Salem, Oregon

January 6, 2005

There's a lot in Salem, I see! I've found a couple, so far. But I'm curious as to why there's only one in Bush Pasture Park... and something like what, 13, in Minto Brown? I've spent some time ambling about BPP and playing croquet and looking at roses and taking photos, and there are definitely some other likely locations, I would think.

January 6, 2005

There used to be several( it seemed too many back then) in Bush park, and only one in Minto Brown!

I think the more natural setting at Minto Brown, and its relative size makes it easier to place a traditional cache that stands a chance at not getting plundered. In fact one of Salem's oldest, still existing caches is "Minto".

January 6, 2005

On a related note, I spoke with the folks at Salem Parks today, and they said that they do not currently have a policy in place concerning geocaching, although they are working on drafting one. I had to route through 3 different people on the phone before they found me someone who knew what geocaching was, heh. <_<

Part of the draft includes informing the Parks Operations Division of the location of the cache, and one possibility in their formal policy would be charging a permit fee (the quote I got was $15) for placing a cache in a Salem city park.

At first thought, it doesn't seem like such an incredibly bad idea- it would ensure people took their caches seriously and did a lot of caretaking and stuff, because it doesn't seem like people would want to lose that investment. However, it IS $15, and I imagine there are folks who would balk at it.

However, I'm still pretty new to geocaching. Any other thoughts?

1.8k · January 6, 2005

Thoughts? Yup. Use the frisbee rule instead of a permit process, and everyone should be happy.

What happens to a guy who places a cache without a permit? My guess: probably nothing.

January 6, 2005

Well I think that will certainly minimize the number of caches placed in city parks. If they actually "police" this, alot of those caches will disappear.

I have several caches in Benton county parks where I had to get a permit, but there was no fee. Not sure if I would have placed the cache or asked permission if there were a fee.

Apparently they are planning an event, so it sounds like they do want to somehow promote geocaching. Perhaps they want to promote their new fee program.

See this thread in the Portland forum:

Salem Events

If you are looking for a place to plant a cache, my advice is to plant caches in OR state or federal land- they allow geocaching as long as it doesn't cause any harm. (Just don't put any in the wilderness areas administered by the Detroit Ranger district-they monitor geocaching.com and have removed caches placed in Jefferson and Opal Creek wilderness.)

For example-The Shellburg falls (Santiam state forest) area- just south of Silver Falls state park has a new elaborate trail system that ODF has been working on for the past few years. It is a beautiful area with easy access from Salem that sees very few visitors. There is only one cache there, definitely room for more.

January 7, 2005

CFM is correct.. there used to be TONS of caches in Bush Park.. Really close to each other. It is my understanding that this was one of the primary reasons that Geocaching.com introduced the "minimum distance to another cache rule".

Wanderlost: Am I right or am I wrong about that one? :rolleyes:

January 7, 2005

CFM is correct.. there used to be TONS of caches in Bush Park.. Really close to each other. It is my understanding that this was one of the primary reasons that Geocaching.com introduced the "minimum distance to another cache rule".

Wanderlost: Am I right or am I wrong about that one?

Interesting to know how things can change in such a relatively short period of time! It's doubtful I'll end up placing a cache anytime soon (I need to find a person I can borrow who has a good GPS to bring along, before that can happen) but there was this just one particular place in BPPark that I love to go and hang out and cool my feet in the creek on a hot day and read a book- and I'd love to share it with others. :unsure:

January 7, 2005

Well I think that will certainly minimize the number of caches placed in city parks. If they actually "police" this, alot of those caches will disappear.

I have several caches in Benton county parks where I had to get a permit, but there was no fee. Not sure if I would have placed the cache or asked permission if there were a fee.

Apparently they are planning an event, so it sounds like they do want to somehow promote geocaching. Perhaps they want to promote their new fee program.

See this thread in the Portland forum:

Salem Events

If you are looking for a place to plant a cache, my advice is to plant caches in OR state or federal land- they allow geocaching as long as it doesn't cause any harm. (Just don't put any in the wilderness areas administered by the Detroit Ranger district-they monitor geocaching.com and have removed caches placed in Jefferson and Opal Creek wilderness.)

For example-The Shellburg falls (Santiam state forest) area- just south of Silver Falls state park has a new elaborate trail system that ODF has been working on for the past few years. It is a beautiful area with easy access from Salem that sees very few visitors. There is only one cache there, definitely room for more.

If the Parks guy calls me back again for some reason, maybe I should refer him to the Benton County parks folks- although I'm sure that they've already done that kind of research if they're working on a formal policy.

Thanks for the link to the forum discussion- I'd stumbled across a similar post that someone else suggested be continued elsewhere and looked for it, but couldn't figure out where it'd gone to!

Shellburg Falls sounds like a great place- I'll have to check it out just on its own merits, thanks. :rolleyes:

January 7, 2005

Thoughts? Yup. Use the frisbee rule instead of a permit process, and everyone should be happy.

What happens to a guy who places a cache without a permit? My guess: probably nothing.

Probably not, but they'd probably remove the cache if they found it. I like the idea of a no-fee permit process, much like the National Park Service's backpacking permit process (generally speaking- I think there might be a few high traffic areas that do charge fees on top of park entrance), and the National Forest Service wilderness backpacking/hiking permit process.

January 7, 2005

Oh, and one quick note chamois-shimi. If you want to get a whole years worth of geocaching adventure condensed in ONE WEEKEND, make sure you attend this years Champoeg event. To put it lightly... its awesome!

In addition to the PDX forums you are now familiar with, check out the Champoeg.com forums. They will heat up as the dates get closer.

We be a nutty bunch... the gathering at the park only proves it!

January 7, 2005

Oh, and one quick note chamois-shimi. If you want to get a whole years worth of geocaching adventure condensed in ONE WEEKEND, make sure you attend this years Champoeg event. To put it lightly... its awesome!

In addition to the PDX forums you are now familiar with, check out the Champoeg.com forums. They will heat up as the dates get closer.

We be a nutty bunch... the gathering at the park only proves it!

Wow, the things you never knew! Special K likes to play disc golf at Champoeg- been there a few times myself, on adjunct. :rolleyes:

January 7, 2005

I keep asking myself "What's wrong with geocaching? Why do some people feel it's necessary to get permissions to hide a box on public land? Why are some recreational activities OK, and others are not? Frisby is OK, even if I leave a frisby laying on the ground, but geocaching, where something is hidden from view is NOT ok, why is that? Why do geocachers continually give park departments reason to believe it's NOT ok to geocache, (you do that everytime you ask permission)?"

It sounds like Salem has is looking at a way to gleen a little more money. Why should geocaching be a fee permit and playing catch not? Why should I have to have a permit to place a geocache in Benton County, and not need a County Parks Permit to go into a park to go fishing?

I guess geocaching is something that needs governmental control, and as such, a way to produce more revenue for grovernmental agencies.

Byron

January 8, 2005

The minimun distance rule was in effect (although erratically enforced) before fivetrees (and others) started saturating Bush park.

At one point bush park had so many caches in it's small area that it lead to a request to stop adding any more.

Salem, OR - Bush Park is full

Thanks for the heads up on the parks department and fees, they had contacted me about discussing future organized caching events for salem. Keeping their hands out of our game should be part of the deal for our support.

Edited January 8, 2005 by nmartin

1.4k · January 8, 2005

Many factors led to the 1/10th of a mile rule, not just one park.

The best advice I can give you is find, find, find! Don't even think about placing your own cache for a while. Each cache you find teaches you something, from how to hide a cache so it won't get muggled to what kind of caches you prefer.

The more caches you find before you start to plan your first hide, the better chance you will have of creating a cache that people will enjoy for a long time.

January 8, 2005

I keep asking myself "What's wrong with geocaching? Why do some people feel it's necessary to get permissions to hide a box on public land? Why are some recreational activities OK, and others are not? Frisby is OK, even if I leave a frisby laying on the ground, but geocaching, where something is hidden from view is NOT ok, why is that? Why do geocachers continually give park departments reason to believe it's NOT ok to geocache, (you do that everytime you ask permission)?"

It sounds like Salem has is looking at a way to gleen a little more money. Why should geocaching be a fee permit and playing catch not? Why should I have to have a permit to place a geocache in Benton County, and not need a County Parks Permit to go into a park to go fishing?

I guess geocaching is something that needs governmental control, and as such, a way to produce more revenue for grovernmental agencies.

Byron

I think the main thing might be that someone placing a cache is installing a permanent fixture in the park, not just visiting and then leaving, taking all their things with them. People coming to look for the existing geocache aren't altering anything more than someone playing frisbee or soccer, but the placement of a geocache where it isn't wanted would, most likely, be seen as nothing more than littering to someone who doesn't understand the game and what it's about and what the cache is for.

I received another phone call from the Salem Parks folks today, from someone a bit higher up the food chain, and he said that in order to place a cache, I need to contact the guy in charge of events in the parks, fill out a permit, and pay a $15 fee. So it sounds like they're making it official. Maybe if this even they want to have gets off the ground, local geocache folks can speak with TPTB about that sort of thing.

It sounds as if they're making it kind of an arbitrary designation, instead of figuring out what geocaching really ought to fall under, because geocaching isn't an "event" any more than "walking through the park" is an event, really. Now, if a bunch of geocachers got together, reserved a picnic shelter, spent all day in the park, played games, hunted for caches, ate cupcakes and cheetos, and put up signs- that's an "event".

Seems like they need to hash this out a bit more, but I don't feel like I have the authority to speak to them about it, seeing as I'm awfully new to this whole thing.

January 8, 2005

Many factors led to the 1/10th of a mile rule, not just one park.

The best advice I can give you is find, find, find! Don't even think about placing your own cache for a while. Each cache you find teaches you something, from how to hide a cache so it won't get muggled to what kind of caches you prefer.

The more caches you find before you start to plan your first hide, the better chance you will have of creating a cache that people will enjoy for a long time.

I certainly won't be placing my first cache for a long time, since I don't have a GPS yet. :rolleyes: But it's fun to think about and plan for!

January 8, 2005

I keep asking myself "What's wrong with geocaching? Why do some people feel it's necessary to get permissions to hide a box on public land? Why are some recreational activities OK, and others are not? Frisby is OK, even if I leave a frisby laying on the ground, but geocaching, where something is hidden from view is NOT ok, why is that? Why do geocachers continually give park departments reason to believe it's NOT ok to geocache, (you do that everytime you ask permission)?"

It sounds like Salem has is looking at a way to gleen a little more money. Why should geocaching be a fee permit and playing catch not? Why should I have to have a permit to place a geocache in Benton County, and not need a County Parks Permit to go into a park to go fishing?

I guess geocaching is something that needs governmental control, and as such, a way to produce more revenue for grovernmental agencies.

Byron

I think the main thing might be that someone placing a cache is installing a permanent fixture in the park, not just visiting and then leaving, taking all their things with them. People coming to look for the existing geocache aren't altering anything more than someone playing frisbee or soccer, but the placement of a geocache where it isn't wanted would, most likely, be seen as nothing more than littering to someone who doesn't understand the game and what it's about and what the cache is for.

A cache is NOT a permanent fixture. It's simply abondoned property. As I see it the only difference between walking off and leaving a cheap cooler and leaving a geocache is, one is hidden and the other might not be hidden. Both are abondoned property. Therefore maybe it should be required that you have a permit to bring any personel property into a park. Makes about as much sense.

I don't recall letterboxing asking permission.

Why is geocaching different? Mainly because many geocachers think it's different, including gc.com. Therefore they feel the need to ask permission. Which gives the parks departments an excuse to do little more controlling, and possibility gain a little more revenue. If when frisbies were first invented people that had them felt the need to ask permission to use them in parks, there would be permits required for frisbie use.

January 8, 2005

I've started working with Corvallis Parks & Rec just recently on geocaching. They're having classes on GPS and GC in May (tentatively). I discussed placing a cache and was told that there's no firm policy right now, but one is in the works. They didn't mention a fee structure, but they might have cache owners fill out a request form and renew it each year just to make sure the cache is being maintained. They have concens about caches placed in ecologically sensitive areas: a stand of endangered plants with a cache in the middle! The man I talked to had just attended a national park & rec meeting and went to a seminar on GC. They discussed concerns like the one above, cache containers that look like pipe bombs, and cachers making trails in an area where a trail isn't desireable.

Someone here mentioned the "frisbee rule" and imho that's the sort of thing that'll get GC banned in parks. Yes, parks are public land, but we pay people to manage that land in the land's best interest so a small group can't ruin the park for everyone else. Leaving a cooler in a park doesn't cause as much of the above stated park concerns as a regularly-visited cache.

I'd appreciate feedback (please, please, no flame wars...) which I'll pass on to the park & rec folks here in Corvallis.

January 10, 2005

Someone here mentioned the "frisbee rule" and imho that's the sort of thing that'll get GC banned in parks. Yes, parks are public land, but we pay people to manage that land in the land's best interest so a small group can't ruin the park for everyone else.

Please answer the question, "what's wrong with geocaching that requires permission?"

So far nobody has answered that question.

What makes it different than many other forms of recreation? Why is geocaching different than letterboxing?

Here's Letterboxing RULES.....

Respect the land when hunting boxes and when hiding them. Don't place a box that requires people to tramp through sensitive wildlife or plant habitat to find it, for example. Warn hunters of possible hazards in the area of the box in your clue notes. Use common sense. If you have any doubts, ask the landowner or manager, or simply choose another location for your activities. Adopt the Leave No Trace principles of outdoor etiquette. Remember, some lands have restrictions on land use; know them and observe them.

Taken from the Letterboxing web site. But then I guess geocaching is different.

OH and here's one in Bush Park yup, this letterboxing box

Now that that's said. I think that we bring about problems by asking for them. Simply insisting that premission be given when not needed gives the impression that something's wrong with geocaching. (Maybe there is)

January 11, 2005

Someone here mentioned the "frisbee rule" and imho that's the sort of thing that'll get GC banned in parks. Yes, parks are public land, but we pay people to manage that land in the land's best interest so a small group can't ruin the park for everyone else.

Please answer the question, "what's wrong with geocaching that requires permission?"

So far nobody has answered that question.

What makes it different than many other forms of recreation? Why is geocaching different than letterboxing?

Here's Letterboxing RULES.....

Respect the land when hunting boxes and when hiding them. Don't place a box that requires people to tramp through sensitive wildlife or plant habitat to find it, for example. Warn hunters of possible hazards in the area of the box in your clue notes. Use common sense. If you have any doubts, ask the landowner or manager, or simply choose another location for your activities. Adopt the Leave No Trace principles of outdoor etiquette. Remember, some lands have restrictions on land use; know them and observe them.

Taken from the Letterboxing web site. But then I guess geocaching is different.

OH and here's one in Bush Park yup, this letterboxing box

Now that that's said. I think that we bring about problems by asking for them. Simply insisting that premission be given when not needed gives the impression that something's wrong with geocaching. (Maybe there is)

I guess I don't see filling out a form to place a cache meaning that something is wrong with geocaching. I fill out forms every time I visit my doctor, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with my medical care.

As a horticulturist I can understand why the parks don't want a cache in the middle of an endangered plant, or under the nest of an endangered bird. But I don't have the expertise to recgonize every endangered species, so I must rely on those who can to tell me what to avoid. Part of my enjoyment of geocaching is seeing the world around me. I'd hate to place my cache in a spot where something beautiful has been ruined because of my actions.

I'm glad to see some discussion on this topic as I think it'll impact the future of geocaching. Opinion wanted: should I start this thread in the gc topics forum?

January 11, 2005

As a horticulturist I can understand why the parks don't want a cache in the middle of an endangered plant, or under the nest of an endangered bird. But I don't have the expertise to recgonize every endangered species, so I must rely on those who can to tell me what to avoid. Part of my enjoyment of geocaching is seeing the world around me. I'd hate to place my cache in a spot where something beautiful has been ruined because of my actions.

I'm glad to see some discussion on this topic as I think it'll impact the future of geocaching. Opinion wanted: should I start this thread in the gc topics forum?

Thanks for your reply.

You said you're a horticulturist. In that case you probably know a little about endagered species. If I'm not mistaken there most city and county parks have been cleared of most native species including endangered species. Therefore the likely hood of placing a cache in a bed of endangered plants is pretty low. My guess, and this is just my guess, the likely hood of kids playing hide and seek trampling those plants is about as likely as a cache place in amongst the.

The same thing hold true for hiding under a nest.

One of the things that I find interesting is the number of visits to a particluar cache in a year. It doesn't appear to be all the high in most cases. There are, of course, exceptions. Now look at how many visits to a particular park for non-geocachers. Look at number of dogs running around any park. The wear and tear by non-geocacher and their dogs, I believe in more damaging that geocachers. (Please, I don't mean to offend dog owners)

Kids don't have to have a permit to play hide and seek. I don't have to have a permit to have a picnic. It appears the geocaching and group events are the only things that require permits. Strange, eh/

January 11, 2005

Kids don't have to have a permit to play hide and seek. I don't have to have a permit to have a picnic. It appears the geocaching and group events are the only things that require permits. Strange, eh/

I think that when I get around to hiding a cache, I would rather that the folks in charge of the land I'm putting it on know it's there than don't know it's there. That way, if an employee finds it they'll (hopefully) leave it in place rather than taking it to lost and found like they (rightly) would any abandoned property... or throwing it away, instead. If another recreationist on the land finds it and they turn it in, the land manager will know what it is and why it's there, instead of just shrugging and chucking it. And also, hopefully, if someone reports a suspicious-looking box under a tree, the land manager won't send in the SWAT team to blow it up.

Perhaps an overly optimistic expectation, but one can hope. :laughing:

January 11, 2005

I think that when I get around to hiding a cache, I would rather that the folks in charge of the land I'm putting it on know it's there than don't know it's there. That way, if an employee finds it they'll (hopefully) leave it in place rather than taking it to lost and found like they (rightly) would any abandoned property... or throwing it away, instead. If another recreationist on the land finds it and they turn it in, the land manager will know what it is and why it's there, instead of just shrugging and chucking it. And also, hopefully, if someone reports a suspicious-looking box under a tree, the land manager won't send in the SWAT team to blow it up.

Perhaps an overly optimistic expectation, but one can hope.

You do have a point there. However I've always considered a cache that I've placed as abandoned property. I understand that anybody that finds it can do with it what ever they please. I consider that I have given up ownership. Now that doesn't mean that I don't maintain, etc. It's more of a mental point of view. By doing this I've aknowledged that I no longer have any control over what happens to it. Therefore if anybody, park people, mugglers, or geocachers decide to destroy it, I can't stop that. I also can't stop somebody from calling the bomb squad. The only thing I can see that getting permission or insisting on a "policy", does is allow the park people to set rules and maybe collect fees. If a cache is hidden well it won't be found by park people, mugglers, etc. and maybe not by some geocachers, and therefore not a problem. If isn't hidden well enough that it is found by other than geocachers and destroyed, maybe that's what needs to happen.

Salem, Oregon

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