Cotm

[+rutson]

Just a couple of thoughts, it's a new year and the was talk of a change of scoring system.

 

I'll start:

 

Caches: Let's stick with 10 for a find. I'm tempted to come up with some fancy system invloving difficultly and terrain, but that would get silly. As for placing, I think that's worth more than 20, at least two trips out etc. Let's say 30.

 

Travel bugs; They are designed to be moved so maybe different scores for logging and moving them? 5 and 10.

 

Trigs: I really don't think that a trig find is worth the same as a cache. Let's face it, pillers are designed to to easy to see from a distance. Bolts are a different matter, but still easier to find than most caches, hell, the OS give you sketches. So maybe 2 for a pillar, 4 for a flush, 6 for a bolt. Or 5 across the board to keep it simple.

On the other hand it is called CACHER of the month, maybe we need separate COTM and TPOTM tables?

 

OK, I'm going to duck for cover now....

[Deego]

How much free time do you think i get !!!!!!

 

trigs are easy !!! have you been to the trig on Ben nevis some caches are easy as well.

[+rutson]

How much free time do you think i get !!!!!!

 

trigs are easy !!! have you been to the trig on Ben nevis some caches are easy as well.

OK, fair point on the free time issue.

 

Also Ben Nevis is the exception rather than the rule. I doubt many cachers would have trouble finding this:

 

[+Papakas]

Finding the trig on Ben Nevis is easy, there's a path leading all the way up to it! Try finding the trig on Ben More at one o'clock at night in 10m visibility! Surely that's worth at least double points for the insanity of the find!

[Deego]

There are plenty of tricky Trigpoints and not all have access to them.

 

I am open to ideas though. (honest ) but I would rather keep it simple.

 

Do people feel ripped off by trigpoints ?? is it harder when you open a box and there is TB sitting there, is that a more valid 10 points?

 

plus if I drop trigpoints I will never score many points

[+steviep]

guess who's put his hand in a hornets nest ?

[+Slytherin]

How much free time do you think i get !!!!!!

 

trigs are easy !!! have you been to the trig on Ben nevis some caches are easy as well.

If you have to check everyone's scores then I can see it becoming a real pain. I thought that everyone just claimed their own scores and submitted their own totals?

 

I have to agree with rutson, there's no way that trigpoints should be worth anywhere near the same points as cache finds. They are marked on maps and put in places that make them easily visible. It's not rocket science finding a trig point. And as you don't need a gps to find 99.99% of them, neither is it really anything to do with geocaching and COTM. I would favour trig points being removed from COTM altogether.

 

My dislike of being able to claim 10 points for a travel bug that you see on a table at an event cache is well known. The emphasis of travel bugs is TRAVEL. Unless people move them then they don't go anywhere. 10 points for moving a bug along and 2 points for just logging it. Or even better 0 points unless you move the bug.

 

No tweaking of the points was allowed during the whole of 2004 in case it upset the balance of COTY , so surely its better to try and iron out the rules before anyone starts posting scores for January 2005.

 

Cache finds = 10 Cache hides = 30 Trigs = 0 Bugs moved = 10 bugs logged = 2

 

that's my two-pennyworth anyway...

-

Edited January 26, 2005 by Slytherin

[+Pharisee]

Trigs: I really don't think that a trig find is worth the same as a cache.............

This one has got to be worth 100 points at least

[SlytherinAlex]

oh.... and only UK finds to count.

[markandlynn]

Cache find 10 points

Cache hide 25 points

Travel bug find 5 points

Travel bug found and moved 10 points

Trig point 5 points (to encourage use of the trigpointing website)

Travel bug released 10 points

I would like to leave trigpoints in as this is part of deego's reward for running the COTM table.

and maybe 50 points for doing a 5/5 cache

UK geocoin 10 points

[+Kitty Hawk]

£0.02

 

There are few trigpoints worth less than a 1:1 cache, yet a 1:1 would score 10 points.

 

Granted a trig will rarely (although sometimes they do) score highly on difficulty, but they would often warrant a decent score for terrain. Also the views are often fantastic, they are always in the highest local point.

 

I agree that with a trigpoint you don't get to rummage about in undergrowth, but then you don't with locationless, armchair and virtual caches either.

 

Also, Brian does separate the columns so that it is clear how Trigs have influenced scores. I'm in favour of including trigs.

 

It seems a shame that a 1:1 cache scores as highly as a 5:5 cache, but as Rutson says, it's tricky to account fr this simply. It may be easy enough to say 10 points for a traditional and say 25 points for a multi.

 

Equally, the weighting for placements I would have thought could be stronger, say 30 points for setting a traditional and 50 pints for setting a multi.

 

 

Adrian

[SlytherinAlex]

....and 50 pints for setting a multi.

 

Adrian

I'll drink to that.

[+Papakas]

Personally I would like to see trigs retained in the scoring criteria. I do appreciate that a concrete pillar is rather easy to spot however, some of the other types of trigs can be quite tricky to locate even though a ten figure grid reference and diagrams/photos are given (regular caches have co-ords, ten figure grid references and sometimes even spoilers) but once at the location you could be standing on the trig without realising! In the spirit of caching though I would suggest rating trigs half points (i.e. 5 against 10 for a cache). I have to admit that after two consecutive DNFs recently I went off to do a trig pillar knowing I'd make the find and get my spirits back up again!

 

Again in the spirit of caching I agree only TBs moved should score however this would require extra time checking a competitors submission as I for one will still log a TB and not move it if the direction I am going would be detrimental to its aim. However, I do keep my own database and can easily determine which logged TBs are elligible for me to score!

 

Whatever the decision with COTM this year I hope a lesson learnt from last year is that no attempt is made to change the scoring criteria half way through!

 

Interesting point about only UK finds Alex, I know a certain couple of ladies who could be well disappointed with that potential ruling! This is not critisicm Brian but there's hindsight here that would suggest this should have been sorted before the first cache was found in 2005!

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with COTM this year Brian. If you're prepared to put the effort in to continue running it you can count on my support.

Edited January 26, 2005 by Pyoung1s

[+The White Family]

There are easy and difficult caches; there are easy and difficult trigs. Any system which awards points based on a perceived average difficulty is always going to be "wrong" in both directions. It just needs to be simple.

 

Could someone explain the TB moving/logging issue? I pick up a TB, I log it. I put it somewhere else, I log it. What's the difference? What I don't like is people picking up a TB then immediately putting it back in the same cache and logging both. I don't see that as the spirit of TBs, which is to move them to a goal. Such "movements" definitely shouldn't count, though it'll be very time-consuming to check.

 

I don't mind if trigs are in or out. If out, I'd like a TPOTM (not that I'll ever be much above the bottom).

 

All caches should count, not just UK ones.

 

Remember: COTM is only a bit of fun (becoming less so for Brian, I suspect).

 

Alan

[+Boneychest & Catsuey]

I doubt many cachers would have trouble finding this:

 

W can't find it (there are a lot of them you know, and they all look the same!) If you give us the grid ref or coords then we might not have quite so much trouble.

[SlytherinAlex]

Interesting point about only UK finds Alex, I know a certain couple of ladies who could be well disappointed with that potential ruling! This is not critisicm Brian but there's hindsight here that would suggest this should have been sorted before the first cache was found in 2005!.

I put that in because caching in the States CAN BE (not always) a whole lot easier than in many parts of the UK. Having spent about 4 hours in Jacksonville hovering up over 50 caches that in some cases were hanging on tree branches in plain view, I speak from experience.

 

Never wanting to disappoint ladies, I'll withdraw the UK only bit, but as I'm off to Austin again next week I have made the decison that I won't claim my US finds. Less than 30 of my last 200 finds have been in the UK, so maybe I don't qualify as a UK based cacher anyway.

 

I guess you are right, we should really have sorted things out before Jan 1, but it is cacher of the MONTH and having slightly different points scoring from one month to the next shouldn't make that much difference as long as eveyone know the position before the month starts. Unless stats are becoming more important than the game?

 

-

Edited January 26, 2005 by SlytherinAlex

[+rutson]

OK bonus COTM point for identifying THAT trig

[Deego]

Who do I have to buy a pint, to get Rutson banned for a month Thanks Ian

 

Its going to be Impossible to please everyone

Edited January 26, 2005 by Deego

[+kevin308]

I had no idea what a trig point was until I read this

[+The White Family]

I doubt many cachers would have trouble finding this

Finding it, assuming the same weather conditions as in the photo, possibly not. Getting to it might be a different matter.

 

And not all trigs are that obvious. This one took 20 minutes to find, even with the OS survey info.

 

[Deego]

OK bonus COTM point for identifying THAT trig

It looks like pendle hill

 

How many points do I get? 5 or 10

Edited January 26, 2005 by Deego

[+Stuey]

Who do I have to buy a pint, to get Rutson banned for a month :o Thanks Ian

 

Its going to be Impossible to please everyone

The COTM is your brainchild, you maintain it, it's yours... do what you like with it. If Rutson wants to have a league table that puts them higher up it, Rutson can set one up as well, hehe

 

I don't agree with TP's being on there at all, but rules is rules. If I want to get higher, I'll have to log TP's as well.... something I really can't be bothered to do. There are 4000 more caches in the UK that I have yet to find first

[Deego]

wow

 

I like stuey :D

[+68 GUNS]

Trig pillars aren't always that easy to log. They may be generally easier to locate, although some effort may be needed to actually reach them, but in order to log them you need the FB no. I have logged a couple of pillars (one not more than a mile from home) which required clearing of undergrowth to be able to read the plate. I also found one which required a bit of digging to remove the build up of soil from the base of the pillar. I recall reading a story of someone locating a trig pillar on school property which was so overgrown that the caretaker; who had been there for many years, didn't know existed. And that is without mentioning FBM's, rivets, Berntsens etc, and I know some of us have had a run in with some of those before now. TP's also give an extra dimension to the walk to a cache, we try and combine both whenever possible. And some of the better viewpoints on a route tend to be at or near pillars, for obvious reasons. I personally think that the scoring should stay more or less the same, with a possible increase for cache placing as this adds to the sport and should be rewarded accordingly. And after all it is only for fun!!

[Leoness]

wow

 

I like stuey :o

 

I agree with Stuey... does that mean you like me too?!!!

 

For what it's worth, my £0.02 ...

 

1) only UK caches to count

2) no TPs at all

3) only TBs moved and new ones released to count

 

You could score difficulty and terrain according to how the cache owner has scored it on the cache sheet i.e. you only score points equal to the difficulty and terrain scores of the caches you've found.

 

So two people finding 5 different caches each may have different scores according to how difficult to get to or to find those caches were.

 

I appreciate that this would be a nightmare to verify but if it's done on a trust basis then I'm sure when the results are published, if someone's tried to cheat on their stats claimed, any number of other cachers will let them (and the rest of the caching community) know about it!

[markandlynn]

Brian,

Am i right in that all entries are on a trust basis?

[+Papakas]

ROTM (rutson of the month). Off you go Ian!

[+rutson]

Who do I have to buy a pint, to get Rutson banned for a month Thanks Ian

 

Its going to be Impossible to please everyone

Your table Brian, buy yourself a pint.

 

[edit to add a smiley that I would've SWORN I put there the first time]

Edited January 26, 2005 by rutson

[Deego]

was I right ?? with the trig point?

[Deego]

Brian,

Am i right in that all entries are on a trust basis?

Yes, but I do check quite a few of them. (I enjoy reading profiles and I am nosy)

[+Simply Paul]

I agree, it's Brian's baby, he gets to decide what is what. Now, if I were in charge...

 

A find = 10 points. No extra points for a 5/5 as the reward for those is having done it. Also, when totting up scores at the end of the month it would be a pain to recall the relative difficulties (or multi/puzzle/micro status) of caches. Anyway, I bet there are 3/4's out there which are harder than some 5/5's

 

A hide = 20 points are not enough. I don't know about other people but it takes me much more than twice as long and twice as much effort to hide a cache as it takes me to find one. I have to provide a container and contents, think of a good location, scout the area, take multiple co-ords to average, create the listing page... I'd say an average hide is five times harder than an average find so I'd say a hide should be worth 50 points, regardless of it being a micro, offset multi or full-on puzzle. We do need to keep things simple!

 

TB MOVED = 10 points. Keeping in the spirit of TRAVEL Bugs, I think a log at a meet (unless an unusual TB like the Meet-logbook, Deego or vehicle ones) shouldn't count. It's easy to collect numbers but it achieves nothing except bumping your score up for the COTM table. A TB moved from one event/cache to another is a TB that's worthy of the points. Seeing one sat on a table or in a box isn't.

 

TB released = 20 points. Again, costs money and effort and does add some 'extra value' to the sport of Geocaching.

 

Trig Points = Weeeeelllll.... It is the Cacher of the Month table and these do have their own logging website. They are easier to find than a cache because they're designed to be found, and caches are designed NOT to be found! Not without a struggle anyway. If it were up to me (and it isn't) I'd separate the COTM and TPOTM tables all together. People into both can then appear on both and the (majority?) who focus on either can work hard to get to the top of the table of their choice. To make it a little more interesting, why not give 10 points for a TP logged by 10 people or more, 20 points for 9-2 finds and 50 points for a First To Log?

 

However Brian moves the COTM table forward (or leaves the popular format well alone) I for one will continue to enter on a monthly basis, happy in the knowledge that I know the rules and it's a level playing-field.

 

SP

 

Edited for a P.S. The trig point looks 'borrowed' for The House Of Boo's site. I've not checked, but it looks a lot like the one on the top of Dragon Hill (Oxfordshire's highest point) above the Uffington White Horse and next to the ancient hill fort.

 

Edited to edit the edit: I'm totally wrong on all fronts. Nothing new there...

Edited January 26, 2005 by Simply Paul

[+rutson]

was I right ?? with the trig point?

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/environment/c...ng/sdownham.asp

 

See for yourself

[Deego]

was I right ?? with the trig point?

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/environment/c...ng/sdownham.asp

 

See for yourself

Yes I was. Yippee I got something right

 

So IF I did a seperate Trigpoint table how would I do the profiles? and profile lists ??? the points would never match up, I dont want to have two profile pages for each person

 

I am really confused

[+Happy Humphrey]

I entirely agree with Simply Paul's post - well put.

 

For the future:-

We should consider points for difficulty/terrain but not until someone has been generous enough to provide Brian with some software which will analyse the stats for all entrants and produce the points total automatically. Any volunteers - geocaching is full of IT experts. Perhaps for next year? Accessing the Groundspeak database directly might be impossible, but what about GPX files?

 

Anyway, I bet there are 3/4's out there which are harder than some 5/5's

 

That's certainly the case, but those "soft" 5/5 finds will soon be spotted and revised, which will help those who aren't into this informal competition (and help the cache setters get it right).

 

HH

[SlytherinAlex]

I entirely agree with Simply Paul's post - well put.

I also find little to disgaree with in Simply Paul's post.

 

It has my vote.

[Miss_Duracell_Bunny]

Hi all,

 

Does the UK Cacher of The month table include everyone or just the people that have a score to count? If you do nothing in January, will you be joint last with other inactive geocaches or do you not appear on the table at all?

[Deego]

Hi all,

 

Does the UK Cacher of The month table include everyone or just the people that have a score to count? If you do nothing in January, will you be joint last with other inactive geocaches or do you not appear on the table at all?

Really to be fair 10 points minium to enter. that keeps the numbers correct also I dont have to up date a profile with a zero.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Bunny,

You have to actually enter the competition, to have a score posted in the COTM table. You're not featured unless you want to be. I think there's quite a bit of competition for last place!

 

Does this mean you're planning to bag some caches?

 

HH

[Deego]

So how many points for a hide ? 30 or 50

 

Trigpoints new table (TOTM) or 5 points? I am worried that if we do an TOTM table the entrys will dry up for it. plus I had plans for next month to clear up all the trigs near my house(I have done all the caches) So I might not be able to enter COTM

 

 

Maybe I should get SP to write the new RULES page

[markandlynn]

I think your original reason for including trigs remains.

5 points for a trig as they are like a 1/1 or some virts.

Hiding a cache hmmm VOTE please

[+The Hokesters]

I had no idea what a trig point was until I read this

Another great reason for keeping them in COTM and before you start I have only found three and one of those we fell over on the way to a cache. The trig point took 0 seconds to find whilst the cache took about 10 minutes.

 

GCJJ89

Our Log

 

Me head hurts with this discussion by the way! I hope we let Brian decide how much work he wants to put into COTM in 2005?

[+Happy Humphrey]

I hope we let Brian decide how much work he wants to put into COTM in 2005?

 

I think everyone understands that this is all up to Brian, including keeping it exactly as before if he thinks it could get too onerous.

 

But I vote for 50 points for a hide - it probably takes at least a full day to set up a good cache properly, which perhaps equates to 5 average cache finds.

 

Ecky and Lacky should watch out for loads of rubbish "quicky" cache hides springing up though (maybe that's what I mean about "average" caches)! Perhaps minus 50 points for caches that fail approval?

 

HH

[+mongoose39uk]

Brians baby let him run it how he likes.

 

I don't do many trig points but I do like the idea of them being there.

 

The way it is now seems fine to me but then I rarely have enough finds of any kind to make it in the top ten.

 

It is just a bit of fun and adds a little spark to the game.

[+Pengy&Tigger]

My 2p:

 

10 for a cache found

25 for a cache hidden. I know some of us put a lot of work into hiding a cache, but 50 points may encourage some not so good caches to spring up just for the points.

5 for a trig as a compromise between 10 and none.

10 points for a TB retrieved for moving.

20 points for a new TB released.

 

Maybe Brian could put together some possible combinations that he would be happy with and run a vote on GCUK? That way in six months time when someone whines about the scoring system (someone will, whatever it is!) you can at least say that it was voted for.

 

The other thing I would point out is that it's the 26th of January, which is maybe a little late to be changing the rules for this month.

 

T

[Deego]

 

The other thing I would point out is that it's the 26th of January, which is maybe a little late to be changing the rules for this month.

 

I was trying to keep my head down and leave it as it was

 

As long as we sort it out before the 31st so all 12 months will be the same.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

one comment for others to think about! If you award points on a scale regarding terrain, then you are delibratly penalising, cachers with disabilitys straight away. If you think of some of the caches that are up in the hills, you have 3 groups who make choices about finding them! Group One, who will take on the challenge, Group 2, who decide not to take on the challenge, and Group 3, who are unable to take up the challenge, due to ill health or disability. If more points are awarded to these caches than ones which rate as a 1, you are deliberatly penalising someone who has ill health or is disabled! To my other half, just getting to a cache rateted as a 1.5, can be the equivelant of a 4 or 5 to her.

 

I've posted these coments, just to get people thinking, and am in no way trying to start an argument with any one. As some one who is a full time carer, I am aware, on a daily basis, the huge challenge some one with disabilitys can face, just getting out off bed, to go to the toilet!

 

Brian it's your table, your hard work each month! Just lay the law down to them , their still come running to you with their scores! I've never seen a more addicted bunch!

 

Dave

[Leoness]

one comment for others to think about! If you award points on a scale regarding terrain, then you are delibratly penalising, cachers with disabilitys straight away. If you think of some of the caches that are up in the hills, you have 3 groups who make choices about finding them! Group One, who will take on the challenge, Group 2, who decide not to take on the challenge, and Group 3, who are unable to take up the challenge, due to ill health or disability. If more points are awarded to these caches than ones which rate as a 1, you are deliberatly penalising someone who has ill health or is disabled! To my other half, just getting to a cache rateted as a 1.5, can be the equivelant of a 4 or 5 to her.

 

I've posted these coments, just to get people thinking, and am in no way trying to start an argument with any one. As some one who is a full time carer, I am aware, on a daily basis, the huge challenge some one with disabilitys can face, just getting out off bed, to go to the toilet!

 

Brian it's your table, your hard work each month! Just lay the law down to them , their still come running to you with their scores! I've never seen a more addicted bunch! 

 

Dave 

 

A very valid point and one which I had overlooked. My apologies.

 

I'll just go and crawl back in my hole now and shut up!!!!

Edited January 26, 2005 by Leoness

[+Kitty Hawk]

Brian it's your table, your hard work each month! Just lay the law down to them , their still come running to you with their scores! I've never seen a more addicted bunch!

 

Quite agree. I'll play and be happy.

 

- I'd also be happy with boosted points for cache setters and even though I do do trigs I can see the argument for reduced points for these.

 

 

Adrian

[+John Stead]

It's not rocket science finding a trig point.

That put me thinking back to a certain evening last year with Pengy and Tigger, CaveTroll and Joan near Abergele!

 

As for scoring I go along with Pengy and Tigger both in their suggested points table and the proposal for a poll - if that is not too hard to formulate.

[+milvus-milvus]

Agree with much of what's been said so far - especially that placing a cache must be worth at least 5x finding one.

 

Just one additional suggestion - how about a 10 point bonus for FTFs?

 

Baz

(2 FTFs so far this week.. )