Nys Parks & Recreation Survey

February 1, 2005

I just got a random survey from NYS Parks & Recreation in the mail today -

I was very happy to see that one of the activites in the list of activities for which I had to give the number of days I did it was Geocaching. It of course dominated my list of activities...

I sure hope a lot of cachers be getting this survey...

February 3, 2005

Wow, the survey sounds like a nice idea for them to do!

FYI...

The NY State Parks are currently running an approved geocaching pilot program through the end of this year at Letchworth State Park. The pilot program was developed by the Albany headquarters and the park's director with input from NYGO.

At the end of the year the pilot program will be evaluated and a determination will be made whether/how to administer geocaching in the other state parks.

The pilot program at Letchworth is administered through the park's office, from which you can obtain a free permit for placing a cache in the park.

The park folks at Letchworth have been very interested and helpful in establishing this trial program. Geocaching is still somewhat new to them and we need to keep making a good impression. Please keep this in mind when interacting with the park folks about geocaching.

Edited February 3, 2005 by Ferreter5

February 4, 2005

A permit system for the placement and maintenance of geocaches on New York State park lands is already in place. This comes from the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, Bernadette Castro, Commissioner and I believe that includes Letchworth State Park too.

Each approved permit will be accompanied with a label to be placed on the outside of the cache container. These labels will be serial numbered and recorded on each permit. Any caches found by park officials, old caches or new caches, will be removed and held for a period of 30 days during which time they may be claimed.

Permits will be valid for a period of two years at which time the cache must be either removed or relocated and secure a new permit.

If you don't like the .10 mile separation imposed by geocaching.com you won't be thrilled to learn the state parks require a .25 mile separation between caches. No individual may have more than 5 caches per park and each location of a multi counts as a cache toward that total.

There is much, much more in the permit including things like a 20 foot limit from a trail, no bushwhacking, non-breakable waterproof containers with latching mechanism to prevent exposure to wildlife. I read that as ammo cans or Lock-N-Lock.

I've gone over the permit countless times and still find it hard to believe there is NO mention of any cost for the application, label or processing.

The labels have yet to be distributed to the parks as of this morning but everything else is in place and ready to go. Once the Labels are available and this permit system goes into effect I've been asked to list only caches with valid permits.

When the labels are available I'll post to this thread and I'd suggest if you have a cache within a state park already that you place a label on it during your spring maintenance.

38.2k · February 4, 2005

A permit system for the placement and maintenance of geocaches on New York State park lands is already in place. This comes from the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, Bernadette Castro, Commissioner and I believe that includes Letchworth State Park too.....

Is this retroactive? How are the gazillion existing caches to be handled?

February 4, 2005

A permit system for the placement and maintenance of geocaches on New York State park lands is already in place. This comes from the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, Bernadette Castro, Commissioner and I believe that includes Letchworth State Park too.....

Is this retroactive? How are the gazillion existing caches to be handled?

and does this include Harriman? :rolleyes:

February 4, 2005

This includes all 138 New York State Parks managed by the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation. You can look here and find parks by region.

and does this include Harriman?

YES

Is this retroactive? How are the gazillion existing caches to be handled?

You're on your own honor to get your own permit for existing caches. But know if the state finds them without a sticker they will be removed. Don't fool yourselves, every park office has an internet connection and knows exactly what's in their parks. Of the 7 park offices I've been in lately every one had geocaching.com bookmarked and knew what caches were in their parks. That's not to say they will actively seek out geocaches, I'm sure they have much better things to do. So if you don't want to get a permit for your pre-existing caches that's between you and the State of New York but new placements will need a signed permit to pass review.

February 4, 2005

Is this retroactive? How are the gazillion existing caches to be handled?

You're on your own honor to get your own permit for existing caches. But know if the state finds them without a sticker they will be removed. Don't fool yourselves, every park office has an internet connection and knows exactly what's in their parks. Of the 7 park offices I've been in lately every one had geocaching.com bookmarked and knew what caches were in their parks. That's not to say they will actively seek out geocaches, I'm sure they have much better things to do. So if you don't want to get a permit for your pre-existing caches that's between you and the State of New York but new placements will need a signed permit to pass review.

How is the average geocacher supposed to know about this permit system. I'd bet most people would being willing to use it but aren't yet aware. I haven't heard of it until now.

I'll be interested to watch the caches in Green Lake State Park in CNY.

4.5k · February 4, 2005

Now I'm really confused. Wasn't there a recent thread that discussed allowing caching in parks like the Adirondacks and Catskills? What does this have to do now with that?

February 4, 2005

Now I'm really confused. Wasn't there a recent thread that discussed allowing caching in parks like the Adirondacks and Catskills? What does this have to do now with that?

That's an entirely different animal. The Adirondack and Catskill parks are managed by the Dept. of Environmental Conservation Bureau Forest Preserve Management. What we're talking about here is all the little state parks throughout the state which are managed by the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation.

I know it's confusing but if you look at the sigh at the entrance to any state land it will tell you which office manages it.

How is the average geocacher supposed to know about this permit system. I'd bet most people would being willing to use it but aren't yet aware. I haven't heard of it until now.

That is the $64,000 question. These new permits haven't gone live yet but will shortly. When that happens I'll post a note here on this forum and on all five geocaching organizations in the state.

8.1k · February 4, 2005

Crud.

So I have to remove the Africa loop and my other caches in Harriman since I have more than 5? Has anyone told NYGO, they can probably spread the word.

February 4, 2005

This new ruling, if fully implemented will amount to a wholesale purge of geocaches from NY State Parks. I myself would probably have to remove at least thirteen caches in order to come into compliance with this new policy, and I would probably stand to lose far more. The 20 foot limit from a trail seems the most problematic, at least for me. To my mind, a cache within 20 feet of the trail is too close. A cache that close to the trail is much more likely to be visible to the non-geocaching public and thus more of an intrusion, as well as being subject to vandalism. Much as I might want to come into compliance, I certainly won't be the first to walk into a park office and put my head on the chopping block, I have tried this before and been forced to yank all of my caches from a park. The funny thing was that another cacher, who didn't try and communicate with this park, had their caches left alone. I would like to know who will be the first to test out this new permit system and see if it will be used to force the removal of all caches, maybe Big Bill in Harriman?

Edited February 4, 2005 by jonboy

38.2k · February 4, 2005

Crud.
So I have to remove the Africa loop and my other caches in Harriman since I have more than 5? Has anyone told NYGO, they can probably spread the word.

You can have Rose adopt one.

February 4, 2005

You can have Rose adopt one.

I don't think putting half my caches in my wifes name is going to fool anybody, especially if the new cache owner has the same e-mail as the old owner. Don't laugh Brian, it won't be long before New Jersey Parks jumps on the cache regulation bandwagon. I suppose I should be grateful we don't have to have each cache bonded for liability. To me, this is similar to the President's Social Security plan, designed to kill it in the name of reform. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.

38.2k · February 4, 2005

I don't think putting half my caches in my wifes name is going to fool anybody, especially if the new cache owner has the same e-mail as the old owner.

If its a new account it will work.

No individual may have more than 5 caches per park and each location of a multi counts as a cache toward that total.

That will effectively kill multi caches in all NY state parks

Edited February 4, 2005 by briansnat

8.1k · February 4, 2005

That will effectively kill multi caches in all NY state parks

Exactly.

Are they for or against ammo cans then. Wasn't sure from NY admin's post.

Edited February 4, 2005 by avroair

February 4, 2005

A permit system for the placement and maintenance of geocaches on New York State park lands is already in place. This comes from the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, Bernadette Castro, Commissioner and I believe that includes Letchworth State Park too.

Now this I did not know!

NYGO was working with the Letchworth director who in turn contacted the Albany headquarters. Together a prototype free permit/sticker system was worked out for trial in Letchworth through 2005.

I had no idea the Albany headquarters had turned it straight into a state-wide system to be rolled out right away to all the state parks. I'm going to check with some of the other NYGO members who worked on this to find out if they knew what was going to happen.

The limit of 5 (including all stages of a multi) per cacher is a bit silly in the really big parks. In the smaller ones it might make a tad bit more sense. :blink:

The 20-foot limit from the trail could be a problem or I suppose we could look at it as making the hiding of caches so they won't be muggled more challenging. <_<

Note the folks we worked with from Letchworth were very friendly about geocaching and wanted it to be an activity in their park. Please don't think they started this whole thing because they were "out to get us".

February 4, 2005

Are they against ammo cans then or for them. Wasn't sure from NY admin's post.

I don't see how ammo cans are a problem.

February 4, 2005

non-breakable waterproof containers with latching mechanism to prevent exposure to wildlife. I read that as ammo cans or Lock-N-Lock.

I read that as saying they must be ammo cans or some kind of animal resistant container. I don't think any kind of plastic container is animal resistant, locking or not, unless you use one of those bear canisters.

February 4, 2005

I will have to look into this as my only cache (thus far) is in one of those parks.

I have to ask myself, though, how a group that can't pass an ontime budget to save their lives can come up with this full blown permit system on such short notice?

8.1k · February 4, 2005

Well, I think that it is an opportunity to archive some of my caches that may have cluttered up Harriman. The first weekend I am free to get up there I shall remove them.

The multi's thing is a bit brash but at least I can give suggested routes on the cache description page to help people enjoy a hike. (such as placing just one cache at the bottom of africa (around capetown!) and then suggest the trails to get there and back. Something I was wanting to do anyways).

February 4, 2005

Avroair,

What you wanna bet you go into Harriman and ask for a permit for your caches and they jump down your throat and say they don't know anything about permits, but they want those caches out now. Let us know how it goes.

February 5, 2005

...looks like geocaching will become an underground culture. <_<

I really don't understand any of this. Why is there so much backlash from the NYSPC towards geocaching? Am I the only one that thinks someone there has an agenda. But hunting, ATVing and snowmobiling thru forest preserves is OK. My guess it's easier for them to catch a lonely, harmless sitting geocache than to go after law-breakers. I just don't get it.

1.5k · February 5, 2005

...looks like geocaching will become an underground culture.

I really don't understand any of this. Why is there so much backlash from the NYSPC towards geocaching? Am I the only one that thinks someone there has an agenda. But hunting, ATVing and snowmobiling thru forest preserves is OK. My guess it's easier for them to catch a lonely, harmless sitting geocache than to go after law-breakers. I just don't get it.

I don't know if it's a backlash, just that they don't want it getting out of hand. The .25 separation isn't bad, any closer is cluttered anyway. Like Jonboy said at least they aren't asking for liability.

38.2k · February 5, 2005

...looks like geocaching will become an underground culture.

I really don't understand any of this. Why is there so much backlash from the NYSPC towards geocaching? Am I the only one that thinks someone there has an agenda. But hunting, ATVing and snowmobiling thru forest preserves is OK. My guess it's easier for them to catch a lonely, harmless sitting geocache than to go after law-breakers. I just don't get it.

I'm sure they think its a sensible policy. Compared to some other state's geocaching policies, I've seen a lot worse. I do like that they don't insist on clear containers like some jurisdictions and that they're not only OK with ammo boxes, but their policy almost mandates them.

I think the 20 ft from the trail rule is poorly thought out. It will lead to herd paths (aka social trails) to the caches. I personally have found that the farther from a trail that a cache is, the lower the impact is on the surrounding area.

I'm not crazy about the two year limit. Its better than one, but I'd rather see 3 or better yet, 2 year with renewals.

Edited February 5, 2005 by briansnat

8.1k · February 5, 2005

What you wanna bet you go into Harriman and ask for a permit for your caches and they jump down your throat and say they don't know anything about permits, but they want those caches out now.

Double or nothing they have no knowledge! <_<

I never said I was going to ask for permits, just remove a bunch of the clutter

I only break the rules I don't know about.

1k · February 5, 2005

Mark, if you decide to remove the Africa Loop let me know when you will be going. I would like to join you on that loop considering I never got to do it. Besides, Im sure you would like help carrying them out! Didn't Rose carry them all in for you? <_<

If this is the future of geocaching, it is very, very unfortunate. Its only a matter of time before NJ slaps some ridiculous rules on it as well.

Kar

February 5, 2005

What is GC.com's position on this situation?

Are they helping matters with the local area geocachers or are they impartial, just watching the chips fall as they may?

Perhaps this would be a good time to see my membership at work? Hmm?

February 5, 2005

I just read this whole thread (somehow I didn't subscribe when I posted)...

I think the 5 per cacher limit regardless of the size of park is very shortsighted...

The 20 foot limit is also problematic - on the other hand I understand that they don't want people to have an incentive for venturing of the trail....

Does anyone know how one could lobby to mabye get someone to rethink those to points???

Otherwise I'd volunteer to adopt 5 caches in Harriman. I really love the amount of caches in that park - it's a hughe park and I don't think it's overcrowded - compared to how many drive-by's could be done at the same time as a day's hike reveals - I would really like to see them stay there..... Of course that doesn't solve the 20 foot problem....

8.1k · February 5, 2005

Mark, if you decide to remove the Africa Loop let me know when you will be going. I would like to join you on that loop considering I never got to do it. Besides, Im sure you would like help carrying them out! Didn't Rose carry them all in for you? laugh.gif

We had planned 3 each - me 3 ammo cans and Rose two ammo cans and a decon.

Halfway to the first cache site (300 feet) her back hurts - 5-1 me (and she is carrying the decon box). Africa loop 1: The Nile, got placed in the first cool spot... BTW it was 86 degrees out at the end of May!!!

The 20 foot limit is also problematic - on the other hand I understand that they don't want people to have an incentive for venturing of the trail....

This is worse since everyone will beat the same path to get to the cache.

I think the 5 per cacher limit regardless of the size of park is very shortsighted...

Not ideal, but better than 5 per park. period!

I will have to remove some of mine due to the .25 rule.

Edited February 6, 2005 by avroair

38.2k · February 6, 2005

The 20 foot limit is also problematic - on the other hand I understand that they don't want people to have an incentive for venturing of the trail....

At least with Harriman, practically the entire park is within 20 feet of some trail .

8.1k · February 6, 2005

The 20 foot limit is also problematic - on the other hand I understand that they don't want people to have an incentive for venturing of the trail....

At least with Harriman, practically the entire park is within 20 feet of some trail .

Do Brian's and Jonboy's deer trails count? Is there a copy of the permit online or paperwise that can be scanned and posted?

Edited February 6, 2005 by avroair

February 7, 2005

But hunting, ATVing and snowmobiling thru forest preserves is OK.

Please don't confuse the State Parks with the DEC-controlled State Forest Preserves. They are not the same thing nor are they administered by the same department.

February 7, 2005

I'm not crazy about the two year limit. Its better than one, but I'd rather see 3 or better yet, 2 year with renewals.

The last I knew -- and this thread seems to prove how fast things can change -- after the permit expires you can file to renew the existing cache emplacement. It's up to each park manager to determine if a particular cache site will be renewed or if it'll have to be relocated (aka new cache listing).

February 7, 2005

I've gone over the permit countless times and still find it hard to believe there is NO mention of any cost for the application, label or processing.

The original work done between NYGO and the folks at Letchworth was that the permits/stickers were to be free.

After this fiasco of things being immediately rolled out to all the state parks who knows what they have in mind anymore.

Needless to say, I'm not happy, but I'm trying to hide it.

2k · February 7, 2005

Are they against ammo cans then or for them. Wasn't sure from NY admin's post.

I don't see how ammo cans are a problem.

The only "problem" with ammo cans is that they could look threatening, especially if they aren't labeled properly. The nice thing about lock'n'lock is that they are clear and it's easy to tell it just contains "junk". Of course, you could paint the lock'n'lock containers.

I've been using lock'n'lock in more public places so if they're accidentally found the bomb squad doesn't get called in, like the stories we've all heard.

2k · February 7, 2005

How will one get a permit? Just walk to the park office and ask for one? Or do you have to submit a proposal as to location, bring a park official to the spot and make sure it's ok, and write lots of paperwork?

February 7, 2005

How will one get a permit? Just walk to the park office and ask for one?

The last I knew, yes.

Or do you have to submit a proposal as to location, bring a park official to the spot and make sure it's ok, and write lots of paperwork?

That last I knew, no. The permit is the proposal/paperwork. Whether a park's manager feels the need to examine a particular cache location is completely up to them.

"The last I knew..." ...I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

February 7, 2005

The only "problem" with ammo cans is that they could look threatening, especially if they aren't labeled properly.

The last I knew, they know what ammo cans look like and are fine with them as long as they're labeled properly. That's the point of the official sticker.

8.1k · February 7, 2005

The only "problem" with ammo cans is that they could look threatening, especially if they aren't labeled properly.

It's not hard to prepare an ammo can by painting it and adding stencils such as "No danger! Geocaching Game Piece" on the sides and top.

Edited February 7, 2005 by avroair

February 7, 2005

Is THAT a picture of a blimp?!

1k · February 7, 2005

I believe this permit system is a work in progress. NYGO was able to work with the parks to help fine tune the guidelines. Unfortunately, they wouldn't budge on the 5 cache limit. Perhaps that may change in the future as they work out the kinks in this new system.

It is also my understanding that these regulations are at the discretion of the individual park managers. For a large park like Harriman, they may be willing to overlook the 5 cache/person limit.

February 8, 2005

I am just too lazy to do all of this!

Maybe I'll feel like doing it for my cache in the spring!

But certainly not now...

-KolarBear

4.5k · February 8, 2005

Wouldn't it be better to just leave all caches where they are and see what happens. Why rush out and remove all your caches when the rules might be changed?

Edited February 8, 2005 by Alan2

1k · February 8, 2005

Im not from NY but I cache there as often as I can. I think what is out there now, should be grandfathered in, then the kinks can get worked out with setting up this system of permits for any new caches placed after a certain date.

Kar

February 8, 2005

Im not from NY but I cache there as often as I can. I think what is out there now, should be grandfathered in, then the kinks can get worked out with setting up this system of permits for any new caches placed after a certain date.

Kar

Karlo, you're asking the government to be logical.

3.9k · February 9, 2005

I believe this permit system is a work in progress. NYGO was able to work with the parks to help fine tune the guidelines. Unfortunately, they wouldn't budge on the 5 cache limit. Perhaps that may change in the future as they work out the kinks in this new system.

It is also my understanding that these regulations are at the discretion of the individual park managers. For a large park like Harriman, they may be willing to overlook the 5 cache/person limit.

This is key. I'm glad to see that this policy wasn't put in place with absolutely no discussion with the geocaching community. That being said, I would have liked to have known that this was happening before now. I think if the negotiations were more widespread we might have faired a bit better. From what I understand, the off trail hiking is their biggest concern. I don't feel they fully understand that caches don't get visited several times a day, everyday for months. They think a cache being further off trail will lead to a depression in the entire area. This is the response I received locally anyway.

The .25 rule is fine as is the 5 per park, per cacher. IMO we could have done much worse. The 20 foot off trail rule isn't even realistic and neither is the "each part of a multi counts as a cache" rule.

Next question: How long will it take to get the permit once you submit the application?

1k · February 9, 2005

Unfortunately we (NYGO) were under the impression that they were going to use Letchworth Park as the test bed for the new regulations. This is the main reason that negotiations were not more widespread.

I was glad that they allowed us to have some input into the new regulations. The original draft was VERY restrictive. After working with the Park Manager at Letchworth and taking them to several of the caches within that Park, we were able to get them to relax some of the rules.

February 9, 2005

What we need is for someone to approach each of the park managers in our region about getting permission to place a geocache in that park, hopefully someone who has not already placed a lot of caches without permission. Once it has been determined how that individual park manager reacts, how strictly they enforce the twenty foot rule, how they feel about the other caches that are already in place, that should be reported back to this board. That way, those of us who would like to get legal can know that there will be good faith cooperation and have an idea what to expect. Until the water has been tested, most of us are not going to jump in.

3.9k · February 9, 2005

I'm not willing to test the waters until I know that my local park will know what the hell I'm talking about. Maybe I'll send a memo first. I hope there will be a way to do this online so I don't have to spend an hour explaining to some yahoo what geocaching is. I alway feel like such a geek when I have to explain it. Of course, I am geek, but that's besides the point.

Edited February 9, 2005 by JMBella

February 9, 2005

I have 5 caches in three different state parks and until they expired on 12-31-04 had Special Land Use permits for each one. When I tried to renew in December I was told to wait until the new geocaching permits were available and they wouldn't be renewing land use permits for us. Park managers for both Grafton Lake and Moreau Lake parks both said they would contact me when the permits are available.

I have no problem testing the water at Grafton, I only have one cache there and it will be an easy one to move if need be. The ones at Moreau Lake and Saratoga Spa are a horse of a different color and can't be moved, they'll die in place.

I'm only a few minutes from Vermont and Vermont geocaching is looking better and better every day.

Edited February 9, 2005 by Rusty O Junk

Nys Parks & Recreation Survey

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