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geobernd

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Just because you might follow the guidelines when placing caches does not mean that all people will follow them when finding them. The fact that you got a permit to place a cache will not stop people from parking illegally or bushwhacking to the cache. Are they going to revoke your permit because someone else didn't follow the rules.

 

Since I am now responsible for cache seekers (and have told them where to park etc). I see no reason to place caches where people will abuse common sense. The caches I am referring to have been archived and were probably placed with poor judgement on my behalf.

 

I would love to see New York Admin take the lead on this but that's up to him.

 

Me too. I would also like to see geocaching.com take some initiative and give some direction so we are not all left to bicker in the forums.

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I would love to see New York Admin take the lead on this but that's up to him.

... or her (?)

 

As somebody else pointed out, at least there is a policy acknowledging geocaching, and doesn't have it banned. I hope that over the next year we can work with the officials and NYGO to get the policies tweaked.

 

The big thing to me is the 20 foot rule from the trail. Certainly there are other activities people do in parks that bring them off the 20 foot rule (is hunting allowed in state parks??) I definitely have noticed that caches of mine that are close to the trails have more of a geo-trail than caches further off the trail.

 

I don't know how to best communicate this. I fear if we were to show the powers that be how geo-trails are made by caches close to the trail, that geocaching would be banned outright.

 

Does this new policy mean that caches inside the Adirondack blue line are now allowed with a permit?

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I agree with the sane heads in the room. I too am a bit harsh when it comes to the State regulating me but I don't think that anyone has touched upon of for that matter even care about the issue of money. It seems apparent to me that everytime the state requires a permit for ANYTHING, they expect you to pay a charge. Maybe I am a bit stuborn, I would say principaled, but I can never accept being charged for my park activities. We together pay the cost of maintaining these parks not only though donations but our tax dollars. I just see this as a money grab by the state. It seems to me that the State of New York has found a new revenue source...us. Will someone please address the issue of payment and do you think that is acceptable?

 

I think it's the giant elephant in the corner which everyone is ignoring. This move has ZERO to do with nature preservation, ZERO to do with safety and all to do with MONEY! These pigs just want money! There planning on jerking us around and being a big pain in the arse just to get at some money, plain and simple.

 

IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

Peace.

Edited by matty714
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Well I removed my Pirate caches from Harriman today

Oh, you mean the ones you wanted to only be temporary in the first place? NYAdmin LOVED YOU for those, Mr. Compliance. :D:D

 

The ones, that despite jonboy getting there 5 minutes before me, and pushing past me to hop on that rock, couldn't find?

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I guess the news hasn't filtered down to the majority of the rangers yet. I left my number with them to contact me when they would like me to get a permit or remove the caches. Oh well, guess I will keep my other caches until I get told to remove them. 

 

It could possibly be a weekend part-time staff...

 

It could turn out that the whole thing is a weekend part time deal. Maybe everyone should wait until it's fleshed out before you start removing caches.

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IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

 

I thought I read somewhere that they're not charging for the permits.

 

Anyway, I'm not surprised at all that they had no idea what you were talking about Mark. I don't think it's a weekend thing, I think it's an; oblivious to anything out side of the status quo, thing. This may take months or years to get to all the State Parks in New York. Imagine how long it will take for the info to filter down to Long Island.

 

I just thought of an even bigger problem. If your local parks dept is completely clueless when it comes to the permits and even geocaching in general and GC.com won't list a state parks cache without a permit, something has to give. Until we are 100% certain that this info, and the application is in every singe state park office, GC.com cannot enforce this policy. As soon as I know my local park managers and office administrators have the pertinent info and are furnished with the applications and the stickers, I will fully comply as best I can or appeal if I can't.

Edited by JMBella
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My apologies if I sound like I am bickering. I was really only trying to emphasiize how INEPT and LAZY most of the government workers are who make these decisions. I commend Jonboy for the work he does with the parks.

 

I agree the .25 mile rule is fine. The permit idea is OK also, but I don't love it.

 

The problem is that each individual in the department has the opportunity to decide on their own how to handle caches. Who runs the parks? Are they run by the people for the people or by the ranger for the ranger?

 

The 20 foot rule is ludicrus. If the only parts of Harriman or the Adirondack parks worth visiting are within 20 feet of a trail, sell the rest of the land off and give me an affordable place to live. Or is there something possible 50 feet off a trail that might be worth while seeing?

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The 20 foot rule is ludicrus. If the only parts of Harriman or the Adirondack parks worth visiting are within 20 feet of a trail, sell the rest of the land off and give me an affordable place to live. Or is there something possible 50 feet off a trail that might be worth while seeing?

 

I seriously think we will be able to negotiate this on a case by case basis.

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I agree that it will be quite a while before a system is in place whereby geocachers can receive approval for the placement of Geocaches in NY State Parks. Prior to this time, there had been no official ruling on whether or not geocaches were allowed, so I felt if it's not prohibited, then it is allowed. Now there has been a ruling, and there can be no denying those caches in those parks without permits are there unlawfully. While I was willing to bend the rules, I am not willing to knowingly remain in violation of those regulations by leaving my caches in the parks unlawfully.

 

I'll admit that my motives are mixed, but my primary motive is that I know some of these parks personnel and some of them know me. The identity of the cache owner"jonboy" cannot be much of a mystery, since I posted my picture in my profile. I do not want the embarassment of being seen to be in willful violation of park regulations by parks people I have to deal with. I want to be able to say that as soon as it became clear that my caches were in the parks in violation of regulations, I started to remove them. Apart from being the right thing to do, I also feel that this is the smart thing to do. I want to show that geocachers are not scofflaws and to acknowledge that our activities in the parks are subject to regulation, just like everyone else's. This does not make me a wimp, but a responsible, law-abiding citizen.

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This does not make me a wimp, but a responsible, law-abiding citizen.

I completely agree.

 

Now there has been a ruling, and there can be no denying those caches in those parks without permits are there unlawfully.

 

I completely disagree. IMO, the ruling says caching IS allowed on state property and they are working to establish a permit system to regulate it. Until the permit system is completely in place, the existing caches can't be in violation of anything.

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The thing that surprises me (obviously negatively) the most is that there was no publicity, public hearings etc. about this set of regulations. They seem to have come from a one park experiment without any input from the public.

I am not sure how the NY State park system is run but this seems certainly not in the interest of the public.

When my town wants to change town codes (even completly unimportant ones) there is publications, there is open meetings where everyone can voice their opinion etc...

I am afraid that if we just accept the ruling we'll be stuck with the 20 foot rule and the (IMHO) unrealistic 5 per owner per park - regardless of it's size - rule...

(I have no problem with the other parts of it)....

I would almost say the time to make noise about this is now - once it's fully established it might be impossible to get someone to take a good second look.

If someone can point me to what this permit is officially called (publication number or some way of relaying it in a meaningful way to our appointed officials) I'll make my first step by writing some emails....

 

On a more off topic note:

While out caching today I (as so many times) saw 2 sets of teenagers on illegal ATVs - I called the Park Ranger Office for that park (which I choose to leave unnamed) and all I got was an answering machine.... So much for enforcement.... It seems much easier to place restrictions on inanimate objects (aka Geocaches) then enforcing much more severe violations... Maybe someone should shift the focus a bit....

Edited by geobernd
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Isn't Harriman under the rules and regulations of the regulatory commission, the Palisades Interstate Park Commission ? I think PIPC is the operating entity, it is a bi state agency, Palisades Interstate Park, Sterling Forest , Harriman among others.

 

Yes, I believe so. Does that change anything about the permits? It is still NY state land, right?

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geobernd, Great points. That's why we need to have one unified voice. Maybe we can demand a hearing. I don't think that's too much to ask.

I wonder if anyone here can get some details about the process that happend at NYSDEC and their change (btw. What are the exact conditions that the NYSDEC is asking for cache placements?). If there where any studies about the impact of Geocaching etc. that could help our cause...

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I can see the interpretation of Jmbella, but if I could make an analogy to his argument, the state requires that automobile drivers be licensed, therefore driving is legal, therefore how can those who are driving without a license be doing anything wrong if they haven't had a chance to get their licenses yet? Sounds like a pretty shaky line of logic to me. I don't think we will be left to debate it much longer. I suspect geocaching.com will yank the listings once Parks and Rec makes up it's mind to pull the plug, which they will most certainly do once they have the permit system up and running.

I am just removing my caches now because I see the train coming down the track and don't want to wait till it reaches me before I react.

 

As far as how to notify the authorities about illegal ATV use, this link is useful:

 

http://www.nynjtc.org/brochures/IncidentReportProcedure.pdf

 

And yes, geocachers are easier to catch than ATV outlaws, they don't leave e-mail addresses where they can be contacted.

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I agree with the sane heads in the room. I too am a bit harsh when it comes to the State regulating me but I don't think that anyone has touched upon of for that matter even care about the issue of money. It seems apparent to me that everytime the state requires a permit for ANYTHING, they expect you to pay a charge. Maybe I am a bit stuborn, I would say principaled, but I can never accept being charged for my park activities. We together pay the cost of maintaining these parks not only though donations but our tax dollars. I just see this as a money grab by the state. It seems to me that the State of New York has found a new revenue source...us. Will someone please address the issue of payment and do you think that is acceptable?

 

I think it's the giant elephant in the corner which everyone is ignoring. This move has ZERO to do with nature preservation, ZERO to do with safety and all to do with MONEY! These pigs just want money! There planning on jerking us around and being a big pain in the arse just to get at some money, plain and simple.

 

IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

Peace.

When a city council woman recently tried to pass a bill that would make it illegal to ride a bicycle in the city at all without a permit, I just knew Geocaching was going to have problems in this state..

 

The proposed bill would require all cyclists in the city over the age of 16 to register their bicycles with the Department of Transportation. This legislation would also impose steep penalties for failure to comply, which include substantial fines, seizure of property, and jail.

 

What does this have to do with Geocaching???? Anything that’s free…NYC try’s to find a way to make a few $$$

 

So, I'm with you Maty714!!!

 

B/C Your So Right..It's All About MONEY & POWER IN NEW YORK... :lostsignal::D

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I can see the interpretation of Jmbella, but if I could make an analogy to his argument, the state requires that automobile drivers be licensed, therefore driving is legal, therefore how can those who are driving without a license be doing anything wrong if they haven't had a chance to get their licenses yet? Sounds like a pretty shaky line of logic to me. I don't think we will be left to debate it much longer. I suspect geocaching.com will yank the listings once Parks and Rec makes up it's mind to pull the plug, which they will most certainly do once they have the permit system up and running.

I am just removing my caches now because I see the train coming down the track and don't want to wait till it reaches me before I react.

 

As far as how to notify the authorities about illegal ATV use, this link is useful:

 

http://www.nynjtc.org/brochures/IncidentReportProcedure.pdf

 

And yes, geocachers are easier to catch than ATV outlaws, they don't leave e-mail addresses where they can be contacted.

However, there is a process in place for people to attain a driver's license. As of now, there is no way for us to attain a cache permit. Until this process is 100% up and running, the policy can't be enforced. They can't have a ruling that says You can place a cache with a permit. Oh, by the way, we don't have the permits yet. All I'm saying is that I don't think the policy is actually in effect yet.

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IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

 

How can it be about the money if the permits are free? Its all about the power!

B/c It's A Great Marketing Ploy.... Free permit’s for Geocaches.. But it cost you $6.00 each time you come to our office.. Then us NY park managers can still say NOPE!!!.. Try again!!!..Pick a new spot!!! Sorry, Come back again $$$$

I don't see that happening. Do you really think they're drooling over the EXTRA money they're gong to make off of a very small percentage of park visitors. I honestly think they have some real misconceptions about geocaching and they think this is the correct coarse of action. Actually, if you think about, it probably cost them more money to print the applications and the stickers than they will ever make back from the few extra parking fees they'll get.

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Does that change anything about the permits?

 

Palisades Interstate Park Commission does set forth regulatory schemes based upon user groups. Hikers comprise the one of the largest user groups and a group that holds a lot of sway with the commission and the land managers. Why is that, well a certain orgainization (NYNJTC) provides much in the way of trail maint and design and is active. When the Sterling Forest Tract came under the auspices of PIPC, the commission went to the NYNJTC and basically had them dictate uses for the park. (They held public hearings, that were hiker dominated) One result was that the NYNJTC cut out mountain biking from Sterling Forest for a period of time. Nothwithstanding the particular appropriate woods road system. That was the NYNJTC antipathy toward biking shown full color. But the point, join the NYNJTC and voice your opinion to them that they support the sport or game of geocaching as a valuable resource towards proper park usuage. The Palisades Interstate Park Commission holds regular public meetings, and I would venture a guess that the public has probably not been seen at one in years. The Trail Conference is sensitive to other user groups now, because the mountain bikers have taught them a thing or two about the "public right to use of public land", the bikers were one step away from getting total access and the next step would have been ATV's , the conference opted to negotiate. That is not a bad thing, nor is it a criticism, it is reality and reality says that if you want to get attention, get it through a group that gets attention from the land manager. The NYNJTC will do that, provided you make your views known. It is stodgy, no doubt and they will look down upon geocachers as dillitentes, but if sufficient numbers make their voice known it may just work.

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It is stodgy, no doubt and they will look down upon geocachers as dillitentes, but if sufficient numbers make their voice known it may just work.

 

Many TC members enjoy geocaching, including several former high ranking officals.

 

That being said, because geocaching doesn't negatively effect the hiking experience, or damage trails maintained by the TC in the way mountain bikes and ATVs do, I doubt geocaching is a concern to the organization.

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There is an analogy here and a lesson to be drawn. Mountain bikers started off under the radar, with little impact, riding where they pleased. As the sport grew, so did it's negative impact and bad reputation. They came to lumped together with ATV users as trail destroying vandals. Mountain bikers reacted to this kind of hyperbole and animas by getting organized, working to help maintain trails and educate and police the handful of irresponsible bikers who were causing them so much bad publicity and things have turned around.

 

This is about where we are with geocaching. The days when you could put a cache anywhere you pleased are over, never to return. If we fail to better organize and bring ourselvers under control, there will be a continuing backlash against us. Yes, I wish for the freedom to just go out and plop down caches anywhere that takes my fancy, but I knew such free license couldn't last. So now, do we work to try and resolve the concerns of those responsible for the lands we use for our sport, or do we wait until the red lights start flashing in our rear windshields and we find our sport impounded?

Edited by jonboy
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reality says that if you want to get attention, get it through a group that gets attention from the land manager. The NYNJTC will do that, provided you make your views known. It is stodgy, no doubt and they will look down upon geocachers as dillitentes, but if sufficient numbers make their voice known it may just work.

 

This was exactly my point earlier. I don't think it will cause them to look down on geocachers because of it. Quite the opposite has happened on Long Island from a similar relationship. It absolutely adds credibility to our organization.

 

So now what? Who's got the ball and who's going to run with it? Who's driving this ship?

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There is an analogy here and a lesson to be drawn. Mountain bikers started off under the radar, with little impact, riding where they pleased. As the sport grew, so did it's negative impact and bad reputation. They came to lumped together with ATV users as trail destroying vandals. Mountain bikers reacted to this kind of hyperbole and animas by getting organized, working to help maintain trails and educate and police the handful of irresponsible bikers who were causing them so much bad publicity and things have turned around.

 

This is about where we are with geocaching. The days when you could put a cache anywhere you pleased are over, never to return. If we fail to better organize and bring ourselvers under control, there will be a continuing backlash against us. Yes, I wish for the freedom to just go out and plop down caches anywhere that takes my fancy, but I knew such free license couldn't last. So now, do we work to try and resolve the concerns of those responsible for the lands we use for our sport, or do we wait until the red lights start flashing in our rear windshields and we find our sport impounded?

Great point.

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I know some people have voiced concerns about the fact that NYGO worked with the parks to establish these rules. One person suggested that this should have been left to NY-Admin and Geocaching.com to sort out. I don't necessarily agree with this. GC.com is the listing service for geocaching. Their role is to make sure that the caches we place are in compliance with the rules of the area, not to establish those rules.

 

It is up to the geocachers to develop good working relationships with the parks. Of course, the best way to do that is to provide a unified voice; to work together as a group to represent the interests of geocachers across the state. This was the reason that NYGO was formed and the reason why we SHOULD be the ones working with the State Parks on this. We, of course, appreciate any assistance that NY-Admin can provide, but I don't feel that it should be expected of him/her.

 

As JMBella and I have both stated, this permit system is new and I feel certain that it is negotiable. We need to work with them to show that we are willing to comply with these new regulations. We can also continue to work with them to fine tune these rules.

 

There is no fee involved in the permit application at this time, and to my knowledge, there is no plan to implement a fee in the future. The state parks realize that geocaching is drawing people to their parks, which means increased revenue from the gate admission. They want to encourage geocaching, but at the same time, realize that they need to place some limitations on it.

 

Some have mentioned the fact that our tax dollars pay for these parks, therefore they have no right to regulate how we use them. Using that theory, we should be able to go and cut down trees, dig up flowers, etc. Obviously that is not the case. The same holds true for the new geocaching policy. They are designed to minimize impact on the off-trail areas and ensure the safety of everyone using the park.

 

There have been several good points brought up in this thread. I was thinking it might be a good idea to get everyone together for an online chat to discuss this new policy. There is a chat room on the NYGO site (www.ny-geocaching.org), or just /join NYGO from IRC. Is there an evening that works best for everyone to discuss this?

 

Junglehair

NYGO President

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doubt geocaching is a concern to the organization.

 

Well, that is my point perhaps with increased numbers it would be of concern to the orgainization.

 

In the alternative there would need to be a recognized organization. In the way that NORBA and IMBA got public land access for bikes, the parent organization would make the push. One would think that the manufacturers of receiver's would be in on the push, just as the bike mnfctrs were heavy into the lobbying for access.

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doubt geocaching is a concern to the organization.

 

Well, that is my point perhaps with increased numbers it would be of concern to the orgainization.

 

In the alternative there would need to be a recognized organization. In the way that NORBA and IMBA got public land access for bikes, the parent organization would make the push. One would think that the manufacturers of receiver's would be in on the push, just as the bike mnfctrs were heavy into the lobbying for access.

That very discussion has been going on in the general forums over the past few days. Some think its an idea whose time has come. Others are against it and feel the local orgs are enough to do the job.

 

Well, that is my point perhaps with increased numbers it would be of concern to the orgainization.

 

Being that its not consistent with their mission, I doubt that it ever would be something that they would entertain. Now there are individual members who have relationships with park officials that might be exploitable outside of the TC, but that's for them to decided if they are interested in doing so.

Edited by briansnat
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Regarding the NYNJTC, I spoke to them recently about NYGO becoming one of their member organizations. They need to approve our application, but they didn't think that would be a problem - they thought we would be a good fit.

When was the last time you spoke to them? Can we schedule a meeting to discuss geocaching and this matter in particular?

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I spoke to them about a month ago and they forwarded the membership application to me.  I'm not sure they would be able to help us too much until we are officially a member organization, but I can follow up with them and see what they suggest.

It takes a while to be approved.

More than a month? Why?

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I spoke to them about a month ago and they forwarded the membership application to me.  I'm not sure they would be able to help us too much until we are officially a member organization, but I can follow up with them and see what they suggest.

It takes a while to be approved.

More than a month? Why?

I have to check the bylaws, but I think member groups have to be voted on by the board and delegates and they only meet a few times a year.

 

Its a geat idea for the NYGO to join. It will give some exposure and legitimacy to the group, but as far as influencing the TC to take a stand on geocaching, I doubt it will happen. Their mission is building, maintaining and protecting hiking trails. Period. The reason they've taken stands on ATVs and MTBs is because they directly affect trails and the hiking experience.

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I agree with Brian, The NY/NJTC is a trails organization, and if NYGO joins, they will be expected to contribute towards the maintenance of trails, as an organization. It will not matter that some members are already active volunteers, what will count is that someting is done under the auspices of NYGO. Also, there is some opposition to geocaching in the hiking community, so don't expect them to embrace a potentially divisive cause.

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I know some people have voiced concerns about the fact that NYGO worked with the parks to establish these rules.

I - for one - am happy that NYGO took the lead (otherwise we might have gotten nothing) - and continues to do so...

I think the problem right now is that NYGO was also broadsided by the appliaction of this 'work in progress' ruleset to the whole of NY State Parks without any further input....

I just joined the NYGO website - and I am happy to join any online discussions etc. . And - of course- to attend any public hearing that might help our cause....

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I spoke to them about a month ago and they forwarded the membership application to me.  I'm not sure they would be able to help us too much until we are officially a member organization, but I can follow up with them and see what they suggest.

It takes a while to be approved.

More than a month? Why?

I have to check the bylaws, but I think member groups have to be voted on by the board and delegates and they only meet a few times a year.

 

Its a geat idea for the NYGO to join. It will give some exposure and legitimacy to the group, but as far as influencing the TC to take a stand on geocaching, I doubt it will happen. Their mission is building, maintaining and protecting hiking trails. Period. The reason they've taken stands on ATVs and MTBs is because they directly affect trails and the hiking experience.

OK, that makes sense. Do you know when their next meeting is?

 

Hey, why don't I check out their website. :lol:

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I recall there was some opposition to the Catskill 3500 Club joining the NY/NJ TC a decade or so ago. The argument was made that we were peak baggers looking for an endorsement from the Conference, not a hiking club and it probably took six months before we were approved, and only after we adopted a trail section to maintain. I could envisage similar objections to the joining of NYGO. NYGO can not be seen as joining the conference purely as a means of promoting itself and it's own interests, delegates must be convinced that NYGO has a sincere interest in helping to build and protect the hiking trail network. I was one of that club's early delegates.

Edited by jonboy
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I recall there was some opposition to the Catskill 3500 Club joining the NY/NJ TC a decade or so ago. The argument was made that we were peak baggers looking for an endorsement from the Conference, not a hiking club and it probably took six months before we were approved, and only after we adopted a trail section to maintain

 

I think they're a little more accomodating these days. If you look at the member list you will see a canoe club, a ski club, a folk music society and even a community swimming pool :lol: . I also know of a mountain bike group that has asked for membership (that one is a harder sell).

 

As long as the group is interested in being stewards of our region's hiking trails and willing to contribute some sweat, they are usually admitted.

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