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Geocaching, Dc, & The Fbi


traeumer

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Clearly my "milk and honey" statement didn't help clarify my position on the war on <insert ideology that can never actually be "defeated" here>.

 

......

 

My statement on virtuals therefore is said satirically.

Or BS/2 and I were looking for a fight :lol:

 

Anyway, yes, it was too subtle for us, so next time help us out with a coupla dozen smileys :o

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So what's the logic behind considering GPSrs suspicious? Did the terrorists of the WTC actually walk to the WTC with a yellow eTrex in hand to record its coordinates so that their buddies who flew the planes could enter the coords in their eTrexes and find the towers based on that?

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It was the big suburban with flashing lights that had FBI emblazoned on the side that kinda gave it away. Oh, and the agents with the FBI uniforms & guns helped too.

Hey I think I saw them selling that kind of stuff at the Party! Party! Party! store by me. Right there next to the Elvira outfit.

Oooo... picture two Elviras come question you. 'The good' Elvira and 'the bad' Elvira. What aren't you gonna take me away? :lol:

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Just curious - is there anybody lurking out there who has had any similar geocaching experiences outside  the U.S. that they'd care to share?

There's been similar topics on the "german speaking forum" (I'll try to markwell them later).

From what I remember, the outcome was always sort of "ah, geocaching, why didn't you say that beforehand?".

 

Let's see what I can find.

 

BS/2

 

Edit: Links

 

Beim Cachen erwischt? (on "getting caught")

Halt, Polizei! (on language problems when confronted with police abroad)

Edited by BalkanSabranje
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I'm not admitting to where this was taken. If you recognize the location then chances are it's only because you've been there.

 

I will say this, when I signed in I was asked what the thing in my hand was.  I said it was a GPS. The response came back "What's a GPS?"

 

:o

 

Bret

Nice pic. I hope your escort is the one taking the picture :lol: By the way, I think you're allowed to take pictures there. They won't let you take pictures outside near the entrance facilities, but people take pictures out where you were all the time. It would be a cool place for a cache, too :D

Edited by ParrotRob
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Just curious - is there anybody lurking out there who has had any similar geocaching experiences outside the U.S. that they'd care to share?

Not that much lurking :lol: but here's what happened to me some months ago. No police involved, rather firemen, but the word bomb was mentioned. :o As soon as 'treasure hunting' was brought up, all was fine, and 'the questioning' with the answers included was less than 5 minutes long. It wasn't a pleasant situation to be involved, though.

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So what's the logic behind considering GPSrs suspicious? Did the terrorists of the WTC actually walk to the WTC with a yellow eTrex in hand to record its coordinates so that their buddies who flew the planes could enter the coords in their eTrexes and find the towers based on that?

First that really makes me mad. How come they were able to lock up satellites in a plane? I have never been able to do that. :grin:

 

I have to tell you I am amazed going through airport security. Many times I have gone through with a GPSr, PDA, laptop, mini USB hub, all of the various wires to connect, sync and get electric to these things, plus a bookmark that is made out of brass (or at least looks like it) that is about 7" x 1" and who knows what else is bouncing around the bottom of my briefcase. Only once have I been stopped. I was thinking I am not going to have time to dig out all of those wires and get them back in. But almost the first pocket they opened they found what they were looking for, a harmonica. It would seem it looked like a clip on the xray.

 

So no I don't really see the problem walking around in public with a legal device. If I can walk there legally and not be doing anything that is not legal then leave me alone. You can watch all you want but don't think you can start playing 20 questions. Because where does that end? Suppose I stop and look at the White House for too long? Is it OK to start asking questions? Again if you are there legally then you are not doing anything that is wrong or getting any kind of information that you can not find somewhere else. It seems like the only people they are going to catch with these sort of techniques are the stupid terrorists that don't know how to find this stuff out any other way. And I think the people we are dealing with today are far from stupid.

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First that really makes me mad. How come they were able to lock up satellites in a plane? I have never been able to do that. ...

Those planes have very good antennas. It really helps that they are on the top. :grin:

 

Incidently, I have really good luck with my 3+ on planes. I try to always sit in the window seat on the FO's side. I just velcro my 3+ to the window. It gets a quick lock and I don't have to hold it.

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These can't be won....if they could...we'd all live in a land of milk and honey (ironically, what Palestine is supposed to be for the Jews according to the Bible).

 

Prophecy~history written in advance-God's way of proving He exists. God revealed to King Nebuchadnezzar that there would only be 4 world empires~to not include Jews~untill 'the time of the end'. Daniel explained to crazy Nebuchadnezzar his dream in the form of a statue~4 levels:

Golden Head=representing Babylon

Silver chest=Medo-Persion empire

Brass belly=Greeks

Iron Legs=Romans

10 toes made of clay & iron=a current unstable form of government/10 rulers (the UN) paving the way for antichrist.

Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mao & others have tried; Palestine was never suppose to be a land of milk & honey.

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Prophecy~history written in advance-God's way of proving He exists. God revealed to King Nebuchadnezzar that there would only be 4 world empires~to not include Jews~untill 'the time of the end'. Daniel explained to crazy Nebuchadnezzar his dream in the form of a statue~4 levels:

Golden Head=representing Babylon

Silver chest=Medo-Persion empire

Brass belly=Greeks

Iron Legs=Romans

10 toes made of clay & iron=a current unstable form of government/10 rulers (the UN) paving the way for antichrist.

Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mao & others have tried; Palestine was never suppose to be a land of milk & honey.

Well, this discussion is over. Godwin's Law has been invoked! :grin:

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I wonder if there is now a record filed at the FBI regarding the OP... Next time they do another Terry stop on him, he might get arrested because behaving suspiciously twice will be regarded as probable cause. And if this happens to a foreign tourist, next time he wants to enter the US they might deny his entry (or he doesn't get a visa in the first place) on the basis that he has an FBI record.

Chances are if they're filing everything suspicious, they're also making notes on each and every one of us in this thread.

 

I recall hearing about a woman who now has an FBI file because she told a friend that her son bombed in the school play.

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So what's the logic behind considering GPSrs suspicious? Did the terrorists of the WTC actually walk to the WTC with a yellow eTrex in hand to record its coordinates so that their buddies who flew the planes could enter the coords in their eTrexes and find the towers based on that?

I would think it's the behavior of the person carrying it.

Think about it. When you cache and there are muggles, you look over your shoulder/around you alot. You start trying to be sneaky. Etc..

And of course that makes you more suspicious. Try to be quiet some day and realize how much noise you make that way... It's the same thing...

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I just did some research and indeed the WTC terrorists bought Garmin GPS III Pilots to use on the plane, and Mohamed Atta spent a few days in Manhattan, and it is speculated that he might have used a GPS device to record the coordinates of the WTC. I guess they didn't buy the Mapsource City Select CD because if they had had that they could have just marked the destination based on the street address of the WTC...

 

So now because of this everyone with a GPS is a terrorist suspect... great.

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Nice pic.  I hope your escort is the one taking the picture :grin:  By the way, I think you're allowed to take pictures there.  They won't let you take pictures outside near the entrance facilities, but people take pictures out where you were all the time.  It would be a cool place for a cache, too  :huh:

Good eye. :grin:

 

I wasn't allowed to take pictures in the hallways either, which was a shame. Some of the most beautiful and moving artwork I've ever seen.

 

I took several pictures in the Memorial Chapel. I have a rubbing from there that hangs in my office. The whole visit (I had a private tour) was one of the most moving experiences of my life. I'm glad to finally get that picture scanned and share it.

 

The disturbing part was that the person who asked me "What's GPS?" was an MP.....considering what she was guarding I would have thought she would have been a little more in the know. :o

 

Oh, and I was waypointing the spot as the picture was being taken. I was going to submit it as a virtual (this was a few years ago) but was wisely talked out of it. Besides, I was just a lousy tourist. :D

 

Bret

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So now because of this everyone with a GPS is a terrorist suspect... great.

Hmmm, I seem to recall reading that the WTC hijackers also rented cars and used e-mail, and in some cases visited lap-dancing establishments (good cover this, "hey look here Mr. G-Man, I'm not like some kind of really fundamentalist Muslim"). So anyone using those should definitely be considered suspicious.

 

But apparently in the 30s Hoover really did try to get ownership of powerful cars restricted because Dillinger had a better car than the Feds...

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PDAs are suspicious, too? Wierd.

 

Good thing I didn't have a GPS with me!

The airports where one usually waits for his wife don't require a GPS to find them ... they have localizers, ADF's and all other sort's of well known radio signals one can use for homing in.

 

Jan

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More food for though.

 

The Supreme court saw nothing wrong with the US interment camps durring WWII Most of the peopleo in these were US citizens.

The Governament used the same logic, We do not know who th trust so we are going to lock them all up"

 

In the early years of this country the supreme court saw nothing wrong with Slavery.

 

There's something wrong with slavery??

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More food for though.

 

The Supreme court saw nothing wrong with the US interment camps durring WWII Most of the peopleo in these were US citizens.

The Governament used the same logic, We do not know who th trust so we are going to lock them all up"

 

In the early years of this country the supreme court saw nothing wrong with Slavery.

 

There's something wrong with slavery??

Hey, Mitsubishi didn't see anything wrong with it when they used US Soldiers during WWII as slave labor in their factories, either.

 

Interesting that different times mean different things to different people. Whether it's slavery or anything else.

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Its great to hear some of us making light of what happened on 9/11.  Some of you need to go visit your local comedy clubs and start a 9/11 stand up career.  By all means keep adding to the 9/11 jokes already posted to the thread  :grin:

There is a difference between making jokes about what happened and making jokes about silly reactions to what happened. Nothing funny about an airplane crashing into a building, but asking tourists if they plan terrorist activities ... wait a second ... actually that's not funny either, considering that those guy's who think that's worth asking are the ones in charge for security.

 

Jan

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Well, this discussion is over.  Godwin's Law has been invoked!  :)

Unfortunately, "...whoever points out that Godwin's law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly." :unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:

 

...but asking tourists if they plan terrorist activities ... wait a second ... actually that's not funny either, considering that those guy's who think that's worth asking are the ones in charge for security.

Back on topic, when questioned by the Feds, "What are you doing?" I wonder just how many bad guys have ever answered TRUTHFULLY? I bet very few have ever said, "Yes, you got me. I would have gotten away with it, if not for the FBI and it's cursed questions!" :D

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Just because the supreme court says they can do somethng, does not make it RIGHT...

Agreed, but until enough Geocachers get elected to the legislature (or appointed to the Supreme Court :unsure: ), the end result is still the same: with "reasonable suspicion" Geocachers will still be stopped and questioned from time to time.

Close but no ceeeeeegar.

 

In these days, in select settings, those behaving suspiously be they geocachers or bank tellers will be stopped and questioned. Just as soon as bank tellers begin snooping in bushes, under rocks, behind buildings, along road way guard rails and the like, the frequency of their contact with the long arm of deee law will likely increase.

 

Those who are put off by being 'targeted' because of their behavior might want to consider altering said behavior.

 

Or not.

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I've really resisted replying to this thread.... especially since I do wear a badge and enforce the laws that are enacted by elected officials and the voting public... but after reading this:

 

Those who are put off by being 'targeted' because of their behavior might want to consider altering said behavior.

 

I decided to reply. That is an excellent statement. Face it, law enforcement officers are darned if they do and darned if they don't.

 

The roughest, toughest gang member who may decide to take a shot at me and hates me will be the same person that calls and wants a police report when their car stereo is stolen.

 

I'm not gonna get in a debate about civil liberties being violated, but in areas such as our nation's capital, security is at an all time high... just try to remember that not everyone that wears a badge is a 'jack booted thug'. Most LEOs are just normal everyday people. We are your neighbors and the same people that you go to church with. Our kids go to school with your kids. We just want to do our job which involves protecting and serving the public. We don't make the laws, we just enforce them. Yeah, there are some bad apples out there, but 99.9% of all LEOs just want to do their job and go home safe and hopefully during that 8-10 hour shift make a difference by helping and protecting someone.

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Want to REALLY have some fun questions to answer?

Have a GPS unit insode the secure perimiter of an airport!

I work security at an airport. Just the night before President Bush was to fly in, I was updating my GPS unit ( hey long boring shift at a little used access point, why not put the time to good use?) when an FBI agent came through the checkpoint. After checking his ID, he asked me what "that thing" ( my Legend) was. Shortly afterward, I was visited by 2 agents of the Secret Service.

The only question I was asked was " what is that for?" I told them Geocaching and the one agent looks at me and said "really? any good caches nearby"? :unsure:

Then we both had to explain the sport to the other agent.

BTW, I did let the one know about a few good caches.

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I had to explain my jeep full of geocaching gear (gps, digital camera, ammo-can, food and drink, backpack, etc.) to a homeland security checkpoint on the road one day. The guy stuck his head in the car to ask me what I was doing, saw the stuff on my passenger seat, and called over his supervisor. I explained what I was doing, showed them a listing printout, the contents of the cache I was planning on hiding, and ended up being an infomercial for geocaching for a couple of minutes, they both said they were going to check it out.

 

nfa-jamie

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I think Americans in general seem more accepting of a visible (and tangible) law enforcement presence than Europeans. And not just since 9/11.

 

About 20 years ago I had to spend a boring work week on my own in suburban Bedford, Massachusetts. With little to do one evening I went for a walk round the neighbourhood of the uninspiring hotel I was staying in. After half a mile or so I heard a brief "weeooo" of a siren and turned round to see a police cruiser stopped at the kerb just behind me. Two cops got out and asked me what I was doing. I was genuinely surprised and would have loved to say something cute, but all I could manage was "erm... just walking around". I'd been walking (I thought) quite purposefully, hadn't been inspecting parked cars or staring at houses or whatever.

 

They didn't run my ID or anything (not sure if they would have known what to do with a British passport anyway) - and maybe my accent reassured them that if I was a burglar casing the local residences, I was at least an exotic burglar - but I was amazed that they felt the need to stop someone whose only "suspicious" behaviour was walking along a sidewalk at 8pm on an evening in May. They were utterly polite at all times and wished me a pleasant evening ("enjoy the rest of your walk, sir") as they left.

 

Now, I can't think of a European country where the police would do that. Maybe they should - I don't know anything about law enforcement, to say whether or not that sort of thing is a productive use of officers' time - but it always feels unsettling when you're picked out by the cops, even if you know you haven't done anything wrong.

 

On balance this sort of check doesn't worry me. What does concern me is when reports, based on nothing more than suspicions, start getting filed, which can then be read, misunderstood, and used to "prove" a "pattern of intent", by people who have targets to meet.

 

I think most people can remember being in a situation - perhaps while Geocaching - where we thought "I hope nobody - especially not a cop - comes along right now and asks what I'm doing". Where if we had to tell the truth, we would almost expect the officer to arrest us just for "yanking his chain".

 

With 280 million residents, the US must have hundreds of such incidents per day. Some of them will happen to people of Middle Eastern appearance. And some of them will happen to the slightly long-haired children of people on this forum. That's what worries me about the whole "homeland security" thing. I don't think it will prevent terrorist outrages, but I'm sure it will result in a lot of innocent people being arrested. I'm just sad that the US - of all countries ! the beacon of freedom ! - seems to have flip-flopped from "presuming innocence", past "presuming guilt", to "presuming terrorism".

Edited by sTeamTraen
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They, however, have quite a lot of experience with what is "normal wierd" and "totally out of place". That's the distinction we pay them to make.

 

On NPR several months back there was a report on a study of just that. Are people, specifically cops, FPI agents, airport security and others actally able to determine if people are lying to them? Are they able to pick distinguish those who are acting suspicious but are, in fact., doing nothing wrong from those acting suspicious because they are criminals?

 

The results is that these "professionals" were able to do no better that an average person untrained in spotting such things, and those people were not doing much better than random chance.

 

The only people that did show any sort of statistical advantage were professional FBI interrigators. After years of exclusive training, they could determine that people were lying by using a detailed and well-used series of questions and counter questions. But even their success rate was not overwhelming. In this test, they were spotting liars at around a 70% rate.

 

These people who are supposidly trained to spot suspicious behavior are, in fact, no better than you or me in determining if that so-called suspicious behavior actually means something. And because they can't tell the difference, they waste a great deal of time and stomp on a whole lot of civil rights essentially harrasing innocent people. They are relying on the statistical hope that if they confront enough people they may eventually stumble across someone actually planning on commiting a crime.

 

Unfortunately for us, we walk around with electronic devices in our hands. The average person doesn't know what we're doing and it looks suspicious. The professionals supposidly charged with our protection, also see this as suspicious but they have the power to exert their authority and confront us. When we tell them, they are not trained to know the difference between someone telling the truth and someone lying so they can't respond as we think they should "Oh, well that's OK then. Carry on." Instead the play 20 questions and call their supervisors who, not being on the scene, are even less qualified to determine what's going on.

In the end, your time has been wasted, you are now on a list of suspicious people and the constabulary has distracted themselves from the actual job of making us safe.

 

The average cop of FBI agent means well but, to be honest, they simply aren't qualified to do the kind of security task they are being asked to do. Their only recourse is be suspicous of everyone and, subsequently, to violate their civil rights in a desparate effort to protect them. I hod two parties responsible for this. First, the people at the top of our government. They all have their own political agendas that they want to sell to the American public and the rhetoric of fear allows them to accomplish it. Second, I blame the American public for giving into irrashional fear and allowing the politicians to abrogate their liberties for the illusion of safety.

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...I'm not gonna get in a debate about civil liberties being violated, but ...

Didn't you just take the easy way out? This entire topic hovers around whether rights are being violated and whether we should be OK with it.

 

I do agree with you that you have a hard job. I respect you for doing it, but if you decide its too much, you can get into a different career. I know a guy that was a cop in LA for years. Eventually, he got sick of it and decided to get out. Today, he's an airline pilot and loves his job everyday.

Edited by sbell111
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...I'm not gonna get in a debate about civil liberties being violated, but ...

Didn't you just take the easy way out? This entire topic hovers around whether rights are being violated and whether we should be OK with it.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I didn't view jeff35080's post as 'taking the easy way out'. The easy way out would have been to not post at all.

 

I think the well-stated point was to suggest that people keep in mind not to categorize all LEOs as overzealous bullies.

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...I'm not gonna get in a debate about civil liberties being violated, but ...

Didn't you just take the easy way out? This entire topic hovers around whether rights are being violated and whether we should be OK with it.

 

I do agree with you that you have a hard job. I respect you for doing it, but if you decide its too much, you can get into a different career. I know a guy that was a cop in LA for years. Eventually, he got sick of it and decided to get out. Today, he's an airline pilot and loves his job everyday.

You really should TRY his job, if you think he "takes the easy way out." I've done a ride-along with him, and saw some eye-opening sights, indeed. Not once did he "violate" anyones rights all night! :unsure:

 

I have friends that are Deputies, Police officers, and my best friend is a Sky Marshal. There is NO ONE I would rather have on a plane with me than him. If any of them violate someone's eggshell-fragile rights, great and fine -- apologies can come later, after his duty is performed. I would much rather a mistake be made and "offend" someone than to be PC about it and another disaster occur.

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I don't believe anyone in this thread has stated that all leos violate peoples rights.  However, the idea that its no big deal if these rights are violated (after all, you can always apologize later) is silly.

Okay, then. Let me rephrase it so you can understand: I think it's pathetic for people to get their undies in a bunch when questioned. If your intentions are good and you don't have an outstanding warrant, what's the harm? The safety of the public comes first -- and THAT is their job. They do it pretty well, for the most part.

 

I had a friend in the pentagon whose office was in THAT sector. My sister-in-law was job hunting at the WTC. We were scared out of our minds for their safety that day.

 

"Silly?" I think not.

 

To all LEOs -- you can question me anytime, anywhere. I DON'T have a problem with it.

Edited by joefrog
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If any of them violate someone's eggshell-fragile rights, great and fine -- apologies can come later, after his duty is performed. I would much rather a mistake be made and "offend" someone than to be PC about it and another disaster occur.

Great and fine? Sorry not for me. I don't get to violate laws and just appolgize later. I don't want to see another disaster occur but I do want to see my rights upheld. Those rights are a promise from my government to me. In return for those promises I have responsiblities, but it is a two way street.

 

Not much different then when I hear people say, "Oh he got off on a technicality". Don't ever hear them say, "Oh he was convicted on a technicality". The law works both ways. It protects and defends. It gets to be used by both sides.

 

<rant>

I don't want to be PC about it either. But instead of bothering people who are citizens and not doing anything wrong other than looking strange, why don't we stop letting in people from areas of the world that historically has been a breeding ground for terrorists.

 

Nobody likes to hear that but I think it would slow down the flow. I have just grown sick and tired of seeing my rights trampled because we don't want to profile and stop people from coming here that may fit that profile. And don't kid yourself we can all see those pictures of what those highjackers looked like and guess what they all looked pretty much the same. But instead the PC crowd is fine with letting them in and then using our system and our rights to not be bothered because it would not be PC. Sorry I don't think those rights were ever meant to protect those that do not have some kind of stake in the system.

 

And if it causes a problem and they feel they are being singled out or are not comfortable then leave. Go home and stop enjoying all of the comforts that you came here for.

 

So yes things have changed. And sorry if you feel like most should not suffer because of just a few on the extreme. I saw too many people dancing in the streets in the mid east on 9/11 as well as in front of burning beheaded bodies swinging from a bridge. Put your own house in order before coming here and enjoying all this country offers while you talk about how we are evil infidels. And yes I know full well that most of this does not apply to by and large most of that community. But if it comes down to American citizens being bothered in the streets or someone that is not from here and happens to look like one of those people who's picture we have seen over the past couple of years, guess who's side I am going to take.

</rant>

 

There I feel better now.

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I get worried when I hear of these kind of things happening to you folks in the U.S, I always believed that most people have a objective view of every situtation that may arise. It seems that Americans are giving that objective view because the Goverment says it's in your best interest to do that, the Goverment will take care of you..just give up your rights.

I was planning to go to the US geocaching, but threads like these make me second guess my trip.

Live free or Die I believe is on Maryland's plates. But living in fear isn't really free.

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...If your intentions are good and you don't have an outstanding warrant, what's the harm? The safety of the public comes first -- and THAT is their job....

 

I had a friend in the pentagon ...

Thanks for breaking it down so even I could get it.

 

What you don't get is that we have rights for a reason. These rights are not to be broken for ANY reason. It is not your job, the job of the FBI, or that of the president to decide that these rights can be cast aside.

 

It is insulting for you to infer that you were the only one who was touched by 9/11. Many of us lost friends and relatives on that day (and since). The threat of terrorism is not sufficient, in my opinion, to throw away the rights that our forefathers fought and died for.

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But if it comes down to American citizens being bothered in the streets or someone that is not from here and happens to look like one of those people who's picture we have seen over the past couple of years, guess who's side I am going to take.

</rant>

 

There I feel better now.

Here's a news flash for you -- my wife is from India, but is a US Citizen. So to quite a few people, she "looks like a terrorist." So do my inlaws. I would wager that I get questioned at random five times more frequently than the average joe (The Alabama Rambler excluded) because of that. They don't have a problem with being asked questions, and neither do I.

 

It is insulting for you to infer that you were the only one who was touched by 9/11.  Many of us lost friends and relatives on that day (and since).  The threat of terrorism is not sufficient, in my opinion, to throw away the rights that our forefathers fought and died for. 

 

Insulting? Oh, please. I love how people see what they want to see on forums, and 'hear what they want to hear.' I did NOT infer that I was the only one touched. THAT is an insult, and you can take a flying leap for it. I did NOT say "throw away those rights." The POINT is: "try to be a bit more understanding about why the cops do it."

 

Geez.

Edited by joefrog
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