+ziploclogic Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Maybe It's because I'm new to the game ...maybe it's because I've worked for the DoD... In my opinion, this cache: Aircraft Nav/Aids of the world ...should be deleted. This could facilitate possible terrorism. Having coordinates published in a forum such as this might make it easy for someone to locate and disable these deviece if they were inclined to do so. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment
+southdeltan Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 If you think there is a problem with a cache, look in the upper right corner of the cache page for "log your visit" and select the "Should be archived" log type. I'd use the space provided to explain why you think the cache should be archived. Let the approvers and GC.com admin decide if your concern is valid. southdeltan Quote Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I'm probably wrong but these might already be shown on flight maps anyway. If the tangos ever find this site all our bases are belong to them. Quote Link to comment
+worldtraveler Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I'm no fan of locationless caches, but this one doesn't pose a security risk. All the information given on the cache page and in the logs is already widely and readily available elsewhere on the internet and in printed form. Quote Link to comment
+ziploclogic Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Thanks for the feedback - I'll try the link on the GC.com site. I understand that information regarding these sites is public information. I may be just a bit over-cautious, but thought treking that close (in the name of GeoCaching) to secure area's could {a} show cause for security concerns and {b} possibly give this great adventure a bad reputation. P.S. Never thought I'd see a reference to Zero Wing here "All your base are belong to us" - Cats, Zero Wing Edited January 2, 2005 by ziploclogic Quote Link to comment
+DaveA Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I agree with both of the above posters. If you are concerned about this cache, report it and let the staff decide what to do. It is also unlikely that these things aren't already in some publically accessible database. I don't know that they are, but I suspect they are. It also appears that these things aren't used anymore, having been replaced by GPS so I don't know that their destruction would compromise the safety of air travel. Quote Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 {a} show cause for security concerns and {b} possibly give this great adventure a bad reputation. I like this guy, for a newbie he was really quick to discover that b ) puts a smilie on the screen, and changed the post. Quote Link to comment
+wv-yen Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 if they were inclined to do so. If they were inclined to do so, I doubt that they would stop here first. My only concern would be that this cache requires you to take a picture of the site. The folks that work at these sites may have been instructed to be suspicious of that type of activity. I like locationless caches, but I would avoid this one because I don't relish the idea of explaning my hobby while wearing a new set of 'bracelets'. Take southdeltan's advice and log an SBA, this will put it in front of the folks who may need to see it. Quote Link to comment
+Square Bear Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I think that you are reading more in to this than you need to. Any one can get the location of these NAV AIDS by walking in to your local airport and buying a set of maps. As far as being a terrorist threat they would have to take out far more than one in order for it to impact navigation. Also as the locationless cache states most of these are in very remote locations or on private property. Quote Link to comment
+Team Tecmage Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I do not agree that the cache should be deleted. Just as the placer found the information on the internet, anyone else could too. Cachew nut is right about flight maps containing the same information. There was another cache that people wanted removed for fear in aiding a terrorist attack. We need to think about what information needs to be removed from the public domain. Government at ALL levels is removing information under the banner of protecting us from terrorism, while forgeting that the information exists in other forms. The question is will removing this cache change the fact that the primary sources of information will still exist? The answer is no. Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Uhm, as a DoD employee, you DO of course know that all those coordinates are already included in most GPS units intended for aviation, right? Quote Link to comment
+ziploclogic Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 As a former contractor to the DoD I worked as an analyst upgrading non-vital GIS systems. This included purging some GPS related data. At the time I was involved primarily with the creation of translation tools for XML data exports to be sent regularly back to a division of the DoD. These XML files were very similar to our beloved GPX files. I had no idea what the coord's were related to but knew they didn't want them around post-conversion Yes, the government will spend a lot of effort in one area while disregarding the security of another. My goal was simply to raise attention to what I perceived as a possible issue. <shortstory>While under contract with a small airline, I noticed that there entire internal flight schedule was kept on a white-board. I asked the President of the company what he would do if the cleaning crew erased the board. [Look of horror] I advised him to take a picture (or something) of the board daily to prevent such an event. I learned that they were keeping their records in this manner due to a failed FAA audit. Their software security methodologies failed the audit so the auditors suggested they keep the schedule on the white board. I didn't bother to point out that the white board was directly across from a large ground-level window and could be viewed by people passing on the street. When it comes to Government, as long as work is being done, progress is assumed. </shortstory> I just don't think it makes sense to facilitate a potential threat. Not to mention Cacher's in the wild getting fitted with the aforementioned bracelets as their prize for finding the location. Quote Link to comment
SFABobby03 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) It also appears that these things aren't used anymore, having been replaced by GPS so I don't know that their destruction would compromise the safety of air travel. Umm, these things are actually still used. Not all older aircraft are equiped with GPS. In fact I would say that most civilian aircraft out there isn't equiped. There are lots of old planes out there. These VOR's and the markers for ILS approaches are still very widely utilized in aviation. edit : grammer Edited January 2, 2005 by SFABobby03 Quote Link to comment
+hedberg Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Maybe It's because I'm new to the game ...maybe it's because I've worked for the DoD... In my opinion, this cache: Aircraft Nav/Aids of the world ...should be deleted. This could facilitate possible terrorism. Having coordinates published in a forum such as this might make it easy for someone to locate and disable these deviece if they were inclined to do so. Just a thought. And what's the problem? You don't think the enemies already knows about these places? If I want detailed maps over the Swedish Archipelago, I buy a russian map - they are more detailed Quote Link to comment
+Runaround Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I just don't think it makes sense to facilitate a potential threat. Not to mention Cacher's in the wild getting fitted with the aforementioned bracelets as their prize for finding the location. If they trespass or jump the fence, they're looking for the ankle bracelet. If they examine from the nearest public spot, there shouldn't be a problem. I know of 2 of these that are within 250-500' of major roadways. They are certainly not a secret. The next time you are in a smaller airport that services both commercial traffic and a fair amount of general aviation, stop by the store in the general aviation section. You'll be amazed at the amount of stuff available for sale to anyone who walks in. Lot's of interesting maps and publications. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Maybe It's because I'm new to the game ...maybe it's because I've worked for the DoD... In my opinion, this cache: Aircraft Nav/Aids of the world ...should be deleted. This could facilitate possible terrorism. Having coordinates published in a forum such as this might make it easy for someone to locate and disable these deviece if they were inclined to do so. Just a thought. In my opinion it shouldn't. The only effect terrorism should have on our lives is that we are more vigilutent as we go about our lives. We should still work, shop, and recreate as we did before. Otherwise terrorism is winning. Quote Link to comment
+sept1c_tank Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 ...The only effect terrorism should have on our lives is that we are more vigilutent as we go about our lives. We should still work, shop, and recreate as we did before. Otherwise terrorism is winning. Exactly… if we let the terrorists dictate where we can geocache (without disrupting society around us), then we're loosing the battle. Quote Link to comment
+SamLowrey Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 If the government was concerned about terrorism, they would stop immigration since that is the only likely avenue of a threat. They haven't. So you can draw your own conclusions about that. Quote Link to comment
+The Waldo's Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 (edited) The VOR in my post has a hiking trail that goes by it at the most 75 feet and sits within 200 feet of a soccer field. And as far as a security risk or a danger if disabled they are Navigation AIDS Note the AID part. The airport does not relay solely on any one aid for navigation there are many other devices used in conjunction with all the others ' If one goes down the rest keep on working independently. So this would be low level on a security risk. Check this link out Now this could be a risk but the Government does not think so. http://www4.passur.com/bos.html it shows flights in almost real time . But that does not mean that the local police don't see it as such so be careful and use Your common sense. Edited January 3, 2005 by Waldo's Revenge Quote Link to comment
+FtMgAl Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 ... Having coordinates published in a forum such as this might make it easy for someone to locate and disable these deviece if they were inclined to do so. Did you check the site suggested on the cache page? http://airnav.com/navaids/ tells far more about these aids than most of the cache logs. Not only does it give accurate coordinates but it also gives radio frequencies and types of equipment. True the logs here give one or more pictures but what self-respecting terrorist is going to trust what is found here rather than doing their own scout work? If I can drive out to the Summerdale NDB and take a bunch of pictures from the county road in broad daylight, a semi-intellegent terrorist with a nightscope could learn even more about that shack out in the country. But to what purpose? There are far jucier targets back on the main highway. No, IMHO this locationless is harmless and should NOT be archived. Someone may be able to get arrested for taking a picture of Aunt Millie at Laguardia but that is no reason to ban cameras from the entire US. Whatever happened to common sense? Quote Link to comment
SFABobby03 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 There really is little danger that a terrorist will use this info on this cache to do anything. You can go to any magazine store and buy a Pilot's magazine and order maps/charts with all of these sites on it. It is readily accessible information. I have tons of flight maps around here with VOR's and NDB's listed on them as well as ILS approaches. My dad is a pilot and I have been flying with him all my life as well as taken many lessons. Anybody can find this information out much easier than looking at cache results. Quote Link to comment
txaggie90 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 As a pilot, I don't see that the publication of VOR locations here is a problem. This is all public information. In fact, if you think of VOR locations as a type of waypoint, you quickly see that you have to know the location of them for them to be of any use for navigation. I doubt seriously that they would be considered as a valuable target, since the system still functions today, even though at any given time several of the VOR locations may be out of service. Pilots use a variety of navigation methods, including Dead Reckoning, Pilotage, VOR, ADF, GPS, Loran, etc. Even most basic training aircraft contain at least two different types electronic navigation receivers. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 There are other Locationless Caches that worry me a bit more. Historic Synagogues, and Mosques of the World, for example. And, yes, I've logged both, within a few blocks of each other on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And wondered if it were a good idea. Quote Link to comment
cuff&stuff Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 i work for the dept of the army security (dod security). this is not an issue. but, it is nice to see concern. i get warning letters every day from homeland defense (another sad story), and believe me there are a lot more critical items out there being compromised than navaids. cache on!! Quote Link to comment
+cudlecub Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Oh no....I posted a find for my fave diner on a locationless. What if Bin Laden decides my burger joint isn't up to par? Hmmm....I notice there's another locationless for drive in theaters. Little did we know we would be the downfall of all the joy in the world!?!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment
+W7WT Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 (edited) I have owned two airplanes and both my wife and I have licenses. I choose the middle marker for my locationless cache. It is off the airport and is the middle marker for the ILS 19 approach at Bremerton National. Nearly all aircraft are equipped with marker beacons receivers and a light blinks when you pass over it on your approach. Any aeronautical chart will list most of the NAV Aids. I was born about three miles east of the Bible Grove VOR and it is in the middle of a field in a rural setting. Most NAV Aids are not sensitive and their where abouts is public knowledge. Edited January 9, 2005 by W7WT Quote Link to comment
+halffast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Maybe It's because I'm new to the game ...maybe it's because I've worked for the DoD... In my opinion, this cache: Aircraft Nav/Aids of the world ...should be deleted. This could facilitate possible terrorism. Having coordinates published in a forum such as this might make it easy for someone to locate and disable these deviece if they were inclined to do so. Just a thought. I thought the same way so I just didnt log these kind of LC caches but never thought that the info was already easy to get.I fill that I can log these now after reading this forum.Thanks Quote Link to comment
Jeremy Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Stop dredging up 7 month old topics please, unless it is really necessary. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 (edited) ...I just don't think it makes sense to facilitate a potential threat. Not to mention Cacher's in the wild getting fitted with the aforementioned bracelets as their prize for finding the location. The threat isn't people going about their life participating in a harmless activity. The threat is something else and the innocent should not suffer for the sake of a potential threat. The world has as many potential threats as there are people to imagine them. You could follow any car with a US Government license plate and discover "locations" you can use arial photo's. Talk to the neighbor. Look up a employee in a goverment employee listing and follow them to work. So on, and so on. Nav Aid's are near airports, they can be seen, anyone so inclined only needs that to muck wiht them. If by chance a terrorist does blow up a nav aid (wich might be a military target but not really a terrorist one due to the low splash value in the newspaper) Hunt them down, kill them, kille their training camp, kill everone associated with the training camp. Hunt down their cell, and all adjoining cells, and make an example of the nation that harbored them. Edit: Heck I said it better in my first post in this thread. Edited July 9, 2005 by Renegade Knight Quote Link to comment
+deimos444 Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Not to mention being able to Google or Keyhole darn near all of the domestic airports and defense installations. Our first defense to terrorism is personal vigilance and a serious look at reality. Quote Link to comment
twjolson & Kay Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 While I won't ever critisize someone for showing concern or caring, I don't agree. Anyone seriously looking to hit targets like that will already have the information and will get it freely available in so many ways that are easier then a geocache page. Quote Link to comment
+Team Cotati Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 While I won't ever critisize someone for showing concern or caring, I don't agree. Anyone seriously looking to hit targets like that will already have the information and will get it freely available in so many ways that are easier then a geocache page. than Quote Link to comment
+reveritt Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 The aids to navigation appear on every sectional chart. I can't see where this cache is doing any harm. Quote Link to comment
+tabulator32 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 While I won't ever critisize someone for showing concern or caring, I don't agree. Anyone seriously looking to hit targets like that will already have the information and will get it freely available in so many ways that are easier then a geocache page. than criticise Quote Link to comment
+deimos444 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 While I won't ever critisize someone for showing concern or caring, I don't agree. Anyone seriously looking to hit targets like that will already have the information and will get it freely available in so many ways that are easier then a geocache page. than criticise Oooouch. Quote Link to comment
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