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Turtle3863

One Ticked Off Paying Cacher

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The below cache was put on hold for being too commercial, by a reviewer that is not from this area and could not understand how a community could have pride in being the home city of a major corporation. If we start getting this picky over cache approving, I am afraid that all creativity will be gone and all caches will become light poll caches because that is all that will get approved. My record is a good one, I have made quality caches and all my local cacher would agree. I hope it does not come to this. You judge for yourself, the cache is below:

 

First in a series of caches on corporations that call Louisville home.

 

 

Yum! Brands, Inc. is the world’s largest restaurant company with more than 33,000 restaurants in over 100 countries and territories and more than 840,000 employees worldwide. Four of their restaurant brands -- KFC, Long John Silver's, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- are the global leaders of the chicken, quick-service seafood, pizza and Mexican-style food categories respectively. A&W Restaurants is the longest running quick-service franchise chain in America.

 

KFC has always been based out of Louisville and Pizza Hut and Taco Bell who were under PepsiCo merged to form Tricom. After acquisition of Long Johns Silvers and A & W the Yum brand was adopted.

 

On a personal note: My late father has told me that the original pressure cooker that Harlan Sanders first cooked his famous pressure cooked chicken in, is displayed in a glass case in the Yum Brands headquarters on Gardner Lane.

 

Do not park in the Yum parking lot. If you take Colonel Sanders Lane to the end, you can park 15 feet from the cache.

 

The cache is a M & M container located on the edge of the grounds of the Yum headquarters. There is just enough room for small items.

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Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing.  These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

 

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Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing.  These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

 

Amazing, I agree with Mopar :D

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....by a reviewer that is not from this area and could not understand how a community could have pride in being the home city of a major corporation.

 

Do you honestly think that helps support your position?

Edited by BlueDeuce

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For it to be commercial you would need to be able to buy somthing and that something has to be advertised.

 

Walmart micros are ok. A walmart micro that says. "Shop walmart" wouldn't.

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Can you buy anything at the HQ?  Or is it just corporate offices?

Just the corporate offices...

Then in spite of the commercial history I think it lacks one basic element of a commercial cache. Which is a way to spend your money there. Maybe the angle is use more of a historical approach. That seems to be what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Your reviewer should be able to point out the rough edges that need to be filed down to a more historical aspect.

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I think it's *very* important to note that the reviewer did not archive the cache or say that it couldn't be listed... the reviewer simply put the cache "on hold", indicating that he or she wanted to discuss it with the other reviewers. That is what we like to do when the decision is not 100% clear-cut under the guidelines. We do this in order to promote consistency in the application of the review standards.

 

The cache owner received a polite note to this effect on the same day that the cache was posted. This thread was the reaction to that note.

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Can you buy anything at the HQ?  Or is it just corporate offices?

Just the corporate offices...

Then in spite of the commercial history I think it lacks one basic element of a commercial cache. Which is a way to spend your money there. Maybe the angle is use more of a historical approach. That seems to be what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Your reviewer should be able to point out the rough edges that need to be filed down to a more historical aspect.

I agree, that was my intention to state the history of Yum Brands. I was simply pointing out how they have grown. I am willing to fine tune it if they were to make certain recommendations.

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I may have overreacted but I felt my integrity was questioned. There has been no consistency in the caching reviewer for this area in recent months.

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The topic in the reviewer's forum was started precisely one hour ago.

 

In the meantime, you're doing a fine job advancing your cause.

 

Kindly give the reviewers a chance to consider your cache submission and reach a consensus. This usually takes about a day, as indicated in the note left on your cache page.

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The topic in the reviewer's forum was started precisely one hour ago.

 

In the meantime, you're doing a fine job advancing your cause.

 

Kindly give the reviewers a chance to consider your cache submission and reach a consensus. This usually takes about a day, as indicated in the note left on your cache page.

Thank you and I am zipping my lip. Goodnight

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KFC has always been based out of Louisville…

  Are you sure of this?  I recall a news story a short while back, about the closing of the original Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant.  This was the very first of the chain, and it stands to reason, therefore, that this is where the company was originally based.  Salt Lake City, Utah.

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KFC has always been based out of Louisville…

Are you sure of this?  I recall a news story a short while back, about the closing of the original Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant.  This was the very first of the chain, and it stands to reason, therefore, that this is where the company was originally based.  Salt Lake City, Utah.

The original Sanders were in Corbin Kentucky. The first franchise was sold under the KFC was sold to the Utah store in question, but the KFC headquarters has always been in Louisville.

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I come here to Geocache, not be advertised to. Bad enough I have to see REI, etc. at times plastered upon this website in certain areas. I enjoy this site immensely because of the fun times it presents to me and all the wonderful people I have met and had fun with. <_<

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I personally don't see it as commercial. Many towns are closely tied to the corporations that call them home and they are very much a part of the fabric of local life. It seems that this cache simply highlights that. Nobody is being encouraged to buy anything. In fact this isprobably less commercial than the ubiquitious Walmart lot caches

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How about rewording the cache to sound less like a paid advertisement?

Describe the cache first, then go into the reason you placed the cache.

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Brian, would you change your mind if you saw all of these graphics on the cache page?

 

yb_hdr_r1_c1.gif

brands.gif

 

You can hide a film canister in a Wal-Mart parking lot without putting the Wal-Mart logo and corporate history on your cache page.

 

The cache description text, plus all of the logos, taken as a whole, make this one a close call, which is why it's under further review.

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I'd dump the current preachy logos and keep the "Yum! Brands" half of the image.

 

I liked the Chatanooga Choo-Choo cache submission too, though, so what do I know.

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I was gonna post that even with the graphics, it wasn't too commercial, IMO. Then as I was looking at it, I started to get really hungry. :rolleyes:

 

Would the cache be OK without the graphics?

Edited by sbell111

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If it were up to a vote I'd definately vote no on the graphic. The use of trademarks would be in poor taste in my opinion. I'm not even sure how I feel about listing them by name in the discription.

 

It's almost like it's a virtual cache but with a traditional container type cache at the location.... Actually maybe a virtual cache with the coordinate of the pressure cooker would be better, verify it was done by getting some sort of info from the location or a picture of the cooker with teh gps in the frame.

 

I don't know, /shrug.

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Logos are making me hungry too.

 

The historical emphasis would be wise, but why is the headquarters of real historical import? Did he develop the cooking process, etc... on that property? Was it where he tested the fast food concept? Was this where he developed the secret recipe....all these points might add historical perspective.

 

Just a little food for thought :rolleyes:

Edited by tiki-4

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I thought the historical perspective was 'Hey, look at this pot!'

 

edit: I really should proof

Edited by sbell111

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If it were up to a vote I'd definately vote no on the graphic. The use of trademarks would be in poor taste in my opinion. I'm not even sure how I feel about listing them by name in the discription.

Your opinion might be solidified if you took a peek at the Yum Brands Homepage where the very first paragraph of text reads as follows:

 

Yum! Brands, Inc. is the world’s largest restaurant company with more than 33,000 restaurants in over 100 countries and territories and more than 840,000 employees worldwide. Four of our restaurant brands -- KFC, Long John Silver's, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- are the global leaders of the chicken, quick-service seafood, pizza and Mexican-style food categories respectively. A&W Restaurants is the longest running quick-service franchise chain in America.

 

Sound familiar?

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If it were up to a vote I'd definately vote no on the graphic.  The use of trademarks would be in poor taste in my opinion.  I'm not even sure how I feel about listing them by name in the discription.

Your opinion might be solidified if you took a peek at the Yum Brands Homepage where the very first paragraph of text reads as follows:

 

Yum! Brands, Inc. is the world’s largest restaurant company with more than 33,000 restaurants in over 100 countries and territories and more than 840,000 employees worldwide. Four of our restaurant brands -- KFC, Long John Silver's, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- are the global leaders of the chicken, quick-service seafood, pizza and Mexican-style food categories respectively. A&W Restaurants is the longest running quick-service franchise chain in America.

 

Sound familiar?

Joe Biden? Is that you? :rolleyes:

 

Actually, the copying of the text and logos really doesn't bother me too much. I don't think a cache near a corporate headquarters is going to make me want to frequent these fast food resturaunts any more than I already do.

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First in a series of caches on corporations that call Louisville home.

 

I personally like the local history of things, and would like a series of caches like this that describe various corporations in my town that have historic value. I thought the text was tasteful and not selling me anything. I also didn't have a problem with the graphics. Maybe if it was tiled as the background image it would be less 'in your face', I don't know. Although not as neat as "learning about new places", I like the "learning about new things" aspect of geocaching. Just my opinions...

 

--Marky

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A point of thought for the approvers on this one, Keystone.

 

My parents live in Baltimore (and I used to as well). My grandfather, father, and uncle all work or have worked for the B&O Railroad (now CSX, formerly Chessie).

 

Let's say that my father wants to hide a cache at the CSX corporate offices in Baltimore.

 

Along Marky's posted line of thought, is it just as problematic to post that cache with a CSX logo and some of their "Who are we" text on its page? I mean, if you had to ship coal on the East Coast, you might be influenced to use their services instead of their competitor, right? Or is it the fact that this cache is a fast-food service that gives the approvers pause because it's commercial value to the common person is greater than most commercial enterprises?

 

I don't think the second question should come into mind when applying the commercial cache guideline. As long as the hider is not representative of the company and it is described as a cache about the history of the area then like it or not, part of Louisville comes from the development of the Yum! Brand and a cache pointing this out isn't trying to sell anything.

 

There is an identifiable difference between hiding a cache in support or sales of a commercial enterprise (A.P.E. caches, Jeep TBs) and hiding them in recognition of a commercial enterprise (Yum Brands are part of Louisville history).

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  I suppose things like this are why we have so many “guidlines” instead of “rules”, with the approvers given some discretion as to what to allow, and what to deny, on a case-by-case basis.

 

  Just today, I found a cache which had a name suggesting that it might be connected with an eating establishment.  It came up on a search of caches near somewhere I had business to conduct, and I decided that if it was an eating establishment, and the prices and offerings were to my liking, I was gonna have lunch there.  (As it happens, the cache was at an eating establishment, which is apparently connected with the company under discussion with regard to the OP's “on-hold” cache.)

 

  Was this cache consistent with the guidlines?  Apparently, a local approver decided it was.  In this instance, it did end up (probably not by intent, but as an obvious effect) providing a bit of advertising for the restaurant.  If this cache wasn't there, I would probably not have eaten there today.

 

  In Buelton, a small town not far from where I used to live, there's a much more blatant cache — a virtual that makes reference to a very famous restaurant in the area, and encourages seekers to eat at that restaurant.

 

  I suppose there's a point where advertising would detract from the enjoyment of geocaching.  In spite of the two examples that I just mentioned, I do not think it's yet come close to that point.  I guess the purpose ofthis particular guidline is to make sure it doesn't.

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I agree with Juggler. Neither the graphics nor the verbiage bother me.

 

BTW, I really enjoyed the micros at Papa John's HQ. They did not make me buy a pizza, but I did get hungry. I had to go right over to McD's for a burger. :rolleyes:

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When we're traveling, the Mrs. likes these kinds of "local flavor" caches. I'm not that into them, but it gets us out caching together and puts her in a positive frame of mind for when I suggest we see what's on the other side of that mountain over there.

 

I have a virtual that probably would not be allowed under todays rules. It's sitting outside the entrance to the oldest bar in the state and home to some of the best fried chicken I've ever had. Certainly better than the pre-processed dreck you get at KFC. I think I've only had one negative reaction to it--if you look at the name of said visitor, you will probably recognize the name as a (now banned) former rabblerouser.

 

If I was visiting Louisville on a weekend jaunt, it might be interesting to visit the home of all-that-is-evil-in-culinary-America. To be honest, though, I'd much rather visit the place where they make small wooden bats out of large trees.

 

-E

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I agree, this one seems more like an advertisement for Yum brands than a history lesson about the Louisville area. It doesn't seem to meet the guidelines to me.

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Yum! Brands, Inc. is the world’s largest restaurant company with more than 33,000 restaurants in over 100 countries and territories and more than 840,000 employees worldwide. Four of their restaurant brands -- KFC, Long John Silver's, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- are the global leaders of the chicken, quick-service seafood, pizza and Mexican-style food categories respectively. A&W Restaurants is the longest running quick-service franchise chain in America.

 

KFC has always been based out of Louisville and Pizza Hut and Taco Bell who were under PepsiCo merged to form Tricom. After acquisition of Long Johns Silvers and A & W the Yum brand was adopted.

 

On a personal note: My late father has told me that the original pressure cooker that Harlan Sanders first cooked his famous pressure cooked chicken in, is displayed in a glass case in the Yum Brands headquarters on Gardner Lane.

 

Do not park in the Yum parking lot. If you take Colonel Sanders Lane to the end, you can park 15 feet from the cache.

 

The cache is a M & M container located on the edge of the grounds of the Yum headquarters. There is just enough room for small items.

Those in favour of this type of caches have been mentioning community, social fabric and local history. How are any of those reflected in your text (with the possible excpetion of the one original paragraph with your personal note)?

 

Sure, if you are goingto talk about how a small company grew up in your town, that's excellent. But if you're just giving some corporate speek, drop some brand names and flash some logos, it's a thumbs down, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Looking at the logos and at the cache page, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth - probably not what you wanted.

 

But - if you go ahead and make a Yum! cache, don't use an M&M container, but find something relevant to Yum!

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I would like to thank everyone for his or her support and for his or her opinion on this subject. I would just like to state the reasons why I did this cache the way it is listed. First of all I invite you to look at my other cache that are similar: GCG82Q GCG9XW GCG521 GCG59E. I think you will find that theses caches have a great deal of history and do not leave a bad taste in your mouth. I have two other caches wrote for the Band X in the Ville series, one at Papa Johns and the other about Humana. They both have a lot more history attached to the page than the Yum cache. Because Yum has 5 brands under its umbrella and because I chose to keep the cache description to one page I kept the history brief. It would have taken 2 plus pages to write up a history for each brand. I will drop the logo for the 5 brands if that will make it less commercial. The reason I included it was just to show the brands under the Yum brands. I will also add more history on KFC to make this one a little more historical. It does concern me that a cache that has no commercial value should get this much attention. There are plenty of examples of this kind of cache in just about any town. We must ask a few questions: Can you buy anything there? Do I profit from this cache? Then ask the most important question: Does this kind of scrutiny help or hurt the sport we all love and squash creativity to the point that we will all will be hunting micros in light poles (not that there is anything wrong with that)?

Edited by Turtle3863

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Please don't give me an excuse to drive past Starbucks. I must feed the addiction. :P

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So.... are all the Starbucks caches commercial?

I didn't want to be the one to bring them up :P but I was wondering the same thing

Because the primary owner of Starbucks caches lives near me, I have quite a bit of experience in reviewing those caches under the commercial cache guidelines.

 

See my post above about a film canister in the parking lot of a "Wally World." Just substitute "parking lot of a Starbucks." If the cache page talked about how great the Cafe Verona coffee flavor was, or had paragraphs of corporate marketing materials, it would not have been listed. In fact, I've asked cache owners to remove such references and they've done so without any problem. The Starbucks caches that I've listed have not contained quotes from the Starbucks website or Starbucks graphics, at least when I listed them.

 

The goal is to have a cache to hunt in a publicly accessible place that doesn't obligate you to go into the store and/or buy anything, and doesn't provide a cache description that is focused on the business rather than the cache. Mentioning "Wally World" or "Bullseye" or "SBUX" or "Golden Arches" as part of the cache title or description will let the finder know generally where the cache is located, just like saying it's in Memorial Park.

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It does concern me that a cache that has no commercial value should get this much attention. There are plenty of examples of this kind of cache in just about any town. We must ask a few questions: Can you buy anything there? Do I profit from this cache? Then ask the most important question: Is this kind of scrutiny help or hurt the sport we all love and squash creativity to the point that we will all be hunting micros in light poles (not that there is anything wrong with that)?

In an earlier post to this thread, you complain about having "no consistency" in cache reviews for your area. Then, when the volunteer said they wanted to check with the rest of the group -- in order to be consistent -- you're now complaining about too much scrutiny. I found that interesting.

 

Part of the "scrutiny" is because you started a forum topic about your cache. (EDIT to clarify: you have every right to do this, within the bounds of the forum guidelines, and I am not criticizing the fact that a topic was started about this cache.) Lots of caches are put on hold and discussed. It goes on every day, whether the issue is proximity to a railroad track, commercial content, or having food in the cache. Our goal is to find a way to get the cache listed within the listing guidelines. Lots of times, this can happen if some adjustments are made.

 

Hopefully, your reviewer will hear back soon from Groundspeak (the reviewers' consensus was to kick it upstairs, and this was communicated to the cache owner). Perhaps the cache will be OK'd as is, or maybe you'll hear one or two suggestions for changes that would then allow for your cache to be listed.

Edited by Keystone Approver

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I don't have a problem with it. It's far less commercial than these two already approved caches: Timbits Cache and Krispy Kreme Kache

 

And I've found others at corporate sites and never seen a problem with them. I guess it depends on what kind of history you prefer. Personally, I'd rather read this type of history than the Lewis & Clark once saw a frog jump across a creek here type. :P

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I don't have a problem with it. It's far less commercial than these two already approved caches: Timbits Cache and Krispy Kreme Kache

 

And I've found others at corporate sites and never seen a problem with them. I guess it depends on what kind of history you prefer. Personally, I'd rather read this type of history than the Lewis & Clark once saw a frog jump across a creek here type. :unsure:

Yeah, those should go too. No corporate logo belongs in the cache descripiton. In my opinion anyway. They even are telling you to go in to buy a donut what's up with that?!? :blink:

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I don't have a problem with it. It's far less commercial than these two already approved caches: Timbits Cache and Krispy Kreme Kache

 

And I've found others at corporate sites and never seen a problem with them. I guess it depends on what kind of history you prefer.  Personally, I'd rather read this type of history than the Lewis & Clark once saw a frog jump across a creek here type.  :ph34r:

Yeah, those should go too. No corporate logo belongs in the cache descripiton. In my opinion anyway. They even are telling you to go in to buy a donut what's up with that?!? :rolleyes:

Dude, those aren't donuts....

 

They're Krispy Kremes.

 

In the land of Dunkin, I pray for those moments when I can pass by a Hot Light.

 

No offense, Stunod.

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OK, I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I thought of it as I was walking past Groundspeak's lawyer's office (or whatever the whois address is) today:

 

How is the cache in question any different in spirit from this particular cache that I have on my to do list. :rolleyes:

 

Yeah, I know. Who pays the bills for this website isn't a small matter, but if I was passing through Louisville and doing some caching, I think I'd be glad to learn about the business history of the city, especially since I'm familiar (too familiar) with the product.

Edited by Bull Moose

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How is the cache in question any different in spirit from this particular cache that I have on my to do list.  :unsure:

 

Wow, that's a big logo :rolleyes: .......After looking at it for awile. I feel like I want to go geocaching or listen for the ground to speak or something like that :anicute: .

Edited by Turtle3863

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