Response From Garmin - Re: Mac Support

[JnC]

Fellow Mac Users,

 

Here is the original eMail I sent Garmin followed by their response. I would suggest you send your own eMail demanding native Mac Support to let them know there is a Mac Community who would like their support.

 

<snip>

Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:35 PM

To: mobile@garmin.com

Subject: We Demand a Mac OS X solution

 

Come on already get with the program. There are

millions of Garmin users who are also Apple OS X

users. We demand that you guys support the OS X

community. We need data cables which will plug-in-play

from our GPS units into our Macs via USB. I do not

even think silly Windows-based computers still have

serial ports.

 

Regards,

JD

<snip>

 

Subject:

RE: We Demand a Mac OS X solution

Date:

Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:18:35 -0600

 

Good morning James,

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to

assist you. We are very interested in helping all current and potential GARMIN

customers, but due to resource limitations and protection of

proprietary information, we cannot assist in a Macintosh interface at this time.

 

The Virtual PC solution is the only option we have for our customers

using Macintosh computers. We can not guarantee that this will work and can

not support it's use, however a lot of our customer base has found success

with this. I can offer some links that might prove helpful when using this

type of interface.

 

For cables and attachments, please check out this site:

http://www.gpsy.com/

 

For additional Mac information and software, please check out these

sites:

 

http://www.sni.net/~lwjames/ and http://www.macgpspro.com/GPSPRO.html

For Mac use with MapSource, please check out this site:

http://www.cycoactive.com/gps/gps_vpc.html

 

Thank you for your inquiry and for choosing Garmin. If you need any

other assistance with this, please feel free to call our 800-800-1020 line

during our business hours of 8:00 to 5:00 Central Time, Monday through Friday.

 

Best Regards,

 

Casi Harris

Product Support Specialist

Garmin International

Fax 913-440-5488

Phone 800-800-1020

If replying to this message, please include any previous email

correspondence.Any correspondence not directly related to this email should be sent to

techsupp@garmin.com.

<snip>

[+TotemLake]

Although I agree with your sentiment, I thought I would add an aside to this topic regarding a comment you made about PC's...

 

I do not even think silly Windows-based computers still have serial ports.

 

You have made an incorrect assumption. Some new laptops and some mini-PC's may have foregone the serial and parallel ports merely to save space but for the most part, new PC's still maintain serial and parallel ports. Unlike Apple, there is the (PC) industry wide acknowledgement people still use these.

[JnC]

Although I agree with your sentiment, I thought I would add an aside to this topic regarding a comment you made about PC's...

 

I do not even think silly Windows-based computers still have serial ports.

 

You have made an incorrect assumption. Some new laptops and some mini-PC's may have foregone the serial and parallel ports merely to save space but for the most part, new PC's still maintain serial and parallel ports. Unlike Apple, there is the (PC) industry wide acknowledgement people still use these.

TL,

 

Yes, I was pretty sure this might be the case. But not being a Win-PC user I was not so sure. Thank you for the correction.

 

Regards.

JnC

[+Milbank]

What is a Macintosh?

 

 

 

 

[+MariettaGecko]

I would also tend to note that your original email would not make me want to do anything more than I absolutely had to on your behalf. I would recommend honey, rather than a stick. People are more likely to help you if you're nice to them than if you are "attacking" them.

[JnC]

I would also tend to note that your original email would not make me want to do anything more than I absolutely had to on your behalf. I would recommend honey, rather than a stick. People are more likely to help you if you're nice to them than if you are "attacking" them.

That's odd. I had no intention of "attacking" anyone.

[+Hemlock]

Subject: We Demand a Mac OS X solution

 

Come on already get with the program. ... We demand ...

... silly Windows-based computers

Sure looks like an attack to me

 

I can understand why they blew you off

[+TresOkies]

Subject: We Demand a Mac OS X solution

 

Come on already get with the program. ... We demand ...

... silly Windows-based computers

Sure looks like an attack to me

 

I can understand why they blew you off

I'll second that.

 

As a software developer whose products have been in the hands of hundreds of thousands of consumer users, I can assure you this is not the way to ingratiate yourself. If I read that, I probably wouldn't have even given you the benefit of a reply.

 

I know several of the Garmin developers and they are not the hacker wannabees that perhaps you think they are. They are all firmly established intelligent people who probably didn't get past the first sentence of your email before hitting the delete key. Sorry.

 

This is what is called in the industry "a third party opportunity".

[+pecka]

This is what is called in the industry "a third party opportunity".

I think that if/when a 3rd party comes out with software that can do all the things Macintosh users want it to do - to emaulate Mapsource, Garmin would fire a lawsuit citing DMCA against reverse engineering. Sad story, because if anyone volunteers to write the SW for Garmin, they respond w/ "intelectual property protection". If anyone asks why they can't make it in-house, they respond w/ "lack of resorce" - this from multi-million dollar company. Other than that, I like my GPSMAP60c, but I would LOVE to use it w/ Apple computer.

[+Marky]

The best way to get Garmin to write a Mac soultion is to get Magellan to write one (and visa versa). Loss of market share due to better support from a competitor is about the only thing that will make it worth while for them to dedicate the resources to do this.

 

--Marky

[HIPS-meister]

I'm sure that, to the extent that Garmin can be persuaded to provide technical details about their formats and protocols, this will happen. Not only the Macintosh but also the Linux community would benefit... and would be willing and able to contribute resources. There is quite a lot of "reverse engineering" visible on Sourceforge already.

[+TresOkies]

This is what is called in the industry "a third party opportunity".

I think that if/when a 3rd party comes out with software that can do all the things Macintosh users want it to do - to emaulate Mapsource, Garmin would fire a lawsuit citing DMCA against reverse engineering. Sad story, because if anyone volunteers to write the SW for Garmin, they respond w/ "intelectual property protection". If anyone asks why they can't make it in-house, they respond w/ "lack of resorce" - this from multi-million dollar company. Other than that, I like my GPSMAP60c, but I would LOVE to use it w/ Apple computer.

Actually, I was referring to their partners program, whereby you can get maps for Russia, Chile, and other places that Garmin themselves don't deem worth their interest. A Mac shop might be able to go to Garmin with a business plan that makes sense and actually make some money at it.

[+NightPilot]

"Millions of Garmin GPS owners who are also Mac owners"? I don't think so. Thousands, perhaps, but certainly not tens of thousands. Mac is a niche market, growing smaller every year. Fewer developers are supporting it as time goes by. Apple lost out when it refused to license its OS, and has been losing more, not gaining. One simple marketing decision made the difference.

 

If you want to influence a company, at least present information that is a little bit close to the truth. That and the flip remark about 'silly' Windows computers made you instantly unbelievable. With no credibility, you won't get much response.

 

Edit: Plug-in-play??? If you don't even know the correct terms, you'll have even less credibility.

Edited February 16, 2005 by NightPilot

[+jollybgood]

I for one would LOVE To see Garmin support OSX but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Fortunately VPC7 works well with my 60CS. It may take a while to load maps without USB support but it ALWAYS takes. I let it sit over night and download maps so it's ready when I get up the next morning.

 

The very least Garmin could do is fix the USB drivers on their units so they can talk to VPC.

I'd settle for that much at least.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Come on already get with the program.

 

Thats not a very good way to start an E-Mail.

 

A freind of mine is a Mac user, When he bought a Garmin Street pilot, he just pick up a used PC for about $100.00 to use for loading maps into his GPS.

[robertlipe]

After I reverse engineered the details USB protocol (Garmin's doc is for their windows driver; not the actual USB protocol and when I questioned them about discrepencies of details in an earlier version, they oh-so-helpfully removed the details from the web) and Apple included a workaround for thier horribly noncompliant USB behaviour in 10.3.8, we're starting to get reports of MacGPSBabel success with USB. This doesn't get you Map support, but it'll get you waypoints, tracks, and routes.

 

Right now the GUI won't do it, but that'll be fixed in the next beta within a few weeks.

[YemonYime]

Subject: We Demand a Mac OS X solution

 

Come on already get with the program. ... We demand ...

... silly Windows-based computers

Sure looks like an attack to me

 

I can understand why they blew you off

The manner in which someone writes to a company should be no factor in the company's response. They are a business, and they treat it as such.

 

However, their response does leave me a distinct impression they do not care to support Macintosh anytime soon...so I will look to purchase a different brand.

 

Thanks for posting this...it made my decision easier.

[+TresOkies]

Sure looks like an attack to me

 

I can understand why they blew you off

The manner in which someone writes to a company should be no factor in the company's response. They are a business, and they treat it as such.

 

I'm curious, what color is the sky in your world? Very few individuals would put up with this load of horse apples, so why should a company? Is this the mythical "customer is always right" thing?

 

However, their response does leave me a distinct impression they do not care to support Macintosh anytime soon...so I will look to purchase a different brand. 

 

Until Apple makes a GPS-enabled iPod, you'll be waiting a while...

Edited February 20, 2005 by TresOkies++

[Vlad]

lol have fun with your new gps. what's that? magellan, cobra, lowrance and the others aren't supporting mac at this point?

 

huh.

 

now what?

[gpsdork]

What is a Macintosh?

 

 

 

 

 

Elegant, innovative, and reliable computers that that don't require their users to use software produced by a monopoly. Macintoshes use the operating system OSX which is to date immune to all operating system viruses and worms. (Properly speaking, there is no such thing as a "computer virus", no matter what computer techs may tell you).

 

By way of contrast, another popular operating system has been struck by literally tens of thousands of worms and viruses, and new computers using that OS have been shown to survive an average of only twenty minutes on the Internet before being attacked (unless the OS is immediately upgraded). <http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/262>

 

However, users of that competing OS charge that more people use it than use OSX. Therefore, since popularity is an infallible indicator of quality, their OS must be superior to OS X and non-Macs superior to Macintoshes.

 

By this logic, Hondas are superior to Rolls Royces, disposable cameras to Hasselblads, Oprah to Plato, Survivor to Shakespeare and MacDonalds burgers to caviar.

Edited February 20, 2005 by gpsdork

[CenTexDodger]

I know this has been discussed before, but the can of worms has been opened so...

 

What good is it to have a computer that won't work with 97% of what everyone else has?

 

Put differently, if Rolls Royce built a car that were 12 feet wide, it might still be of higher qualilty than the Honda, but due to the fact that it would be INCOMPATIBLE with the roads, it would not be useful to anyone other than collectors and hobbyists.

 

Shouldn't Mac users and the "Infallible" OSX try to conform to what 97% of society uses rather than try force the world to conform to them?

 

 

I must restate what was already said: What is a Macintosh?

[+TresOkies]

However, users of that competing OS charge that more people use it than use OSX. Therefore, since popularity is an infallible indicator of quality, their OS must be superior to OS X and non-Macs superior to Macintoshes.

 

Poor persecuted Mac user. When will the world finally admit their error and see things your way?

 

I bought my first Mac in 1986. I've gone through a 512K, SE, IIci, PowerBook Duo 210, 7100, 7600, PowerBook G3, and now a charcoal G4. I loved the MacOS. What software I couldn't find, I wrote. Up to and including the compiler. I made it through segmenting, code fragments, 68K/PowerPC jumps, everything. But this BSD mess--it's too much. Mac users wanted protected memory and true multitasking, they didn't want some grab-a** variant of Un*x.

 

My G4 sits in its rack, mostly unused, except for the occasional moment when I need to make sure my code will still cross-compile. Aside from that, it might as well be a boat anchor. Apple used to be about innovation and experimentation, now they're about selling shiny eye candy and music players to techster wannabes and NBA fanboys. Do I want a Mac Mini? No, Apple probably won't get another sale out of me. Eight is enough. I want a Shuttle PC running XP MCE.

 

"Oh, but it's so superior to Microsoft".

 

Microsoft is the company you love to hate. Been there, done that, have all the t-shirts from WWDC (including the one where Guy Kawasaki tells us that it's alright to use MSIE on Mac). I won't waste my breath complimenting Microsoft, but I've wasted enough breath calling them the Evil Empire.

 

Windows 3.x, 95, 98, and Me are the reasons the "switch" campaign worked. They sucked. I've never spent a professional moment on any of these. I have spent a lot of time on NT, 2000, and XP and I'll take any of those over OSx any day. I can give XP machines to my kids and I have the tools and ability to keep their machines running and keep them safe from Internet pests. Can I do that with a Mac? Probably but I don't care to try anymore.

 

XP is not the work of the devil if you spend a couple of hours getting the settings right. No different than with your Mac. The reason all the viruses attack Windows is because that is where it is the most profitable. Yes, there are a lot of stupid people who buy Dell, HP, and Gateway machines and connect them directly to cable modems. Those same people would find ways to screw up a Mac.

 

Macs don't get viruses

 

Google a couple of names like nVir and WDEF. The Mac used to be the breeding ground for viruses in the 80's because there was no, and I mean NO protection against them. OSX may be more secure, but no one really cares--why attack Macs, when only 5 million are sold each year? If MacOS held even 25% of the market share, you can rest assured that we'd be hearing about exploits more often.

 

If you want Mac support for your GPS, download XCode, learn Cocoa, and start at it. You might even sell a few dozen copies when you're done.

 

By this logic, Hondas are superior to Rolls Royces, disposable cameras to Hasselblads, Oprah to Plato, Survivor to Shakespeare and MacDonalds burgers to caviar.

 

OSX is neither a Honda nor a Rolls--it's a chrome plated vintage Beetle.

[+NightPilot]

Oh, but the Mac is from a monopoly. Apple refused to even license its OS to anyone else, and that appears to be what doomed them. IBM licensed DOS to anyone who wanted to build hardware, and that made the difference. Nobody can build an Apple or a Mac but Apple, while anybody at all can build hardware that runs Windows. Thus, everybody and his brother-in-law builds PCs and writes software for Windows, while very few bother to write anything for the Mac. So now, Apple mostly sells mp3 players, not real computers. Quality of the hardware and software makes less difference than the marketing quality, and no matter what anyone says about Bill Gates, he's a marketer nonpareil.

[+JohnnyVegas]

The manner in which someone writes to a company should be no factor in the company's response. They are a business, and they treat it as such.

 

And you should treat them with the respect you would expect to recieve. But maybe you think you are special and should be treated better than anyone else.

 

Why blame Garmin for a problem that Apple created?

 

As Night Pilot stated,

 

Oh, but the Mac is from a monopoly. Apple refused to even license its OS to anyone else, and that appears to be what doomed them.

 

If they will not license their software to anyone else, that is Apples problem, Apple could have been a much larger company, but Apple messed up.

[+briansnat]

Macintoshes use the operating system OSX which is to date immune to all operating system viruses and worms.

 

They aren't immune. Its just that nobody bothers writing them for Macs. That's great, but the corresponding problem is that nobody writes software for them either.

 

My brother in law and father in law are devoted Mac fans going way back. But every time I turn around they are moaning about not being able to use this software, or hook up that device. I asked my father in law why he just didn't get a PC if the Mac gave him so may headaches and he said "no way, Macs are so much better".

[+mrking]

I asked my father in law why he just didn't get a PC if the Mac gave him so may headaches and he said "no way, Macs are so much better".

Been there, done that. Now I have moved on and realized XP is better than the MacOS for me (note that I said for ME) as it can do everything I want it to, where as I was always wanting software for the mac but it did not exist.

 

As for JnC, you should try the butter and sugar approach one day. Even if you don't like to do it, you will be surprised at how much better it works.

 

Demand? geez, like you have the authority.

[+TFTC]

Macintoshes use the operating system OSX which is to date immune to all operating system viruses and worms.

 

They aren't immune.

No, this doesn't look like immunity to me either:

 

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300667

 

[Vlad]

just bumping this up the list to be provocative

 

I'M JUST KIDDING!

Edited February 23, 2005 by Vlad

[+Walts Hunting]

The original poster said he sent an email saying that there are millions of people with Garmin's that have Macintosh's. Given that Mac's comprise about 5 percent of the computer world and Geocachers are a very small subset of the human species and Garmin's an even smaller set I would guess that the number is probably closer to 10.

 

From a developer's standpoing developing an application for Mac's is often not profitable.

 

I would bet that email made the rounds at Garmin and got a few chuckles.

 

When I was running IT for a major police department I was in the middle of the battle for supremecy. I always acknowledged that Mac's had a better operating system but felt that wintel would dominate (an opinion that Peter Norton stated in 1990). I won't go into the three reasons I gave at that time that carried the day.

 

All in all if people want to use Mac's fine but don't complain when noone develops for you I mean after all your office suite is made by Microsoft.

 

Someone a couple of posts ago mentioned that the OS of Mac's was immune to virus and worms. That isn't actually true. The actual case is that noone writes a virus that if it attacked all the Mac's in the world would not have a significant effect and would be barely noticeable in the scope of things.

Edited February 23, 2005 by Walts Hunting

[+JohnnyVegas]

Here’s some software trivia re. Mac.

Most of us are familiar with National Geographic Topo software that is made for PC.

It’s origins go back to a company in San Francisco that at the time was called Wildflower Productions. The first software they offered was Topo San Francisco bay area , this was only made for the Mac OS. We were selling the software (I should saying trying to sell) were I was working at the time, I think we were selling maybe set of the software ever four months. After a very long time Wildflower put out the PC version and then we were selling the software as fast as we could get it. Then they put out the Trails illustrated version for National Geographic which was also very popular. Well some time afterwards National geographic bought Wildflower productions. Now the software is still made in San Francisco. If Wildflower had not switched over to the PC version we would have the fine products they offer now.

There is just not enough of a market to make developing software for the Mac OS very profitable, Apple screwed themselves and all their customers with their selfish business practices of not licensing there OS to other vendors, they tried to keep everything in house and now they are paying the price.

[+Bob Blaylock]

I bought my first Mac in 1986.  I've gone through a 512K, SE, IIci, PowerBook Duo 210, 7100, 7600, PowerBook G3, and now a charcoal G4. I loved the MacOS. What software I couldn't find, I wrote. Up to and including the compiler. I made it through segmenting, code fragments, 68K/PowerPC jumps, everything. But this BSD mess--it's too much. Mac users wanted protected memory and true multitasking, they didn't want some grab-a** variant of Un*x.

  Speak for yourself.  I was terribly disappointed when the NeXT failed to catch on; and delighted to find it reincarnated in the form of MacOS X.  The Unix-based underpinnings are exactly what MacOS needed to bring it up to date.  “Classic” MacOS was great in its time — when the competetion was MS–DOS and WIndows 3.1, but it desperately needed a major revamp to keep up with Windows NT/200/XP, and MacOS X is exactly what it needed to become.

 

I have spent a lot of time on NT, 2000, and XP and I'll take any of those over OSx any day. I can give XP machines to my kids and I have the tools and ability to keep their machines running and keep them safe from Internet pests. Can I do that with a Mac? Probably but I don't care to try anymore.

  I guess that's the point.  With MacOS X, you don't need “…tools and ability to keep their machines running and keep them safe from Internet pests.”  MacOS X simply doesn't have the gaping security holes and vulnerabilities that allow all the sorts of abuses that are happening to Windows systems.