Annoying Length Limit For Goals Of Tbs

[cezanne]

I find it quite annoying that there is such a tight limit on the number of maximum characters (1000) for describing the goal of a TB.

 

Quite some characters are already used up if one uses html and introduces a few commands that do not translate into text. If one at the same time wishes to offer descriptions of the goal in several languages, real troubles arise. Already with two languages it is not easy to stay within the limit, with three or even four it is almost impossible except the case that one writes just one sentence.

 

Of course, there needs to a be a length limit for the version which is used for automatically creating the text on the tag that can be printed, but it would be nice to be split the area and allow further text after the text which is used for the tag.

 

I feel that the various length restrictions that presently exist at gc.com (length of a log, length of the hint sections, length of the short cache description, length of the description of a TB's goals etc) all constitute a big disadvantage for cachers in non-English speaking countries who would like to offer their texts in more than one language. Those who use only one language have available at least twice as much space as the others which does not seem to be fair to me. Clearly, a short description should not be too long, still it is annoying to have much less space than those cachers who write in just one language.

 

Cezanne

Edited February 15, 2005 by cezanne

[+globalgirl]

Wouldn't it help to simply include a link to THIS page? That would include up to (cacher's choice:) 11 different languages.

[Jeremy]

The intention of the goal is to say something like "Visit Sweden" or "Meet Charlie in Vienna" - The long description is there to broaden the goal. Although I can understand the request the intent is not to create a verbose description in one or many languages. The intent is to make it so we can pull out those goals and put them on other pages without taking a whole lot of space.

[+GrizzlyJohn]

Just as a point of reference Microsoft Word said that post contains 1422 characters with spaces.

 

[cezanne]

Wouldn't it help to simply include a link to THIS page? That would include up to (cacher's choice:) 11 different languages.

No, it would not help. What this site or similar tools generate is garbage, it can only used to have a good laugh.

[cezanne]

The intention of the goal is to say something like "Visit Sweden" or "Meet Charlie in Vienna" - The long description is there to broaden the goal. Although I can understand the request the intent is not to create a verbose description in one or many languages. The intent is to make it so we can pull out those goals and put them on other pages without taking a whole lot of space.

Still it is a fact that the limits you have introduced favour the people who just write in one language. Moreover, some missions need more explanations than just "Visit Sweden".

 

BTW: What is the reason for the 4000 characters limit for logs? (I cannot imagine that you put the logs also on aother page.) I am aware of the fact that it is always possible to post several logs, but it makes things more difficult to follow.

 

Try for example, to fit the typical short description of a cache in three languages within the space provided. You can either make the text so short that the information content tends to zero, or you will end up with troubles.

 

Cezanne

[+Tharagleb]

There are real, valid reasons to keep some things short. Especially the logs, there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of these things on the database. They are queried constantly, in some databases the difference between storing an item under 4000 and over 4000 characters in length requires going to a totally different data type that is much less easy to program around. It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system. Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would be very high in the priorities list. If you have some web space availible somewhere you might want to add a link to the TB page that goes to translations of the goals in different languages. I think this is feasible.

[+BalkanSabranje]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.

Oh, come on. Just don't forget that it's not simply her's, but more or less anyone's need outside the US and UK.

THAT was not hard to foresee, was it?

 

BS/2

[+Divine]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system. Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would be very high in the priorities list.

But it's addressed already anyway.

Seriously, once we move our entire site to the new codebase, it will be easier to switch to alternate languages. It will take a bit more to create a multilingual version though, but I'll keep it on the requirements list in future development projects.

[cezanne]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.  Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would be very high in the priorities list.

But it's addressed already anyway.

Seriously, once we move our entire site to the new codebase, it will be easier to switch to alternate languages. It will take a bit more to create a multilingual version though, but I'll keep it on the requirements list in future development projects.

Not the issue regarding TBs. Moreover, nothing has happened so far regarding multi-language versions of cache pages either (there the problem is not about length restrictions as there do not exist limits on the lenght of the long description). Actually, I do not have any longer serious hopes that the situation will change in that respect.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system. Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would be very high in the priorities list.

It seems that you have no experiences at all with the problems that arise if you have a TB travel around in Europe with such a large number of languages. If you send the TB to some particular countries where English is hardly used, it will be a very bad idea to send your TB without descriptions in the relevant languages. The danger that a TB gets lost, is already high with a decent description. There is no need to increase the probability of loss even further.

 

Cezanne

[+Oakley1975]

I completly understand your situation. I can only imagine that the limits are set so that server space is kept within reason.

 

Maybe the Admin could create a field when your creating the TB page, that states "Other Language Descriptions" and you could select it and enter the other langs. Then there would be a link on the TB page maybe on the top-right with the other "found it" links that could be clicked on to view the other languages. You maybe could also select the default language for the page.

 

I am no web page builder by any means but just an insite to a solution to this matter.

 

Oakley1975

[+Tharagleb]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.

Oh, come on. Just don't forget that it's not simply her's, but more or less anyone's need outside the US and UK.

THAT was not hard to foresee, was it?

 

BS/2

Oh come now. Do you really think that when this site was designed they anticipated the multinational scope that geocaching would take on???

 

I still don't see why people can't use translation services.

[+Divine]

I can only imagine that the limits are set so that server space is kept within reason.

Text does really not take that much space from the server. If the issue was server space, I bet the limits would have been more likely set to uploaded photos instead of simple text.

 

Maybe the Admin could create a field when your creating the TB page, that states "Other Language Descriptions" and you could select it and enter the other langs. Then there would be a link on the TB page maybe on the top-right with the other "found it" links that could be clicked on to view the other languages. You maybe could also select the default language for the page.

This is basically the same idea that was introduced on the thread I linked to in my above post. (Yes, cezanne, it wasn't originally aimed to TBs, nor was it about the length of the text space, but the same solution would work in this matter too.)

[+Divine]

I still don't see why people can't use translation services.

Hehe, I'd like to see you to find e.g. this cache after you've used a 'translation' service on the description:

This Soot chief recess be Vihnusjärven rannoilla reasonably nigh Tampereen borderline. Recess pystyttämisessä apua rich Travesty Bug Bob the Cache Builder , which relieve unfilled Translator geokätköillä. Recess butter near anyway twice separate suunnasta. Lyhyempi road is drift Vihnusvuorelle , and ascend rocky along downwards ashore , where recess is lurk. Piilotin this recess nevertheless march enkä bygone it itinerary , because slush and jäiset precipice cliff näyttivät truly vaarallisilta , so reference winter reiterate itinerary. Vihnusvuoren tienoilla is also station , so it shall naturally orbit. Another alternative affair merely winter , and this recess piilotettiinkin radical tällä tavalla : Kätköpaikkaa butter near answer lake past freezing along. Älä however yritä tätä via if et ole determinate jään kestävyydestä! This alternative dump anyway yhden for terrain vaikeusasteesta. Summer is naturally enable arrive kätköpaikalle also length or kanootilla. Third alternative olisi hunt some extraneous itinerary , which visitor everybody vuodenaikoina , earnest. kulkemalla lake shore along. En however ole toistaiseksi aware tällaisesta reitistä. Recess käyneet ovat löytäneet otherwise tapoja near recess. Lue anterior loggauksia. Pysäköimällä kesäteatterin parkkipaikalle ( coordination N 61° 28.954 INVOLR 023° 32.532) may tehtyä past 4 kilometre lenkin ( return ), if is winter and freezing along butter attribute. Distance is furthermore pitempi , if lake is molten and its land wrapping.

Good luck.

[+BalkanSabranje]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.

Oh, come on. Just don't forget that it's not simply her's, but more or less anyone's need outside the US and UK.

THAT was not hard to foresee, was it?

 

BS/2

Oh come now. Do you really think that when this site was designed they anticipated the multinational scope that geocaching would take on???

 

I still don't see why people can't use translation services.

Geocaching was invented in Finland in the Eighties (ask Divine about it, I just don't find the reference).

 

And as for automatic translation services (real translators are too expensive and too slow): They simply don't work. If you're not able to speak any other language than English, you can still try having something translated into another language and back.

 

Your initial posting, translated into German (one of the language most similar to English and most common as mother tongue within the EU) and retranslated read:

 

There of acres material, valid reasons tons keep some things short. Especially the logs, there acres hundreds OF thousands (if emergency million) OF thesis things on the DATA cousin. They of acres queried constantly, into some databases the difference between storing at item more under 4000 and more over 4000 of character in length of requires going tons of A totally different DATA type that is much less easy tons program around. It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need tons of post office TB goals into multiple LANGUAGES when designing the system. Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would very high into the priorities cunning. If you have some Web space availible somewhere you might want ton of ADDS A left ton the TB PAGE that goes ton translation OF the goals in different LANGUAGES. I think this is feasible.

 

See what we mean?!

 

BS/2

[+BalkanSabranje]

Divine, as always a little faster...

[+The Leprechauns]

I still don't see why people can't use translation services.

Hehe, I'd like to see you to find e.g. this cache after you've used a 'translation' service on the description:

This Soot chief recess be Vihnusjärven rannoilla reasonably nigh Tampereen borderline. Recess pystyttämisessä apua rich Travesty Bug Bob the Cache Builder , which relieve unfilled Translator geokätköillä. Recess butter near anyway twice separate suunnasta. Lyhyempi road is drift Vihnusvuorelle , and ascend rocky along downwards ashore , where recess is lurk. Piilotin this recess nevertheless march enkä bygone it itinerary , because slush and jäiset precipice cliff näyttivät truly vaarallisilta , so reference winter reiterate itinerary. Vihnusvuoren tienoilla is also station , so it shall naturally orbit. Another alternative affair merely winter , and this recess piilotettiinkin radical tällä tavalla : Kätköpaikkaa butter near answer lake past freezing along. Älä however yritä tätä via if et ole determinate jään kestävyydestä! This alternative dump anyway yhden for terrain vaikeusasteesta. Summer is naturally enable arrive kätköpaikalle also length or kanootilla. Third alternative olisi hunt some extraneous itinerary , which visitor everybody vuodenaikoina , earnest. kulkemalla lake shore along. En however ole toistaiseksi aware tällaisesta reitistä. Recess käyneet ovat löytäneet otherwise tapoja near recess. Lue anterior loggauksia. Pysäköimällä kesäteatterin parkkipaikalle ( coordination N 61° 28.954 INVOLR 023° 32.532) may tehtyä past 4 kilometre lenkin ( return ), if is winter and freezing along butter attribute. Distance is furthermore pitempi , if lake is molten and its land wrapping.

Good luck.

Thanks for translating, Divine. Made perfect sense to me. I gather that Finland is a very cold place, unless the lake is molten. Also they have recess there a lot. If that means lots of vacation, I think I wouldn't mind living there and tolerating the risk of being vaporized when I went swimming.

[+Tharagleb]

Double-translation post quote should go here

 

[Edit to remove wrong quote.]

 

A very specific, but bad example. Of course double-translation is going to yield nonsense.

 

Cezanne's TB goal in German:

 

[DE:] Das erste Ziel von Blue Bear ist Marburg/Lahn (Deutschland), um Alice zu besuchen, die mich ins Geocaching Land eingeführt hat. Nach Ankunft in Marburg wird Blue Bear ein neues Ziel erhalten.

 

Blue Bear liebt Blumen und Pflanzen im allgemeinen. Es wäre nett, wenn er auf seinem Weg an sein Ziel Plätze gezeigt bekäme an denen er sich an seinen bevorzugten Objekten erfreuen kann.

In Marburg möchte Blue Bear den botanischen Garten besuchen.

 

Translated by Google to English:

 

[ DE: ] The first goal of Blue Bear is Marburg/Lahn (Germany), in order to visit Alice, which introduced me to the Geocaching country. After arrival in Marburg Blue Bear will receive a new goal.

 

Blue Bear loves flowers and plants generally. It would be nice, if it got on its way to its goal places shown at which it about its preferential objects enjoy can. In Marburg Blue Bear would like to visit the botanischen garden.

 

 

Cezanne's English version of the goal:

 

[EN:] The first goal of Blue Bear is to travel to Marburg/Lahn (Germany) to pay a visit to Alice who introduced me to the "geocaching land". Once he arrived there, his goal will be updated.

 

Blue Bear is fond of flowers and plants in general. It would be nice if you could show him places on his way where he can enjoy his favourite objects.

In Marburg Blue Bear wants to visit the botanical garden.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Tharagleb

[+Tharagleb]

I quoted the wrong example, I wanted to quote the one where my post was double translated...

[+Tharagleb]

Google says "botanical" in german is botanisch.

[+Divine]

A very specific, but bad example. Of course double-translation is going to yield nonsense.

That is not a double translation. It was a perfectly good example of an online service translation straight from Finnish to English.

 

Edit: Noticed you quoted the wrong post. Anyway, you still don't see why people can't use translation services?

Edited February 16, 2005 by Divine

[+Tharagleb]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.

Oh, come on. Just don't forget that it's not simply her's, but more or less anyone's need outside the US and UK.

THAT was not hard to foresee, was it?

 

BS/2

Oh come now. Do you really think that when this site was designed they anticipated the multinational scope that geocaching would take on???

 

I still don't see why people can't use translation services.

Geocaching was invented in Finland in the Eighties (ask Divine about it, I just don't find the reference).

 

And as for automatic translation services (real translators are too expensive and too slow): They simply don't work. If you're not able to speak any other language than English, you can still try having something translated into another language and back.

 

Your initial posting, translated into German (one of the language most similar to English and most common as mother tongue within the EU) and retranslated read:

 

There of acres material, valid reasons tons keep some things short. Especially the logs, there acres hundreds OF thousands (if emergency million) OF thesis things on the DATA cousin. They of acres queried constantly, into some databases the difference between storing at item more under 4000 and more over 4000 of character in length of requires going tons of A totally different DATA type that is much less easy tons program around. It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need tons of post office TB goals into multiple LANGUAGES when designing the system. Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would very high into the priorities cunning. If you have some Web space availible somewhere you might want ton of ADDS A left ton the TB PAGE that goes ton translation OF the goals in different LANGUAGES. I think this is feasible.

 

See what we mean?!

 

BS/2

This is the one I meant, my post is double-translated at the end.

[+Tharagleb]

A very specific, but bad example. Of course double-translation is going to yield nonsense.

That is not a double translation. It was a perfectly good example of an online service translation straight from Finnish to English.

 

Edit: Noticed you quoted the wrong post. Anyway, you still don't see why people can't use translation services?

I think that the translation Google did of Cezanne's TB goal is more than adequate. Did you read my post?

[+Divine]

I think that the translation Google did of Cezanne's TB goal is more than adequate. Did you read my post?

Yes, I did. Somehow I just think that cezanne didn't mean only her single TB when she decided to bring this problem to attention. You, on the other hand, tell you don't see why people can't use translation services. I brought an exemplary translation made according your recommendation. Did you read it? Would you like to find a TB with a goal description of similar kind?

[+Tharagleb]

I think that the translation Google did of Cezanne's TB goal is more than adequate. Did you read my post?

Yes, I did. Somehow I just think that cezanne didn't mean only her single TB when she decided to bring this problem to attention. You, on the other hand, tell you don't see why people can't use translation services. I brought an exemplary translation made according your recommendation. Did you read it? Would you like to find a TB with a goal description of similar kind?

First, you quoted a cache description not a TB description. I couldn't find a Finnish to English translator to try it out on. (Since it is in Finland I am assuming the page is in Finnish.)

 

I am not so stupid that I don't get your point. I am sure having to deal with multiple languages is a problem.

 

My points are these:

 

1) Translations services can be used. In particular on Cezanne's TB.

 

2) Computer systems cannot do everything people want them to.

 

3) Get a little creative and try to solve problems on your own.

 

4) Maybe you don't have to put such long descriptions of your TB.

 

Another idea is to write, on paper, several translations and photograph these and put them on the TB page. With links: English, German, French etc.

[+Tharagleb]

Just as a point of reference Microsoft Word said that post contains 1422 characters with spaces.

 

Might be the problem right there.

[+BalkanSabranje]

1) Translations services can be used. In particular on Cezanne's TB.

Translation services are crap and produce nonsense. There may be some exceptional cases (translation of very simplistic sentences) where the automated translation is close to the intended meaning, but who's to tell where the exception starts/end???

 

3) Get a little creative and try to solve problems on your own.

It's not just her problem. The need for multilanguage support is a commonly expressed desideratum that doesn't have to (and shouldn't) be entirely alien to the international homepage of an international sport...

 

Another idea is to write, on paper, several translations and photograph these and put them on the TB page. With links: English, German, French etc.

What's the major advantage in comparison to different (linked) text fields (not only speaking of website traffic, but also of handicap accessability, PDA-friendlyness and the need for a digital camera etc...)???

 

BS/2

[+Divine]

First, you quoted a cache description not a TB description.  I couldn't find a Finnish to English translator to try it out on. (Since it is in Finland I am assuming the page is in Finnish.)

I linked the Finnish to English translator I used in the post I showed its results. Although, you wouldn't have had to try it on the description, because I quoted the results in the very same post. (On a side note, your advice of using a translation service doesn't help much if you can't find any.)

 

I don't know exactly what was the problem with me quoting a cache description and not a TB description, since the problem with the advice stays the same: online translation services produce mainly gibberish. But since you seem to want a translation service example of a TB description, here's one:

This travelbugi desirous point , what suomalainen go import. Bugin shall endure kätköissä Helsingin Espoon , Burly or Kauniaisten territorial. Bugi desirous tick merely kätköissä , whose and terrain that vaikeustaso ovat asteikolla 1-3. * While otat bugin recess , your hotly reset it anywhere district recess eight daytime pending. Et may takeaway diagram bugista or suffix / exclude bugin along attributing tavaroita. First said ohjeiden seuraaminen claim go. If go depth being aware thee älä however unveil its darkness tällä aside. If syrup bugia kirjaathan syrup express also hither.

Hope you can do what the TB goal requires.

 

1) Translations services can be used. In particular on Cezanne's TB.

What Balkansabranje said.

 

2) Computer systems cannot do everything people want them to.

Is this really an insuperable obstacle?

 

3) Get a little creative and try to solve problems on your own.

Let's see. I've learned (at least tried to) three languages in addition of my native one. I've added an English description on my every cache and TB description for those who can't read Finnish. I've tried to compress my text. Do you really think that asking for these kind of feature enhancements is out of line?

 

4) Maybe you don't have to put such long descriptions of your TB.

But if I have to?

 

Another idea is to write, on paper, several translations and photograph these and put them on the TB page. With links: English, German, French etc.

What Balkansabranje said. Additionally, would that really be better solution, server-wise?

[+The Leprechauns]

{snip}

I don't know exactly what was the problem with me quoting a cache description and not a TB description, since the problem with the advice stays the same: online translation services produce mainly gibberish. But since you seem to want a translation service example of a TB description, here's one:

This travelbugi desirous point , what suomalainen go import. Bugin shall endure kätköissä Helsingin Espoon , Burly or Kauniaisten territorial. Bugi desirous tick merely kätköissä , {snip}

Hope you can do what the TB goal requires.

{snip}

Ticks are everywhere this year. I see travelbugi after travelbugi mentioning them.

 

Thanks, Divine, for the translation.

[+Tharagleb]

You have beat me into submission.

 

TPTB: Please fix this annoying feature right away.

[+fly46]

It is doubtful that anyone could foresee your need to post TB goals in multiple languages when designing the system.  Even if they did, it is unlikely that this need would be very high in the priorities list.

It seems that you have no experiences at all with the problems that arise if you have a TB travel around in Europe with such a large number of languages. If you send the TB to some particular countries where English is hardly used, it will be a very bad idea to send your TB without descriptions in the relevant languages. The danger that a TB gets lost, is already high with a decent description. There is no need to increase the probability of loss even further.

 

Cezanne

So you're saying you have a need to post your TB's info in 57 different languages in the off chance that the travel bug might leave Spain and go to Portugal, France, Germany or Italy?

 

This is an english based site. I'll bet a set of tb tags that at least 95% of the people that use this site have some ablility to understand what this site says in english.

[+Divine]

So you're saying you have a need to post your TB's info in 57 different languages in the off chance that the travel bug might leave Spain and go to Portugal, France, Germany or Italy?

I didn't see anyone wishing specifically for that, but if you allow multiple languages, what difference does it make how many languages you use? Out of curiosity, do you have something against a longer text length limit or a multilinguality support? If so, why?

 

This is an english based site.  I'll bet a set of tb tags that at least 95% of the people that use this site have some ablility to understand what this site says in english.

So let's ban other languages while we're at it, right? This English based site uses awfully lot of words like global, international and worldwide for a site that you bet that at least 95% of the people that use it have some ability to understand what it says in English.

[+BalkanSabranje]

While we're at it, why not also ban all those evil foreign words used by the US posters here, like the french effort, the german angst and the latin separate...

 

BS/2

[+fly46]

So you're saying you have a need to post your TB's info in 57 different languages in the off chance that the travel bug might leave Spain and go to Portugal, France, Germany or Italy?

I didn't see anyone wishing specifically for that, but if you allow multiple languages, what difference does it make how many languages you use? Out of curiosity, do you have something against a longer text length limit or a multilinguality support? If so, why?

 

This is an english based site.  I'll bet a set of tb tags that at least 95% of the people that use this site have some ablility to understand what this site says in english.

So let's ban other languages while we're at it, right? This English based site uses awfully lot of words like global, international and worldwide for a site that you bet that at least 95% of the people that use it have some ability to understand what it says in English.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

The original poster implied that the purpose for this was because people didn't understand what the page said if it was written in english.

 

However, my point was that if they're using this site, they obviously have understanding of the english language, since that is the only language this site is in.

[+BalkanSabranje]

However, my point was that if they're using this site, they obviously have understanding of the english language, since that is the only language this site is in.

Most of the older cachers around here have a lot of time for caching and little or no english language skills. They have someone else set up the account for them and show them the basic functions. After that, they can (and have to) rely on their primary/seondary/whatever language skills apart from english.

That's also why alternate language pages were developped.

Have a look at those:

http://www.geocaching.hu

http://www.geocaching.cz

 

BS/2

[+Oakley1975]

What is the specific reason behind beating the crap out of suggestions. I really don't see the point behind it.

 

If you know there will be people that speak different languages viewing pages, then there probably should be multi-language support. It does'nt mean that every listing has to be in many different languages, but if the owner wants to post it in a few different languages then they should be able to. I myself probably wouldnt but that doesnt mean that I think it is wrong or unnessisary.

 

If your travel bug made it to a foriegn country and someone posted a note to your page in a language you didnt know, you would soon want multi-language support, or at least I would.

 

I dont know what would be the best way to resolve this issue but I feel it needs to be considered.

[+BalkanSabranje]

If you know there will be people that speak different languages viewing pages, then there probably should be multi-language support. It does'nt mean that every listing has to be in many different languages, but if the owner wants to post it in a few different languages then they should be able to. I myself probably wouldnt but that doesnt mean that I think it is wrong or unnessisary.

What you say.

 

If your travel bug made it to a foriegn country and someone posted a note to your page in a language you didnt know, you would soon want multi-language support, or at least I would.

All our nine state capitals are as close as approx. 30 miles to the next foreign country border; the probability of a TB staying in our country is very little (and equally the chance of a cache being visited just by fellow citizens).

Just as a small example: on my last local event 4th UAGM none of the visitors had travelled more than around 120 miles; still, people came from 5 different countries and had (at least) 4 different languages as their mother tongues...

 

BS/2