Why Is France Not Listed In The Forum Place

[+DGSTRUCH]

Hi,

 

I am a little bit despite not seeing the French flag in the discussion forum and I ask myself WHY? This is not a personally egoistic way of thinking, but I would like to go a little further.

 

Are there so few Geocaching people in France except foreign people almost from the State – they are welcomed :: - or does the French GC not need to communicate, even in English, and bring other people in the nice areas where they are living ?

 

I know we are the French paradox and this doesn’t only concern goose- and duck liver.

 

But I would be very pleased to see that we exist, as a full part of the GC international community,

I would like to know how many we are and from which region or department.

 

I write and ask this because I am an old hiker and have a GPS unit since a long time ago, I’m a 67 years old guy, and I just discover this interesting kind of game and communication two weeks ago in a regional newspaper – thank you Nick –

 

Then is the next question: WHAT IS TO DO TO MAKE IT BETTER?

Do you have any idea?

 

Best regards from Alsace

 

DGS

Edited January 27, 2005 by DGSTRUCH

[+Team BDM]

DGS:

 

I have wondered that as well. There seem to be few caches in southern France. When I was there I used my GPS for navigation, had done only a few caches here in the states and did not elect to do any caching there. I now have several caches on my watch list near Avignon and they get visited only once every few months. It also seems the people who cache in France are from Germany or the Netherlands.

I have corresponded with a cacher from Roquefort, FR, but it was in regards to his log in Eygpt.

I think there must not be that many cachers in France.

I'll be coming back soon and I'll be caching this time!!

 

Bob

[+DGSTRUCH]

Thanks BOB,

for your reply. I think that you unfortunatly have right. Next time you come over, come to Alsace if possible I believe you will get more fun in caching.

 

Daniel

[+º]

I think there aren't so many geocaches in France since there's something very similar:

http://www.cistes.net/

 

Anyway I'm also wondering why there isn't a French Forum ...

[+welch]

Are there so few Geocaching people in France except foreign people almost from the State – they are welcomed :: - or does the French GC not need to communicate, even in English, and bring other people in the nice areas where they are living ?

 

Yes, relatively few

Europe

 

Which as you would exspect means a small number of french speakers visiting the forum. get a bunch of people from there to visit and and keep requesting what you want, maybe it will happen, eventually.

[+habot]

Belgian forum should be an alternative with a France section.

[cezanne]

I am a little bit despite not seeing the French flag in the discussion forum and I ask myself WHY?

 

As the flag is regarded, do not be too disappointed. The Austrian flag is missing as well though we have a higher number of caches than Switzerland does.

 

gc.com does not seem to have a high interest into offering subfora for people who wish to discuss in a language other than English, or who simply wish to discuss topics that concern special regions outside the US. In the case of German and the Nordic forum, I guess that the number of requests has been pretty high as geocaching is popular in those areas already for quite some time. In the case of Spanish I guess that also US-specific reasons might play a role.

 

Then is the next question: WHAT IS TO DO TO MAKE IT BETTER?

 

The most important issue is of course to make geocaching more well known. I like

the geocaching sites I know much more than the cistes site.

 

Another issue would be to have a general forum where all French speaking cachers could meet. In the case such a subforum would exist at this site, also many cachers who are not native speakers of French, but do understand it, would drop in from time to time.

 

There are French speaking geocachers also in Quebec, in the French speaking part of Switzerland (I do not like that Switzerland is uniquely assigned at the moment to the

German speaking forum), the French speaking part of Belgium etc

In all these areas the cache density is smaller than in other regions of those countries. So, the cistes site in France and the language barrier can certainly not be the only reasons. In my point of view (that I expressed already at other places), a subforum for discussions in French is highly needed! It will not be used very much at the beginning, but I guess that the situation will improve in the long run.

 

Cezanne

[+sTeamTraen]

There simply aren't enough cachers in France right now, to keep any forum going. And also the physical gaps between the few cachers that there are, are enormous, so there would be very little in the way of out-of-forum ("real life") chances to meet up; these are generally necessary to keep a virtual community going in the long term.

 

If there were lots of French cachers, we might discuss things here (as the Germans do), or on our own server (as the French do).

 

DGSTRUCH has good enough English to be able to ask his questions here, I think. And he knows he can always send me a mail

 

Nick

[cezanne]

There simply aren't enough cachers in France right now, to keep any forum going.

I disagree, in particular if a French-speaking forum is concerned. Local fora can develop if a community starts to become sufficiently large. For example, there are several fora in Germany, and Austria and Switzerland (unfortunately, however, only the German speaking part) by now also have a seperate one. A common forum here does not need to have much traffic. I am sure that a French-speaking subforum would have much more traffic than for example the Belgian subforum here which is hardly used.

 

I still think that a subforum for French speaking cachers (not restricted to France) would be quite helpful for the further development. Knowing English does not necessarily mean that people want to communicate in English exclusively.

 

There are places where one can reach cachers from different countries that speak English, German, Spanish or some Nordic languages, but such a place does not exist for French speaking cachers which is a bad thing in my point of view.

 

Cezanne

[+habot]

I look at the Belgian forum like a French forum speaking. and it is autorised to write in French or in Dutch in the Belgian forum of Groundspeak. It is only important to speak about geocaching (it does not matter the language used)

I still think that a subforum for French speaking cachers (not restricted to France) would be quite helpful for the further development. Knowing English does not necessarily mean that people want to communicate in English exclusively.

I am enough in agreement with this idea.

Edited January 28, 2005 by habot

[+sTeamTraen]

There simply aren't enough cachers in France right now, to keep any forum going.

I disagree, in particular if a French-speaking forum is concerned.

My guess is that there are no more than 30 active cachers (10 finds in the last 12 months; we're not talking about CCCooperAgency-style numbers) in the whole country. That's out of 60 million people. I'm basing that on the profiles I've seen of people who have found 10 caches in the last year. It really is that small. Quite possibly a lot less than 30. Now work out what percentage of cachers use the forums. We'd be able to hold our annual event in a telephone box.

 

There are all kinds of reasons why this might be so, and I've already given many of them in various forums here, multiple times. Don't make me post my archives again

 

Even in Alsace, which is right next door to Germany - so at least I have plenty of unfound caches within 50-60km - there are exactly five cachers signed up with GC.com. Apart from me, the four others have 5, 2, 2, and zero cache finds. And this is in the most un-French (sorry DGS!!) part of France.

 

I'd love to be proved wrong on this. Does anyone know how to do a query of the GC.com database to generate profiles based on home location ?

 

By the way, as I already suggested a few months ago, we could all agree to meet up in the geocaching.be French-speaking section. I believe there is a topic for France there. (Faut dire aussi qu'en Belgique, la différence de popularité du GC entre les parties "Flamandique" et "Walloniennes" est assez marquée.)

Edited January 28, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[cezanne]

By the way, as I already suggested a few months ago, we could all agree to meet up in the geocaching.be French-speaking section. I believe there is a topic for France there.

There is a section for French speaking Belgians as far as I know, not one specifically devoted to France.

 

Why should it make sense to meet on the forum of geocaching.be? I am not only talking about France. There are also cachers in Quebec (their number is increasing) and in the French speaking part of Switzerland. (Assigning Switzerland to German speaking as it is done now, excludes part of the Swiss community.)

 

Moreover, as long as the community is small it makes more sense to have the discussions at a place where also cachers from other regions that might join in are present. There are quite some cachers around here who are able to read and write in French though this not their native language.

 

Cezanne

[+sTeamTraen]

FWIW, I also requested the creation of a "France" section on this site, several months ago. And I didn't get a reply.

 

Believe me, DGSTRUCH is only the third French resident to be seen on here in the past year. Romary (member of this team) contributed a couple of entries about six months ago. The community really is that small.

 

Since this forum is called "All Nations", I don't think there would be major objections if we posted in French here from time to time.

[cezanne]

Believe me, DGSTRUCH is only the third French resident to be seen on here in the past year.  Romary (member of this team) contributed a couple of entries about six months ago.  The community really is that small.

 

Yes, I know that the number of French cachers is small. I have followed the situation since quite some time, and I even had contacts with some French cachers (for example, the inventor of the Géolutins). You forgot, however, to mention the guy who announced the many touristic caches in Doubs some time ago. On the other hand, it does not play a role whether we are talking about 3 or 4 or 5 persons.

 

Have you, however, checked the caches around Lausanne, Geneve etc? There are less than in the German speaking part of Switzerland, but there is certainly some activity going on there recently. The same is true for Quebec and Wallonia.

 

As the specific situation in France is regarded:

When I started caching, there were way less than 50 caches in total in Austria. At that time a single Austrian was sometimes posting here. I well remember that together with a friend I have hidden a cache that happened to be at that time the 100-th active cache in Austria. Now we have almost 750 active ones. Have a look at

rockus.geocaching.org

to see the dramatic growth rates both as the number of hidden and the number of

found caches is regarded.

 

In the early stage of geocaching in a country, newspaper articles and TV programs play an important role. People need to get to know geocaching. There are certainly people in France who already have a GPS and would be interested into caching, but have never heard about it. The situation in France in this regard is difficult for journalists since there is no French geocaching site available. Both in Germany and later in Austria, journalists who wished to report on geocaching typically contacted local geocachers via national geocaching sites, or at least sites available in German.

 

Since this forum is called "All Nations", I don't think there would be major objections if we posted in French here from time to time.

 

Of course not, but the postings here have the tendency to get lost among the other ones. Some cachers from Quebec also tried to write in French in the Canada forum, but it did not work out very well.

 

BTW: I find it very disappointing (but not surprising) that you did not receive a response to your question concerning a forum for France.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited January 28, 2005 by cezanne

[+welch]

There simply aren't enough cachers in France right now, to keep any forum going.

I disagree, in particular if a French-speaking forum is concerned. Local fora can develop if a community starts to become sufficiently large. For example, there are several fora in Germany, and Austria and Switzerland (unfortunately, however, only the German speaking part) by now also have a seperate one. A common forum here does not need to have much traffic. I am sure that a French-speaking subforum would have much more traffic than for example the Belgian subforum here which is hardly used.

 

I still think that a subforum for French speaking cachers (not restricted to France) would be quite helpful for the further development. Knowing English does not necessarily mean that people want to communicate in English exclusively.

 

There are places where one can reach cachers from different countries that speak English, German, Spanish or some Nordic languages, but such a place does not exist for French speaking cachers which is a bad thing in my point of view.

 

Cezanne

so what are you saying?

There should be a forum anyways, even though there seem to be few would use it?

There should be a forum, and it will attract users?

or There are enough people to make a forum, but their notice noticed because they're posting in English currently?

[+DGSTRUCH]

 

Hi,

I didn’t believe to start such a discussion and so quick by posting my questions here only few days ago.

Firstly I thank all the GC people who hold it for right to bring their own meaning.

 

After reading all what you write, I think that it is not really important to communicate in English, but I keep it as wrong to give no chance -on an easy way – to people they only used de French language. Therefore the French flag should only be a mark for this possibility.

 

The GC site in Belgium I firstly went to was only in Dutch.

“Ik kan ook en beetje Vlaams en ABN spreken en lezen, maar... “ now we know that it is also possible to go on in French. Thank’ you HABOT.

 

The very really pity is that they are so few French GC-members. I don’t think to be wrong saying that it is because the big majority of French people don’t have any idea about this activity, even if they own a GPS unit.

 

I visited the site www.cistes.net/ -which is for sale at the moment (?!) - I don’t want to start a new discussion about it. But I notice it’s in French and in English, that they could have a lot of more than 100 members (couldn’t get this statistic) and at least 5.333 caches only in France. I went then on their “revue de presse” page and I checked 14 reports and interviews as well in the newspapers as at the TV within the two last years!!!

This last could be the response to their success concerning to their membership’s number.

 

DGS

[cezanne]

so what are you saying?

There should be a forum anyways, even though there seem to be few would use it?

There should be a forum, and it will attract users?

There should be a forum on gc.com dedicated to posting in French, but not one exclusively for France (as long as the traffic is not very high it makes no sense to split with regard to countries). France should of course be listed as one of the countries there.

 

There are French speaking areas where the number of geocachers is already higher than in France, still they have no decent way of posting here in French.

 

At the beginning not many French cachers (meaning really French, not French speaking) will use the forum since there first geocaching has to become more well known. The same situation was true two years ago in Austria. I am however, sure that the French-speaking forum would have much more traffic than some other subfora that do exist. French is one of the big languages of this world.

 

Cezanne

[+welch]

very well.

any idea if any of the other requests had an offical reason for being turned down?

 

I started a new request, maybe it will get an answer this week?

[+boulist44]

There are many members of the French "Ciste" caching family, I am one of them, however there is a massive fundamental difference, they don't use a GPS. it's all done by research of knowledge to solve an enigma and eventually find a cache. consequently they have no reason to get involved with Geocaching or it's Forum.

As I've said before on this forum, Geocaching in my region "Loire Atlantique" is very seasonal due to invading tourists during the summer months. but the caches are still out there waiting to be found.

However is the lack of the French Tricolour due to the fact that we are not awash with cachers or is it more to do with politics?

[cezanne]

There are many members of the French "Ciste" caching family, I am one of them, however there is a massive fundamental difference, they don't use a GPS. it's all done by research of knowledge to solve an enigma and eventually find a cache. consequently they have no reason to get involved with Geocaching or it's Forum.

There are many caches around that can be found without a GPS and I even know cachers who have hidden caches without using a GPS. Many geocachers I know of (including myself) do not put a high value into the GPS aspect, the hunt itself, a nice hike/walk, getting to see new places and solving puzzles on the way are of higher importance to them too.

 

The topic cistes does not really belong into this thread, but I am really wondering about the reason why the cistes site became rather popular in France. I had a look at it some time ago and was very disappointed. I even feel that some of the restrictions set on gc.com for caches are too strict, but the owner of the cistes site puts even more stringent restrictions on the placement of caches. Moreover, using the site is complicated and annoying (at least to me). You have to register for every single ciste in order to get its description and the page then shows your name in the list of people who have ordered the description.

The only advantage from the point of view of a French person might be that the language of the site is French.

 

Cezanne

[+DGSTRUCH]

very well.

any idea if any of the other requests had an offical reason for being turned down?

 

I started a new request, maybe it will get an answer this week?

I started a new request, maybe it will get an answer this week?

 

Hi

 

As I already wrote I was not at all in idea to make such a big “affair” with my question. Sorry about it!

 

I have seen that the request of WELCH (1.20.2005) stay still without reply. We say in France no answer is also an answer, and we say to that they are never stupid answers, only stupid questions!

Therefore I must take as right that my question was a stupid one. I agree.

 

But going from the fact that the English language seem to be the basic language for Geocaching, I have another silly question in my store:

 

Why is there a special forum for the UK ?

 

I don’t want to start herewith a new polemic, and don’t wait as well for any response.

 

However is the lack of the French Tricolour due to the fact that we are not awash with cachers or is it more to do with politics?

 

The question may be right. But when I read taht the word “politic” is used in an intervention when speaking about a game , the old men think that it is high time to close the discussion. Polic is one of the best ways to start in a dispute and don't want this.

 

I just would like that the people, who have the thing in their hands, would have a thought to every people, kids and girls which can only speak French (not only in France) and why they should be take apart.

 

The last one, please: Is that an INTERNATIONAL GAME or not?

 

Thanks again everybody and

“Wait and see”

 

Daniel G. SCHMITT (DGSTRUCH)

[+BalkanSabranje]

I have seen that the request of WELCH (1.20.2005) stay still without reply. We say in France no answer is also an answer, and we say to that they are never stupid answers, only stupid questions!

Therefore I must take as right that my question was a stupid one. I agree.

Not getting an answer from TPTB/Jeremy is not unusual (at least not if you're from Europe). Take it easy.

 

I just would like that the people, who have the thing in their hands, would have a thought to every people, kids and girls which can only speak French (not only in France) and why they should be take apart.

J'aimerais mieux penser d'un forum qui s'appele "French Speaking", un titre qui pourrait peut-etre encourager non seul les francais et tous les outres qui ont le Francais comme premiere langue, mais aussi tous les autres interesses en discussions menees en francais (je suis assez sure qu'il y a au moins 5 cachers en Autriche interesse dans une discussion en francais).

 

Pardonnez mon francais et le manque d'acconts, s.v.p.

 

BS/2

[+habot]

It's another way ...

 

French speaking for France, Belgique, Suisse, Luxembourg,....

Ductch speaking for Netherlands, Belgïe, ....

German speaking for Germany, Letzebuërg, Belgium,...

 

... and for all those which wishes it

[+DGSTRUCH]

It's another way ...

 

French speaking for France, Belgique, Suisse, Luxembourg,....

Ductch speaking for Netherlands, Belgïe, ....

German speaking for Germany, Letzebuërg, Belgium,...

 

... and for all those which wishes it 

... alors on ajoute le Wallon, hin m'fi !

 

 

Daniel

[+habot]

Les wallons mon ami, les

[+welch]

what is a wallon??

[cezanne]

what is a wallon??

It is the same word "Wallon" in English. How would you explain the term?

 

Probably roughly the (native) inhabitants of Wallonia, the French speaking part of Belgium (in contrast to Flanders where Flemish/Dutch dominates and to the capital Brussels which is a bilingual province), but this attempt is also not quite correct as there certainly also live Flemish people in Wallonia. Perhaps, it would be better to say people with mother tongue French living in Wallonia or whatever. I guess habot will be able to explain it better.

 

Cezanne

Edited February 21, 2005 by cezanne

[+DGSTRUCH]

what is a wallon??

Hi

Wallon is an old roman dialect which is spoken in the South and South-East part of Belgium. One can say there are approximately as many Wallon idioms as they are towns in this part of Belgium.

Some Belgian people say it’s a language that no good luck had.

May be the same will happen to the French language.

Anyway, it was just a joke between Habot and me

 

Thanks for the question

Daniel

[+habot]

Belgium is a very small country. It is divided into three areas: Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia and three community: Flemish, French and German-speaking community. Three languages there are spoken. In Flanders, one speaks Flemish (Dutch), in Brussels Flemish and French and in Wallonia, the French and German.

 

a small drawing will help you better

 

Until here, all is good but the "old hand" of each area speaks also their own dialect (Flemish, French and certainly German) and when nobody any more understands, it is that one speaks "Belgian"

 

As said DGSTRUCH : Wallon is an old roman dialect...

Therefore, small country, three areas, three community, three languages and too many dialects and not enough caches.

[cezanne]

 

Belgium is a very small country. It is divided into three areas: Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia and three community: Flemish, French and German-speaking community. Three languages there are spoken. In Flanders, one speaks Flemish (Dutch), in Brussels Flemish and French and in Wallonia, the French and German.

 

Until that point also my knowledge sufficed, but I had troubles to define what's a Wallon

in a correct way (the person, not the language/dialect). Does a member of the German speaking minority in Wallonia regard itself as a Wallon? This is the point I was not sure about.

 

Until here, all is good but the "old hand" of each area speaks also their own dialect (Flemish, French and certainly German) and when nobody any more understands, it is that one speaks "Belgian"   

 

But still there exist examples where I prefer the "Belgian version of French". Nonante-quatre is much easier to understand for a foreigner who is in a rush and needs to ask for the tram to take than quatre-vingts-quatorze [].

 

Therefore, small country, three areas, three community, three languages and too many dialects  and not enough caches.

 

There do not seem to exist that few in Flanders and Brussels, or tp you mean too few for you because you have found all near you? [] The situation seems to be similar to the one in Switzerland where the number of caches in the German speaking part is much higher than in the French speaking part, not to speak of the other two language areas. An area at gc.com dedicated to French-speaking cachers would at least be a signal for them.

 

 

Cezanne

[+habot]

... but I had troubles to define what's a Wallon

in a correct way (the person, not the language/dialect)

Both.

The Walloon is a dialect

A Walloon lives in wallonia area

[+DGSTRUCH]

 

Belgium is a very small country. It is divided into three areas: Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia and three community: Flemish, French and German-speaking community. Three languages there are spoken. In Flanders, one speaks Flemish (Dutch), in Brussels Flemish and French and in Wallonia, the French and German.

 

Until that point also my knowledge sufficed, but I had troubles to define what's a Wallon

in a correct way (the person, not the language/dialect). Does a member of the German speaking minority in Wallonia regard itself as a Wallon? This is the point I was not sure about.

 

Until here, all is good but the "old hand" of each area speaks also their own dialect (Flemish, French and certainly German) and when nobody any more understands, it is that one speaks "Belgian"   

 

But still there exist examples where I prefer the "Belgian version of French". Nonante-quatre is much easier to understand for a foreigner who is in a rush and needs to ask for the tram to take than quatre-vingts-quatorze [].

 

Therefore, small country, three areas, three community, three languages and too many dialects  and not enough caches.

 

There do not seem to exist that few in Flanders and Brussels, or tp you mean too few for you because you have found all near you? [] The situation seems to be similar to the one in Switzerland where the number of caches in the German speaking part is much higher than in the French speaking part, not to speak of the other two language areas. An area at gc.com dedicated to French-speaking cachers would at least be a signal for them.

 

 

Cezanne

Well seen, you got it!

 

But why do they say “quatre-vingt-deux” instead of “octante-deux”?

 

But the more fun (I think and already self paid for it) happens between the roman languages and the Germanic especially with regards on the phone numbers.

One put the ten parts (dizaines) in front of the number, and the others after.

So then when you hear and have to note 25.63.78 … each one wrights straight 52.36.87 … isn’t?

 

Never mind! We are going to speak soon Franco-Belge, or Belgo-Français with quite a lot of Anglo-Saxon words in-between.

 

Have a nice day

[+sTeamTraen]

Never mind! We are going to speak soon Franco-Belge, or Belgo-Français with quite a lot of Anglo-Saxon words in-between.

Be careful - the term "Anglo-Saxon" means one of two things:

 

1. As used by French (and other Francophone ?) people, it's a generally pejorative term meaning "British/American/the part of Canada we never got our hands on/etc", generally coupled with criticism of "Ultra-Liberalisme" (for example, the idea that if you go on strike you shouldn't get paid), or US foreign policy, or Bill Gates.

 

2. As used by English speakers, "Anglo-Saxon words" means a selection of short words which you can't say on American network television

 

The Anglo-Saxons were one of the main inhabitants of the British Isles from about the 6th to the 11th century (approx). Apart from that, the term has no meaning for anyone in the "monde Anglo-Saxon". The term itself is used about 100 times more by the French than the "Anglo-Saxons" themselves (a bit like "a camping" or "a parking" or "le footing" )

[+DGSTRUCH]

Be careful - the term "Anglo-Saxon" means one of two things:

 

Mea culpa!

 

I’m sorry for having used this term, but I must say that I didn’t know all the meaning of it. I just know it as a language spoken by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (V – VI s) and as a specific writing and to designate the nations who live there in that time.

 

I apologize if somebody was hurt!

 

My meaning was only the English (UK USA Canada) language which is already quite present in usual and technical French. I don’t believe to that it’s taken as a generally pejorative term about the English speaking people. I mean it is wrong, we have a lot of other gentle birds name instead of Anglo-Saxon!

 

Hey! What I know is that the people who live in these countries have plenty of very peculiars locutions for calling themselves, or the others, but I don’t think that it’s the right place to speak about them.

 

Anyway, as we don’t have the very possibility for speaking French in this forum, all the others should be kind when we try to communicate in their language for their own facilities.

 

Everything all right?

 

Kindly yours,

 

Daniel

[+BlueDeuce]

I just skimmed the threads so I might have missed the suggestion, but perhaps you could at least open a French thread here?

 

There are regional forums that have threads for people who speak San Francisco and San Diego. It would be better than nothing, and it could lead to a forum.

 

Just a thought.

[+welch]

what is a wallon??

It is the same word "Wallon" in English. How would you explain the term?

 

I wouldn't . I'd never heard the word before, and babelfish (terriable I know) never attempted to translate it.

thank you both for explaing it

[+Cornix]

I'd never heard the word [Wallon] before ...

That's funny. Your name has the same root (wal/wel). It means Romanic/French (speaking) and 'not Germanic' in a wider sense.

 

So Valais, Wallis, Wallonie, Wales are simply names for regions where non-Germanic tribes were living.

 

Cornix

 

Addendum: this article may be of interest for you

 

WHAT'S IN A NAME

Are you called WALLACE?

Variations: Wallis, Walsh, Welch etc.

 

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Names...al/Wallace.html

Edited March 2, 2005 by Cornix

[+sTeamTraen]

Be careful - the term "Anglo-Saxon" means one of two things:

 

Mea culpa!

Pas grave, les "Anglo-Saxons" habitant en France en sont habitués

 

The name of the language is indeed the basis of the term. It influences modern English more in its vocabulary than its grammar. Half the words in English are of Saxon origin, including "Half", "words", and "English" . And "and" ! But as far as I know, not "of" (which I think is of Scandinavian origin). Or "entrepreneur" (ask George W)

Edited March 5, 2005 by sTeamTraen