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Gc Software Page Question


Team Shibby

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I was just going over the sites new look and I noticed that on the Geocaching Software page it does not list Cachemate. I do see that most of the links are for freeware/shareware except for GSAK which is a demo until you pay for it.

 

Cachemate has really simplified paperless caching for myself and many others I'm sure. I do realize that cachemate is not free, but neither is GSAK. Both are excellent programs that deserve recogniton on the software page and both compliment a premium membership very well. Any chance it can be added?

 

Kar

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GSAK was originally free but it was changed to crippleware. We're currently reviewing whether it should remain on that page.

Is it really crippleware? Thought it just nagged you (or do you qualify nags as crippleware?)... Dunno, as I've had my copy registered since before these changes were made.

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I think the page at the web site describing software is a disservice to the users if it is not complete and factual. Nowhere does the page suggest that it is only showing software that you can use for free. It would be easy to include in parentheses the cost/donation associated with a product.

 

And if "crippleware" means that you only get the full package if you pay full price, then GC itself (especially as it relates to this page) is crippleware because the only way you can get PQs is if you pay. So what's with the double-standard?

 

Jeremy, you need to realize that these products support you and the whole geocaching endeavor. They are very good to you. You would do well to return the favor.

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And if "crippleware" means that you only get the full package if you pay full price, then GC itself (especially as it relates to this page) is crippleware because the only way you can get PQs is if you pay. So what's with the double-standard?

There's a big difference between GC.com and software that allows full functionality for X days and then stops working.

 

The basic geocaching game is free and has always been free: search for a cache using basic search tools and maps, go find the cache, log your find online, and maybe hide a cache one day. If GC.com were "crippleware" you would lose something like the ability to log finds online after a month.

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GSAK remains fully functional, you only get nag screens.

"Screens" is the word. I currently (and maybe I got a bad install) get a nag screen if I do anything...

 

Load it, nag

Add file, nag

export file, nag

 

It's a lot of nagging. I'm really thinking of not using it any longer.

 

I never really used it other than to make .mps files.

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That's the problem. It went from donationware to crippleware. I don't exactly know when this happened.

 

Never heard of CLB before. Honestly the page needs some updating.

Jeremy you're way of base. GSAK is not a donation to your site. You should be thankful because of GSAK for all the people who pay GC.com . When it first was published I suggested to the author he make a deal with you considering all the people who have and will pay you because of his "donation". This seems to be a pattern. You also expected early cachers to "donate" money to support your site even though it was a commercial site. Don't you know how to say "thanks"?

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...You also expected early cachers to "donate" money to support your site even though it was a commercial site. Don't you know how to say "thanks"?

Prior to memberships, the site did have a donation button, and a number of people did contribute. However, there was no loss of function (or nag screens) for those people who did not contribute. This is the difference.

 

Oh, and I do know how to say thanks. Thank you Jeremy for this great site that allows me to play a fun game. Go buy yourself something pretty. :)

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I expected nothing with a donation button. And when I received few donations I wasn't disappointed.

 

For consistency on the software listing I show all free software, donationware being within a threshold I could accept. If GSAK came out with a GSAK lite with no requirements to upgrade (like EasyGPS) I would accept that, and it would fit within the geocaching.com site philosophy.

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I think the page at the web site describing software is a disservice to the users if it is not complete and factual. Nowhere does the page suggest that it is only showing software that you can use for free. It would be easy to include in parentheses the cost/donation associated with a product.

You're right. That page needs a real update. I'll make sure that folks understand that all the apps are free or donationware when I remove GSAK from the list.

 

And if "crippleware" means that you only get the full package if you pay full price, then GC itself (especially as it relates to this page) is crippleware because the only way you can get PQs is if you pay. So what's with the double-standard?

 

It fits better within the EasyGPS and ExpertGPS model. You'll notice I do not mention ExpertGPS on the page for that reason. There is a lite version and a Premium Version of Geocaching.com..

 

Jeremy, you need to realize that these products support you and the whole geocaching endeavor. They are very good to you. You would do well to return the favor.

 

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the lecture.

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The basic geocaching game is free and has always been free: search for a cache using basic search tools and maps, go find the cache, log your find online, and maybe hide a cache one day. If GC.com were "crippleware" you would lose something like the ability to log finds online after a month.

Actually geocaching.com did go to crippleware, but it was not intended. For the longest time, the map scrolling features were only supposed to be available for premium members, but they were available to everybody. When somebody pointed it out and the problem was fixed, a lot of people got upset because a feature that previously worked no longer did (yes, it was never supposed to though!)

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And if "crippleware" means that you only get the full package if you pay full price, then GC itself (especially as it relates to this page) is crippleware because the only way you can get PQs is if you pay. So what's with the double-standard?

By the way, crippleware does not mean that at all, and it is somehow ironic that a poster with over 1,000 cache finds under their belt would even comment on this topic. You seem to be using the site fine without the premium benefits.

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Instead of removing the software package links altogether, why not create another section on the links page that begins with a disclaimer of some sort stating that the following software packages are available for a cost from the respective publisher and not endorsed by geocaching.com but are listed for informational purposes only. Then simply list the name of the package and publisher but do not hyperlink the text. Then, if curious users of gc.com desire they can google to the software they would like to know more about.

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I'd hate for GSAK to be removed though. I think it's the best program out there, and probably encourages many people to buy premium memberships because of what it can do with pocket queries.

 

I don't blame Clyde for charging, and I happily paid when I decided I was going to get a lot of use out if.

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Groundspeak is a business......

 

It only makes good business sense to put links to any software that encourages the use of premium membership. Both GSAK and Cachemate plus others either encourage or require the use of gc.com's premium membership. I think the back scratching thing comes into play here.

 

Unless premium membership is a very small part of Groundspeak's income, wouldn't it be wise to do the things that will encourage primium membership.

 

What will have been compromised by putting links to non-free software sites? What will be gained or lost by doing either? I can't think of a loss by listing non-free software sites, but I can sure think a lot of gains by listing them.

 

Just by $.02 worth.

 

Byron

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I know a bunch of folks that were premium that now use GSAK and a bunch that I got to use GSAK that then became premium because of what they wanted to do that LOC files didn't provide, so I think both benefit, though GC.com more, assuming they sign up for subsequent years. AFAIK, GSAK is a one time charge.

 

I don't see any reason to remove a software link to GSAK. It's not crippleware - it's the full blown package. After more then moderate use, the program prompts to register on certain actions. The program still allows every function to work, even after the individual continues to use the program.

 

I'd actual prefer Cachemate be added to the list on the Software page then anything that's still active be removed. That's how I see the best solution to this issue and the best solution for all cachers and the geocaching community.

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GSAK. After more then moderate use, the program prompts to register on certain actions.

As I said above, it's crippled for me at this point. It's got a nag screen at least double the length of anything I've used. And we must have different definations of moderate use. For me, anything I do with it causes the nag to show up.

 

I don't care about the functions other than getting the extra info into my GPS. I think that now Mapsource and other programs will do what limited use I needed it for and I will also replace it.

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Eeeks!! I didn't mean to open a can of worms, I just wanted to make a suggestion. However, since these two pieces of software can only be utilized if you are a premium member, I can't see how it would hurt to list them both on the page. (with a disclaimer if need be :anibad: )

 

odragon, if all you need is to make mps files, you should try EasyMps.

 

Kar :surprise:

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Eeeks!! I didn't mean to open a can of worms, I just wanted to make a suggestion. However, since these two pieces of software can only be utilized if you are a premium member, I can't see how it would hurt to list them both on the page. (with a disclaimer if need be :anibad: )

 

odragon, if all you need is to make mps files, you should try EasyMps.

 

Kar :surprise:

Thanks Kar, I'll try that.

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Jeremy, perhaps a simple solution would be to have a button on the software to link to "Payware". Not a big button, just in an inconspicuous spot on the software page. People would still have access but would have to work a little to get there and they would not happen on that page by accident.

 

It would be available, just out of the way of the freeware.

 

John

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I think the page at the web site describing software is a disservice to the users if it is not complete and factual. Nowhere does the page suggest that it is only showing software that you can use for free. It would be easy to include in parentheses the cost/donation associated with a product.

 

Even just a small icon - "$" next to a product.

 

I wouldn't be a premium member if it wasn't for GSAK, and I wouldn't have known GSAK existed except for the links here.

 

List the $$ software as well - just make it clear thats' what it is if your policies require that. If it fits better in the site ethos - ask the makers for a small fee for listing here. I don't expect any of them make big $$, but they may be able to accept a small fee. Possibly cross promotion would negate such a fee.

 

Catchya

 

Sam

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Just wondering why you are removing GSAK, yet iSilo and a host of other shareware/donateware software remains, you can only download a trial version, or purchase it, your page makes no mention of this fact.

<br>The ideal thing would to have two software pages, freeware and non-freeware!!

Edited by orac7000
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Like many others, I suspect, I didn't know or care whether the software listed here was freeware, shareware or commercial. The main point was that I assumed that they had all passed some sort of peer review and were considered useful programs by the community.

 

GSAK was listed because so many people had stumbled across it and loved it, it became a service to the rest to bring it to their attention.

 

I paid for GSAK the day ClydE announced that he was changing the status of it, because I'm happy to support good software and services. Same reason I became a Premium member very soon after taking up geocaching.

 

Please don't deny new cachers the chance to discover such useful and well-supported software that so enhances the caching experience, just because the author wants to get a reward for his considerable investment in time and energy!

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It seems to me that unless GC is going to develop its own software, it will be shooting itself in the foot by removing these software titles from its links page. The programmers of each of these packages have spent considerable time and money creating them - with geocaching in mind. If you take the links away, you may take away their 'bread and butter' which can be closely related to doing the same with your own. Shooting yourself in the foot just because your not making a quid out of it is not a good idea. Put GSAK, Cachemate and all of the others up there, and advertise them freely for newcomers to the game - or they may just feel that it's to much of a bother. Then you lose. :surprise:

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GSAK. After more then moderate use, the program prompts to register on certain actions.

As I said above, it's crippled for me at this point. It's got a nag screen at least double the length of anything I've used. And we must have different definations of moderate use. For me, anything I do with it causes the nag to show up.

Moderate use is length of time and number of uses. You've obviously been using the program long enough and often enough to consider yourself at least a frequent user of the program.

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Watcher, Spinner, Plucker and GPS Babel are all free. While many find GSAK more elegant, the freeware/donationware solution certainly hasn't held me back during the 800+ finds that it's helped me with.

I don't think this is a discussion on whether a combination of all the free alternatives is better or worse then a pay alternative. This is about listing software programs that I and others find useful and beneficial to other geocachers, both new and experienced.

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I for one bought my premium membership so that I could fully utilize GSAK. It definately was not for the access to "members only" caches, there are maybe 2 in my area.

I would imagine more people have purchased the "premium membership" because they are using GSAK. IMHO, it's quite a diservice to take the link to that program off the site, it's also probably going to cost GC more $$ down the road in lost revenue than it costs to have it on the site.

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Watcher, Spinner, Plucker and GPS Babel are all free.  While many find GSAK more elegant, the freeware/donationware solution certainly hasn't held me back during the 800+ finds that it's helped me with.

I don't think this is a discussion on whether a combination of all the free alternatives is better or worse then a pay alternative. This is about listing software programs that I and others find useful and beneficial to other geocachers, both new and experienced.

The point of my post is that people seem to be speaking in this topic as if GPX files and pocket queries are useless without GSAK. There are other alternatives, including the simplest option of just running PQ's on the "nearest cache page" for sorting and planning. Since I've chosen to support the free/donationware alternative, I am posting to point out that Groundspeak as a business has the right to promote or not promote whatever it wants. They already provide GSAK and CacheMate with a free online support platform.

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GSAK is an incredibly useful piece of software. I would also likely not be a premium member if it was not available.

 

It greatly enchances my geocaching experience, espcially when travelling to different locations.

 

It would be good if there could be two sections on the software page, one for free software, one for software that requires donation (but also encourages premium membership, as cachemate and GSAK do).

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