Copyrighted Material

[campneiman]

Just wondering what the rules are concerning placing music cd and movie dvd burns in a cache.

[+briansnat]

If its against the law don't do it and stealing copyrighted material is against the law.

[+sbell111]

Items that violate copyright laws should not be traded.

[dead_white_man]

DO NOT violate copyrights!

[campneiman]

Thank you for the replys. Just never saw it mentioned before..

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Just wondering what the rules are concerning placing music cd and movie dvd burns in a cache.

You are free to give away DVD's and CD's provided they are the originals and you are not keeping "backup" copies for yourself.

[ju66l3r]

Just wondering what the rules are concerning placing music cd and movie dvd burns in a cache.

Place them in caches in the Boston area and send me a PM.

[+stu_and_sarah]

You are free to give away DVD's and CD's provided they are the originals and you are not keeping "backup" copies for yourself.

...and if it's music of your own creation - well, please share! I'd love to find people's own work in caches.

 

But not copies of commercial stuff. Nope.

 

Cheers,

 

Stu

[+BalkanSabranje]

You are free to give away DVD's and CD's provided they are the originals and you are not keeping "backup" copies for yourself.

 

Well, should you plan to do some caches over here: It is legal to make and give away private ("security") copies of your CDs and DVDs for free (it's just forbidden to sell them).

In any other case: hands off!

 

BS/2

[+KolarBear]

I think a nice cd of your favorite songs would be nice.

 

Throw in a little music from Rocky and it'll pump ya up to get just about any cache!

 

As for breaking copyright laws, I wouldn't just because it might tarnish geocaching.

 

-KolarBear

[+chaos reloaded]

I thought it was only illegal if you sold the burned discs?

[+tls11823]

I thought it was only illegal if you sold the burned discs?

Then why did the original Napster go away?

[+chaos reloaded]

I thought it was only illegal if you sold the burned discs?

Then why did the original Napster go away?

good point.

 

doh@me for not thinking. lol

[+Honest John & Suzies Jule]

You can copy and share your recorded music, you just cannot sell any.

 

With Win Mix, as you are downloading songs, your PC is open for people to up load from you. That's sharing, and legal.

Nice with Broadband!

 

[+chaos reloaded]

Now I'm just confused.

[+CO Admin]

lets stay on topic.

 

win mix is NOT the topic.

[+New England n00b]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright. Period.

 

It's one thing to make a back-up copy for yourself (this falls under "fair use", and it is the justification for me turning my CD collection into MP3s), but you can't make a copy for yourself and give away the original (or vice-versa).

 

Doing so eliminates a potential purchase from the publisher/artist/author/studio, and makes it harder for them to turn a profit and continue making new stuff available.

 

Now, having said that, yes the MPAA & RIAA are $ervant$ of $atan, but that doesn't make it right to steal from them.

Edited February 3, 2005 by New England n00b

[+larsl]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright. Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

[ju66l3r]

Doing so eliminates a potential purchase from the publisher/artist/author/studio, and makes it harder for them to turn a profit and continue making new stuff available.

No matter what the industry lawyers feed the media do not believe this line. There is absolutely no proof (and actually proof to the opposite) that sales are diminished and they didn't cancel this season's American Idol because they didn't have the resources to generate the next mass marketed pop sensation.

 

Copyright exists *ONLY* to let the creator (or the people they've sold the rights to) decide what they want to do with their creation. Copyright violation is not even criminal unless it is for your own financial gain or you make available the equivalent of $1000 in retail over 6 months (an amount even most P2P users don't even match...and a provision in the law that didn't occur until 1998 at the behest of the industries).

 

The honus is also on the government to prove that you were willfully trying to break copyright. They really have to go out of their way to determine that you were flaunting the law and not just simple-mindedly sharing your music with your friends in a big circle of CD swapping. If you act out of ignorance, then the courts have almost always held for the defendant in criminal copyright cases. This is the exception rather than the rule to "ignorance is no excuse".

 

In other words, putting a CD of burned music into a geocache may not make you many friends here in the forums or in your local community for fear that it will bring some sort of shadowy connotation to our game...but if you did it, don't expect the government to be banging down your door looking for your CD-RWs. I doubt you'll put $1000 into geocaches in the next 6 months to attract the attention of the government and I doubt you'll even be a blip on the radar of the civil court circuit with all of the much easier to hit P2P file sharing out there for which they've probably sent a subpeona to 0.1% of the total problem.

 

Of course, putting music to which you don't own the copyright and do not have the permission of the copyright owner into a cache is still a "wrong thing to do" regardless of the lax repercussions, so keep that in mind when examining your moral compass.

Edited February 3, 2005 by ju66l3r

[ju66l3r]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright.  Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

I believe he meant "copies of" copyrighted work.

 

In making CDs available for sale from the copyright owner, they create a license of ownership that does not remove the copyright. It's the legal term: "First sale" doctrine. For each copy the owner makes, if they sell it, they can't control its distribution thereafter...only it's duplication (in whole...or enough part that it's a derivative work).

 

So you can sell, destroy, lend, etc. a legally obtained copy of copyrighted material. You can't duplicate it and sell or lend that copy though.

[+sTeamTraen]

You are free to give away DVD's and CD's provided they are the originals and you are not keeping "backup" copies for yourself.

 

Well, should you plan to do some caches over here: It is legal to make and give away private ("security") copies of your CDs and DVDs for free (it's just forbidden to sell them).

In any other case: hands off!

 

BS/2

I rarely disagree with BS/2, but: even if it is legal to make "backup copies" of your CDs (this is not clear in most legal systems), it's completely illegal to give them away, because at that point, they are no longer your backups. I guess it might be legal to give them away at the same time as you give the original CD to the same person, again assuming that making a backup was legal in the first place.

 

Otherwise, as people have pointed out, a sort of "physical Napster" (eg, kids sharing CDs at school) would be legal, which it isn't.

 

Nick

[ju66l3r]

What's going on with this forum topic??

 

I posted a response to New England N00B that had some really useful information on criminal copyright law...but both his post and mine have now mysteriously vanished. You can see that he posted...because he's still quoted in the one post of mine that did stay...

[+New England n00b]

Hrm, and a post by CO Admin disappeared, along with one he was referencing. Perhaps the mods are deleting off topic (or thought to be off topic) comments.

 

Either that, or Signal is playing in the server room again...

[Find Now, Log Later?]

Hrm, and a post by CO Admin disappeared, along with one he was referencing.  Perhaps the mods are deleting off topic (or thought to be off topic) comments.

 

Perhaps you're being "moderated" and don't know it. Mods deleting posts or topics? Why, such a thing could NEVER happen ... as recently as January 18th, someone asked in another forum "how they could delete their old forum postings?" and Jeremy responded thus:

 

Thanks for being nice and wanting to save space on our hard drives, but we'd rather have a full history of discussions instead of erasing them from history.

 

Perhaps I'm the only one who remembers several "controversial" threads from early in the history of geocaching that unfortunately disappeared with the old forums. No doubt "the new software ate 'em."

Edited February 3, 2005 by Bassoon Pilot

[dead_white_man]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright.  Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

I believe he meant "copies of" copyrighted work.

 

In making CDs available for sale from the copyright owner, they create a license of ownership that does not remove the copyright. It's the legal term: "First sale" doctrine. For each copy the owner makes, if they sell it, they can't control its distribution thereafter...only it's duplication (in whole...or enough part that it's a derivative work).

 

So you can sell, destroy, lend, etc. a legally obtained copy of copyrighted material. You can't duplicate it and sell or lend that copy though.

I can't tell you how much my wrath gets stirred every time this subject come up here. I am literally disgusted by the number of people who will rationalize and justify stealing! Speaking from the position of one who derrives his living from creating and distributing intellectual property, I can't believe the dishonesty of people. Make no mistake about it, stealing is stealing and cannot be justified. One who participates is a thief! Thanks ju66l3r for attempting once again to clarify that for people, but I suspect that it falls on deaf ears. Those who steal, will probably continue to steal because they have warped ethics!

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright.  Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

No, but those record stores are selling the original, and not keeping a "backup" for themselves.

 

Let's reiterate the points mentioned by n00b and Ju66l3r:

 

You may sell, trade, or give away the originals

You may have one backup copy, as long as you are still in possession of the original

You may NOT sell, trade, or give away copies

 

Clear?

[+AtoZ]

READ THE TEXT AT THE START OF THE MOVIE. Shes is there any need for this question????? IT IS ILLLEGAL.

[+larsl]

I can't tell you how much my wrath gets stirred every time this subject come up here. I am literally disgusted by the number of people who will rationalize and justify stealing!

1) I was not trying to justify copyright violation, I just thought the wording was strange.

2) Copyright violation is not, legally speaking, stealing.

[+ICHTHYS]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright.  Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

No, but those record stores are selling the original, and not keeping a "backup" for themselves.

These stores also have license to sell them. That's where the whole Without Permission clause comes into effect. Retail stores have permission.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the United States you -cannot- sell or otherwise make available to others (for fee OR free) the copyrighted materials for which you do not personally OWN the copyright.  Period.

That doesn't sound right - record stores, book stores etc don't own the copyright to the material they make available (for a fee).

 

And I don't own the copyright to the material on CDs I've bought - does that mean that I can't sell them or give them away (without keeping a copy)?

No, but those record stores are selling the original, and not keeping a "backup" for themselves.

These stores also have license to sell them. That's where the whole Without Permission clause comes into effect. Retail stores have permission.

I don't have a license, but if I bought 10 albums, I would legally be allowed to resell them at any price I wanted (even free). I am not allowed to keep copies if I sell the originals, nor am I allowed to sell copies and keep the originals.

[+flask]

copyright violation is legally stealing. it's called theft of intellectual property.

 

just for the record, if you find a "flask bootleg" disc in a cache, it is my own work, but the recordings are not intended for public release. when i find illegal copies in caches i take and destroy them.

 

here's a tangential question, though: since i only keep legal copies of music, all my mp3s are legal. (it's true!) at most legal download outlets you can only hear a clip on a download. what i want to know is where i might go to listen to whole songs so i can make a fully informed decision about which versions of works to purchase. i do not wish to patronize pirate sites even forthis purpose. any suggestions?

[+BalkanSabranje]

You are free to give away DVD's and CD's provided they are the originals and you are not keeping "backup" copies for yourself.

 

Well, should you plan to do some caches over here: It is legal to make and give away private ("security") copies of your CDs and DVDs for free (it's just forbidden to sell them).

In any other case: hands off!

 

BS/2

I rarely disagree with BS/2, but: even if it is legal to make "backup copies" of your CDs (this is not clear in most legal systems), it's completely illegal to give them away, because at that point, they are no longer your backups. I guess it might be legal to give them away at the same time as you give the original CD to the same person, again assuming that making a backup was legal in the first place.

 

Otherwise, as people have pointed out, a sort of "physical Napster" (eg, kids sharing CDs at school) would be legal, which it isn't.

 

Nick

Nick, if you're better informed about the Austrian UrhG than me, please provide some further insight; maybe the forum of the Austrian Judges' Association might be the correct place for your answer: http://www.richtervereinigung.at

 

Surprised,

BS/2

[+DaveA]

Nick, if you're better informed about the Austrian UrhG than me, please provide some further insight; maybe the forum of the Austrian Judges' Association might be the correct place for your answer: http://www.richtervereinigung.at

 

Surprised,

BS/2

So you are saying that in Austria it is legal to violate copyrights held in other countries?

[dead_white_man]

I can't tell you how much my wrath gets stirred every time this subject come up here.  I am literally disgusted by the number of people who will rationalize and justify stealing!

1) I was not trying to justify copyright violation, I just thought the wording was strange.

2) Copyright violation is not, legally speaking, stealing.

Copyright violation is illegal it is called "theft oif intellectual property".

[Find Now, Log Later?]

No, but those record stores are selling the original, and not keeping a "backup" for themselves.

 

Let's reiterate the points mentioned by n00b and Ju66l3r:

 

You may sell, trade, or give away the originals

You may have one backup copy, as long as you are still in possession of the original

You may NOT sell, trade, or give away copies

That is good information, but might I offer one clarification: Record stores, etc. do not sell "the originals." They sell "original copies."

[+BalkanSabranje]

So you are saying that in Austria it is legal to violate copyrights held in other countries?

No, I'm simply stating the obvious fact that our copyright system is different to that of - say - the US. It is therefor not a violation, but simply a different legal situation. Laws (or a legal position) you are granted inside the US are not per se valid outside the US - but you knew that, didn't you?!

 

BS/2

[+sTeamTraen]

Regardless of what Austrian law used to say (and I would bet my CD collection that this was illegal when Austrian law took precedence, too): as an EU state, Austria is now bound by EU laws and directives on copyright, among other things.

 

If you like, you can try and make a few "backup" copies of one of your music CDs, and stand in the middle of your town giving them away. I'll come and visit you in prison

 

Non-EU countries occasionally show up as loopholes to certain intellectual property rules (for example, at least last time I checked although that was a few years ago, it wasn't quite illegal to sell pirate satellite TV decoder cards in Norway for services which weren't broadcast to Norway). But if you can find a legal verdict stating that you can give away your "backup" copies, I'd be, well, slightly surprised.

 

Nick

[+DaveA]

No, I'm simply stating the obvious fact that our copyright system is different to that of - say - the US. It is therefor not a violation, but simply a different legal situation. Laws (or a legal position) you are granted inside the US are not per se valid outside the US - but you knew that, didn't you?!

 

BS/2

I am pretty certain that anything a US company (or company from anywhere else) has a patent or copyright on they insist on that copyright be protected regardless of where the item is sold.

 

As such, unless Austria has a law that says copyrights originating in other nations can be disregarded, it would seem to be illegal.

 

In any event as has been noted all EU nations are legally obligated to honor copyrights so it is a moot point.

 

I have been in countries like Okinawa where they pirate music and software like mad and even has stores that sell the bootleg stuff. My understanding is that they are violating a law that nobody bothers to enforce, but it remains against the law on the books. I have never heard of a nation that writes theft of copyrighted material into their legal code.

[Jeremy]

This is not the place to discuss copyright law. The OP has been answered. QED.