if they can do a helicopter extraction.

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quote:
Originally posted by great dane:

I'm an emergency physican.

 

The best snake bite kit out there is a pair of car keys and a cell phone.

 

Save your money...don't get a kit.


I would have to agree. Most states have even taken snakebite kits out of ambulances. Also, please keep in mind that while you look at the time required to get to the hospital there is also the time required to get Antivenin. In most areas it is not stocked at community hospitals and has to be transported (or the patient transfered) to a facility that houses it. I do a good bit of field work and remote area EMS and have NEVER carried a snake bite kit. We move in and rapidly transport. Even if that requires a helicopter hoist operation.

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