Appeal Cache

January 6, 2005

Virtuals are more like Cheetos at a nice steak restaurant.

nuff said?

What has that to do with this thread?

Exactly, welcome to planet America

9.4k · January 6, 2005

I have just made all of my current caches inactive until I decide what further action I should take, I do this as a protest for the archiving of the Tsunami Appeal Cache

Likewise - bring on AussieCaching so we can do our own thing without all this Yankcentric crap.

How is it Yank-centric to not allow any fundraising caches in the world? You must be under the mistaken impression that we allow them in every park in the US.

January 6, 2005

I have just made all of my current caches inactive until I decide what further action I should take, I do this as a protest for the archiving of the Tsunami Appeal Cache

Likewise - bring on AussieCaching so we can do our own thing without all this Yankcentric crap.

How is it Yank-centric to not allow any fundraising caches in the world? You must be under the mistaken impression that we allow them in every park in the US.

Its ok for an american fund raiser but not for anyone else to have one...

38.2k · January 6, 2005

Here here ... most Australians on the gc.com.au fora have found the response to Piggy's cache particularly galling, especially in view of the virtual cache listed after 9-11 (GC1C90) where Jeremy himself encouraged people to give to the Red Cross if they couldn't give blood.

Its ok for an american fund raiser but not for anyone else to have one.

You have to remember that 9/11 was 9/11/2001. There are MANY kinds of caches that are not deemed acceptable today that were allowed 3 years ago. I recall other charity caches back then, but along the way they decided that Geocaching.com's mission was to support the game of geocaching and not be a vehicle for solicitiation, no matter how worthy the cause.

This cache and the thread associated with its closing show the sound reasoning behind that decision. As worthy as the cause of Tsunami relief is, there were people questioning some of the organizations that were receiving the donations. Many people are uncomfortable with UN administered charities (like UNICEF) because of their propensity for corruption and some are against supporting leftist oriented charities like Oxfam and Médecins Sans Frontières, where some of these donations have gone.

There have been caches for many wonderful causes that have been turned down recently, each with some controversy. Do we really want our admins becoming the arbiter of what causes are worthy and which are not? Heck, there are enough issues with their approving regular caches, which are their supposed area of expertise.

Edited January 6, 2005 by briansnat

2.7k · January 6, 2005

of.... wait for it.... 9 whole times

Just wondering if you realise that you sound like an arrogant pr1ck with these kind of catch phrases.

Ditto with your 'riiiiight' in you previous post.

Fine if you feel that way, but it doesn't make me wrong. I find equally galling the attitude of people who attack geocaching.com at the slightest, and usually pathetic, little perceived offense.

The point I am making is that you are losing your point by showing such attitude..

And 2 wrongs still dont make a right.. think about it.. just some friendly advise..

I don't feel I am being arrogant. From my point of view, people are ignoring facts for the purpose of attacking Geoaching and/or America. Neither is perfect, but to listen to some of these people, it is the end of thw world, or some kind of war crime for which everyone who disagrees should be prosecuted.

How you perceive my responses is unfortunate, but that I cannot control. I am merely attempting to talk through a brick wall. Sometimes it takes bluntness.

January 6, 2005

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD... GC is NOT A FUNDRAISING WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!! It is a GAME WEBSITE.

LEEK, I feel for you and admire your passion but you are doing yourself and tsunami appeal a disservice by getting angry.

Using a cache is actually very limiting because it is *only* reaching geocachers most of whom have probably already donated anyway...

I recommend contacting ninemsn, altavista, google, hotmail and any other prominent website and ask them to put a banner on there prompting people to donate to a charity of their choice in a manner of their choice (some people might not be in a position to give money).

Having said that I dare say they already have those appeals in there... with links to the charity websites.

2.7k · January 6, 2005

Incidentally, according to the morning news here, private donations from Americans have exceeded 200 million, in addition to the 350 million from the US government.

Stupid, US-centric Planet-Americans.

January 6, 2005

Agree with the following comment by Bronze

Edited January 6, 2005 by Lt. Sniper

January 6, 2005

I would like to withdraw my comments about America and their continued search for Oil in other countries. It's not relevant and productive.

I would like to second Toolkits thoughs and say seperation from Geocaching.com is unproductive and not what I would like to see. I can see no good coming from this thread really.

What i would like see happen is the general acceptance of Geocaching to not support threads like Piggies but actually allow a collective link like Yahoo and Google for Geocachers to donate to the Tsunami Victims. Since I spend %80 of my net time at Geocaching and related forums then it is a great opportunity to donate via geocaching.

All countries are doing a great job in Asia. Apart from the death and destruction the good will shown by Western Nations may even bring about more peace. I don't think Aussies bagging the Yanks are going to do any good.

By the way - your called Yanks for a reason you know :angry: .

Bronze.

2.7k · January 6, 2005

of.... wait for it.... 9 whole times

Just wondering if you realise that you sound like an arrogant pr1ck with these kind of catch phrases.

Ditto with your 'riiiiight' in you previous post.

Fine if you feel that way, but it doesn't make me wrong. I find equally galling the attitude of people who attack geocaching.com at the slightest, and usually pathetic, little perceived offense.

The point I am making is that you are losing your point by showing such attitude..

And 2 wrongs still dont make a right.. think about it.. just some friendly advise..

I don't feel I am being arrogant. From my point of view, people are ignoring facts for the purpose of attacking Geoaching and/or America. Neither is perfect, but to listen to some of these people, it is the end of thw world, or some kind of war crime for which everyone who disagrees should be prosecuted.

How you perceive my responses is unfortunate, but that I cannot control. I am merely attempting to talk through a brick wall. Sometimes it takes bluntness.

Wow, an Americans who knows what a war crime is.....

Someone should tell those people in Guantanamo to watch out...

Said the man who's username indicates a fondness for stalking and killing people.

January 6, 2005

How you perceive my responses is unfortunate, but that I cannot control. I am merely attempting to talk through a brick wall. Sometimes it takes bluntness.

This is what I'm trying to tell you your bluntness just makes people add more bricks to that wall.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle, I have tried to point this out many times on many forums, but it seems to be part of the culture of mainstream USA :angry:

Pity since I know a lot of americans and most are really nice people...

9.4k · January 6, 2005

Let's clear up some erroneous information (again)

1. I find it rather sad that certain geocachers (who appear in this thread) have nothing better to do than hunt down caches which may possibly fall outside the guidelines specified by gc.com and debate them endlessly with other geocachers with similar anal retentive tendencies!!!

It's every cacher's responsibility to maintain the standards of this game. That means that if they find a cache that doesn't appear to meet the guidelines, they are allowed to discuss it in the forums, post a Should be Archived log, email their reviewer, email Groundspeak, etc.

2. I find it extremely insulting that certain geocachers (who appear in this thread) accused me and other geocachers of only donating $2000 to the charity so that we could gain a smiley!!! (Apology please...)

If you want to donate $2000 to this worthy cause, great. I wish I was in the same financial position. More power to you. Would you still give that much if you didn't get a smilie? Then why do you need a cache page for it? That's a double-standard.

3. I find it a great shame that Groundspeak has bowed to pressure from the peanut gallery and archived this very well meaning and very productive cache… In the 24 hours it was on the air it raised $6500 – that almost half the amount that the generous US president has donated!!!

No, the US President offered $350 MILLION from the government. My own company offered $1 million and is also matching employee contributions. I'd rather donate through my company where it counts as double and get no recognition than get a smilie for it.

4. I find it extremely hypocritical that Groundspeak bent the rules for the 9-11 Donate Blood cache, and indeed actively supported it (Link to Jeremy's Log), and that local UK approvers were allowed the latitude to approve caches to support Children in Need.
Yet we Australians are not allowed to have a cache that aims to support victims in our region… Victims of the greatest human tragedy ever known… Over 5,000,000 affected...

The Blood drive cache was setup in 2001, over 3 years ago. There were no guidelines that addressed charities at that time. No rules were bent to get the blood drive cache approved. The guidelines have changed since then.

January 6, 2005

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD... GC is NOT A FUNDRAISING WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!! It is a GAME WEBSITE.

But Geocachers are a community, and it is communities that make a difference in these things. As has been stated by others, perhaps for those of us who are unhappy with these rules it is time for us to move on as "GC.com" no longer appears to the community it was and seems to be a lot more focused on the ".com" :angry:

2.7k · January 6, 2005

How you perceive my responses is unfortunate, but that I cannot control. I am merely attempting to talk through a brick wall. Sometimes it takes bluntness.

This is what I'm trying to tell you your bluntness just makes people add more bricks to that wall.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle, I have tried to point this out many times on many forums, but it seems to be part of the culture of mainstream USA

Pity since I know a lot of americans and most are really nice people...

And here comes the America bashing. Because noone else in the world could possibly be arrogant.

January 6, 2005

Do we really want our admins becoming the arbiter of what causes are worthy and which are not?

Why not let them all through and show the world that we are a community that cares.

2.7k · January 6, 2005

Do we really want our admins becoming the arbiter of what causes are worthy and which are not?

Why not let them all through and show the world that we are a community that cares.

Excellent idea. My local branch of the KKK needs some funding. This extreme example is why geocaching.com can't do this. Where do you draw the line?

Edited January 6, 2005 by New England n00b

1.5k · January 6, 2005

I agree that the posts regarding "profiting from death" by claiming a smiley were way overboard, but I think everyone is missing the original intent of the topic questioning that cache.

There have been MANY charity cache denied recently in the US and several people questioned why, if the stance of GC.com is to not allow charitable solicitation caches, this one was approved....the original poster was questioning THAT double standard.

Personally, I think that the positive PR that could be generated by geocachers worldwide is worth developing a list of approved charities that could have caches (events or otherwise). Would there then be arguments over getting more charities on to the list?

Yes, but there would be less heated arguments if the intent was to keep out "uncle joe's college fund" or the KKK than accusing TPTB, Americans, or factions of geocachers of being insensitive misers.

If other major corporations can create list of charities that they will match employee donations and those they won't, I think such a site could be created for caching.

That being said, if the rules....err, "guidelines" here say you can't have solicitations associated with caching, then cachers will either need to donate on their own or link to pages from their cache descriptions to show people where they can donate.

January 6, 2005

Said the man who's username indicates a fondness for stalking and killing people.

playing the man instead of the ball is not only very poor form it also just weakens your case, it means you have no arguments left..

January 6, 2005

Incidentally, according to the morning news here, private donations from Americans have exceeded 200 million, in addition to the 350 million from the US government.

Stupid, US-centric Planet-Americans.

Population of Australia

20,238,887

Population of USA

295,196,059

Australia government has donated $1 Billion and the Australian public over $100 Million.

Work out the sums and see why we are so passionate about this!

9.4k · January 6, 2005

I have just made all of my current caches inactive until I decide what further action I should take, I do this as a protest for the archiving of the Tsunami Appeal Cache

Likewise - bring on AussieCaching so we can do our own thing without all this Yankcentric crap.

How is it Yank-centric to not allow any fundraising caches in the world? You must be under the mistaken impression that we allow them in every park in the US.

Its ok for an american fund raiser but not for anyone else to have one...

Go back and read the thread from the beginning, then see if you can find one other charity-cache approved in the last, say, 6 months. No, it's not ok to allow US charities, and no, it's not ok to allow non-US charities to have caches. Neither type gets approved. You're comparing the tsunami cache of 2004 to the blood drive of 2001. Pay attention

January 6, 2005

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD... GC is NOT A FUNDRAISING WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!! It is a GAME WEBSITE.

That's the thing. You wouldn't submit geocaches for listing on a fundraising site, would you?

Please keep in mind that there are many things besides 9/11 appeals for blood that were posted on this site in the past. There were vacation caches, manhole covers as virtual caches, mailboxes as locationless caches, traveling caches that ended up where caches were banned, event caches that had nothing to do with geocaching events, caches near RR tracks, etc., etc.

The site discovered that these were not a good idea. Some were allowed to remain as grandfathered caches, others were archived, but the rules were ammended over the years to preclude others from being posted.

There is no shortage of places to donate to help those who suffered from this terrible tragedy. Please keep geocaching out of it.

~erik~

January 6, 2005

Andrew

There's a

big list of them here

Yeah - Good on ya Sax.

How about you give us a link that works.

At least Piggy's thread worked until the US administration shut it down.

Bronze

January 6, 2005

How you perceive my responses is unfortunate, but that I cannot control. I am merely attempting to talk through a brick wall. Sometimes it takes bluntness.

This is what I'm trying to tell you your bluntness just makes people add more bricks to that wall.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle, I have tried to point this out many times on many forums, but it seems to be part of the culture of mainstream USA

Pity since I know a lot of americans and most are really nice people...

And here comes the America bashing. Because noone else in the world could possibly be arrogant.

Please explain where I a ) bash america B ) claim nobody else could be arrogant.

You are clearly twisting my words :angry:

I merely point out an observation I made... it was ment as constructive critisism..

Sadly enough by acting this way you are proving the point of the people you are arguing with..

Edited January 6, 2005 by ToolkiT

January 6, 2005

Go back and read the thread from the beginning, then see if you can find one other charity-cache approved in the last, say, 6 months. No, it's not ok to allow US charities, and no, it's not ok to allow non-US charities to have caches. Neither type gets approved. You're comparing the tsunami cache of 2004 to the blood drive of 2001. Pay attention

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=geocache+%22fundraising

They exist, some are more subtle than others such as event caches.

We are just going over the same ground, and unless you are an approver with inside knowledge of the interpretaion of the guidelines we are playing semantics at this stage :angry:

cheers Darren :angry:

January 6, 2005

next it will be opened up to advertising...

Buy a hotdog from uncle joes hotdog stand and 10c from every hotdog goes to charity...

where will it end... it won't, so don't start it... :angry:

9.4k · January 6, 2005

There's a
big list of them here

Yeah - Good on ya Sax.

How about you give us a link that works.

At least Piggy's thread worked until the US administration shut it down.

Bronze

Sorry about the link, it goes to the off-topic forum which is premium members only. Here is a list of the links on that page:

List of organizations accepting donations (thanks to WH for the links):

UNICEF

Mercy Corps

International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies

Doctors Without Borders

CARE

AmeriCares

Action Against Hunger

ADRA International

American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee Inc

Catholic Releif Services

Christian Children's Fund

Church World Service

Direct Releif International

Food For The Hungry Inc

International Aid

International Medical Corps

International Rescue Committee

Lutheran World Releif

Project Concern International

Save The Children USA

World Concern

Edited January 6, 2005 by Team GPSaxophone

January 6, 2005

next it will be opened up to advertising...

Buy a hotdog from uncle joes hotdog stand and 10c from every hotdog goes to charity...

i just got my weekly cache notification - it was advertising discounted geocaching.com calendars

i suggest that this message be changed to a link to donate, much like other major sites

January 6, 2005

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD... GC is NOT A FUNDRAISING WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!! It is a GAME WEBSITE.

Good one Canyonero. GAME GAME GAME GAME GAME !!!

No one is going to win at this.

The last thing we need is a US vs Australia geocaching cat fight.

Everyone for the sake of GeoCaching ...

P L E A S E - J U S T - L E T - I T - G O ! ! !

---

Jeremy

TeamGeoCoopers@jezza1.com

9.4k · January 6, 2005

Go back and read the thread from the beginning, then see if you can find one other charity-cache approved in the last, say, 6 months. No, it's not ok to allow US charities, and no, it's not ok to allow non-US charities to have caches. Neither type gets approved. You're comparing the tsunami cache of 2004 to the blood drive of 2001. Pay attention

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=geocache+%22fundraising

They exist, some are more subtle than others such as event caches.

We are just going over the same ground, and unless you are an approver with inside knowledge of the interpretaion of the guidelines we are playing semantics at this stage

cheers Darren

I looked though the first 4 pages from that link and didn't see one that linked to a cache page on geocaching.com

If you know of a specific fundraising cache that was approved in the last 6 months, let me know.

9.4k · January 6, 2005

next it will be opened up to advertising...

Buy a hotdog from uncle joes hotdog stand and 10c from every hotdog goes to charity...

i just got my weekly cache notification - it was advertising discounted geocaching.com calendars

i suggest that this message be changed to a link to donate, much like other major sites

I have no problems with TPTB changing the weekly cache notification to ask for donations to Tsunami relief

January 6, 2005

next it will be opened up to advertising...

Buy a hotdog from uncle joes hotdog stand and 10c from every hotdog goes to charity...

i just got my weekly cache notification - it was advertising discounted geocaching.com calendars

i suggest that this message be changed to a link to donate, much like other major sites

Now there's an idea... use an appropriate method for constructive fundraising...

like i said, a geocache is not the tool for the job... however an advertising medium is another story...

I guess every geocacher could put a note on their cache pages asking to donate but like all of this stuff, if you get bombarded with "crap" you stop listening after a while... :angry:

January 6, 2005

next it will be opened up to advertising...

Buy a hotdog from uncle joes hotdog stand and 10c from every hotdog goes to charity...

i just got my weekly cache notification - it was advertising discounted geocaching.com calendars

i suggest that this message be changed to a link to donate, much like other major sites

Good idea, or at least add a link, that would make all parties happy I think..

January 6, 2005

I have no problems with TPTB changing the weekly cache notification to ask for donations to Tsunami relief

i'm glad we agree on this. i would appreciate you changing it.

out of interest, why do you think it's okay to put a solicitation in a cache notification but not a cache?

2.7k · January 6, 2005

I have no problems with TPTB changing the weekly cache notification to ask for donations to Tsunami relief

i'm glad we agree on this. i would appreciate you changing it.

out of interest, why do you think it's okay to put a solicitation in a cache notification but not a cache?

Saxman doesn't have THAT much power! :blink:

January 6, 2005

I have no problems with TPTB changing the weekly cache notification to ask for donations to Tsunami relief

Finally it gets through-

That huge list you provided - it needs to be linked to by Geocaching.com

"Are you a geocacher - do you want to donate to the Tsunami Disaster then click here----->

Now onto the caches for your area..."

Thats all that is needed.

Now finally we agree can we all go caching.

Bronze.

PS: by the way, who has the stalker name?

January 6, 2005

This is the cache page:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...a7-48bf6904ea98

Bronze.

Unfortuately we didn't get the $15,000 but hey, the night is still young.

January 6, 2005

This greedy, selfish, egocentric American made a donation to tsunami relief. Then I filled out my companies "matching gifts" paperwork where they are matching my donation dollar for dollar. Now there's twice as many US$ heading to those who need it.

My company also has manufacturing plants in Sri Lanka, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The company has been making large donations of cash, volunteer man-hours, and materials at the local level to help.

A team from executive management is also headng to the area to see what else we can do to help.

Stupid, arrogant, greedy, selfish Americans that we are.

January 6, 2005

What do you manufacture Runaround? - sneekers with a swoosh.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :blink:

38.2k · January 6, 2005

Incidentally, according to the morning news here, private donations from Americans have exceeded 200 million, in addition to the 350 million from the US government.

Stupid, US-centric Planet-Americans.

Population of Australia

20,238,887

Population of USA

295,196,059

Australia government has donated $1 Billion and the Australian public over $100 Million.

Work out the sums and see why we are so passionate about this!

The $200 million donated by the citizens of the US is a 2 day old number. Most relief organiztions are complaining that donations are coming in too fast for them to handle. I also have no doubt that when all is over, the US will have provided, by far, the most aid.

There is already a carrier task force on site delivering aid to the stricken. 24x7 helicopter flights bringing water and food to remote areas and millions of dollars are pouring in from the US government and citizens. All to aid a people, many of whom were dancing in the streets with glee after 9/11. If that isn't charitable, I don't know what is

January 6, 2005

Wow! Just read the entire thread. Read it because the UK Tsumani cache has been archived even though it was a real cache and there was no compunction for anyone to donate. I find that extremely bizarre. Why does it matter if a cache promotes a non-profit making cause? Would I care if similar caches were set up to promote donations to say fox hunting in the UK or the NRA in the US (both of which I strongly disapprove)- of course not- I wouldn't visit them. Quite easy really..

9.4k · January 6, 2005

I have no problems with TPTB changing the weekly cache notification to ask for donations to Tsunami relief

i'm glad we agree on this. i would appreciate you changing it.

I can't change it myself, I'm just a forum moderator. That's up to the Groundspeak Staff.

out of interest, why do you think it's okay to put a solicitation in a cache notification but not a cache?

Caches need to conform to a set of guidelines. What is fair for one is fair for all. If the company supports a particular cause, then the company should be posting it for all to see. The best way to tell all geocachers about a particular cause would be in the weekly cache notification. Cache pages are only viewed by people looking in that narrow area (based on the coords, country, etc)

January 6, 2005

Then I filled out my companies "matching gifts" paperwork where they are matching my donation dollar for dollar. Now there's twice as many US$ heading to those who need it.

(assuming that this thread survives another hour *chuckle*, I can see a closure comming on)

Imagine that 10 other greedy, selfish, egocentric %insert-nation-here%'s see that post and find out if their companies will match a donation dollar for dollar, then thats a pretty good community outcome. If another 500 think "what crap" and move on, there is no loss because the 10 got some value (in fact most of the 500 will skip the thread).

cheers Darren :blink:

2.7k · January 6, 2005

Wow! Just read the entire thread. Read it because the UK Tsumani cache has been archived even though it was a real cache and there was no compunction for anyone to donate. I find that extremely bizarre. Why does it matter if a cache promotes a non-profit making cause? Would I care if similar caches were set up to promote donations to say fox hunting in the UK or the NRA in the US (both of which I strongly disapprove)- of course not- I wouldn't visit them. Quite easy really..

That's the ideal, but as a geocacher rather than a volunteer reviewer/business operator, yuo are free to ignore the cache in question. Unfortunately, the guys who work hard to keep the site running don't have that luxury.

January 6, 2005

Incidentally, according to the morning news here, private donations from Americans have exceeded 200 million, in addition to the 350 million from the US government.

Stupid, US-centric Planet-Americans.

Population of Australia

20,238,887

Population of USA

295,196,059

Australia government has donated $1 Billion and the Australian public over $100 Million.

Work out the sums and see why we are so passionate about this!

The $200 million donated by the citizens of the US is a 2 day old number. Most relief organiztions are complaining that donations are coming in too fast for them to handle. I also have no doubt that when all is over, the US will have provided, by far, the most aid.

There is already a carrier task force on site delivering aid to the stricken. 24x7 helicopter flights bringing water and food to remote areas and millions of dollars are pouring in from the US government and citizens. All to aid a people, many of whom were dancing in the streets with glee after 9/11. If that isn't charitable, I don't know what is

And the same goes for us....We had many lives lost in the Bali bombings but we are right there in the thick of it all and as the President of indonesia said "while the all other countries wondered what to do the Aussie's were doing it"

The figures I quoted are nearly 24 hrs old.

So far the aussie public have donated nearly $5 per person. The US is about 70c per person....

We have doubled the US gov's pledge.

An aussie will always look after a neighbour.

Edited January 6, 2005 by embi

January 6, 2005

...All to aid a people, many of whom were dancing in the streets with glee after 9/11. If that isn't charitable, I don't know what is

Now that is just wrong. I think you need an attitude adjustment.

Your country gets hit and you think the third world was jumping up and down with glee.

Uh, Hello Check please!

Do you think they read about 9/11 on their ADSL, perhaps it was on the flat screen in the den or the paper dropped on the door each day.

That is a terrible thing to say that America is such the Martyr to be helping the people that bombed them. I think you need to go back to junior college geography and get your facts straight before you prove what ignorant Aussies are assuming about your population.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and hide your stupidity than to open it and remove all doubt."

..many of whom. <---- with comments like that it is no wonder.

Bronze.

38.2k · January 6, 2005

Your country gets hit and you think the third world was jumping up and down with glee.

Many in Islamic nations were. And Indonesia is the world's largest Islamic nation and people there were.

2.7k · January 6, 2005

...All to aid a people, many of whom were dancing in the streets with glee after 9/11. If that isn't charitable, I don't know what is

Now that is just wrong. I think you need an attitude adjustment.

Your country gets hit and you think the third world was jumping up and down with glee.

Uh, Hello Check please!

Do you think they read about 9/11 on their ADSL, perhaps it was on the flat screen in the den or the paper dropped on the door each day.

That is a terrible thing to say that America is such the Martyr to be helping the people that bombed them. I think you need to go back to junior college geography and get your facts straight before you prove what ignorant Aussies are assuming about your population.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and hide your stupidity than to open it and remove all doubt."

..many of whom. <---- with comments like that it is no wonder.

Bronze.

I think you need to learn how to use the quote function before labeling me in any way.

21.9k · January 6, 2005

Further topics regarding this cache will be closed as well.

Appeal Cache

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