Licensing The Geocachers Creed

[+El Diablo]

I've read though the highlights of the thread, and the question that keeps coming to my mind is why does this have to be licensed, and why put restrictions on where it can be posted?

 

The creed seems to be the creed that cachers have lived by since the very inception of caching. Once again I fail to see why it needs to be licensed.

 

Maybe someone can enlighten me?

 

El Diablo

 

With the impending removal of the non-commercialization clause, there is no restriction on where it can posted, only a requirement that the posting note the source (www.geocreed.info) and that it be posted as written.

 

It has to be licensed to put these two restrictions on it, the rationale for which is discussed in this post, this post, this post, this post, this post, and this post.

 

To summarize briefly, crediting www.geocreed.info gives a source for further information about the nature of the Creed and credit to all who contributed to its development (through links to the original development forums).

 

Posting it "as written" insures that changes are made through a public, collaborative process, not the whim of someone who decides they don't like some commonly accepted geocaching behavior, or someone who feels that new restrictions should be created (in the development forums, people suggested adding a number of tenets and examples - e.g. gun control - that were rejected because they were not commonly accepted geocaching norms). This restriction helps insure that the creed remains "the creed that cachers have lived by since the very inception of caching", rather than one person's opinion.

 

There are no other reasons to license the Creed (i.e. there's no hidden agenda).

Well once again I fail to see the ned to restrict or license it. Then again I'm not the brightest person you will ever meet.

 

My point is that we (Meaning cachers) have lived by this creed long before you came into this hobby/sport/game. We will always live by that creed wether it's official or not. Basically because it's the right thing to do.

 

Understand that I'm not picking on you or your efforts, I just don't understand how you can take ideas that were comprised of public opinion and then put it together to come up with a creed for cachers, and then control it.

 

Once again I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

El Diablo

[+Kai Team]

Ya know, my children and I have only 2 creeds when it comes to geocaching:

 

Cache In, Trash Out

 

and

 

Have fun!

 

Most of the stuff in this creed is just common sense stuff. There's no way to dictate common sense to some people, even if it's written down and available on the web.

 

Shouldn't we just stick to something simple rather than long, drawn-out and controversial?

While you can't dictate common sense to some people, you can make people, especially those new to geocaching, aware of how most people behave. Writing down and distributing the existing norms can shape a person's behavior because it causes them to think about things they might have done without thinking. Most of the things people do that run counter to the norms are thoughtless, not deliberately malicious.

 

The Creed itself is fairly simple. The examples are long, but all of the information is in one place, not scattered over various sites' listing requirements, the forums, etc. It may be long, but it's the easiest place I know to find this kind of guide to generally accepted geocaching behaviors.

 

Ironically, neither the Creed nor the examples have proven controversial - of all the critical or questioning posts since the Creed was finalized in its present form, none have challenged the content.

 

Personally, I don't understand why there is so much controversy over a voluntary set of guidelines that everyone says they agree with. At worst its harmless, at best it will help shape people's behaviors to make caching more fun for everyone and to head off more draconian restrictions from landowners, etc. Seems like a good thing to me...

[+El Diablo]

Personally, I don't understand why there is so much controversy over a voluntary set of guidelines that everyone says they agree with. At worst its harmless, at best it will help shape people's behaviors to make caching more fun for everyone and to head off more draconian restrictions from landowners, etc. Seems like a good thing to me...

Because it's a creed like...thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultry. Those are commandments that are followed by people wether they are religious or not. The reason being because it's common sense.

 

The majority of people follow your creed and will always do so. I think it's great that you have put it in writing to help remind people of the right thing to do, but I don't see the need to license it or control it.

 

I really don't mean to be difficult...I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by controlling this creed.

 

El Diablo

[Jeremy]

If you spent your days publicly agonizing about it, I'd take great pleasure in making fun of you, too. At least until I got cut off.

However you get your kicks, I suppose.

 

I admit I brought up the idea of a Creative Commons license in the beginning, but I agree with El Diablo that it is way too restrictive for something that is pretty much common sense. No offense but I wouldn't list the creed if I was forced to link to another web site.

 

I guess when I considered the Creative Commons license I thought it was going to be something where people were free to do whatever they wanted with it. In all honesty I doubt a ) anyone will make bank on it and b ) anyone will bother abusing it. And Groundspeak needs to be able to change it.

[+AuntieWeasel]

And Groundspeak needs to be able to change it.

How so?

[+El Diablo]

And Groundspeak needs to be able to change it.

How so?

Groundspeak represents 99.9% of cachers. I can see why they would want the ability to modify anything that would reflect upon the sport/hobby/game. Like the creed...it's common sense.

 

El Diablo

[CoyoteRed]

...I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by controlling this creed.

So when someone sees "The Geocachers' Creed" they know it is what has been decided on by those who choose to participate in the creation and modification of it.

[+El Diablo]

...I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by controlling this creed.

So when someone sees "The Geocachers' Creed" they know it is what has been decided on by those who choose to participate in the creation and modification of it.

?

[Jeremy]

And Groundspeak needs to be able to change it.

How so?

Read my previous posts.

 

Theoretically if I were to work with an outside organization to bless it, and as part of that arrangement I am obligated to adjust it so it could be blessed, I could run into a quagmire of political garbage to make these adjustments. In all honesty it would be easier to write something from scratch.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Groundspeak represents 99.9% of cachers.

Represents? That's really not the same thing as "is used by."

 

I can see why they would want the ability to modify anything that would reflect upon the sport/hobby/game. Like the creed...it's common sense.

Unh. I thought you were arguing that the creed was such a simple matter of obvious rules that we've all been following it unconsciously all along. Under what circumstances would anyone need to change common sense? And if the creed lives on its own URL and has its own keepers, what would the creed as altered by Groundspeak be called and where would it live? And would the one nullify the other if nobody is required to sign on to either of them?

 

Theoretically if I were to work with an outside organization to bless it, and as part of that arrangement I am obligated to adjust it so it could be blessed, I could run into a quagmire of political garbage to make these adjustments. In all honesty it would be easier to write something from scratch.

I honestly have no idea what this means.

[Jeremy]

I honestly have no idea what this means.

If you don't then it becomes very difficult to explain why I would have to be able to change it.

[+RJFerret]

It means Jeremy doesn't want to answer to an outside committee or be affected by such in his business.

 

Which is amusing when you take this into light:

 

Groundspeak represents 99.9% of cachers. I can see why they would want the ability to modify anything that would reflect upon the sport/hobby/game. Like the creed...it's common sense.

 

Groundspeak, Inc. doesn't represent ANY cachers--it represents it's owners.

 

Those views are often contrary to the majority...(for better AND worse...)

 

Remember also that these forums are read by a minor fraction of the geocaching populace at large--and only a fraction of those readers ever post!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

[Jeremy]

It means Jeremy doesn't want to answer to an outside committee or be affected by such in his business.

Nice. Somewhat. It means I don't a ) want to be forced to link to a site that may change ownership and have something counter to what Groundspeak represents and b ) forced to run the gauntlet to make changes to a common sense creed, however minor.

 

We could run into the yada yada about Groundspeak as a company needing to do its best to benefit the community so the point is moot about interests of the company or the community, or that there is no real difference between Groundspeak and a non-profit in the ability to move forward with policy, etc. But that would digress from the original point of the topic which is the general licensing of the creed.

 

But thanks for trying to push forward your own personal agenda. It is certainly entertaining.

 

Enjoy,

[+Renegade Knight]

...Cache In, Trash Out...

That got me thinking about about the legal issues with that catchy slogan if another listing site adopts it.

 

It's simple, it's effective and actually quite brilliant. However it's on Geocaching.com who has it's on TOS. Terms conditions, provisios and legal issues attached. Maybe they have given it up for free use by the larger geocaching community and other sites. I'd have to ask to know.

 

From my standpoint it's the same. Either way you have to work with an organization each with their own goals and personalities. If GC.com writes it's own creed and runs it up the flagpole, then it would also have some sort of legal protection attached to it.

 

It's sixes but for one thing. I would trust geocreed info to involve more of the community when the time comes for changes than I would GC.com to do the same. Especially when you consider who is more likely to bridge the gap between the listing sites, and though not many have thought of it yet the future competing state organizations for those states with one horse organizations who won't grow.

 

Summary: You get legal carp either way, it's just who's gonig to do the best job as keeper and maintainer.

Edited February 14, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+El Diablo]

You people are talking about licensening common sense. There has been a creed from day one. There is no need to make an official creed.

 

As a whole for the majority we are well aware of the impact that we have on nature, we also know what we should or should not do. Why do we need a licensed creed?

 

Do you think that we are too stupid or just not responsible enough to cache without having to sign this creed?

 

El Diablo

[Jeremy]

Ah. But there is no such thing as common sense.

[+El Diablo]

Ah. But there is no such thing as common sense.

Yes there is...but some people seem to want to exploit it.

 

Ive never met a cacher that didn't live by the creed that is mentioned in this thread, and I've met a lot.

 

El Diablo

[+El Diablo]

Here is the simple creed we all live by using common sense....

 

We only place caches where there is minimal impact on the inviroment and it's palced with permission when required, and it's lawful.

 

We always respect fellow cachers.

 

Trash out on every cache.

 

Log your find.

 

Represent this sport/hobby/game in the best light.

 

Have fun.

 

Seems simple enough. We have been doing this for years.

 

El Diablo

Edited February 14, 2005 by El Diablo

[+Eric K]

Is this creed really needed or can it just be simplified and made into a a disclaimer like the one that Groundspeak already has?

 

It's been a long time since I've joined so I don't know what it says now when a new member joins.

 

Could the site just have something you have to agree to when you join like the cache pages now have the disclaimers on it?

[+Sputnik 57]

There has been a creed from day one. There is no need to make an official creed.

 

As a whole for the majority we are well aware of the impact that we have on nature, we also know what we should or should not do. Why do we need a licensed creed?

 

Do you think that we are too stupid or just not responsible enough to cache without having to sign this creed?

 

El Diablo

I can just hear Moses saying this. PLEASE don't flame me for the comparison, but Someone thought it was a good idea to write down The Law as ten rules (literally written in stone).

 

The Creed isn't a set of rules. It is an articulation of moral principles applied to a specific activity, namely Geocaching. "It's all common sense" could be said of the ethical rules written down for hikers, campers, skiers, accountants and lawyers. But all of those groups (and a hundred others) have written ethical creeds and codes.

 

I'm glad that you think it reflects common sense. That tells me that the 60 or so cachers that contributed to it did a pretty fair job.

 

If someone wants to post their own creed for cachers, whether they start with this one or not, let them have at it. But if they are going to offer this one up as their own without attribution, or are going to change this one but tell people it is the one developed here, that just seems wrong to me. Hence a license.

 

Just my $.02.

[+wavector]

Our experiences differ.

 

We only place caches where there is minimal impact on the inviroment and it's palced with permission when required, and it's lawful.

 

No managing agency or park ever has a problem. There are no restrictions on cache types and placements. Geocaching is welcomed everywhere.

 

We always respect fellow cachers.

The contents of the cache invariably represent that respect.

 

Trash out on every cache.

"Trash into every cache" - the brochure from the last rest stop, a half empty match book, lint from the pocket, pennies, rocks.

 

Log your find.

Log a smiley, not your find. Become obsessed with your number of finds, actually begin to think it means something. Get upset when people place caches that you cannot retrieve, log a find anyway.

 

Represent this sport/hobby/game in the best light.

Lie to non geocachers, especially if you have been at it for awhile and have plenty of experience. Go read the Muggle Etiquette thread for other ideas on how to best represent the sport.

 

Have fun.

 

One of the reasons that geocaching is fun for many worldwide is the groundwork that makes it work. This activity is going to evolve, it is going to attract a much larger audience and there will be many more restrictions. The creed will have to evolve along with the activity, it may be required. Groundspeak cannot be fettered by a creed which cannot be changed, the creed cannot be changed easily, representing as it does, a distillation of community wisdom.

Any type of licence arrangement has to recognize the unique position that Groundspeak has in regards to geocaching, a prime director. When the rules change, the creed has to change, the rules change when Groundspeak says the rules change or managing agencies adopt new regulations.

I cache in Canada, things may be different where you cache El Diablo, as I said our experiences differ and you have a lot more experience than I do, I am waiting for all that good stuff you mentioned to arrive in my neck of the woods, still, geocaching is mostly good and it is always fun.

 

Oh yeah

[CoyoteRed]

The legal issues aside, for a maintainer of geocaching.com it is difficult for me to adopt a loosely licensed (and vaguely owned) compilation or whatever you want to call it. Theoretically if I were to work with an outside organization to bless it, and as part of that arrangement I am oblgated to adjust it so it could be blessed, I could run into a quagmire of political garbage to make these adjustments. In all honesty it would be easier to write something from scratch.

From the beginning, my intent was for there to be a document that was not site specific and for each site to be able to add to it to suit their needs. Could you point out where the Creed goes counter to policy of gc.com?

[ju66l3r]

You people are talking about licensening common sense. There has been a creed from day one. There is no need to make an official creed.

 

As a whole for the majority we are well aware of the impact that we have on nature, we also know what we should or should not do. Why do we need a licensed creed?

 

Do you think that we are too stupid or just not responsible enough to cache without having to sign this creed?

 

El Diablo

A creed is a statement of beliefs. It's not for the people who work under these assumptions. It's for the rest of the world that doesn't even know what a GPSr is.

 

None of this affects you or me. It isn't something you have to agree to or even like. It's just a statement of beliefs that fits a large percent of the way people believe the game should be played responsibly.

 

Groundspeak could easily put a link in the FAQ or intro saying "to learn more about what the general tenets that people who play this game believe in, click here" and it wouldn't even be a big deal.

 

The license is only serving to make sure that this draw-up of the creed doesn't get manipulated. It's more of a good faith statement about good statements of faith than some sort of handcuffing for the geocaching masses.

 

The creed haters are like the village people in Frankenstein....don't know what it is? It must be evil; kill it.

 

If you don't like it, ignore it. It really has *no* bearing on you what so ever, it's a good face forward to annouce how the average geocacher believes the game should be played responsibly. Maybe you're not the average cacher...great, don't link to this creed. Make your own. Call it the Not-so-average geocacher creed. Put a license on it...peddle it around here so we can all sit back and ask why the not-so-average goecacher needs a creed to define what a not-so-average geocacher believes in...

 

Geezus jumping jiminy on a stick.

[+AuntieWeasel]

The creed haters are like the village people in Frankenstein....don't know what it is?  It must be evil; kill it.

Errr...Frankenstein was evil. Or, at least, he was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disenterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people, however much we suspect there may have been a tiny ember of humanity alive in his breast.

 

Hm. Apt, after all. Fetch me my pitchfork!

[+briansnat]

Ah. But there is no such thing as common sense.

There is an old saying, "Common sense is pretty common".

[+CO Admin]

The creed haters are like the village people in Frankenstein....don't know what it is?  It must be evil; kill it.

Errr...Frankenstein was evil. Or, at least, he was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disenterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people, however much we suspect there may have been a tiny ember of humanity alive in his breast.

 

Hm. Apt, after all. Fetch me my pitchfork!

Frankenstein was the Dr. who created the monster who was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disinterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people.

[+sbell111]

Frankenstein was the Dr. who created the monster who was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disinterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people.

How about 'Dr. Frankenstein was evil because he created the monster who was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disinterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people'?

 

Back to the thread, already in progress...

 

Anybody else notice that a bunch of new people are ignorant because they disagree with the entire 'creed' licensing issue?

[+woof n lulu]

Frankenstein was the Dr. who created the monster who was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disinterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people.

How about 'Dr. Frankenstein was evil because he created the monster who was an unnatural entity stitched-together from the limbs of disinterred corpses and forced into a grim parody of life by a massive electrical charge, who lashed out in his confusion and rage and killed a bunch of people'?

 

Back to the thread, already in progress...

 

Anybody else notice that a bunch of new people are ignorant because they disagree with the entire 'creed' licensing issue?

Well that last sentence is a nice inflamitory statement, and insulting to "new people" to boot.

[+sbell111]

It certainly should not be insulting to new people. I meant that new people (to the thread) are being treated the same as 'old people' to the thread) were treated. I should have put any of these smilies at the end .

 

edit: I really need to start proofing my work better.

Edited February 14, 2005 by sbell111

[+woof n lulu]

IOt certainly chould not be insulting to new people. I meant that new people (to the thread) are being treated the same as 'old people' to the thread) were treated. I should have put any of these smilies at the end .

Anybody else notice that a bunch of new people are thought of as ignorant because they disagree with the entire 'creed' licensing issue?

 

Is this what you meant to say?

[+sbell111]

You captured it perfectly. Do you mind if I email you from now on just before I want to post something? I really need a full-time editor.

[+Kai Team]

The license is only serving to make sure that this draw-up of the creed doesn't get manipulated.  It's more of a good faith statement about good statements of faith than some sort of handcuffing for the geocaching masses.

 

Geezus jumping jiminy on a stick.

And on that note, I'm closing this thread.

 

Thanks again for your comments.