Caches in Tactical Security Areas

February 19, 2005

Hey guys, I'm still a newbie to this but I think I have a valid concern. I am in the military, and whilst overseas and looking at caches in the country I was working in a thought occured to me. Now I know people are excited about this sport and all, but I am concerned about the responsability of putting caches online in Tactically Secure Compounds, say for instance Iraq. Now I know that some are virtual, but I am questioning the responsability of placeing caches in foreign occupied compounds and having said coordinates on the web. I have lived in these places and I wouldnt want to go giving help to anyone trying to do me and my buddies harm, game or not. Just a thought..........please let me know if Im just being paranoid or if this might be a valid point......Thanks

:huh:

21.9k · February 19, 2005

Hi,

I split this question out from the FAQ topic since it's not an FAQ... it hasn't been discussed too much! I think more people will notice and comment on your question by giving it a separate topic. So, what does everyone think?

February 19, 2005

I agree 100% with your concern. Although it may be interesting to have a cache in a foreign area, safety is ALWAYS a chgief concern, especially in tactical areas. And, its not like you're free to roam the country all willy nilly on your limited time off. Perhaps, if there are cachers overseas (which there are, obviously), you can use a secure site, like AKO or something. Posting coordinates online on as public forum is hazardous, and, in fact, could probably lead to a court martial. Good topic though.

February 19, 2005

if it would make you feel safer then i'm all for not posting coords in tactically sensitive areas, but don't you think that any large base is already well known by the locals? -harry

3.8k · February 19, 2005

I haven't seen this discussed. I hope that the approvers will consider this and decide to limit listings in those sites if there is any concern at all for the security of people stationed there [donning flamesuit for suggesting a new "rule"]

The Geocachers' Creed says

Don’t place a cache near schools or government buildings unless the administration and staff are fully aware of the placement.

Don’t place a cache near critical infrastructure that might be considered a terrorist target, or create a cache that could be mistaken for a terrorist device (e.g. a pipe bomb).

But it really doesnt address the issue you mention, and of course, it is only a guideline, not a rule.

February 19, 2005

I'm with Harry on this one... any location of groups of foreign nationals, i.e., U.S. Troops, are already well known, and putting some coordinates on the web won't make any difference.

February 19, 2005

I don't know how much of a concern this really is.

I know there are caches in Iraq, but those that I have seen have been placed by active service members. It isn't like I am going to go to Iraq and expect to seek the cache. I think it is more for cachers in the theater.

As far as giving away locations, I would *hope* that the folks placing caches are placing them in locations that are already publicly known, not some secret installation somewhere.

Something I do think would be cool, but it would likely involve breaking one of the rules regarding burying caches would be for folks in Iraq or Afghanistan today to bury some ammo cans with items related to the war. Some of the propaganda leaflets that got dropped before the bombing started, perhaps an MRE hot sauce bottle, maybe a unit insignia, things of this nature. Just bury them out in the sand in the middle of nowhere and post the coords in the future, after the conflict is over and things are more stable and tourism has resumed. Perhaps even bury them right in the middle of a temporary base and post the coords long after the base is no more.

24.7k · February 19, 2005

In Idaho the No Tresspassing sights and Guards with M-16's patrolling do a good job of keeping caches out of restricted areas. I don't think the INEEL and what you are talking about are the same though.

February 19, 2005

I'm with Harry on this one... any location of groups of foreign nationals, i.e., U.S. Troops, are already well known, and putting some coordinates on the web won't make any difference.

Not to be rude, but I'm guessing that you have not been awaken in the middle of the night to Mortar Fire.

Yes I had thought of this since its no real secret. At the same time if I was searching the web and I searched, for instance Iraq, I could find a bunch of compounds without even having to be physically there, or knowing anyone there, or the area at all.

Common knowledge when your a local is one thing, being able to find something from across the globe is another!!!!!!!!!!!

I do, however, like the Idea of placing caches that will bear some longevity for the future, and not endanger anyone's loved ones.

February 19, 2005

I am being deployed to Iraq next month and would love the oppurtunity to find a couple of Caches while I am over there. Right now the only safe place to do it is inside our own compounds. The issue of coordinates to locations inside our compounds isn't that big of a deal as the insurgents know we are there anyways. They lack the weaponry to accurately target a specific coordinate anyways. The person placing a cache would still have to use a lot of discretion. I would only place one in the open and away from anything of any tactical importance (HQs, billets, electronic systems, communication systems, landing zones, motor pools).

The only real problem with these caches is that they break the rules for cache placement by only allowing members with access to these areas to participate. Allied forces are permitted in our compounds so it is not entirely exclusive but you must still be in the armed forces or a civilian authorized contractor. So the question I pose is should Geocaching.com allow such exclusive caches to be placed at all or should they overlook thier own rules as a gesture of support for Armed Forces serving abroad?

1.2k · February 19, 2005

>Not to be rude, but I'm guessing that you have not been awaken in the middle of the

>night to Mortar Fire.

I didn't read that as rude at all; it was not intended to be so. Rather, I read it as a way to assign to the poster a degree of authority on the topic that the others do not have. A variation on "If you're not [fill in the blank] you wouldn't understand."

Although many of us *would* understand, it is still does not illuminate the discussion of how GC placement might or might not affect compound security.

>Yes I had thought of this since its no real secret. At the same time if I was searching

> the web and I searched, for instance Iraq, I could find a bunch of compounds without

> even having to be physically there, or knowing anyone there, or the area at all.

Compounds != geocaches, although one might argue that caches placed by foreigners might be near their compounds.

Caches placed by locals (or foreigners for that matter) could be anywhere.

>Common knowledge when your a local is one thing, being able to find something from

>across the globe is another!!!!!!!!!!!

Being able to find something from across the globe is one of the cornerstones of modernity and "progress".

>I do, however, like the Idea of placing caches that will bear some longevity for the

> future, and not endanger anyone's loved ones.

I disagree with the idea that the placement of a cache and publishing the .loc would endanger anyone but the placer or seeker (assuming the cache description didn't contain stuff like "cache located in Compound Bravo"). Even the GC ban on tactical locations probably has more to do with avoiding LEO suspicion and bad press than endangering the location itself.

fm,

who is no stranger to compounds, and who wouldn't want to go caching in an area famous for IEDs anyway.

February 20, 2005

This is a very bad idea! go do it.Then ask your commander if he would like to go on a find after the location was posted for anyone to read.

Also a Gps reciever can be connected to a bomb.Locations hey why not a mess tent. You can leave me out on this one.

21.9k · February 20, 2005

I am being deployed to Iraq next month and would love the oppurtunity to find a couple of Caches while I am over there. Right now the only safe place to do it is inside our own compounds. The issue of coordinates to locations inside our compounds isn't that big of a deal as the insurgents know we are there anyways. They lack the weaponry to accurately target a specific coordinate anyways. The person placing a cache would still have to use a lot of discretion. I would only place one in the open and away from anything of any tactical importance (HQs, billets, electronic systems, communication systems, landing zones, motor pools).

The only real problem with these caches is that they break the rules for cache placement by only allowing members with access to these areas to participate. Allied forces are permitted in our compounds so it is not entirely exclusive but you must still be in the armed forces or a civilian authorized contractor. So the question I pose is should Geocaching.com allow such exclusive caches to be placed at all or should they overlook thier own rules as a gesture of support for Armed Forces serving abroad?

I think that this post sums up the logic used in listing caches of the type described in the original post. The caches are scrutinized pretty carefully before being listed. If anyone has a specific concern about a particular area, however, I encourage them to ask a question.

May I take the opportunity to say to each and every armed service member who reads this thread, THANK YOU for your service, and I wish you safe and happy caching during your deployment.

February 20, 2005

I am being deployed to Iraq next month and would love the oppurtunity to find a couple of Caches while I am over there. Right now the only safe place to do it is inside our own compounds. The issue of coordinates to locations inside our compounds isn't that big of a deal as the insurgents know we are there anyways. They lack the weaponry to accurately target a specific coordinate anyways. The person placing a cache would still have to use a lot of discretion. I would only place one in the open and away from anything of any tactical importance (HQs, billets, electronic systems, communication systems, landing zones, motor pools).

The only real problem with these caches is that they break the rules for cache placement by only allowing members with access to these areas to participate. Allied forces are permitted in our compounds so it is not entirely exclusive but you must still be in the armed forces or a civilian authorized contractor. So the question I pose is should Geocaching.com allow such exclusive caches to be placed at all or should they overlook thier own rules as a gesture of support for Armed Forces serving abroad?

????? But they posses the smarts and means to hijack commercial airliners and fly them into the tallest buildings in the United States. Believe me when I tell you that these terrorist not only have but know how to USE this equipment. I just recently returned from an Eight month stay in Afghanistan, and they not only posses but know how to use mortars and other fun things that fly long distances and make loud explosions and big holes when they land. As for the original issue, I’m on the fence on this one, yes with posted coordinates they would have a target, but on the other side like others have said it’s no secret we are there. Just my 2 cents.

February 20, 2005

Hey guys, I'm still a newbie to this but I think I have a valid concern. I am in the military, and whilst overseas and looking at caches in the country I was working in a thought occured to me. Now I know people are excited about this sport and all, but I am concerned about the responsability of putting caches online in Tactically Secure Compounds, say for instance Iraq. Now I know that some are virtual, but I am questioning the responsability of placeing caches in foreign occupied compounds and having said coordinates on the web. I have lived in these places and I wouldnt want to go giving help to anyone trying to do me and my buddies harm, game or not. Just a thought..........please let me know if Im just being paranoid or if this might be a valid point......Thanks

Something tells me you should ask this question to your commanding officer instead.

February 20, 2005

"Not to be rude, but I'm guessing that you have not been awaken in the middle of the night to Mortar Fire."

You guessed wrong. But I didn't take it as rude, just took it as you don't know me. "No harm, no foul" as they say. :laughing:

February 20, 2005

My caching buddy is stationed in South Korea right now. After bugging him over and over, he finally got around to sending me his new "home" coords. so I could see how far he was from me. This is the email he sent back, in jest of course (he did send th coords, after all). Thought it would fit here...

"North Korea would love to own this tidbit.

These are the coords. of the Headquarters of Division Artillery (right next to my home) for the xx Infantry Division, xx Army.

This is right in front of the flag that the whole post salutes everyday: N xx xx.xxx E xxx xx.xxx

"Yep, if I was NK, that's exactly where I would land the bombs. You'd take out the whole command of "the most deady ground force on the Korean pennisula."

Happy?"

February 20, 2005

don't do it.

38.2k · February 20, 2005

I'd say the guys (and women) on the ground in Iraq and other hot areas know best whether or not its appropriate and safe to place these and these are the people who are placing these caches. Its not like Keystone Approver happend through the area and thought it was a great spot for a cache.

I don't think any of them would do something that would remotely jeopardize the security of the installation, their own life and that of their fellow soldiers.

The way I look at it, if its OK with them, its fine by me and should be with the rest of us.

February 20, 2005

i am sorry but i have been in this business for a long time, and a tactical secure area,is not a place to be playing games, especially if it involves hunting thru the area for a cache. all it takes is one mistake. there are so many variables involved with securing an area and keeping it that way, that if you want to keep it tight, you have to limit movement. just my opinion and i am used to not having the popular one so flame on. safety first.

3.8k · February 20, 2005

So the question I pose is should Geocaching.com allow such exclusive caches to be placed at all or should they overlook thier own rules as a gesture of support for Armed Forces serving abroad?

That sounds about right. And thank you for your service. Please check in from time to time if you have access.

:laughing:

February 20, 2005

This is an interesting discussion. It's actually one that I had while over there. I know that caches were and are placed in camps. My NCOIC and I talked about placing one in our camp. We didn't due to the fact we could come up with a place that would be safe. Safe for the cache, not the personnel. Everyone already knew where the camp was and is. However, a container filled with unidentified items laying around where terrorists were attaching just didn't work. We had visions of it being blown up by the bomb squad! Placing outside the camp had other issues---terrorist putting real explosives in it. So, I guess if you can put a cache in, more power to you. I hope I won't be back to look for it.

Terri

February 23, 2005

I was asking to just throw out the "what if" to see what you guys thought. Personally I think I wont be giving out my location or those of my peers, just like my address home.........dont want to post that on the internet either!!!!!!!

March 10, 2005

Insurgents in Iraq right now are using targets of opportunity.

Taliban leftovers are lucky to have a wind up radio, much less a GPS.

They do not need coordinates to locations of American forces.

They are in the bazaars right outside the gate at Kandahar.

They are along the road from the Green Zone to BIAP.

Sorry, but geocaching sites aren't really necessary to them.

They use IED's and RPG's, not precision guided bombs.

That's just not the reality.

Not that I don't appreciate the concern, but realism, not hysteria, is important.

That being said, I do agree about some of the other locations, like the ROK.

BTW, if you want INTEL, it's all over the Internet.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...dad-usa-map.htm

20.7k · March 10, 2005

Not to be rude, but I'm guessing that you have not been awaken in the middle of the night to Mortar Fire....

That has got to be one of the funniest comments I've read on these forums. The hobby is loaded pretty heavily with active and former members of the armed forces. I suspect that many of us know what this is like.

Back on topic...

I agree with BS and Jamatech. This is a decision to be made by the commanding officer, not GC.com. The fact that I can pull up the location of a cache in Iraq does not aid the baddies in driving a truck full of boom into a camp.

March 10, 2005

Just to add my two cents, I think a little paranoia can go a long way. We worry about a cache in a camp in Iraq, but noone thinks twice about the Pepsi truck pulling up to the gate to make a delivery. I personally think it is poor judgement to place caches in an environment like that (the bomb squad comment is a case in point), but there are far more important things to worry about than "is the enemy going to use this against us?".

March 10, 2005

Not to be rude, but I'm guessing that you have not been awaken in the middle of the night to Mortar Fire.

Have been awakened by both mortar and rocket fire. This leads me to believe if coordinates were posted for a position 3 feet from my bunk, it would not make a difference, since they were trying to hit that spot to begin with.

In fact, I can think of a couple of locations of caches in FOBs, such as burn pits, out-of-the-way corners, etc, that I'd prefer to have posted. Might as well let 'em shoot (assuming coordinates would be of any great assistance to firing mortars or rockets from the back of a pickup truck) at these types of places instead of a sleeping area, eh?

8.9k · March 10, 2005

...other than the fact that when the person is no longer in the country, it becomes Geo-litter...

I'm not saying where you are is a vacation, but doesn't this apply?

20.7k · March 10, 2005

If I'm stationed somewhere for six months or a year and I know that at the Boss' decision, it will be longer, how can it be covered by the 'vacation' policy?

March 10, 2005

...other than the fact that when the person is no longer in the country, it becomes Geo-litter...

I'm not saying where you are is a vacation, but doesn't this apply?

<shrug>

Someone can adopt the cache or remove and archive it prior to redeployment. No different than any other cache in less hostile regions.

Then again, in my case, redeployment wouldn't necessarily be moving away from the cache. There a year, home a year, there a year.

I'd be able to take better care of my caches in Iraq than here in Texas. :blink:

24.7k · March 10, 2005

If I'm stationed somewhere for six months or a year and I know that at the Boss' decision, it will be longer, how can it be covered by the 'vacation' policy?

Somehwere there is the rule of how long a cache needs to exist to not be temporary. If the vacation is longer than that time, they can just pull the cache or adopt it out before they leave and it should be a non issue. I recall 4 months but I'm not positive.

Caches in Tactical Security Areas

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