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Logging The Stinky Ones.


sbell111
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In the DPM thread, Markwell wisely asked how one should tactfully let a cache owner know that his cache was a lamer.

 

It has been suggested that a simple TNLN might not get the message across.

 

I'll start it off. In the other thread, I suggested posting something like:

 

'Why did you bring me here?'

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In the DPM thread, Markwell wisely asked how one should tactfully let a cache owner know that his cache was a lamer.

I'm much more interested in letting fellow cachers know what the cache is like. If the neighbors came to check me out, or the cache is in a trashy area, or if I felt really conspicuous...well, that's what I log. If that's not off-putting to someone else, at least they know what they're getting. No need to be rude about it; it's merely descriptive.

 

There've only been a couple of cache placements that made me angry, and I was too new to kick up a fuss (and too stupid to drive away).

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BlueDeuce posted in the other thread:

 

I just simply state the 'difficulties' with the cache, like looking in a location that makes local citizens suspicious, or that I almost cut myself on broken glass searching through trash. I don't give my personal opinion concerning whether or not I liked it. I've found caches that I've hated, but then others praise it. Who's right? If it just isn't interesting to find, I keep it short and simple. "Found it".

 

Of course if the cache is outside of guidelines I go straight to an approver and let them deal with it.

 

On the receiving end, I would take the criticism in stride and if there were several 'bad' reports I would seriously consider my placement. I wouldn't delete a poster just because he was a jerk. Additional logs by finders will usually show if it's a bad cache or if that one cacher is just persnickety. Jumping all over one poster really reflects on how well the hider can take criticism. Valid or not.

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Let me go second .... Why do you bring me here .... to this lame topic?

 

Nice isn't? 

 

Cheers

Andrew

Hi Andrew

 

Why do you think this topic is lame? Don't you think posts should be honest?

 

Cheers

Steve

 

<_<

Hi Steve

 

I was illustrating how from my perspective such a log as you suggest could be considered rude and possibly hurtful.

 

As I see it, what I consider to a less than ideal cache, someone else might like, and furthermore, unless there is a specific problem, e.g., private land, why is necessary to criticise someone's else's efforts JUST becuase the finder don't like the cache?

 

More so, how hard is it to be nice? If a finder really must let the owner know their issues with a cache, why can't they be constructive and suggest an improvement or it is just too easy to bag someone?

 

Also why does this negativity have to be in the cache log? Surly some maturity can be shown and the issues discussed directly with the cache owner?

 

Just becuase it is the finder's view, don't make it right.

 

Regards

Andrew

 

Edited to make the tone gender neutral

Edited by Aushiker
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As I see it, what I consider to a less than ideal cache, someone else might like, and furthermore, unless there is a specific problem, e.g., private land, why is necessary to criticise someone's else's efforts JUST becuase the finder don't like the cache?

It's not necessarily my view. It was suggested that our habit of always thanking for the cache, even if we thought it was lame, was hurting the hobby.

 

Thanks for your input.

Edited by sbell111
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In the DPM thread, Markwell wisely asked how one should tactfully let a cache owner know that his cache was a lamer.

I'm much more interested in letting fellow cachers know what the cache is like. If the neighbors came to check me out, or the cache is in a trashy area, or if I felt really conspicuous...well, that's what I log. If that's not off-putting to someone else, at least they know what they're getting. No need to be rude about it; it's merely descriptive.

Hi

 

I would consider this approach constructive and helpful to both myself as a cache owner and finder ....

 

Regards

Andrew

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It's not necessarily my view. It was suggested that our habit of always thanking for the cache, even if we thought it was lame, was hurting the hobby.

Hi Steve

 

Sure, then I would suggest giving some CONSTRUCTIVE feedback. I would personally have found your opening suggestion in one of my cache logs a bit off, if not rude. I would get far more value from some genuine constructive suggestions either in the log or sideband.

 

Regards

Andrew

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I just say "Found it, thanks". Though I'm happy to see others who are totally honest in their logs, I can't bring myself to do the same.

Me neither but I always try and say something nice and give it more than just a couple words, not sure why though.

 

People are going to place lame caches no matter what and I have no ambition to try and change those people by leaving negative comments on their cache pages.

 

What I make it a point to do is place quality caches and hope that someone will feel the same and want to place a quality cache when it's their time.

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I usually can find something positive to say-

 

"thanks for getting me out of the house"

"the dog really enjoyed getting an extra walk"

"everyone appreciated the nearby McDonald's"

etc.

 

Or something gently critical-

 

"it's too bad there's so much trash in this area"

"there are a lot of people around who might easily spot this one"

"sure, there's no view or hike, but there is a McDonald's nearby"

 

Not saying "great cache, more like these please" but having something positive/constructive to say. I very rarely run into a "lame-in-my-mind" cache, but if the owner thought the area needed the cache it's not my place to tell them otherwise.

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BlueDeuce posted in the other thread:

 

I just simply state the 'difficulties' with the cache, like looking in a location that makes local citizens suspicious, or that I almost cut myself on broken glass searching through trash. I don't give my personal opinion concerning whether or not I liked it. I've found caches that I've hated, but then others praise it. Who's right? If it just isn't interesting to find, I keep it short and simple. "Found it".

 

Of course if the cache is outside of guidelines I go straight to an approver and let them deal with it.

 

On the receiving end, I would take the criticism in stride and if there were several 'bad' reports I would seriously consider my placement. I wouldn't delete a poster just because he was a jerk. Additional logs by finders will usually show if it's a bad cache or if that one cacher is just persnickety. Jumping all over one poster really reflects on how well the hider can take criticism. Valid or not.

Steal my thunder why don't you!

 

I was just going to say:

 

Posted, thanks.

 

<_<

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Or something gently critical-

 

"it's too bad there's so much trash in this area"

"there are a lot of people around who might easily spot this one"

"sure, there's no view or hike, but there is a McDonald's nearby"

Ah, that's more towards listing the facts and less an editorial. A much better approach.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I think by posting "nice" logs to crappy caches we are doing both the hider and our fellow cachers a disservice. If you blow smoke up the hider's donkey, especially a newbie; how will they ever know it's not a good hide?

At the last event I went to, several people were complaining about one new cacher's hides. Tonight someone else commented to me on several of them. the coords on one are over 150ft off, and several others are over 60ft. I went to look at the logs and mostly the logs were very nice. I gotta admit I was blown away! I haven't done these caches, but they sounded quite nice from the logs. It was hard to reconcile the online logs to the private comments about this cache being 150ft off, and don't attempt that cache without a handgun.

This whole attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is BS. If the cache isn't nice, SAY IT. If you were turned off by the gladware under a pile of trash, SAY SO. Part of the reason so many people hide lame caches is because nobody tells them how lame they really are.

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I think by posting "nice" logs to crappy caches we are doing both the hider and our fellow cachers a disservice. If you blow smoke up the hider's donkey, especially a newbie; how will they ever know it's not a good hide?

At the last event I went to, several people were complaining about one new cacher's hides. Tonight someone else commented to me on several of them. the coords on one are over 150ft off, and several others are over 60ft. I went to look at the logs and mostly the logs were very nice. I gotta admit I was blown away! I haven't done these caches, but they sounded quite nice from the logs. It was hard to reconcile the online logs to the private comments about this cache being 150ft off, and don't attempt that cache without a handgun.

This whole attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is BS. If the cache isn't nice, SAY IT. If you were turned off by the gladware under a pile of trash, SAY SO. Part of the reason so many people hide lame caches is because nobody tells them how lame they really are.

Another good reason why DPM doesn't cover it.

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This whole attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is BS. If the cache isn't nice, SAY IT.

Bah, you can do just that without being rude. I stated in another thread to be polite on the cache page but email the cache placer if there are issues. No reason to be rude on a cache page.

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This whole attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is BS. If the cache isn't nice, SAY IT.

Bah, you can do just that without being rude. I stated in another thread to be polite on the cache page but email the cache placer if there are issues. No reason to be rude on a cache page.

The mantra in here is "if you don't like it, don't do it."

Well, if your online log says:

<_<February 30 by UMC (3,321 found)

Nice easy cache, didn't even get my dress shoes dirty. TNLNSL, Thanks for bringing me to a place I wouldn't normally go!

 

And then you email the hider:

Subject:    [GEO] UMC contacting you from geocaching.com

 

Hi, I did your "Dumpsters across America #532" cache today.

I drove right up to the dumper, but I had to use my mace to chase away a rabid rat. I'm not really 100% sure I found the right cache; I did find a chewed up film canister with some welt pulp inside, I guess that's the cache? I included a pic of the dumpster to prove I was in the right place. Ya know, I happened to notice there was a really nice park right around the corner from this Walmart.

 

How are your fellow cachers supposed to know not to do it?

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This whole attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is BS. If the cache isn't nice, SAY IT.

Bah, you can do just that without being rude. I stated in another thread to be polite on the cache page but email the cache placer if there are issues. No reason to be rude on a cache page.

The mantra in here is "if you don't like it, don't do it."

Well, if your online log says:

<_<February 30 by UMC (3,321 found)

Nice easy cache, didn't even get my dress shoes dirty. TNLNSL, Thanks for bringing me to a place I wouldn't normally go!

 

And then you email the hider:

Subject:    [GEO] UMC contacting you from geocaching.com

 

Hi, I did your "Dumpsters across America #532" cache today.

I drove right up to the dumper, but I had to use my mace to chase away a rabid rat. I'm not really 100% sure I found the right cache; I did find a chewed up film canister with some welt pulp inside, I guess that's the cache? I included a pic of the dumpster to prove I was in the right place. Ya know, I happened to notice there was a really nice park right around the corner from this Walmart.

 

How are your fellow cachers supposed to know not to do it?

LoL, I like both my log and email. <_<

 

I don't let others logs dictate whether I should do a cache or not. Well maybe that's not true. There was a cache here recently that had 'rude' logs on the page saying that it should be archived and was a poor cache (to say the least) Anyway, it was because of those logs that I made it a point to see for myself, so those logs drove me to the cache, not away from it.

 

Just because your idea of a cache in a dumpster or landfill is bad, it doesn't necessarily mean I would feel the same way, I can make those judgements on my own.

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In the other thread I said:

 

I would suggest that instead of putting DPM in a log when the cache owner likely won't know what it means, that the log honestly but politely state why the finder disliked the cache. That would be more useful to a cache owner than a mysterious "DPM." I suspect it would also have a greater chance at making the cache owner re-consider his or her cache in light of the log.

 

With that said, I don't think I have ever criticized a cache in a log for being "lame." I have pointed out maintenance issues and such and once even ranted some (both on the forums and in the log) about an absent owner and begging for adoption of a cache that had special meaning to me (thanks to Tahosa for adopting it!).

 

I suppose part of that is that I just am not the type to complain. I tend to be pretty laid back about such things. But it also is because even when I thought a cache was "lame" I had fun. I will admit that sometimes the fun was laughing at the "lameness" of the cache, but wow.... That was amusing in and of itself, and unless it needs maintenance that the owner needs to know about I figure who am I to judge? I usually can tell from something on the cache page about what to expect and if I don't feel like doing yet another lightpole, which is pretty much the norm for me after finding hundreds of them in 24 hours (a way that made that really fun), I just skip it. If I'm driving by and decide to log it, I know what to expect and who am I to criticize when I chose to log it? I often save the so called "lame" caches for snow or night caching etc as a way to increase or help assure the "fun factor." Or if I happen to be at a wal-mart and see there is a cache, well I figure I might as well log it and don't sweat that there was no adventure to it since I was there anyway for other reasons. Frankly, after some shopping experiences that left even upbeat me stressed, I might welcome the diversion of lifting a lightpole cover and signing a log! On the rare occasion where I was surprised by "lameness," well as I said, I tend to still find something fun about it.

 

But I guess that is just me. I figure it is what you make of it. You can find it and be unhappy or you can find it and find something fun about it. I prefer the later.

Edited by carleenp
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I just had another thought (I shouldn't think so much) <_< I also have a view that if a person becomes known as a "complainer" their complaints loose meaning over time. That is certainly true for me anyway. I just start ignoring the constant "complainers." So they can get labeld as such and people stop listening. But when a person generally is upbeat and such, then on the rare occasion that they have a serious complaint and state it, they are taken more seriously (this is true for how I view others at least). How does this affect this topic? Well, if a person goes around all the time leaving complaint logs, the locals could start brushing them off as a "complainer" and perhaps not take them as seriously. But if a person who rarely complains suddenly politely (or even unpolitely) points out a problem, they might get more attention. I like to carefully choose my battles. It both makes me happier and I think gets better results if I do complain.

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This cache is an example about how people handled this issue in our area.  Read the logs.

 

Fried

I think that is an excellent example. It was truthful but constructive and polite. Did the cacher move the cache?

You know, it's a kinda funny situation. We think that the hider is a teenager. None of us have ever met him. We tried to be constructive in helping him, such as inviting him to an event cache where we would be discussing cache placement, etc. He never responded.

 

I don't think he ever replaced the cache, though he has several others that aren't too bad. Haven't seen him lately.

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Here are some of my recent cache logs.

 

What will cachers hide next, micros in cholla cactus?

I found this out after pricking my fingers 20 plus time on the thornbush .

 

I have two questions:

 

Why a thornbush?

Why hide a cache 10 feet from a restaurant?

 

Another log.

 

I found it in the rain after a minute of checking the usual spots.

I give the location a "D" grade though. I don't understand the logic of placing geocaches near homes so the owners who don't know our game, wander what we're doing.

 

Different cache, same hider:

 

Well I'll give the cache a "B" for creativity, but a "D" for location. I hate to look for caches near everyone's houses. I'm glad I haven't been confronted by suspicious homeowners yet.

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As this sport grows, I imagine it can not, and will not ever be as the creators envisioned it to be, when it was created.

 

But it will go on, with or without complaints, and individual takes on how it should be played.

 

I agree the more that is read, either here in the forums, or other online related sites is very helpful in keeping the game even, but it's hard to get some cacher's to even read the cache page.

 

So the sport will continue to grow, and with it each persons take on how it is played.

There is no fix.

Live, and play with it.

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Yeah, I'm new to geocaching. New cachers have something that old timers don't. We have a fresh and excited outlook on a new hobby. With that said, why do you have to say anything about a "lame" cache? I tell my 5 year old that sometimes we find good treasure and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we don't find anything. But you know what? Every cache I have been to has given me time with my kids. Someday they will be too cool or too busy to hang out with me. That's ok because it's part of growing up. But right now I am their hero. Even in a parking lot while we are looking for a "lame" micro. Every second counts my friends. One day I'll have hundreds of finds and I might be upset with lame caches, but right now I am new and still have a fresh outlook. Any cache that gets me and my kids out together is cool by me.

 

That's my $0.02 worth and I want my change.

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Yeah, I'm new to geocaching. New cachers have something that old timers don't. We have a fresh and excited outlook on a new hobby. With that said, why do you have to say anything about a "lame" cache? I tell my 5 year old that sometimes we find good treasure and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we don't find anything. But you know what? Every cache I have been to has given me time with my kids. Someday they will be too cool or too busy to hang out with me. That's ok because it's part of growing up. But right now I am their hero. Even in a parking lot while we are looking for a "lame" micro. Every second counts my friends. One day I'll have hundreds of finds and I might be upset with lame caches, but right now I am new and still have a fresh outlook. Any cache that gets me and my kids out together is cool by me.

 

That's my $0.02 worth and I want my change.

 

Right On! You hit the nail on the head!

 

Let the players play, and critics criticize!

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Yeah, I'm new to geocaching.  New cachers have something that old timers  don't.  We have a fresh and excited outlook on a new hobby.  With that said, why do you have to say anything about a "lame" cache?  I tell my 5 year old that sometimes we find good treasure and sometimes we don't.  Sometimes we don't find anything.  But you know what?  Every cache I have been to has  given me time with my kids.  Someday they will be too cool or too busy to hang out with me.  That's ok because it's part of growing up.  But right now I am their hero.  Even in a parking lot while we are looking for a "lame" micro.  Every second counts my friends.  One day I'll have hundreds of finds and I might be upset with lame caches, but right now I am new and still have a fresh outlook.  Any cache that gets me and my kids out together is cool by me.

 

That's my $0.02 worth and I want my change.

thumbsup.gif

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I don't think we need to be looking for a list of cookie cutter sentences to place in our cache logs, but rather we should each use our creativity to figure out how to include our total caching experience in the story we post. I don't even type well (and I hate to) but I still try to find the words and time to post a meaningful log that can get to the point, and not be rude or degrading.

In some of the examples above the logs seem so harsh that the placer of the cache has probably registered a new name out of embarrassment, or quit completely out of discouragement. In either case we should not be proud of ourselves.

Personally, I've found great reward in trying to come up with creative and well written logs, and this has gotten me back into the habit of writing on an almost daily basis. I'm not trying to claim that I've never written a bad or lame log (and I know some of you will came up with examples, so this is my disclaimer) but I think we should all try in our own way, as it is part of the game and adds to everyones experience.

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Is this when we start discussing how someone should have X number of finds before they're allowed to place a cache?

 

I'm not too sure if there should be any rule about this, but when I've met or introduced new players I usually recommend that they find 100 before hiding any. That way they can get a good sense of what has worked and what hasn't.

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One of my most recent post for a parking lot cache:

 

I was meeting Polgara near here to find some real caches and she drug me over to this one. Ahhhhh, your classic parking lot cache. We tried to look like employees so people wouldn't wonder what we were doing there. Thank goodness Polgara found it in about 2 seconds, maybe the security cameras didn't notice us much. We both hiked the 3 steps back to our car while we left our marks. I was impressed that there was a pencil to write with. That was nice! Then we had to wait another 20 minutes until employees stopped coming and going before Polgara could returned it. Boy did we get some stupid looks.

It was a relief to be finally heading out of there and back toward the hills and coal mines. Thanks for the reminder of why I hate caches like this.

 

Salvelinus

 

This was nothing but a "get your cache numbers up" cache in a parking lot so my log was just a note. I tried to leave subtle hints as to what I thought about it without being rude. It did have a pencil in it so I did find something nice to say! BTW...my log is probably the longest one out of the 42 logged visits since December 1st.

 

What I found most enlightening is that there is a great cache about 5 miles down the road that has had 3 finders (Me, Polgara and her dog) in that same time period.

 

Salvelinus

Edited by Salvelinus
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if you think the cache was so LAME you want to lamblast the hider then POST a note and do NOT claim a find. Kind of like passive resistance, or are the numbers all you care about???????

The DPM thread is a perfect example of why that is not a solution.

Edited by sbell111
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BTW...my log is probably the longest one out of the 42 logged visits since December 1st.

 

What I found most enlightening is that there is a great cache about 5 miles down the road that has had 3 finders (Me, Polgara and her dog) in that same time period. 

 

Salvelinus

Hhhmmm... :(

 

I guess this proves that everybody likes to shop there? ;)

Edited by Ambrosia
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Enspyer, I like your approach. It seems to me, one of the perks for hiding a cache would be to collect the logs, all having glowing comments to the wonder of your creativity. Collecting your log and finding it full of nothing but pages and pages of TNLNSL would definitly give someone a clue as to their possible lameness without all the insulting.

Edited by j9cache
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I would suggest that you never "diss" another cacher's cache unless you're prepared to offer to help them improve it. Simply stating "your cache stinks" but in polite terms and doing nothing to assist in improving that situation is doing nothing really. Words without action are meaningless.

 

If you can't think of a way to improve the specific cache beyond moving it somewhere else, leave it be. Obviously the person has placed the cache as well as it can be placed in that particular location if noone can think of a way to improve it besides moving it.

 

And if you can't think of a better way to place that particular cache in that general area - who are you to say it stinks? To correct this requires actions, not words or 4 letter log entries (TNLN).

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I try to be honest without being rude . . . but sometimes I just can't help it.

 

Sometimes the truth hurts . . . but I'd rather know the truth about my caches than be blissfully ignorant. I would like to think that others feel the same way.

 

That and . . .

 

Happy caching and stuff! :)

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Instead of focusing on what you should log for so called "lame" caches you should really focus on writting nice log entries for good caches. You can always tell the quality of a cache by the length of the logs written... or at least you should be able to. Honestly if your log for a lame micro is "TNLN" and your log for a great cache is "Nice area. TNLN" then it is not providing a lot of feedback for the hider or to other finders. Keeping a positive outlook and writing good things about good caches and great things about great caches is what will make people want to hide better caches... writing negative comments and critisism will just tend to make people angry. Just my 2 cents

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