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Are These Forums An Accurate Representation


Monkeybrad

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At a meeting of Geocaching clubs recently these forums came up as a topic of discussion in relation to some of the upcoming rule changes. I was surprised at the level of negativity toward these forums that was exhibited. Now, I try to get around and talk to as many cachers as possible, in the real world, and I am constantly amazed at the number of them who are only marginally aware that these forums exist, or who have been here once or twice and got fed up and moved on. In my experience, the majority of active geocachers either have a negative view of these forums or no opinion on them, but the venom I heard surprised me.

 

I see this as a problem. Mainly because a very vocal minority of geocachers provide the majority of the feedback that Jeremy and TPTB receive. In further discussion it was brought up and generally aggred upon that a couple of hundred forum posters are essentially running this game, and that they are "creating and then fixing problems" that the folks on the front line do not view as problems. (ie. the "micro" problem, the "virtual" problem, the "locationless" problem)

 

I am not trying to start a fight here, but some of the complaints I heard rang true. The largest one was that many people who posted on the forums, were not "real" geocachers. That if you had a few thousand posts, but only a handful of finds, that you really should not be considered an authority on Geocaching. That having lots more posts than finds made you a forums expert, but that did not mean that you knew anything about Geocaching. That really seemed to be the biggest complaint.

 

But it got me to thinking, if many of those geocachers who are out there every weekend hunting caches are not posting here and they feel like those who are posting instead of caching should not represent them, then how accurate are these forums as a representation of the Geocaching community at large?

 

I try to make it a point to talk to every cacher I can, when I am out and about. I am particularly interested in what the quiet people, who just plod along quietly finding caches think about where this sport is going and where it should go. (In this case, I am speaking locally, and at the state level). I am constantly amazed to see the different viewpoints expressed by these "quiet folk". The word from the front lines is that Geocaching is doing fine, but many people are concerned about the direction things are going, from the de facto moratorium on virtuals, to the anti-micro campaigns, and to the pending loss of locationless finds. That really seems to be a hot button issue. No one seems to like the idea that we are going to lose finds from our Geocaching accounts, but I digress.

 

I am kind of throwing this out there to see what the forum participants think about this perception of our activites here, and if there is something we can do to try to either gain a wider viewership with the Geocaching public and there fore maintain a better representation of the game as a whole.

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It has always been said that these forums are not representative of the Geocaching community in general.

 

I'm kind of bothered by the class separation that your post would imply though. Just becuase I have +3000 posts to my <200 finds, you would place me in a class as not authoritative. I have more time to peruse the forums than I have for hunting caches. It really doesn't take that much time and can be handled in conjunction with other things while at the computer. The caches I tend to go for also take up most of the day to find a very small handful at best. Does that make me less knowledgeable or any less of a "real geocacher"? It will in your class division. You can't truly quantify a "real geocacher" by simple numbers. I think if a person has gone out and hunted one cache, they are a real geocacher... novice certainly, but a real geocacher none-the-less.

 

IF people want to have more say with feedback to Jeremy, then they should get their feet wet and post. It's that simple and I can't stress it enough. Even simpler... send e-mail. To sit and complain in the background they have no say over the ~200 regular posters is just a need to hear their own voices while literally doing nothing about it... except to complain. My take is, if you don't vote with your voice either by e-mail to TPTB or post in the forums, you're most likely to be unheard. Strange how that works but it is a concept that seems to work well most of the time.

 

Indeed, my opinion (right or wrong) about the regular posters on these forums, are people who are passionate enough about the sport they choose to be heard. They are vociferous enough they will end up representing the direction the sport goes in. Without these vocal people, it would seem Jeremy et al would likely have no feedback what-so-ever because the people who chose to complain without doing anything aren't providing any feedback to use anyway.

 

If the non-posters find this a problem... they need to get over not posting for whatever reasons they want to use and post.

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...it was brought up and generally aggred upon that a couple of hundred forum posters are essentially running this game, and that they are "creating and then fixing problems" that the folks on the front line do not view as problems. (ie. the "micro" problem, the "virtual" problem, the "locationless" problem)

 

I suggest that the forums are a poor representation of the total Geocaching community. I, too have talked with many cachers who either could care less about the forums, or despise them, or at least have negative perceptions of the goings on here.

 

However, I don't accept that a few hundred people are running the show. The number is far less than that. Just ask Jeremy. B):smile:

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I know dozens of names of cachers in my area, and only one of them uses the forums (and very infrequently at that).

 

Try lurking at the forums of local Geocaching organizations, e.g. the Texas one. You'll see that there are a lot of views and opinions that are quite different from what you usually read here.

 

So no, these forums are far from being representative.

Edited by as77
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I don't know if they are representative or not.

 

There is an expression I heard once that I thought rather stupid at the time. "Decisions are made by those who show up". Ideally in a democracy or in a concencus envrionment everyone would particiapte in the decision. But then if you try to get people to participate, they have other issues like life, work, paying the bills, and the issues that they do particiapte in taking up all their time.

 

In the end all you can do is encourage participation but then work with what you get, wheather its via a forum or a meeting. Those who don't participate have placed their faith (by default) with those who do.

 

When I finally participated in a group that had some power over city decisions and I saw how hard it was to get participation and opinions I realized why the phrase had been coined and it wasn't so stupid anymore. Just a fact.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I see this as a problem. Mainly because a very vocal minority of geocachers provide the majority of the feedback that Jeremy and TPTB receive.

You said this in "Do the regulars intimidate the posters?" and I responded to it there, too.

 

I'm not sure this is a problem. It's true that a community of tens of thousands is represented by a few hundred (give or take) regulars, but that doesn't mean the regulars aren't a good cross-section of geocachers in general.

Besides, even if they aren't, it's all Jeremy has to go on unless you can figure out a way to bring more voices to the forums.

 

Also, I'd better get back to the hunt. My post to find ratio is becoming dangerously close to even! B)

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At a meeting of Geocaching clubs recently these forums came up as a topic of discussion in relation to some of the upcoming rule changes.

What upcoming rule changes?

 

In my experience, the majority of active geocachers either have a negative view of these forums or no opinion on them, but the venom I heard surprised me.

 

True. Forums in general aren't for everyone.

 

In further discussion it was brought up and generally aggred upon that a couple of hundred forum posters are essentially running this game, and that they are "creating and then fixing problems" that the folks on the front line do not view as problems.  (ie. the "micro" problem, the "virtual" problem, the "locationless" problem)

 

These debates are here too.

 

The largest one was that many people who posted on the forums, were not "real" geocachers.  That if you had a few thousand posts, but only a handful of finds, that you really should not be considered an authority on Geocaching.  That having lots more posts than finds made you a forums expert, but that did not mean that you knew anything about Geocaching.  That really seemed to be the biggest complaint.

 

I don't know about "real geocachers" - I don't even know what that means. The majority of geocachers have less than 50 finds. Ubercachers are in the minority and I don't necessarily feel that they need to rule either.

 

I also agree that the loudest aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable. I've been around long enough to take that into consideration when defining new site features.

 

But it got me to thinking, if many of those geocachers who are out there every weekend hunting caches are not posting here and they feel like those who are posting instead of caching should not represent them, then how accurate are these forums as a representation of the Geocaching community at large?

 

Since I look to the forums as a feedback tool and not the sole location for defining Geocaching.com, I feel that most of the major issues are aired either by geocachers or the advocates of the silent majority.

 

I try to make it a point to talk to every cacher I can, when I am out and about.  I am particularly interested in what the quiet people, who just plod along quietly finding caches think about where this sport is going and where it should go. (In this case, I am speaking locally, and at the state level).  I am constantly amazed to see the different viewpoints expressed by these "quiet folk".

 

I do the same thing. Often I don't even tell people who I am so I can get an honest response. The folks I run into on the trail are different than the folks that are involved with the orgs, so I even get a different perspective there.

 

The word from the front lines is that Geocaching is doing fine, but many people are concerned about the direction things are going, from the de facto moratorium on virtuals, to the anti-micro campaigns, and to the pending loss of locationless finds.  That really seems to be a hot button issue.  No one seems to like the idea that we are going to lose finds from our Geocaching accounts, but I digress.

 

I don't know where you're getting your info but there is no plan to remove locationless finds. As for micros I don't foresee any changes for them either, and virtuals and locationless caches are getting their own feature set that will enhance this area and correct the issues that have occured by forcing a square peg in a round hole.

 

"I'm concerned about the future of x" is a general concern about anything. Will it get overcommercialized? Will it get too mainstream to be fun? Is it a passing fad? Concerns like these will always exist.

 

I am kind of throwing this out there to see what the forum participants think about this perception of our activites here, and if there is something we can do to try to either gain a wider viewership with the Geocaching public and there fore maintain a better representation of the game as a whole.

 

It's definitely more helpful than chirping crickets. Ancedotally I have found that most of the "< 50 find" geocachers don't really care about the politics in these forums. As long as they can occasionally do a zipcode search and have a nice fun day trip, they're pleased as punch.

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I'm a noob, and like Jeremy I'd like a commentary on "rule changes".

 

Having said that, it doesn't matter if the forums are a cross section of cachers or not. People will gravitate to what they find useful. I also participate in a Boy Scout forum, and the very few posters there are absolutely no way in heck a respresentation of Scouting in general. Both forums are useful and fun, so I'm here.

 

Its like the auto industry: Since I don't drive a BMW, the BMW club is useless to me. I'm still a car owner, just with differences.

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No the forums are not a very accurate representation of the Geocaching population...

{rant}

...but if people are going to complain about how they are not an accurate representation, so then decide not to post, that's their problem...

{/rant}

 

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on either a.) the forums or b.) Geocaching in general, however, I've got enough leadership experience to know that the masses should get together and do something instead of complaing about it and expecting the world to be perfect

 

{humor/sarcasm}

hmmm... wait... I don't think any of what I just said matters, since I have less than 50 finds and also less than 50 posts, so therefore i must be an unknowing n00b... B)

{/humor/sarcasm}

 

Happy Caching

Jeff

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Ancedotally I have found that most of the "< 50 find" geocachers don't really care about the politics in these forums. As long as they can occasionally do a zipcode search and have a nice fun day trip, they're pleased as punch.

On reflection, this is same impression I get.

 

What's ironic is when I met people I get different reactions. Let's just say that there are more locals who read the forums than I thought.

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I hope everyone understands, I am not saying that either side is right. I post here often enough that I guess I am one of the forum regulars. I have always heard most non posters refer to the forums in a negative manner, but this was the first time that I heard the complaint that "a couple of hundred folks who would rather write about Geocaching than get out and cache are running this sport." That is a quote and it was accepted as a fact by the rest of the group. All I am saying is that the perception is out there and that maybe we should do something to improve people's view fo these forums. Maybe they are wrong, maybe posting is where it is at, I was just curious as to how the rest of you felt about the negative perceptions.

 

I believe that these forums can be a valuable tool for the growth and enhancement of Geocaching, but if the majority of geocachers see it as a private club for posers, well then how effective can we really be? When we speak here do our words carry too much weight. Is it possible that a relatively small group of like-minded individuals constantly posting about how things "should" be, will eventually have an effect on Groundspeak policies.

 

To answer the question about rule changes. First off I would like for us to stay on the topic at hand and not turn into a rules discussion, so let's please do that. The ones that I remember off the top of my head had to do with a re-widening of event cache criteria, that more will be approved but that you cannot have two on the same day in the same region anymore. That micro series may be required to become multi-caches, to cut down on density of micros, to me this did not make sense, because we were also informed that every stage of a multi must be 528 from any other waypoint, including middle stages of other multis. We were informed that caches would consist of a logbook and a container from now on, no more magnets or stones you had to sign. We were also told that locationless caches were getting their own space and that the finds would come out of our counts when that happened. There was more, but I would have to concentrate harder and ask my wife what else we talked about. I was under the impression that these policies were being implemented this week. I think any further discussion of them should be in their own topic however.

 

Edit for clarity: If I misunderstood these changes, I would encourage Jeremy to correct me, I just did not want everyone else to get derailed talking about them. I also want to add that I agree with CR and add that lots of people lurk here, never say a word, but then report to others what an unpleasant place this can be.

Edited by Monkeybrad
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I'm so new to this stuff......

why do non-forum people really care what happens in the forums?

To me, it seems like the act of Geocaching can occur totally independently of any activity inside an internet forum.

 

I'm sure this will strike a chord, but why do numbers really matter?

I was lured into this by the concept of having another reason/excuse to get me out of the house and off my butt to go enjoy the great outdoors. Any quantatative reference would seem near moot to the experience itself....but that is just MY simple little opinion, after only 3 weeks of participating.

 

So, why does it matter what forum addicts do? Or what non-forum addicts do? Can't every individual enjoy it however way they choose, without the other?

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why do non-forum people really care what happens in the forums?

 

They probably fear that the squeaky wheels in the forum will get greased with undesirable changes to the web site or the rules/guidelines of the game. Jeremy has put that to rest.

 

I'm sure this will strike a chord, but why do numbers really matter?

 

They do and they don't. For us (Team Mule Ears, Amy and Scott) it's just fun to look at the stats and watch them grow. Round numbers (50, 100, 200...) are like mini-anniversaries and seem weirdly significant.

 

Can't every individual enjoy it however way they choose, without the other?

 

Absolutely, and that's the best attitude to take.

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That is a quote and it was accepted as a fact by the rest of the group. All I am saying is that the perception is out there and that maybe we should do something to improve people's view fo these forums.

Was this by folks in a heavily cache populated area?

 

Find counts are much easier to run up in some areas than ones that only have 1/8th the density.

 

We've found all the caches in our area exept for the few that have popped up in the last few weeks. If we want to cache with any frequency we have to travel. We've got better things to do than sit in car burning fuel for a few hours just so we can go caching every weekend. So, our numbers aren't nearly as high as some cachers in other areas. Yet, we're one of the top cacher's in the state--I can only think of 4 others that have found more caches than we have (that I know of.)

 

So are they comparing their stats with those much less populated areas and thus don't have the same opportunity to grab a cache or two whenever they feel like it?

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I am a moderator on a Catholic forum. Having spent 4 years doing that, it wasn't hard to realize that the views held by TPTB and the regulars weren't always a representation of the Catholic Church as a whole. It was a representation of the people that frequented that forum and grew from there.

 

No matter what forum you are on, you have to take it all with a grain of salt. Some things will be representative of the whole, and some not.

 

My advice is to go geocache and have a good time.

 

I don't come here for politics or debate, but for information. To that end, this forum fits the bill.

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You speak of forum users as a monolith, as if were all of one mind, bending the sport to our will. The reality is that the people here are nearly as diverse as the Geocaching community as a whole. No, it isn't a truly accurate representation because the visitors aren't random. That doesn't mean its not a good representation.

 

Most of the people who visit here care deeply about the sport and have opinions that they are willing to express and find this to be the best place to do so. Some of us visit more frequently than the community as a whole because we happen to have more face time in front of a computer than the average person.

 

As probably having the dubious distinction of being the post to find king here, I resent the idea that because I happen to have plenty of down time in front of a computer screen I'm not a "real geocacher". I'd be willing to put my experience against anybody's. Am I less of a geocacher than someone who has 2,000 finds of mostly urban park & grabs and one or two hides? I don't think so.

 

It's not the forum users who create problems. Forum users bring these problems to the attention of the community. I'd would argue that some problems are the result of people who don't visit the forums and don't have a clue as to what other geocachers are thinking (we know that all forum users trade up or trade even, so it must be the non-forum users who are leaving all the dirty golf balls B) ).

 

You use the term "the word from the front lines" as if forum users are a distinct entity, cloistered from the rest of the Geocaching community. You don't think we go to events? You don't think we join our fellow geocachers for group hunts? You don't think we have numerous friends and acquaintences throughout the Geocaching community? I argue that we have a better idea of what is going on because we visit " both worlds" rather than whining over a pitcher of beer with a dozen other locals (well some of us do that too).

Edited by briansnat
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That is a quote and it was accepted as a fact by the rest of the group.  All I am saying is that the perception is out there and that maybe we should do something to improve people's view fo these forums.

Was this by folks in a heavily cache populated area?

 

Find counts are much easier to run up in some areas than ones that only have 1/8th the density.

 

We've found all the caches in our area exept for the few that have popped up in the last few weeks. If we want to cache with any frequency we have to travel. We've got better things to do than sit in car burning fuel for a few hours just so we can go caching every weekend. So, our numbers aren't nearly as high as some cachers in other areas. Yet, we're one of the top cacher's in the state--I can only think of 4 others that have found more caches than we have (that I know of.)

 

So are they comparing their stats with those much less populated areas and thus don't have the same opportunity to grab a cache or two whenever they feel like it?

As you know CR, I am in much the same boat as you are, we have to travel to hunt, the only stuff we have within fifty miles or so is new. So trust me I feel your pain. In fact, it was while out of our regular area that we heard these complaints. The area has decent cache density.

 

I hope I did nto imply the wrong thing in my post. They were not comparing their finds to forum regulars and saying that they knew more about caching. It was more centered on that people with say less than a hundred finds, but several hundreds or even thousands of posts were regularly giving advice and trying to direct an activity that they honestly have very little experience with. For the record, it was not directed at any particular person, they just found it generally distasteful. Perhaps I should have not mentioned numbers here at all, let us say they were questioning the experience level of many regular forum posters.

 

It should also be mentioned that this was not a meeting of powercachers, the lowest number there had 8 finds and the highest had more than I do. But out of forty something people there were only 8 with over 1000 finds, and they were mostly silent on this point. It was really more centered on the 200-600 find crowd that has been doing this two to three years.

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Ancedotally I have found that most of the "< 50 find" geocachers don't really care about the politics in these forums. As long as they can occasionally do a zipcode search and have a nice fun day trip, they're pleased as punch.

On reflection, this is same impression I get.

 

What's ironic is when I met people I get different reactions. Let's just say that there are more locals who read the forums than I thought.

I have to agree, there are a lot of people that read the forums but don't ever do anything more than that. They know things going on and if you bump into them in daily life or via email you will see that.

 

The ones I meet on the trail (I'm up to about 6) are just luck and generally nice but I'm on the hunt and not in the forum so the encounters discussions are pretty much hello, what's your geo name, Ok I've read your logs!.

 

The ones who make the core local group now know each other through events. Of those Two posted in these forums regularly, and a few more in the local forums reguarly. Call it 10% of the core cachers.

 

Most who post infrequently are exactly as Jeremy said. Happy to find a cache every now and then.

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To answer the question about rule changes. First off I would like for us to stay on the topic at hand and not turn into a rules discussion, so let's please do that. The ones that I remember off the top of my head had to do with a re-widening of event cache criteria, that more will be approved but that you cannot have two on the same day in the same region anymore. That micro series may be required to become multi-caches, to cut down on density of micros, to me this did not make sense, because we were also informed that every stage of a multi must be 528 from any other waypoint, including middle stages of other multis. We were informed that caches would consist of a logbook and a container from now on, no more magnets or stones you had to sign. We were also told that locationless caches were getting their own space and that the finds would come out of our counts when that happened. There was more, but I would have to concentrate harder and ask my wife what else we talked about. I was under the impression that these policies were being implemented this week. I think any further discussion of them should be in their own topic however.

 

Edit for clarity: If I misunderstood these changes, I would encourage Jeremy to correct me, I just did not want everyone else to get derailed talking about them. I also want to add that I agree with CR and add that lots of people lurk here, never say a word, but then report to others what an unpleasant place this can be.

It seems the information is spotty at best. Your information is about current projects that we are working on, but the information was misrepresented.

 

I am currently working with the reviewer team on a guidelines revision our goal is to have less confusion with the review process. Not to implement any big changes.

 

We have someone currently working on a solution to Locationless caches and Virtual Caches. That will not have any effect on any of the previously approved locationless caches or virtual caches you may have found.

 

Any changes that are made to the site are officially released on the site. If you hear of information before those changes are made official then I would say the information was released prematurely and should not be considered as accurate.

 

In some cases site volunteers may have been given information of upcoming things, sometimes considered confidential and at other times they are told it is ok to discuss. But it is understood that information is always something that is a work in progress until it's official release on the site.

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