Geovandalism Or Geocreativity

[+Go JayBee]

I want to call it "GeoVandalism" but, some just seem to encourage these folks with accolades of "How creative" & "How interesting".

 

What I'm talking about here is, as an example, using epoxy glue to attach a secret code onto a 100 year old grave stone. Hey, that's somebody's Grandma buried here!!

 

The other trend I have been seeing lately is: making people have to take public property apart to get clues for caches. Such as: handrails, lighting fixtures, telephone boxes, etc. And attaching devices on State-owned highway signs designed to act as a secret de-coder for a "multi".

 

What are we doing here folks? This is like shooting ourselves in the foot. Just because some of us think that this activity is acceptable, doesn't mean that the general "non-caching" public will just sit back and let this go on. Oh ya, if noone knows it's there, it won't bother them. Right?

 

I'll stop now, cause I know I've probably already P.O'd somebody out there. I just wish these folks who think they are so much smarter than the rest of us, would just use some common sense.

[+briansnat]

What I'm talking about here is, as an example, using epoxy glue to attach a secret code onto a 100 year old grave stone. Hey, that's somebody's Grandma buried here!!

 

That's out and out vandalism and incredibly irresponsible.

 

The other trend I have been seeing lately is: making people have to take public property apart to get clues for caches. Such as: handrails, lighting fixtures, telephone boxes, etc.

 

 

Generally a bad idea.

 

And attaching devices on State-owned highway signs designed to act as a secret de-coder for a "multi".

 

I really don't see much of an issue with this. Removable magnetic devices, or even small notations written with a Sharpie are not that big a deal. Yeah, techincally writing coordinates on the back of a sign or on a guardrail with a Sharpie is graffiti, but when you have to call someone over, point it out and say "There it is, you can see it if you look really hard" it isn't quite the same as spraypainting "Class of 2005" on the side of a bridge in 4 foot high letters.

Edited January 4, 2005 by briansnat

[+Renegade Knight]

What briansnat said.

 

I'd go one thing further and say that once the cache is done the clue should be cleaned up and removed. Sharpies should clean up with alcahol. If you wrote your deal on a sticker, peel it off.

[+dunos]

Although the gravestone thing would be an intresting start to a multi after you are dead. You could have the next coordinates engraved into your headstone.

 

Dan

[adampierson]

If people have concerns about caches that disturb them, they should by all means contact their local approver. If bad enough, they should recommend the cache be archived.

[Smaug1]

I have to agree with briansat 100%

[+Go JayBee]

Obviously, you folks just don't get it.....what I am writing about here is blatant dis-respect for private and public property. Attaching devices to sign posts with 1'' plus screws, oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice. (Common' , these folks paid good money to get that in the book)............

 

Attaching things to gravestones with high-tech epoxy....gimmee a break....it's NOT gonna go away for another 100 years....

 

Iv'e already been chastized by the local cacher in this area, that thinks I am only directing this query towards them.

 

This seems to be an acceptable method of hiding, these days......I think it just has to stop.....

 

Go JayBee

[+DaveA]

Obviously, you folks just don't get it.....what I am writing about here is blatant dis-respect for private and public property.

 

I don't get it because I haven't seen it. Please link to caches which do this.

 

Attaching devices to sign posts with 1'' plus screws,

 

What kind of sign post? Does the screw in any way degrade the function of said sign post? Recently I saw a brass tag on a multileg cache screwed into a telephone pole. I have no issue with that as the integrity of the pole isn't compromised and there were other (presumably official) tags nailed or screwed to the same post. People routinely nail or staple "My dog/cat/hamster is lost, please help me find it" or "rummage sale today" signs on such things and nobody seems to care.

 

oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice. (Common' , these folks paid good money to get that in the book)............

 

Well, I work for the phone company and as this is likely to be as close to an offical phone company response as you will get "we couldn't care less".

 

Attaching things to gravestones with high-tech epoxy....gimmee a break....it's NOT gonna go away for another 100 years....

 

Yeah, OK attaching things to grave stones is a serious no-no in my book too. What cache does this? A gravestone is private property and I would think the approvers would appreciate knowing about this kind of thing.

 

Iv'e already been chastized by the local cacher in this area, that thinks I am only directing this query towards them.

 

This seems to be an acceptable method of hiding, these days......I think it just has to stop.....

 

Well, please provide examples of what you are talking about. With the exception of the tombstone example things are too vague for me to really judge.

Edited January 4, 2005 by DaveA

[+New England n00b]

Obviously, you folks just don't get it.....what I am writing about here is blatant dis-respect for private and public property. Attaching devices to sign posts with 1'' plus screws, oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice. (Common' , these folks paid good money to get that in the book)............

 

Attaching things to gravestones with high-tech epoxy....gimmee a break....it's NOT gonna go away for another 100 years....

 

Iv'e already been chastized by the local cacher in this area, that thinks I am only directing this query towards them.

 

This seems to be an acceptable method of hiding, these days......I think it just has to stop.....

 

Go JayBee

We get it. We just don't think as much damage has been done (to be fair, I don't recall you mentioning the yellowpages bit in the original post.

 

The epoxy on the headstone though... How insensitive can you get?

 

Things like magnetics slapped on signs - big deal. Screws? That's no so cool, and possibly illegal.

 

As far as fenceposts - I've seen chain link fence missing caps before. Piece of cake to buy one and install it - thereby improving the thing...

[+Two Geeks and a GPS]

We have a multi w/ stages screwed to the undersides of benches and trail posts and such. The difference is that we have the parks permission!

[+bigredmed]

We have a multi w/ stages screwed to the undersides of benches and trail posts and such. The difference is that we have the parks permission!

Good that you obtained permission.

 

A second issue comes up, though.

 

If the parks dept gave you permission to screw things into a series of benches, why would they be able to tell the next guy no?

 

If I came to them with the same kind of cache and didn't get permission, I would have a reasonable case for going further up the chain of command (they let you and not me for no apparent reason.) Eventually, I would get permission and would slap one in place.

 

From here it gets tricky. If I get permission, why not more people, eventually the parks are over run and the whole parks system begins to think that perhaps they can live without us. They could also just change their mind on yours and give you the bum's rush to eliminate the cache, and oh, by the way, pay for all the park benches that you messed up...

 

I really think that as clever as these kind of hides are, when you use parks property, you should really not be destructively attaching your pieces to the public property (screws leave screw marks or holes). This just gives ammo to those who would exclude us.

[+Nurse Dave]

I think putting a small sticker on something isn't a big deal. Taking it upon yourself to screw or glue an object glued to something owned by someone else just isn't right. So what if it doesn't change the function of that item? Where is a line? It wouldn't be okay for you to screw a 2'x2' sign onto the pole of a stop sign. What about 1'x1'. 6"x6"?

 

To take it a step further, I've been asking that people stop hiding caches in fake sprinkler heads around here. Why? Because when you have found 3 or 4 of them you start wondering if any sprinkler near the area your GPS zeros out is the cache. And what's the only way to find out? Unscrew the top. I don't think it's cool to get people looking inside anything they can possibly open in the area.

[CoyoteRed]

If the parks dept gave you permission to screw things into a series of benches, why would they be able to tell the next guy no?

Thye didn't like the way the cacher presented it?

 

The cache quota has been met?

 

Don't want another cache in that area?

 

Don't want another cache like that?

 

There are myriad ways to refuse a cache. It's their park to run. They don't need to let us do what ever we want.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Obviously, you folks just don't get it.....what I am writing about here is blatant dis-respect for private and public property. Attaching devices to sign posts with 1'' plus screws, oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice. (Common' , these folks paid good money to get that in the book)............

 

Attaching things to gravestones with high-tech epoxy....gimmee a break....it's NOT gonna go away for another 100 years....

 

Iv'e already been chastized by the local cacher in this area, that thinks I am only directing this query towards them.

 

This seems to be an acceptable method of hiding, these days......I think it just has to stop.....

 

Go JayBee

I have not seen this in my area. I have seen thing on stop signs, traffics signs, benches and other places but all have been place with magnets or have been stickers. I think maybo one time I saw a tag on a telephone pole but I am not 100% sure.

[+tirediron]

Just to reiterate; if you feel there's a problem with a 'cache, contact the local approver!

[+Go JayBee]

Just to reiterate; if you feel there's a problem with a 'cache, contact the local approver!

I'm NOT gonna go there.....this post has already had some trickle-down effect. In other words, the folks that need to know about this, are watching. And, as much as some previous readers really want to know names and numbers....I'll not go there either.

 

We have to remember that its NOT always the cache hiders' intent that things be defaced or dismantled, but as folks get frustrated trying to find that clue, they are also likely to become more daring in their search.

[+VegasCacheHounds]

Recently I saw a brass tag on a multileg cache screwed into a telephone pole. I have no issue with that as the integrity of the pole isn't compromised and there were other (presumably official) tags nailed or screwed to the same post. People routinely nail or staple "My dog/cat/hamster is lost, please help me find it" or "rummage sale today" signs on such things and nobody seems to care.

 

Most of the time the screws, nails, tacks, staples, etc. are not official that you see in telephone poles. There is a proliferation of such things as it is very hard to stop. Some communities have cracked down on such things, but most have other issues to worry about.

 

Is it a big deal? As a former climber of such poles, let me say YES. Why? Have you ever watched anyone climb one of these wooden poles? To climb one, you use strap on spikes on your boots and a belt around the pole. All that is holding you up is basically those spikes. All those staples, nails, whatever, can seriously impare the spikes from getting a good purchase on the pole, leading to possible falls. It has happened plenty of times all over, sometimes causing serious injuries or death. Anyone who climbs those poles hates to see all that crap.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

[+NoLemon]

oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice.

Hmmm, interesting idea (sticker in phone book - not covering something else)... too bad I can't find any phonebooths that actually have phone books in them around here...

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

No Lemons....hmmmm... I could take that personally.

 

Anyhow, to the topic at hand. I think that those placing caches must respect both private, public, and environmentally sensitive properties and places. Get permission. Assume your cache has a finite life-span and attach it in a way that does not interfere with function of the place it is attached or hidden. Nor should it leave perminent effects behind (glue, screws, spray paint). When placing a cache also consider how it will eventually be de-placed.

 

Hopefully that's "getting it" -- side note: people generally don't like to be called stupid.

[dave5339]

Having climbed poles before I'll second what VegasCacheHound had to say. Plates, nails and staples in telephone poles are dangerous to those working on the poles.

 

Now, I've got a related question. My wife and I are brainstorming on a multi we are creating. Part of the multi involves writing the next set of coordinates with a sharpie on the edge of a curb/sidewalk. Would this be seen as bad form/grafitti?

 

Thanks in advance & Semper Fi

[+Go JayBee]

Now, I've got a related question. My wife and I are brainstorming on a multi we are creating. Part of the multi involves writing the next set of coordinates with a sharpie on the edge of a curb/sidewalk. Would this be seen as bad form/grafitti?

 

Thanks in advance & Semper Fi

I guess, if you want to carry this out to the nth degree, I would say: "Don't do it"......Is there a way to use some "naturally" occuring feature or to suit your purpose? Or, can you get permission from a property owner to display your hint? Maybe a tree nursery type tag attached loosely around some accessible vegetation. That's the "cleverness" and "creative" element of this hobby we call GeoCaching.

[+briansnat]

Attaching things to gravestones with high-tech epoxy....gimmee a break....it's NOT gonna go away for another 100 years....

 

Did anybody here say that was acceptable?

[+Phonedave]

Having climbed poles before I'll second what VegasCacheHound had to say. Plates, nails and staples in telephone poles are dangerous to those working on the poles.

 

Make me number three. I haven't hooked a pole in over 5 years (Go desk job ) but I hated all that junk people stick on poles.

 

-dave

[+VegasCacheHounds]

Make me number three. I haven't hooked a pole in over 5 years (Go desk job ) but I hated all that junk people stick on poles.

 

-dave

Man, in my opinion the only negative to my new job is that I don't get to climb anymore. I love climbing poles and towers. It was my favorite part of my last job, and they even payed me extra to do it I woulda done it for free!

 

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

[+Two Geeks and a GPS]

If the parks dept gave you permission to screw things into a series of benches, why would they be able to tell the next guy no?

 

A) They only want a certain amount of caches in the park.

As a multi, our cache covers most of the park and it is most unlikely that the next guy will be able to get .1 miles away from any of the stages. It shouldn't get approved by GC.com!

C) Maybe they wouldn't tell the next guy "no"

D) They actually suggested the benches/posts as a way to keep it "on trail"

 

If permission from the proper authority is given, I don't think there is any problem.

 

Edit: that smiley should be a "B" in () !!!!

Edited January 4, 2005 by Two Geeks and a GPS

[+Renegade Knight]

Having climbed poles before I'll second what VegasCacheHound had to say. Plates, nails and staples in telephone poles are dangerous to those working on the poles.

 

Make me number three. I haven't hooked a pole in over 5 years (Go desk job ) but I hated all that junk people stick on poles.

 

-dave

I once called our local power company about phone poles (long before caching) and got the official line on attaching things to phone poles. "No"

 

They don't like it, but they don't chase it down in court either. I don't attach things to phone poles.

[+orome]

oblitorating address advertisements in the Yellow Pages with a custom made label of your choice.

While I agree that much of what you outline is vandalism, I don't have as much of a problem with this kind, provided the category chosen is one that folks aren't likely to need from a payphone - such as a funeral parlor.

 

It does beg the question: will the cache's creator replace the hint in the next phone book that's issued there?

[+DaveA]

Having climbed poles before I'll second what VegasCacheHound had to say. Plates, nails and staples in telephone poles are dangerous to those working on the poles.

 

Make me number three. I haven't hooked a pole in over 5 years (Go desk job ) but I hated all that junk people stick on poles.

 

-dave

Just curious, but how could such things be dangerous? The stuff that gets attached to the poles is generally going to be at eye level so no higher than 6ft. I don't do pole climbing and around here at least it seems those who need to go up poles have a truck with a bucket and they get lifted up where they need to go.

 

Not disagreeing, just saying I don't understand how placing things on the first 6' of a pole poses a danger.

[+Phonedave]

Just curious, but how could such things be dangerous? The stuff that gets attached to the poles is generally going to be at eye level so no higher than 6ft. I don't do pole climbing and around here at least it seems those who need to go up poles have a truck with a bucket and they get lifted up where they need to go.

 

Buckets (and ladders) are more and more common, however people still do hook (or gaff) poles. When I was a Foreman, my car was a hatchback, so every inspection I did was on hooks. You would be suprised what can cause you to cut out. Hitting a tack head just right can do it, Plus when people do things like put rigid signs on poles, those are a mess to climb around. Lastly, if a pole has to be removed because of an accident, it gets cut. Just like a lumberjack encountering a nail in a tree, extra hardware in a pole is not pleasant.

 

-dave

Edited January 4, 2005 by Phonedave

[1infive]

Interesting thread.

 

I'm probably TheWorld's Worst Geocacher. Is this why I can't find anything? Because 'leave no trace' is so engrained that I simply haven't equated vandalism with caching?

 

Obviously, ya gotta leave some trace - but I haven't been looking for defacements of a permanent nature. In looking for a cache, dismantling public property would never occur to me!

 

Likewise with trails - I consider a trail to be a designated path for the public to trod on. Maybe I should also consider service trails, maintenance-only trails and so on.

 

Guess that makes me a rube. I don't care, would rather be The World's Worst Cacher than a vandal.

[+blazerfan]

Not disagreeing, just saying I don't understand how placing things on the first 6' of a pole poses a danger.

I don't climb phone polls but I imagine even a 5' fall expecially onto a solid service wouldn't be all that pleasant.

 

I have to agree that none of the things I've heard mentioned are a good idea. These are things that will make geocaching look like vandalism. Epoxy on a headstone is total disrespect... I love caches in and around cemeteries but that is way over the line... even if it is the stone of a relative.

[+shunra]

Just to reiterate; if you feel there's a problem with a 'cache, contact the local approver!

I'm NOT gonna go there.....this post has already had some trickle-down effect. In other words, the folks that need to know about this, are watching. And, as much as some previous readers really want to know names and numbers....I'll not go there either.

Not that I disagree with Briansnat and all the others - I couldn't have phrased it better - but I feel that approvers are the obvious road to address such issues. Forums are not meant for mob action, IMO - and I am saying this as someone who is agreement with the mob, here.

[+Phonedave]

I don't climb phone polls but I imagine even a 5' fall expecially onto a solid service wouldn't be all that pleasant.

 

Its not really the fall onto a surface that hurts. It the forearms, insides of your thighs, and quite possibly your face getting loaded with creasoe laden splinters as you grab the pole because either A) Your still belted in, or B.) You don't feel like breaking your legs.

 

-dave

Edited January 5, 2005 by Phonedave

[+Hemlock]

In the private reviewers forum we're finalizing an updated version of the Cache Placement Guidelines. There are only a few minor changes. One of them is:

 

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

• Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.
  
• etc.
  

Almost all of the examples I've read in this thread are bad, IMO.

[+Team Perks]

• Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.
  

Well there goes my next cache hide:

 

The cache is an ammo can containing the usual trinkets.  However, instead of a log book, I have included a can of red spray paint so you can sign your name on the nearby wall.  If I find that you have not signed in letters at least three high, I reserve the right to delete your online log.

I would have to agree that placing anything that can't be readily removed or could possibly cause damage (i.e., marker, epoxy, nails) is generally not a good idea. I have seen situations, however, where these examples have been used in what I would consider to be acceptable circumstances.

[+Go JayBee]

In the private reviewers forum we're finalizing an updated version of the Cache Placement Guidelines. There are only a few minor changes. One of them is:

 

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

• 
   
   
  
• Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.
   
   
  
• etc.
   
   
  

Almost all of the examples I've read in this thread are bad, IMO.

Hemlock,

Thank you for the acknowledgement of the issue.....I have been trying to get the word out to cachers from my area. One of the cache owners actually responded in a very positive manner, and has assured me that the cache will be modified. But, there are still some cachers that would prefer that I just keep quiet about these issues so as to not spoil their fun.

 

Also, would like to thank all those who have responded (both pro & con) to this topic. I was good to get a feel for what the rest of our Geo-Nation thinks.

Edited January 6, 2005 by Go JayBee

[+Mule Ears]

Wish more cache placers would consider the consequences of a thorough search for a well-hidden cache. Your grave stone example is bad enough--but what if searchers really roughed up the grave site looking for the clue? I've seen this happen a few times with well-hidden caches near trees--searchers literally strip the bark off the tree exploring the possibility that the cache may be hidden behind a "loose" strip of bark.

[+ShadowAce]

Along the same token is the cacher who writes on a wall near a flowerbed. they do not tell you to look for written material. After enough cachers search for the wee tiny micro in the area, the flowerbed looks like dogs played in it.

 

I notice a few cachers this they are getting cute by hiding more and more difficult micros, but in many of these cases if you come to the area after about 12 'found' logs not to mention the 15-20 non posted DNF's, you can clearly tell that the area is not like it used to be.

 

I do not mind a good hide, but when you have to go through someone else's property and tear up plants and trees, you have pushed the limit. We have a problem with it in Arizona, but only through the actions of cachers can it be resolved.

 

No reviewer can visit every cache to check the placement. they have to rely on the assistance of the geocaching community to help. This translates to ... Post a note to a reviewer or email your local reviewer if you want to remain invisible in the process.

 

Digital pictures are amazing items. Send them to your reviewer.

 

Thanks for bringing up the issue. Cache well and keep it clean.

edited to mention -- reviewer call on us as cachers sometimes, help your reviewer out and they will be grateful.

Edited January 6, 2005 by ShadowAce

[+Go JayBee]

Got to thinking about the "vandalism" aspect some more...and have to say, the cache searchers are just as much guilty of vandalism. Especially when they start opening things like sprinkler heads......removing covers to light poles, etc. I'm sure that many out there know exactlly what I'm writing about. Even trampling plants could be considered GeoVandalism....how many of us have followed the "cacher trail" to the cache? I know, I have.

Edited January 8, 2005 by Go JayBee

[+chstress53]

Please If you see anything on a utilty pole take it down it is illegal in all states. My husband works for a utility co and it is illegal . No signs! No nails! screws! or signs! of any kind. We routinely remove or notify the offenders, when possible. If not we tell the authorities and the things come off the poles pronto when this is done, the offender then gets a ticket .The Police Department must have meant it a few weeks ago when they announced their crackdown on illegal handbills. I don't know whether the cops are going around ripping leaflets off public property, or whether residents have taken down their own notices for fear of the $50 fine Most people are not aware that it is treated like a parking ticket if someone makes a complaint the police must issue a ticket.. So please no #'s or screws or nails on poles. when the neigbors do yard sales we politely tell them the law and the signs come down.

Removal of illegal signs is the best option. It is not always possible. If a sign is hard to remove, or there are too many of them, it makes sense to remove the phone number(s) so that the illegal sign spammers won't profit from the illegal sign(s). Also it puts them on notice to stop putting the illegal signs up.

 

A few signs? There were 84 illegal signs out in our area. Many of them were removed. Sometimes, when the problem is bad, if all the signs are removed, it just clears the competition away for a new round of illegal street spam signs. That's great for the first guy to put up his trash. Not so great for the community!

 

Statue:

chapter 3. General Provisions

 

24-3-1. Signs Prohibited.

 

1) It shall be unlawful for any person to erect, place, or maintain a sign in the

accordance with the provisions of this title. The following types of signs are prohibited in all states:

.....

n) Public areas. No sign, handbill or poster, advertisement or notice of any kind or sort, whether political or otherwise, shall be fastened, placed, posted, painted or attached in any way in or upon any curbstone, lamp post, telephone pole, telegraph pole, electric light or power pole, hydrant, bridge, tree, rock,sidewalk or street, except when the sign is owned and erected by a public agency or erected by permission of an authorized public agency or required by law.

 

a) Except as otherwise stipulated, no person shall paint, mark or write on, or post or otherwise affix, any hand-bill or sign to or upon any sidewalk, crosswalk, curb, curbstone, parkstrip, street lamp post, hydrant, tree, shrub, tree stake or guard, railroad trestle, electric light or power or telephone or telegraph or trolley wire pole, or wire appurtenance thereof or upon any lighting system, public bridge, drinking fountain, lifesaving equipment, street sign or traffic sign.

 

Any handbill or sign found posted upon any public property contrary to the provisions of this section may

be removed by the Police Department, the Public Works Department, the Parks and Recreation

Department, or the Department. The person responsible for any such illegal posting shall be liable for the cost incurred in the removal thereof and the City is authorized to effect the collection of said cost and a fee will be assed for violation of said offenses

c) Nothing in this section shall apply to the installation of a metal plaque or plate or individual letters or

figures in a sidewalk commemorating an historical, cultural, or artistic event, location, or personality for

which the Department of Public Works has granted a written permit.

 

d) Nothing in this section shall apply to the painting of house numbers upon curbs.

 

24-3-2. Permits Required.

 

1) Unless otherwise provided by this ordinance, all signs shall require permits and payment of fees as described

in Section 24-8-3 of this title.

...

Now, at least everyone knows that these signs are illegal.

In fact, the police like the help in fighting illegal signs! A Deputy told me so while I was removing illegal signs!

 

Think about it, do you use other people's property without permission? NO! Why do you think it is OK to put illegal signs on utility poles? The poles are not yours. The utilities will NOT give you permission to post signs on their poles. The nails and screws are hazardous to the utility workers who have to climb the poles. The utility workers need to climb the poles and maintain them with the big thunderstorms we get around here. We need electric power and phone service more than trashy illegal signs, nails, screws, or painted on coordinates.!

Edited January 8, 2005 by chstress53

[+chstress53]

editing accidental second post.

Edited January 8, 2005 by chstress53