Cotm

[60North]

Mmm, 50 points for hiding a cache - at last a use for those 65 film containers!!

[+Seasider]

Ok....

 

UK Cache find = 10 points

UK Cache Hide = 20 points

Travel Bug Moved = 5 points

Travel Bug Released = 20 points

Trigpoint logged = 5 points

 

Foreign caches = 0

Travel Bugs not moved = 0

 

I agree with Slytherin that UK cacher of the month, to retain an even playing field, should include UK caches only (sorry P&T)! According to sources, it is possible to do 200+ caches in a day in Florida (as just one example) which gives a grossly unfair advantage over cachers in the UK who cache under UK cache density & geographic conditions. UK Cacher of the Month should relate to UK activity only.....plus the IOM & Ireland!!

 

Also, I think TB logging has got out of hand. I don't agree that picking bugs up off a table at a meet or finding bugs and taking them to a meet, for example, is equivalent to the effort of finding caches. Ditto with raiding a TB hotel or other cache which you have already found just to pick up a TB. The only effort in moving a TB is remembering to bring it with you on your next outing. It then gets left in a cache after you've taken all the effort to find the cache! They are incidental to caching and should be scored accordingly.

 

Think of it in these terms.....which cacher should score higher....

 

Cacher A who has found say 49 caches and 0 TBs or

Cacher B who has found 20 caches but has been to a couple of meets to pick up/dump bugs and has raided a bug hotel along the way for little effort to claim 30TBs?

 

COTM should be scored so that the person who finds & releases the most caches and releases the most TBs (which does involve effort) beats a mere bug hunter!

 

5 points I say... and that's being generous!

 

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

[SlytherinAlex]

COTM should be scored so that the person who finds & releases the most caches and releases the most TBs (which does involve effort) beats a mere bug hunter!

If that doesn't sum up the whole thing, then nothing does. Although I would push for caches hidden to be worth at least 30.

 

I can see a poll coming on.

[+Seasider]

Yep, 30 seems fairer on reflection.

 

Definitely calls for another one of Deego's polls... more, more!!

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

[+Firth of Forth]

I agree with Slytherin that UK cacher of the month, to retain an even playing field, should include UK caches only (sorry P&T)! According to sources, it is possible to do 200+ caches in a day in Florida (as just one example) which gives a grossly unfair advantage over cachers in the UK who cache under UK cache density & geographic conditions. UK Cacher of the Month should relate to UK activity only.....plus the IOM & Ireland!!

 

Just to complicate things further.....if you follow the logic of this argument, then us Scottish cachers could argue that the much lower cache density North of the border (just have a look at the map of Scotland) puts us at a severe disadvantage, compared say to a Londoner who could pick up 30 or 40 caches in a day.

 

For that reason, I really cant see why it matters where the caches are found - it's still a cache listed on the g.com website, however long it took to walk to and find.

[+minstrelcat]

Please leave trigs on COTM! We only tend to find around 50% of the trigs we attempt due to them either being inaccessible (e.g. on private land) or just plain gone, whereas we find about 95% of the caches we attempt.

 

We know that when we set out to find a cache it is physically possible to reach it as someone (the placer) has been there before, but trigs can be a complete mystery and we sometimes have to make more than one attempt at them from different directions.

 

So I'd say caches were easier in a way!

 

Lisa

[SlytherinAlex]

compared say to a Londoner who could pick up 30 or 40 caches in a day....

But have you seen the traffic in London??? That deserves double points.

[+Seasider]

Just to complicate things further.....if you follow the logic of this argument, then us Scottish cachers could argue that the much lower cache density North of the border (just have a look at the map of Scotland) puts us at a severe disadvantage, compared say to a Londoner who could pick up 30 or 40 caches in a day.

 

For that reason, I really cant see why it matters where the caches are found - it's still a cache listed on the g.com website, however long it took to walk to and find.

Cachers who live in more cache dense areas do have the advantage but no single cacher has an advantage which they would have if they went to the US or Stockholm/Gothenburg. It stops someone going on holiday to a cache rich area and gaining an advantage over everyonelse who has to make do with local conditions.

 

The title is UK cacher of the month and if you allowed foreign caches then surely you must allow foreign cachers as well and the table becomes unmanageable. The boundary must be UK for cachers & caches.

 

In any case if you are short of caches in Scotland then you could always log a few trigpoints.........ducks for cover...... !

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

[+Happy Humphrey]

UK activity only.....plus the IOM & Ireland

Thanks for thinking of us lot, Seasider!

 

I agree mostly...although I enjoy caching in France and Germany, and it'll be a bummer if I have to exclude those hard-won caches from my totals (should I get round to entering!). I think we ought to ignore national boundaries: it's only a game, isn't it? If you did 50 caches in a day it's still a fine bit of caching even if they were all inside one square mile.

 

HH

[+Firth of Forth]

The title is UK cacher of the month and if you allowed foreign caches then surely you must allow foreign cachers as well and the table becomes unmanageable. The boundary must be UK for cachers & caches.

 

In any case if you are short of caches in Scotland then you could always log a few trigpoints.........ducks for cover......         !

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

I agree with others that it's up to Deego what the table is about - but if it's a table for UK cachers to represent their caching exploits, then it excludes foreign based cachers, but does not necessarily have to exclude foreign caches.

 

Lots of trigpoints up here - trouble is, many of them are on top of hills or mountains!

Edited January 27, 2005 by Firth of Forth

[Deego]

My head really hurts now

 

Bugs want to be moved but Bug hunting is bad

 

A cache is a cache unless its not a UK cache

 

trigpoints are easy unless there hard to find/get to

 

So the only thing thats agreed on is that I was stingy with the caches hiden points and the traffic sucks in london

 

I will sleep on this, maybe we can discuss it over a beer at the NW meet and will have the rules for 2005 done by Monday. Then people can decide if they want to enter or not

Edited January 27, 2005 by Deego

[+Seasider]

I will sleep on this, maybe we can discuss it over a beer at the NW meet...

Up ferret!

 

What ever you decide I'll certainly be entering this month - managed to find a bit of time at last and will make the most of it while I can!

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

[+Pharisee]

Brian.... just leave it as it is, mate.

 

It's obvious from all the above postings that you are never, EVER going to satisfy everyone. As for complicated sliding scales that take in terrain and difficulty and then apply a correction factor for any physical (and dare I suggest it... mental) disablity........ What are they going to do? Send you a doctor's sick note?

 

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life....

 

You've been running the COTM for the last year and it's been a success. More and more people submit their totals each month and hopefully that will continue. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." applies to COTM just as much as it does to anything else.

 

The more time you spend attempting to accommodate everyone's wishes, the less time you'll have to spend actually out there finding lunch boxes. Which reminds me.... Got a spare Saturday next month ???

[+Firth of Forth]

Brian.... just leave it as it is, mate.

 

It's obvious from all the above postings that you are never, EVER going to satisfy everyone. As for complicated sliding scales that take in terrain and difficulty and then apply a correction factor for any physical (and dare I suggest it... mental) disablity........ What are they going to do? Send you a doctor's sick note?

 

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life....

 

You've been running the COTM for the last year and it's been a success. More and more people submit their totals each month and hopefully that will continue. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." applies to COTM just as much as it does to anything else.

 

The more time you spend attempting to accommodate everyone's wishes, the less time you'll have to spend actually out there finding lunch boxes. Which reminds me.... Got a spare Saturday next month ???

Couldn't have said it better!!

[+mongoose39uk]

Brian.... just leave it as it is, mate.

 

It's obvious from all the above postings that you are never, EVER going to satisfy everyone. As for complicated sliding scales that take in terrain and difficulty and then apply a correction factor for any physical (and dare I suggest it... mental) disablity........    What are they going to do? Send you a doctor's sick note? 

 

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life.... 

 

You've been running the COTM for the last year and it's been a success. More and more people submit their totals each month and hopefully that will continue. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." applies to COTM just as much as it does to anything else.

 

The more time you spend attempting to accommodate everyone's wishes, the less time you'll have to spend actually out there finding lunch boxes. Which reminds me.... Got a spare Saturday next month ???

Have to agree. Just leave it as it is.

 

If people don't like it they don't have to enter.

 

Tony

[+Seasider]

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life.... 

 

Of course but I don't see why that should preclude discussion about it!

 

Football is a game, for instance, but the back pages would be empty if everyone took it for what it really was. The way all games and pastimes have evolved over time has involved discussion over how it is played.

 

Poker is just a game but you can play it many ways and it is healthy to discuss just which variation you prefer. That's all that is happening here, nowt wrong with that and that's what....er...forums are for!

 

The argument that something should not be discussed because it ain't important isn't a valid one, old chum!

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

Edited January 27, 2005 by Seasider

[SlytherinAlex]

Rules are for tweaking. That what makes them such fun.

 

Seriously, I think there is a large enough concensus for disussion of a SLIGHT shifting of the way that points are allocated.

 

Nothing drastic, no sliding scale of difficulty. If you want that then Terracching is for you.

 

But a gentle tweak here and there. Brian has already said that this will be discussed at the NW meet at the weekend. Let's see what HE decides after that.

 

-

[+Pharisee]

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life.... 

 

Of course but I don't see why that should preclude discussion about it...............

 

..................The argument that something should not be discussed because it ain't important isn't a valid one, old chum!

 

Cheers!

 

Seasider

I thought that's what I was doing, John. Just adding my two penn'th to the discussion.

[Deego]

But if it was football and they changed the rules that a shot from ouside the box was worth 1.5 goals and one from inside the 6 yard box was only worth half a goal. would that be better or worse ?

 

ps I am not saying trigpoints are like a shot from the six yard box

 

Yes John (Pharisee) I am sure I can find a free sat to do some "power" caching with You . Oh hold on, If there is two of us should we only get half points as it should be a bit easier

[+The Hokesters]

But if it was football and they changed the rules that a shot from ouside the box was worth 1.5 goals and one from inside the 6 yard box was only worth half a goal. would that be better or worse ? :unsure:

Yeah but you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be at least one discussion every 5pm on Saturday that that shot was "outside the box", "no inside the box", "no outside the box!"

 

So is your trig inside or outside the box - I would like to say you decide but fear that there would be thirty or so people wanting to discuss whether you are right or not

[+Pharisee]

Yes John (Pharisee) I am sure I can find a free sat to do some "power" caching with You . Oh hold on, If there is two of us should we only get half points as it should be a bit easier :unsure:

If we can persuade the other member of the unholy trinity to come along, we'll probably get no points at all as he'd have rushed off and found the box before we've even got our back-packs on. We can just amble up and sign the log book. It's even easier than trig-pointing

[+Kitty Hawk]

The London/Oxford concern - if anyone goes to those cities they could get, say 20 or 30 at a push done, but that'll be it - a one off boost to the score for a month. Anyone could go to London for a days caching, but there are only a few who would - there are other things to do.

 

People who live there, have a one off advantage, which then becomes a massive disadvantage as they have to make their way out of town for every cache.

 

Adrian

 

I'm with Pharisee and Mongoose39. It's more important for Brian to enjoy doing the table than tweak the rules.

[+Mad H@ter]

The London/Oxford concern - if anyone goes to those cities they could get, say 20 or 30 at a push done, but that'll be it - a one off boost to the score for a month.  Anyone could go to London for a days caching, but there are only a few who would - there are other things to do.

 

People who live there, have a one off advantage, which then becomes a massive disadvantage as they have to make their way out of town for every cache. 

 

Adrian

 

I'm with Pharisee and Mongoose39. It's more important for Brian to enjoy doing the table than tweak the rules.

Another disadvantage of living there is that you may be the one who set many of the caches, precluding you from hunting them

[+Mad H@ter]

No great problem with the scoring system but if it were to change I would suggest the following:

 

Cache found - 10

Cache placed - 25

Trigpoint - 10

Travel bug moved - 10

Travel bug logged - 0

Travel bug released - 10

[+The Forester]

In any case if you are short of caches in Scotland then you could always log a few trigpoints.

We're not at all short of caches here in Scotland. In fact, there's a school of thought that perhaps central Edinburgh is getting close to saturation point. There are also lots of lovely rural ones, some of which are a significant challenge.

 

Surely caches bagged overseas should be equivalent for COTM purposes to UK ones? After all, somewhere like France makes it more difficult, not less, than finding large numbers of caches in the UK.

 

For example, there are 48 caches within 10km of central Edinburgh, but only 17 within 10km of central Paris.

 

Surely also, placing a cache overseas is more challenging than placing one locally to one's home as there are factors such as linguistic differences and maintenenace issues which need to be addressed. Furthermore, geocaching in general can be greatly enhanced by placement of caches in countries which have few or no caches yet. For example, a couple of well placed caches in Byelorussia would be a challenge and might seed interest in the sport/game/hobby in that country.

 

Concur with the comment about trigpointing as an adjunct to caching. Perhaps extra points for FtF? After all, there's usually a reason why a trigpillar has not yet been bagged:-- such as difficult terrain or difficulty of obtaining access.

 

Cheers, The Forester

[60North]

No problem bagging trigs here in Shetland as there is no law of trespass

 

To make up for it we have soggy peat which you will disappear up to your ankles in, no trees for cover, puddles atop of hills that are as deep as you are tall, wind and rain and hail and sleet and snow.

 

If anyone thinks trigpointing is easy come and meet me here

Edited January 27, 2005 by 60North

[SlytherinAlex]

No problem bagging trigs here in Shetland as there is no law of trespass 

 

To make up for it we have soggy peat which you will disappear up to your ankles in, no trees for cover, puddles atop of hills that are as deep as you are tall, wind and rain and hail and sleet and snow.

 

If anyone thinks trigpointing is easy come and meet me here 

I wonder what the rules are for trigpointing? Do you actually have to touch it?

 

What if you can read the number off the plate with high power binoculars?

Edited January 27, 2005 by SlytherinAlex

[60North]

I wonder what the rules are for trigpointing? Do you actually have to touch it?

 

What if you can read the number off the plate with high power binoculars?

Too windy too use high powered binoculars here, and no trees to steady yourself against

[+Kitty Hawk]

I wonder what the rules are for trigpointing?  Do you actually have to touch it?

 

What if you can read the number off the plate with high power binoculars?   

Forget binoculars, the numbers are on the website usually. If you want to cheat then you can.

 

EDIT - that is, if you want to cheat you are able, but obviously you wouldn't. The active trigpointing community is too small to become a pariah.

Edited January 27, 2005 by Kitty Hawk

[+minstrelcat]

No problem bagging trigs here in Shetland as there is no law of trespass 

 

To make up for it we have soggy peat which you will disappear up to your ankles in, no trees for cover, puddles atop of hills that are as deep as you are tall, wind and rain and hail and sleet and snow.

 

If anyone thinks trigpointing is easy come and meet me here 

I can verify trigpointing in Shetland is hard work and we went for the easier ones!

 

Although there was one we managed to park the car right next to...

 

Lisa

Edited January 27, 2005 by minstrelcat

[+Pengy&Tigger]

I have tried to keep quiet on the subject of foreign caches, as I didn't want to be accused of being biased. However it looks as though others are just as biased the other way, so there are a few points I'd like to make.

 

1) Not all foreign caches are in cache rich areas.

2) While someone is overseas, they cannot find UK caches, and that cacher is automatically at a disadvantage if we don't allow foreign caches.

3) Not everyone goes on holiday to specifically find caches. Most of us just happen to cache while we are there, and no more than we would have at home. The number we found in the US could easily have been bagged in the UK over the 3 weekends we were away.

 

T

[+The Forester]

no trees to steady yourself against

Nearly all of Shetland's trees are to be found in Bergen!

[Deego]

ALL caches found will count towards cacher of the month

 

Just thought I would clear that one up now :unsure:

 

I could not cope with the influx if everybody was allowed to enter. Thats why its for UK based cachers.

 

1 problem down only 3 to go

 

Brian

Edited January 27, 2005 by Deego

[+Firth of Forth]

ALL caches found will count towards cacher of the month

 

Just thought I would clear that one up now

 

Oh good! Now I can plan a trip to Gothenburg!!

[+Alibags]

Brian.... just leave it as it is, mate.

 

It's obvious from all the above postings that you are never, EVER going to satisfy everyone. As for complicated sliding scales that take in terrain and difficulty and then apply a correction factor for any physical (and dare I suggest it... mental) disablity........ What are they going to do? Send you a doctor's sick note?

 

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life....

 

You've been running the COTM for the last year and it's been a success. More and more people submit their totals each month and hopefully that will continue. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." applies to COTM just as much as it does to anything else.

 

The more time you spend attempting to accommodate everyone's wishes, the less time you'll have to spend actually out there finding lunch boxes. Which reminds me.... Got a spare Saturday next month ???

and I also agree with Pharisee on this one.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Brian.... just leave it as it is, mate.

 

It's obvious from all the above postings that you are never, EVER going to satisfy everyone. As for complicated sliding scales that take in terrain and difficulty and then apply a correction factor for any physical (and dare I suggest it... mental) disablity........    What are they going to do? Send you a doctor's sick note? 

 

It's a GAME, fer crissake. Who REALLY gives a stuff if someone logs a few easy trig points one month or a table full of travel bugs at an event? Not me, that's for sure. There are more important things in my life.... 

 

You've been running the COTM for the last year and it's been a success. More and more people submit their totals each month and hopefully that will continue. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." applies to COTM just as much as it does to anything else.

 

The more time you spend attempting to accommodate everyone's wishes, the less time you'll have to spend actually out there finding lunch boxes. Which reminds me.... Got a spare Saturday next month ???

and I also agree with Pharisee on this one.

I have to say that even though I made a suggestion re. points, I would be perfectly happy if things were to stay as they are. If it ain't broke etc.

 

T

[+DomHeknows]

ALL caches found will count towards cacher of the month

 

Just thought I would clear that one up now

 

I could not cope with the influx if everybody was allowed to enter. Thats why its for UK based cachers.

hmmm - does this mean, as i'm british, that when I move to the states I can continue to log my cache finds as long as I keep my home co-ordinates to Congleton?

:-)

[Pie Man]

Me. I'm just a Tapole. But I know I about Munros and Trig points in Scotland. You can either note the numbers, put a stone on top, take a photo, or p on them. I do the latter. 200+.

[Deego]

Right we have settled on 30 points for a hide. And TB's Need to be moved to be counted ( TB cars, event logbooks ect. are ok) (10 points)

 

That just leaves the trigpoints. I really dont know what to do. I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

[Leoness]

Right we have settled on 30 points for a hide. And TB's Need to be moved to be counted ( TB cars, event logbooks ect. are ok) (10 points)

 

That just leaves the trigpoints. I really dont know what to do. I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

 

It's YOUR CotM table - so go ahead and do what YOU want with it!

 

By the way... when you say a TB has to be "moved" to score... does that mean it has to have been placed in a new cache by the end of the month for it to count or can it actually be in one's posession and still count?

 

I guess that if you have it in your posession, then you must have "moved" it!

[+Team Ullium]

Right we have settled on 30 points for a hide. And TB's Need to be moved to be counted ( TB cars, event logbooks ect. are ok) (10 points)

 

That just leaves the trigpoints. I really dont know what to do. I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

I've tried to keep out of this debate...but if feel I must comment on the obvious...and that is if you had never included trig points Deego all this discussion and previous debates would never have taken place...people would have just accepted your excellent contribution of COTM as is

 

Ullium.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

people would have just accepted your excellent contribution of COTM as is 

99% people have accepted it. That's why so many people enter.

 

Oh, and Deego, if you WANT trigs at 10 points then do it!

 

T

Edited January 29, 2005 by Pengy&Tigger

[+Team Ullium]

people would have just accepted your excellent contribution of COTM as is 

99% people have accepted it. That's why so many people enter.

 

Oh, and Deego, if you WANT trigs at 10 points then do it!

 

T

Just how did you arrive at the 99% figure???

 

Seems to me looking at the total that enter every month it are a very small proportion of all the geocachers in the UK but then maybe I don't have your grasp of maths

Edited January 29, 2005 by Team Ullium

[Deego]

Right we have settled on 30 points for a hide. And TB's Need to be moved to be counted ( TB cars, event logbooks ect. are ok)  (10 points)

 

That just leaves the trigpoints. I really dont know what to do. I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

 

It's YOUR CotM table - so go ahead and do what YOU want with it!

 

By the way... when you say a TB has to be "moved" to score... does that mean it has to have been placed in a new cache by the end of the month for it to count or can it actually be in one's posession and still count?

 

I guess that if you have it in your posession, then you must have "moved" it!

No if its in your possession its moved. but count it the month you pick it up. and if its Deego TB be nice to him

 

Maybe I should have put would LIKE to not want

Edited January 29, 2005 by Deego

[Leoness]

I'm warming my hands as we speak!!! (oops, wrong forum!)

[+Pengy&Tigger]

Just how did you arrive at the 99% figure???

 

Seems to me looking at the total that enter every month it are a very small proportion of all the geocachers in the UK but then maybe I don't have your grasp of maths

Everyone loves a smarta**e Ullium. As you well know, the 99% was a roundabout way of say 'practically all' of the people who want to enter a fun competition do so. Do you really think anyone cares about your refusal to enter?

 

If someone doesn't enter it doesn't mean they haven't accepted the rules. As far as I can see, YOU are the minority, and if you don't want to enter, why are you even bothering with reading or replying in this thread?

 

T

[+Pharisee]

I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

Then LEAVE them at 10 points !!!

[+Simply Paul]

I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

Then LEAVE them at 10 points !!!

Seconded.

 

I think clearer rules on TBs (that they've been picked up to be moved, not just seen on a table or in a box) make a lot of sense, and I'm glad the hide points figure has gone up as I have some plans for cool new caches.

 

Trigs will remain a contentious (well, relatively!) issue but since the table IS your baby Brian, you should leave them at 10 points if that's how you rate them for difficulty on average, against finding an average (multi/trad/puzzle/micro/whatever) cache, then that's cool with me, and should be cool with everyone else.

 

SP

[+rutson]

OK, what about benchmarks not listed on the TP:UK site?

[markandlynn]

 

That just leaves the trigpoints. I really dont know what to do. I WANT to keep them at 10 points.

Leave them at 10 points then.

 

How many for hiding a trig ive got the bags of concrete