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A Find Is Not A Find?


superpowerdave

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New guy here, quick question.

 

I haven't been benchmark hunting long, and, well, I really suck at it. Nine times out of ten I don't find what I'm looking for, but normally find something else that puzzles me even more. Anyway, one of the frst ones I actually 'found' was at a train depot here in Anchorage. I read the data sheets, found the actual disc, and then searched for two more that were (to my understanding) in windows sills outside. Not inside, but outside.

 

I was perplexed when I came across a stubby metal painted over rod in each location. I walked around the building several times before deciding that those must be the marks. When I went to log them I wasn't quite sure, so I asked for some advice and was told that yes, sometimes all a surveyor has to use is a length of rebar and that's what he'll use.

 

So I logged them as found.

 

Now just recently I was scrolling through benchmarks I'd found and discovered that what I found was not the marks! The marks, according to the person who came after me and is obviously a lot smarter, found them inside the building, at the gift store no less!

 

I felt horrible because even though I am inept when it comes to finding benchmarks, I want to know that my logs are accurate and that the number of finds are genuine.

 

So A) Is it proper ettiquette to let someone know if they were off when you come along behind them and find that they truly were? And <_< Can I expect to find marks inside of building when the description doesn't say anything to that effect?

 

Marks in question were

 

TT0722 and TT0723.

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We don't know yet that the other person was smarter. They didn't give us a detailed enough report to prove that. And they have only been registered for 3 months. and this was about the 12th benchmark (as opposed to towers etc) they had found.

 

>stubby metal painted over rod

 

That could be the shaft the disk used to be attached to, if someone pried the disk off. "Marker Type: NGS Benchmark" would lead me to expect disks had been originally set, not re-rods.

 

I'd go back and check every part of the description. Is each thing there? Maybe not everything will be as it was in 1975, but often you can tell that a street has been re-worked or a building added on to. Does the distance seem right after making such allowances?

 

At my first reading, I would think the marks should be visible on the outside of the building unless they have enclosed a larger area since 1975. It would be possible a new lobby put one inside next to the the gift shop, but certainly not both of them.

 

AT THE ALASKA RAILROAD STATION, 20.5 FEET NORTH OF THE NORTH CURB OF THE AVENUE

 

Has the avenue been widened? Is 20.5 feet north of the curb at the window sill or inside?

 

, IN THE TOP OF THE CENTER OF THE CONCRETE WINDOW SILL OF THE 6TH WINDOW WEST OF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATION BUILDING,

 

That's pretty specific.

 

75.2 FEET WEST OF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE BUILDING,

 

Also specific. Do these two descriptions seem to be consistent with each other?

 

8 FEET NORTHEAST OF A TOTEM POLE,

 

Is it still there?

 

AND ABOUT 3 1/2 FEET HIGHER THAN THE AVENUE

 

Yes?

 

And what do you see in the vicinity of the gift shop? Disks in window sills? Did somebody move the disks to a new place? Did the other reporter find some other kind of metal disk and mistake it for a benchmark?

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First off, don't feel bad/guilty/inept etc. just because you get stumped by a few. It happens to everybody. (...and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. <_< )

 

I don't know of any particular ettiquette when it comes to mis-logged marks. I don't think it's wrong to point out an incorrect log, but it's not always necessary either. (At least from the 'game' standpoint of benchmark hunting. NGS logs are a different story and should always be corrected.) It would just fall under the category of pointing out a person's mistake to them. Some people would get upset, others would say 'thanks'. I have a similar (but opposite?) situation (two actually) where I've found that marks have been removed (destroyed) and replaced by newer marks, which are not in either the GC.com data base or the national NGS database yet. I decided not to log them as finds (the marks weren't there to find) or destroyed (as the marks have been replaced), but I only posted a note indicating what I found. I figure I could update my notes to finds when the databases are updated. In both cases, other cachers have come by after my visits and logged them as finds, when in fact they cannot be found. I've thought about sending them a note but figured that it's not hurting anyone... no notes have been sent.

 

The two marks you were seeking do not indicate whether they are inside or outside the building. They are only described as being on the sill. That could be in or out, depending on where the sill is. It could be that the windows were originally placed on the inside of the sill (which is common in older buildings), placing the marks outside. If the windows have been replaced to the outside of the sills (the more modern placement) it would have effectively moved the marks inside the building. Marks do occasionally end up inside buildings, for one reason or another. They are rarely placed there intentionally.

 

Hope this helps.

 

- Kewaneh

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Note the line near the top of the page, "Marker Type: NGS Benchmark." This tells you are looking for a National Geodetic Survey bench mark disk. (Usually the word disk will be in there to make it a bit less unambiguous. ) Often you will see other markers such as rebar (with or without a cap on the end), a nail, a church spire, building dome, broacast mast, etc. And occasionally "an unmarked point."

 

Don't be discouraged. After a while you will learn to read the descriptions, which can be very specific and at the same time frustratingly confusing.

 

I also recommend you print out the official NGS datasheet, which includes some info not displayed on the Geocaching page, most of which will perplex you; don't worry about it. Geocaching.com captured a database snapshot about 2-3 years ago, and you can see those datasheets by clicking the link "view original datasheet" near the top of the benchmark page. A better way is to go to the the NGS site, then click on the "datasheets" link just below the banner. You can get the latest updated datasheets there, either individually or by county or county equivalent. You can also search for benchmarks in various ways, including by map (will be very slow if you have a dial-up connection).

 

I wonder if Alaska has a larger percentage of benchmarks above ground level due to snow cover during much of the year.

 

-ArtMan-

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Is it proper ettiquette to let someone know if they were off when you come along behind them and find that they truly were?

If you've found one that others have previously logged as not found or destroyed, why would etiquette keep you from logging it as found, especially if you have photos or a good description of why and where you think you found it?

 

Likewise, if you go to a site and don't find something that someone else previously logged as found, why feel bad about logging it as not found?

 

You might not want to go out of your way to notify previous visitors, but just let the log and your documentation speak for itself.

 

I see from the NGS datasheets that both stations in question were found in good condition in 2002 by our good friends the US Power Squadron. As you will discover, that isn't ironclad proof they ever were or still are there, but it at least adds to the case that they might still be there.

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In the original NGS datasheet no marker type is listed at all, despite what is says on the listing on the Geocaching site. That usually leads me to believe I can be looking for just about anything, but a disk is not among them. Without pictures of the finds from the other benchmarker, nobody can be sure if what HE found was the mark or not.

 

I suspect that if you found two metal rods on the window sills in question, and there weren't similar metal rods on other windowsills, you may have found your marks. It could help to do the measurements to the mark location also.

 

Also, try to pick up TT0721, which IS a benchmark disk near the entrance to the building and appears to be vertically mounted at the door. There is a measurement from THAT disk to one of the marks in question, which would be very helpful, especially when taking the other measurements into account.

 

In short, I think you may have found them, but more research might help. Can you post pics? You can add them to your recovery and link to them here.

 

Matt

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Just to clarify,

 

'NorthWes' posted the exact same line "Found while visiting the AKRR gift shop..." for all "three marks" which makes me wonder if he even found the 'main disk' outside, let alone the other marks in question. So therefore, superpowerdave, I would not even consider his posts as relavant. It also sounds as if you have probably found each one by reading & following thur on the directions. Good job! I would love to see some pictures of each mark & the surrounding areas (including the totum pole if it still exists).

 

This is what you are looking at....

 

1) '945 5920 TIDAL 12' ((the disk) which seems to be the main station mark?)

 

PID TT0721

"1/1/1947 by CGS (MONUMENTED)

1/1/1975 by NGS (GOOD)

DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1975 IN ANCHORAGE. AT ANCHORAGE, 0.1 MILE WEST ALONG WEST 1ST AVENUE FROM THE JUNCTION OF C STREET, AT THE NORTH ENTRANCE TO THE ALASKA RAILROAD STATION, IN THE TOP OF THE WEST END OF THE CONCRETE DOORWAY TO THE TICKET OFFICE, 112.0 FEET WEST OF THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATION BUILDING, 37.0 FEET WEST OF BENCH MARK TIDAL 1 (ARR), 47.9 FEET SOUTH OF THE SOUTH RAIL OF THE MAIN TRACK, AND ABOUT LEVEL WITH THE ASPHALT SURFACE OF A WALKWAY. SEC 18, T 13N, R 3W."

 

2) '0mi W 945 5920 TIDAL 1 AK type not specified' (which we have found can mean almost any kind of mark from something chiseled or inscribed to anything that would fit on that window sill & usually not a disk)

 

PID TT0723

"Unknown by (MONUMENTED)

1/1/1975 by NGS (GOOD)

DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1975 IN ANCHORAGE. AT ANCHORAGE, 0.1 MILE WEST ALONG WEST 1ST AVENUE FROM THE JUNCTION OF C STREET, AT THE ALASKA RAILROAD STATION, 75.0 FEET WEST OF THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATION BUILDING, IN THE TOP OF THE CENTER OF THE CONCRETE SILL OF THE 6TH WINDOW WEST OF THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATION, AND ABOUT 3 FEET HIGHER THAN THE GROUND. SEC 18, T 13N, R 3W."

 

3) '0.1mi W 945 5920 TIDAL 2 AK type not specified' (which again can mean any kind of mark)

 

PID TT0722

"Unknown by (MONUMENTED)

1/1/1975 by NGS (GOOD)

DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1975 IN ANCHORAGE. AT ANCHORAGE, 0.1 MILE WEST ALONG WEST 1ST AVENUE FROM THE JUNCTION OF C STREET, AT THE ALASKA RAILROAD STATION, 20.5 FEET NORTH OF THE NORTH CURB OF THE AVENUE, IN THE TOP OF THE CENTER OF THE CONCRETE WINDOW SILL OF THE 6TH WINDOW WEST OF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE STATION BUILDING, 75.2 FEET WEST OF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE BUILDING, 8 FEET NORTHEAST OF A TOTEM POLE, AND ABOUT 3 1/2 FEET HIGHER THAN THE AVENUE. SEC 18, T 13N, R 3W."

 

Guys, does the TIDAL 1 & TIDAL 2 marks appear to almost be reference marks that actually have their own PID #'s? That's what it appears to me.

 

This is interesting to me, we have found several triangulation stations where the reference marks have been set to such standards that each is a stand-alone mark, with their own PID #'s. But, they are usually 'adjusted' marks.

 

John is at work right now -- so, any feedback on my question would be appreciated greatly <_< .

 

Shirley~

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In the original NGS datasheet no marker type is listed at all, despite what is says on the listing on the Geocaching site. That usually leads me to believe I can be looking for just about anything, but a disk is not among them.

Thank you, Matt, and I sure feel dumb. Apparently the "Marker Type: NGS Benchmark" is a generic placeholder used when there is no Marker info on the datasheet. Another illustration why one should check the actual datasheet.

 

-ArtMan-

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I am willing to bet Superpowerdave found the markers but just didn't know it. The other poster hasn't posted a pic of anything yet, and his posts are a bit vague, so it is hard to tell what he located. Also, nobody spotted the marker that is actually a disk, right by the main entrance door. Is it still there?

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I found the original marker, set in the doorway on the north side of the station. It's in great shape, I'll post the pics. After all of this discussion I've made my decision to revisit the site, see if I can't put an end to the mystery. One thing that has been burning my brain is that he said he found the tidal markers while visiting the gift shop, and I distinctly remember when I was searching for them originally both of those window sills appeared to be the window for an office of some kind.

 

In response to 2OldFarts, yes, the totem pole is still there. I'll post pics tonight, let y'all see what I'm looking at. And thanks for all the helpful advice.

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I read the person who found the marks comments as saying, "On my trip to the gift shop, I found the stations", not necessarily that he found them physically next to the giftshop.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

The USPSQD recovered the marks in 2002. If they were indoors, I believe it would have been noted.

 

-Paul-

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All right-

 

Went back to the station this afternoon, although too late for operating hours which is kind of a bummer. I tried looking at the window sills on the inside from out but couldn't be sure of anything. I snapped photographs of all the marks in question in this particular discussion and have posted them on with my old logs (which were subsequently changed to DNFs.)

 

Since I have not been inside the marks that Northwes was referring to could quite possibly be there and the metal dimples that I found outside are some construction anamoly I'll never understand. But, until I make my way to the station during business hours, I'll remain ignorant.

 

One thing I would like to express though, is that the original questioon in the post has veered slightly off course. This began as a quest for education in the world of benchmarking, and how the society not only treats each other in regards to errors, but also a finer understanding of how to read the data sheet (i.e. inside/outside.)

 

I asked the question on etiquette simply because while the number of finds I have on my list is small, I want to protect the integrity of it. I want it accurate, and I want it honest. If I claim a find on something I want to be absolutely certain I was correct in logging it as a find. And if I do, and someone follows behind me and discovers I had not found what I thought, I'd like to know that as well so that I can do what I am doing now - going back to get it right.

 

All in all, this has been a great discussion for me and I appreciate the words of wisdom and candor that have ensued.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=TT0722

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=TT0723

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=TT0721

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Is it proper ettiquette to let someone know if they were off when you come along behind them and find that they truly were?

 

Good question. Most of us on this website follow the convention used in the NGS database. One recovery team will log NOT FOUND. Another comes along and finds it. Their entry simply reports the successful recovery, along with any updates or clarifications to the description. There is no "nah nah" attitude. Just the facts.

 

Ditto when it goes the other way. It is not uncommon in my area to see that USPSQD recovered a mark in a traffic island, and when I get there six months later, the island is gone (and it DOESN'T look like fresh pavement--grin.) I simply report NOT FOUND with a note about the island having been removed to create a turn lane. End of story.

 

There have been a two exceptions. One was a water tank which was destroyed but Geocachers kept reporting it as found. Their photos showed a new tank about a mile away. I inserted a NOTE that NGS had already classified the tank as destroyed, along with a photo of the new tank captioned, "This is not EZ-xxxx."

 

The other exception also involved a water tank. In this case, USPSQD faithfully reported it as FOUND every year. However, I and one other Geocacher had visited and photographed the foundations. My research into the history of the real estate parcel where it was sited revealed the tank had been removed about 30 years ago. Rather than make an issue, I asked Deb Brown to reclassify it as DESTROYED at NGS so no further reports could be entered.

 

SUMMARY: Report what you find. If you don't find it (or are not sure), post a NOTE giving the details. Using a NOTE rather than DNF encourages others to continue looking, and does not "draw a line in the sand". Frankly, the NOTE feature is something that should be used more often than it presently is.

 

-Paul-

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Those look like rivet heads to me, and my vote would be that you found them. It's not uncommon to set a rivet as a mark. I can't imagine any structural reason for them to be there, especially if no other windowsills except these two have similar objects in them.

 

Nice old train station, too.

 

[edit: or Bolt head]

Edited by holograph
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Can I expect to find marks inside of building when the description doesn't say anything to that effect?

 

These are rare, but SevenThings recently found his SECOND ONE indoors. The original description and a subsequent recovery do not mention that one must look inside the building for the mark. I suspect that this spot was an open porch at one time, with the exterior door being added later to create an "air lock" (to reduce air flow into and out of the building).

 

There was a brief THREAD on the topic about two weeks ago.

 

-Paul-

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Dave,

To follow up on your question about etiquette, I tend to follow Paul's (PFF) quidelines. If I find something different than a previous benchmarker posted I will post my findings, no matter what theirs were. Just like Paul I have had a difference of opinion about some mark, and have stated simply what I found or did not find. I almost always check the statistics of the user to see if they are what I would consider a "serious" benchmarker. If they are I will sometimes email them with my find status, as a courtesy and to see if they might have found something I didn't find, or didn't find something I did find. I would appreciate the same courtesy if another hunter discovered a discrepancy in one of my finds.

 

Matt

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BuckBrooke- I was out that way a few weeks ago, driving down to a ski resort to do some snowboarding and did some snooping on the way back. Didn't look for that one though. I did look for another, from 1912 but I don't recall the PID. It was placed in a boulder, about two feet in diameter and the data sheet said that it should be easy to spot (in 1912) since it was the only boulder in the vicinity. Turns out the railroad wasn't in place at that point because the entire track is built up on rock and boulder all along the shoreline. Needless to say, I didn't find it.

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