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Promoting Complimentary Sites


The Puzzler

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I am curious what the attitudes of the community and TPTB are toward posting links to, and discussing complimentary web sites.

 

What about competing web sites? Where is the line drawn between "complimentary" and "competing".

 

If I am active on waypoint.org and/or movingcache.com, neither of which compete directly with gc.com, but both of which overlap significantly in interest and therefore discussion potential, is it cool to discuss and promote these other sites in the context of geocaching. Is it okay to post links from personal gc.com pages to caches we may have listed elsewhere?

 

I seem to recall reading some guidelines regarding some of these issues, but don't recall the specifics. I also believe that, given the spate of new geocaching type sites in the last few months, further discussion of the finer points may be merrited.

 

I suspect this thread has the potential for some serious emotions. I'd like to see this thread be an attempt at understand each others possitions, and not be a debate over what is right and wrong with the possition of others (or the possitions of TPTB).

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In the past, the attitudes of TPTB have varied from deleting or moderating posts that mention competitors (and some other websites) to tolerating them.

 

It occurs to me that the general caching community posesses a sincere desire to become satiated with everything geo/GPS-related and demands that broader base of information.

 

As a result, this site allows, but does not usually encourage links to complimentary web sites.

 

Having said that, (I should stop now), I'll move along to another topic. :huh:

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In the past, the attitudes of TPTB have varied from deleting or moderating posts that mention competitors (and some other websites) to tolerating them.

Hi

 

Sort of off topic, but since it was mentioned here, may I ask what TPTB stands for?

 

Ohh, and on the topic, surely we are mature enough to allow relevant links to other sites and/or discussion when it relates to the purpose of these forums?

 

Regards

Andrew

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If its blatant advertising for a site ("hey this place sucks, check out www.cachecentral.com") they may have a problem with it. At one time Navicache was a banned word in the forums precisely because of that. They don't seem to have a problem with a reference to competing sites the course of a discussion these days.

 

As far as complimentary sites like waypoint.org, its a non issue.

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What complementary sites are there; the sites of regional geocaching groups associated with geocaching.com?

I would suggest that complementary sites are those that promote GPS use, but are not involved in the listing physical caches, or sites that involve the listing of physical caches that are not otherwise supported by geocaching.com

 

I would suggest that Navicach.com and terracaching.com are both attempting to compete directly with geocaching.com. And incidently, both seem to be driven primarily by cachers that are otherwise disenfranchised with geocaching.com.

 

I would suggest that the new movingcache.com is complimentary since they support only traveling caches which Groundspeak no longer supports (except a few that are grandfathered in).

 

Whereas gpsgames.org competes by listing the same general types of caches (and traveler tags) that geocaching.com does, but they also support a wide range of other gps activities that would be complimentary.

 

GPS Fun is a wonderful resouce for finding GPS and geocaching related sites, the vast majority of which would fit in the "complimentary" catagory.

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So, you would suggest that you are looking for websites that provide features or services "over and above" those available at geocaching.com, and/or websites that include features that are missing or in some way lacking on geocaching.com?

 

That might very well include some of the competing sites, but it would not necessarily include websites that say nice things about geocaching.com.

Edited by Bassoon Pilot
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So, you would suggest that you are looking for websites that provide features or services "over and above" those available at geocaching.com, and/or websites that include features that are missing or in some way lacking on geocaching.com? 

 

That might very well include some of the competing sites, but it would not necessarily include websites that say nice things about geocaching.com.

I'm not certain that I understand your post Bassoon.

 

I am not looking for anything personally. This thread was inspired by my interest in promoting movingcache.com as a source of traveling caches, since I am going to be listing a traveling cache on their site soon.

 

Further, discussions tied to some of the other competitive listing sites have been very harshly moderated (possibly for very good reasons, I don't know, as I do not try and follow the discussions or politics of geocaching.com in association with these other sites).

 

In the end, I am just curious how I would stand, and thought others might be interested in how they would stand, if they were excited about and wanted to tastefully promote something they were doing or saw on other sites and wanted to share that excitment in the Groundspeak forums, or with links from their personal information pages, or maybe links from relavent cache listings (i.e. a cache listing link to travellertags.com or the like).

 

It seems to me like Groundspeak would be well within their rights to limit some of this sort of thing, but not all of it. I suspect the community as a whole may have an opinion as well. It seems like a potentially gray area that could benifit from some discussion.

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I would suggest that Navicach.com and terracaching.com are both attempting to compete directly with geocaching.com

 

I'd have to argue terracaching.com being a direct competitor. Terracaching.com's mission statement is clearly stated on it's webpage is to

 

1. To create and support a semi-open community (herein referred to as "the community") of serious cachers who can, and will, behave and police themselves in a responsible manner, and recognize only the memberships of those cachers who support and uphold the mission.

2. To provide the community with tools that allow it to actively encourage and reward itself for placing high quality, enjoyable caches, and to mitigate the proliferation of caches the community feels are unnecessary or of low quality.

3. To provide the community with a unique list of caches, not listed elsewhere, that meet the communities high standards of quality.

4. To provide an atmosphere of friendly competition amongst community members.

 

Most terracaching members are members of gc.com too. I find terracaching to just be the next level of caching, with more challenging, funner, and just plain higher quality caches, without all the cheap, low quality caches that are placed on gc.com .

 

I don't know of almost anyone who has abandoned gc.com and gone to tc.com. That fact makes them complementary, or at least coexistent, but not competitors.

 

Thats just my thoughts and ramblings on the subject.

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I'd have to argue terracaching.com being a direct competitor.

Groundspeak could also say that terracaching is not a competitor because it is so small there is just no competition there.

 

BUT, I think that if I sell Schwinn bicycles and you sell Nishiki bicycles in the same town, we are still directly competing. Customers will visit both shops and buy from both shops. Heck the shop owners might even be good friends. But, it is still very direct competition. (I once met two competing bicycle shop owners from the Seattle area that were happily married, but still competed agressively with each other - crazy if you ask me)

 

I guess the question starts to lean toward whether it is friendly competition or not friendly competition. Does one dealer refer customers to the other if the customer wants a different opinion or selection of product. Or does one dealer ban reference to the competing business.

 

Obviously, Groundspeak is open to quite a bit of discussion, (kudos to TPTB). I was just curious what people thought about where or how the line was drawn. Obviously, the Nishiki dealer would not allow a their competitor to post a Schwinn advertizement in their window, but they might co-sponser events and/or post listings of used Schwinns if the shop in question didn't sell used Nishikis.

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I find terracaching to just be the next level of caching, with more challenging, funner, and just plain higher quality caches, without all the cheap, low quality caches that are placed on gc.com .

 

Do you really think a cache posted on any particular listing service means it's a higher quality cache? It's not where it's listed that makes a good cache, it's the person who hid it and the commitment they made to make it "more challenging, funner, and of higher quality".

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Do you really think a cache posted on any particular listing service means it's a higher quality cache? It's not where it's listed that makes a good cache, it's the person who hid it and the commitment they made to make it "more challenging, funner, and of higher quality".

The way terraching.com is structured, it does seem to encourage more quality because the people who approve your cache are local to you (or at least that's the plan...they still need a lot more members, first).

 

Whether it works remains to be seen. But the way they've structured it does help.

 

GeoBC

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I'd have to argue terracaching.com being a direct competitor.

Groundspeak could also say that terracaching is not a competitor because it is so small there is just no competition there.

 

BUT, I think that if I sell Schwinn bicycles and you sell Nishiki bicycles in the same town, we are still directly competing. Customers will visit both shops and buy from both shops. Heck the shop owners might even be good friends. But, it is still very direct competition. (I once met two competing bicycle shop owners from the Seattle area that were happily married, but still competed agressively with each other - crazy if you ask me)...

Time and again I've bumped into people blind as to what competition really is.

 

A while back I needed to put a bunch of stuff in storage. I went to two places near my home. One was 50 bucks and one was 100 bucks for the same size space. So I went to the who's owner I had met before and asked them if they were willing to match their competitions price. Just to give them a shot. They said they didn't consider them their competition and that they would not match the price (or give any type of discount at all). So I went to the competition and they didn't get my business. That of course left me scratching my head as to whether or not they grasped what competition was.

 

Terracaching, GPSGames.org, Navicache, Geocaching.com are all competitors. If everyone cross listed every cache on every site maybe that wouldn’t be the case. In general people who list on TC.com don’t cross list. Users of Navicache are purported to cross list quite a bit, but I know they don’t do it locally. There is one geocaching pie and it’s being split up. True GC.com has the biggest portion. I’ll leave my post off at that.

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Several have said that TC is not a competitor because it is there is no competition. I would agree that it is not a strong threat, but they are by definition, a competitor.

 

Indian Motorcycles still exist, but the stores aren't in every city as is Harleys and Hondas.

 

In RK's example, the one storage unit seem to do enough business without lowering prices. Perhaps they have an edge, such as location, marketing or other factor.

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Do you really think a cache posted on any particular listing service means it's a higher quality cache? It's not where it's listed that makes a good cache, it's the person who hid it and the commitment they made to make it "more challenging, funner, and of higher quality".

That's true but the point was about the overall quality of all the caches on a given listing service. TC strives to have caches as good as the ones you create, and its system has the potential for achieving that. By contrast, GC's system provides little incentive for placing a quality cache; the better ones, done by owners who care, are buried in the junk and it seems to be getting worse.

 

Alternate listing services are criticized for having too few caches--and that's true for now--but, ironically, the mass of caches on GC is one of its biggest problems because so many of them are low quality. I get quickly overwhelmed trying to choose caches to try on a trip. There are too many to even scan them all, and it is very discouraging when I pick a few that turn out to be duds. Some people will argue that "any cache is a good cache" but I don't see it that way. I want quality--I think you do too--and a listing service that promises no lame caches is worth a look.

Edited by bigeddy
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Some months ago I became aware of competing sites. I looked. I worried about asking others because I was afraid it would be a horrible thing to mention them. I used private messages to ask. I even put out a couple of free traveltags. If I lived in the right place, I might even use one of the sites. I don't. However, I have never seen anyone shot down for just mentioning (not soliciting or challenging, but mentioning) them.

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OK, so let's get to the point, guys. Jeremy locked a thread because it promoted the gps-fun.com site, and Jeremy thought it was a commercial venture, solicitation, etc. But looking at that site, I fail to see that it's commercial. It has a good collection of links and then there is this benchmarks stuff but it doesn't seem to be commercial either. So I think Jeremy was wrong. What do you all think?

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OK, so let's get to the point, guys. Jeremy locked a thread because it promoted the gps-fun.com site, and Jeremy thought it was a commercial venture, solicitation, etc. But looking at that site, I fail to see that it's commercial. It has a good collection of links and then there is this benchmarks stuff but it doesn't seem to be commercial either. So I think Jeremy was wrong. What do you all think?

If its not commercial then what is this?

 

GPS-Fun Benchmarks are for sale to individuals, organizations, and companies for $9.00 each (plus S&H)

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If its not commercial then what is this?

 

GPS-Fun Benchmarks are for sale to individuals, organizations, and companies for $9.00 each (plus S&H)

The reason I though it was not commercial is this sentence:

 

"These benchmarks will be available to individuals, organizations, and companies at cost (plus S&H)."

 

"At cost" means there is no profit for them, doesn't it?

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If its not commercial then what is this?

 

GPS-Fun Benchmarks are for sale to individuals, organizations, and companies for $9.00 each (plus S&H)

The reason I though it was not commercial is this sentence:

 

"These benchmarks will be available to individuals, organizations, and companies at cost (plus S&H)."

 

"At cost" means there is no profit for them, doesn't it?

The About Us page on the GPS-fun site presents the option for purchasing "trail-goodies" to offer support for those who maintain the site. I see no mention of whether these item are for profit or not, but between this and the benchmark sales, I can see how the site could be considered to be a commercial venture.

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We take the position that we have the right to decide whether something is commercial or isn't. If you have doubts, ask first. If you've been warned and continue to do it, we have the right to take action. Pretty simple.

 

We're also not stupid. If someone we know is posting questions just to bump topics promoting another web site, or posting to existing topics like this one to promote a competing site (whatever it is), we are aware of what they're doing and we can stop it if we want to. But it is our discretion to do so and does not set a precedent.

 

If you're looking for some rules about what is considered commerical, we don't do that for the sole reason that there are many folks here who enjoy exploiting these kinds of statements to make their own loopholes.

 

I have a high tolerance for innocent postings about other sites, but I do not appreciate veteran posters taking advantage of the goodwill here.

 

What I will say is you *should* only list links in your signature line to your own personal home page and not commercial sites. Your personal (noncommercial) home page is where you can post other interests. A signature line was not designed for your own personal ad space.

 

Lastly, we usually only take serious action when the commercial postings get out of hand. I'll watch this discussion closely to make sure this does not get out of hand.

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Hi,

 

I don't know how the thread shifted to being about GPS-Fun.com, but I will say that I completely support gc.com's right to say who is and who isn't commercial, and to shut threads that are inappropriately placed.

 

I personally don't think GPS-Fun.com is a commercial site...it's mainly a collection of links to fun gps recreation related sites all over the internet. The benchmark sub-domain is just something I wanted to do, and had 50 benchmarks made, and didn't want to lose a ton of money over a cool idea. There are some humorous links on the "About us" page that allows people to buy those of us who work on the site things like beef jerky or little debbie snacks, it is not mandatory in any way, and I would be surprised if anyone ever does it (I'm sorry this tweaked someone the wrong way).

 

At the end of the day, GPS-Fun.com is not looking to make money on the benchmark program, just hoping to offer another way for people to have fun with our GPSrs without myself personally having to spend hundreds of dollars to give away the things. I also liked the idea of offering/giving the benchmarks FREE to "Benchmarks" of the GPS recreation world (including gc.com, who never replied as to whether or not they want one).

 

If I posted in the wrong place, I'm sorry, and I won't do it again...is the "GPS Garage Sale" a better place? I've seen stuff being sold there constantly since before joining gc.com, so I've got to think that it's alright there (or am I wrong?).

 

sincerely sorry for any hassle or wrongdoing,

 

nfa-jamie

 

ps - I'm going to add this to any mentions of the site in the future if it will help...

Explore GPS-Fun for yourself, and please don't buy anything (unless you really, really, really want to)...just check out all of the cool links to help you explore the world of GPS recreation!

 

The site is non-commercial with the exception of the benchmark program which sells benchmarks for just enough to cover our expenses because we think it's a cool idea (if you don't want one, for god's sake don't buy one!)...nobody's making out with this site, I promise!!!

Edited by NFA
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The About Us page on the GPS-fun site presents the option for purchasing "trail-goodies" to offer support for those who maintain the site. I see no mention of whether these item are for profit or not,

Well, since they don't provide anything in return for those trail-goodies (it just says, give me $1 as support, and that's it), it's obvious that it is not commercial. On the contrary, asking for donations is a distinguising characteristics of non-profit organizations.

 

Of course, Jeremy can take the position that it is a commercial site. But I believe he's wrong.

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