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Garbage In, Cash Out? (gico)


SpiffJr

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unless it's obvious trash or something obviously dangerous (as listed in the guidelines)

 

You guys are WAY too funny... contradicting yourselves in practically each post.

 

"NEVER, EVER, do X-Y-Z, otherwise you are a stealing, enethical b*stard... exept... if it is OBVIOUS that you should, but just be sure to remember that what is OBVIOUS to YOU may not be viewed by everyone else in the same way, so it's OBVIOUS in a rather UN-obvious way... so... ah... I guess I don't know what I'm saying."

 

Please.

Edited by SpiffJr
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What you don't seem to understand is, that "point" is different for a great many different people.

 

My god, man...

 

of course I know what subjectiveity is... it's been discussed ad nauseum. (maybe you have not read the whole thead?)

 

If you think that this is what this conversation is hinging on, then perhaps I can convince you to assume that this is a FAR more subtle topic that is examining a far, far deeper philosophy than you are thinking about...

 

s

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what your actual point is, since you ignore a lot of points and opinions, and keep railing on about what you think is right...but I don't really see an issue here, for us to help you resolve. Not for lack of effort on our parts.

 

So....why only respond to one of my posts? Were the others too hard to argue against? Seriously...no smart-alick tone intended.

 

Oh....and yes, I was up sick all night, and I DID read the whole thread. A thread in which you continued arguing, in the face of a unified front of seasoned vets, who know what they're doing. Again I ask, are you here to get opinions and answers from people, or to argue against anyone that doesn't share your point? I'm pretty sure I know the answer. Are you willing to admit it? I doubt it.

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unless it's obvious trash or something obviously dangerous (as listed in the guidelines)

 

You guys are WAY too funny... contradicting yourselves in practically each post.

 

"NEVER, EVER, do X-Y-Z, otherwise you are a stealing, enethical b*stard... exept... if if is OBVIOUS that you should, but just be sure to remember that what is OBVIOUS to YOU may not be viewed by everyone else in the same way, to it's OBVIOUS in a rather UN-obvious way... so... ah... I guess I don't know what I'm saying."

 

Please.

Once again, you take things out of context, to further your feeble argument. When it comes to TRASH, when it's obvious...get rid of it. When it comes to an item you don't think is valuable enough...even if it's obvious to you, leave it alone. Those are two completely different situations.

 

Come on....it can't be that hard to understand. You seem reasonably intelligent, and have a firm grasp of the english language. Therefore, at this point, you're only here to rile people up. Therefore, further replies from me, would only be met with irrational argument....no matter what I said, and it's not worthy of any further response from me.

 

I'm done feeding the troll, as Mopar said.

Edited by PC Painter
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(I read about this on the forum). In one state Park Rangers found a knife in a geocache. They banned all geocaches from their park system, because of the knife. Now geocaching has a black eye in that park system.

 

My suggestion: Don't look to government burecracies to find moral/ethical truth.

 

Soon, they will also ban caches due to liability the first time a child chokes on broken toy piece...

 

So, I understand that different parties affected by the game have different perspectives... some more in keeping with the original Geocaching mindset, and some that are part of the "lowest-common denominator" mindset that is the US government.

 

But what do *you* want?

 

Are you really suggesting that Geocaching can be molded into something that will fit everyone's perspectives?

 

Because if you are not... then there HAS to be compromise.

 

One could take the tack of banning everything that *someone* says should be banned, and Groundspeak Incorporated can then add it to a list...

 

"I feel porn should be banned" - done

"I feel objects that might choke a child should be banned" - done

"I feel cache worth more than $1 should be banned becase it is too material" - done

 

etc.

etc.

etc.

 

There are justifyable and reasonable positions for banning EVERYTHING, INCLUDING the cache itself.

 

Trying to "protect" everyone, therefore, is foolish.

 

Seems to me that the best way to protect the game/sport is to LIGHTEN UP with regard to contents... EXPECT to find things that are not easily appropriate for a three year old... DON'T COMPLAIN when there is a swiss army knife in a cache. DON'T Freak out when there is an airplane sized bottle of vodka in a cache 1000' up a climb.

 

EXPECT stupidity.

 

(One persons stupidity is another person's awesome find!)

 

This is NOT a plea to abandon the natural formation of convention/tradition.... they are the cornerstones of civilization IMHO.

 

The formation of a convention / tradition takes time. The "designated driver" did not appear instantly... it started as a lone concept... and concepts have to start somewhere.

 

Eventually, some reach a status where they are natural for most people, where early on, they did not.

 

Regards,

 

Spiff

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Once again, you take things out of context, to further your feeble argument. When it comes to TRASH, when it's obvious...get rid of it. When it comes to an item you don't think is valuable enough...even if it's obvious to you, leave it alone. Those are two completely different situations.

 

So once again, it comes down to what I said earlier... "do what you think is right" as opposed to what others have said, which is "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

 

So here is the scenario to test your perspective:

 

I see in a cache items that have been in the cache for, apparently, a year or more... that have been handled, set in the dirt, stepped on, scratched, broken, otherwise destroyed by cachers over many many visits. Their value has been CHANGING over time to where the original person that valued it when they left it might not care to have it anymore. Where once a 2003 commenrative edition Santa Coke can (empty) now looks like something I passed on the side of the road 10 minutes ago, crushed and scratched.

 

Half of the stuff in the cache has degraded to this point.

 

Now... I decide to take this "trashed" half of the cache as a "cache angel", and leave a dollar bill, with the intent of throwing out the stuff I traded for.

 

Thumbs up?

 

Thumbs down?

 

Enlighten us.

 

 

Also, for background... I know an amazing and wonderful girl that has, all her life, collected "teasures". A stick. A leaf. An acorn. A feather. SHE TRULY TREASURES these things. She keeps them. Accumulates them.

 

She is nine. She caches.

 

Now... the next time you see a 2 inch twig in a cache... the next time you see an acorn in a cache. A portion of a leaf....

 

What will you do?

Edited by SpiffJr
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For a VERY interesting take on this exact same issue, by a different group of people... look for this *exact same* issue discussed in the Cito area, under the title "New Cito idea".

 

(there is a reason why I posted in both areas... and that is the different mind set)

 

You will find that other people see this issue differently.

 

That which was oh-so-simple and "clear" in your mind may not be so simple anymore. The Cito people have brought up some good points for your consideration.

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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1.)  Trash out the empty Reese's Cup wrapper

 

2.)  Give the Reese's Cup to Momma Marauder

 

3.)  Leave the pretty rock for me!

 

Any questions?

Well, yes, actually... what do you want me to do with:

 

"expired coupons, no-longer-elastic balloons, someone's business card, crumpled bumper stickers, or a rusty keyring."

 

Or how about soap bubbles... that freeze and burst inside the cache... now that winter is coming!

 

(Oh and by the way, the "pretty rock" is sarcastic... it is exactly like the millions of rocks that make up the gravel road just 10 feet from the cache, and is not in any way uniquely pretty when compared to each other piece of gravel that is the road.)

Edited by SpiffJr
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Use common sense. Something you may not find here in the forums, from time to time. Besides, your in Cali.........

California is indeed an odd bird in many ways... I'll freely admit that as a native of it <_<

 

As is often the case with "common sense" it would be better if more people had it ! (I'm sure I stole that from a famous orator, but not sure who).

 

I have discovered in the Cito area that the "Cache Angel" activity that I have been describing (and so villified here), has actually been around and is in use by cachers of some experience.

 

As the sport matures... and it is so very young, (May 2000?) there are inevitabilities that we face, among them, the abandonment of caches by their 'owners'.

 

Guys get girlfriends, people get laid off and find work in Montana, they get cancer and die... etc. and with that, owners and caches get separated.

 

As time goes by, it is a certainty that abandoned caches will increase in number, and also, as more caches are added, the number of abandoned caches will rise.

 

These facts point toward decay of which there is no identified mechanism to deal with that I have heard of (even though I have asked around), and there is considerable inertia attached to not altering the contents of a cache except through trade.

 

It also seems dubious to me that Groundspeak Inc. is in a position to organize and drive an "abandoned cache recovery activity" that stipulates a mechanism to alter cache contents (there may be legal issues that would challenge their ability to do so). "I go on vacaion, and you instructed someone else to claim my cache... you b*stards!" You can see the problem...

 

So I think it comes down to what you have said in few words: "Use common sense." which in an area where disagreement is heavy... probably means "Do what you think is right."

 

You will notice that as "clear" as the issues appear to have been in the minds of most contributors here... nobody has felt, shall I say, "inclined", enough to give a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to the "Cache Angel" scenario, which has some potentially interesting ethics pitfalls in it.

 

Yet it also has utility enough to address the unavoidable phenomena of increased abandonment of caches.

 

 

I'm sure some/all of this has been discussed before... and I sure wish I knew where to find it...

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

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...what do you want me to do with:

 

"expired coupons, no-longer-elastic balloons, someone's business card, crumpled bumper stickers, or a rusty keyring."

 

Or how about soap bubbles... that freeze and burst inside the cache... now that winter is coming!...

  • expired coupons - trash out
  • no-longer-elastic balloons - leave in or trade for (how can you tell that they are no longer elastic?)
  • business card - leave in or trade for, probably a sig item
  • crumpled bumper stickers - smooth out and leave in or trade for
  • rusty keyring - leave in or trade for
  • soap bubbles - trade for or email cache owner

Edited by sbell111
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Regardless of how many finds you have - you clearly state you are new.  You are not the first new person to suggest this and I wonder if your opinions on trading, as well as your zeal for this cache content crusade will  be the same after several hundred finds and many months of geocaching.

I wouldn't worry about that SD. We've all seen his type before (probably last Christmas) and we'll see it again (next Christmas). He'll never make it to several hundred finds. I doubt he'll make it to several dozen. He'll find 10-12, hide one, then lose interest and move on to something else. His one abandoned cache hide will soon turn into exactly the kind of cache he would trash out (if it doesn't start out that way).

 

Come on people, don't feed the troll!

Wow, I've been out caching all day; see the trolls been here posting all day instead of out GITOing. Lemme revise my prediction to 5 caches before he quits.

That sure is a hungry troll!

Edited by Mopar
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Unless I am mistaken -- the answer you seek is:

 

Do not trash out items. Trade for them.

 

There are semantics around wrappers, decayed paper and the like -- these detract from the nut of the argument. People don't want you trashing out their items based on your own editorial perspective (from everything I have read here and elsewhere). People do seem to agree on some foundational definitions of trash.

 

In any subjective, or otherwise "grey" area involving the definintion of trash -- err on the side of caution and trade for the item. If that makes you an "angel" then you may find yourself crowned the "first saint of Geocaching" -- the Pope may need to be involved to formalize the process.

 

I'm always grateful when people trade out items of a lesser value for a higher value. Of course, I'm just happy if they sign the log. I'm also happy if they just enjoy the cache. Actually.... I'm just happy.... geocaching is fun!

 

Really, I think the question is answered already.

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These facts point toward decay of which there is no identified mechanism to deal with that I have heard of (even though I have asked around), and there is considerable inertia attached to not altering the contents of a cache except through trade.

I'm pretty sure this was already pointed out earlier in this thread, but if a cache has decayed so far that contents are ruined, container is bad, something truly awful is in the cache, etc., etc., then you simply email the cache owner and/or submit a "should be archived" log on the cache itself.

 

The SBA notifies the approvers that the cache needs attention. They then try to work with the owner to get it cleaned up and ultimately archive and remove the listing if it comes to that.

 

There's clearly a way to handle these problems...and yes, sometimes, "cache angels" adopt a cache in need of repair - either formally or informally.

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I'm pretty sure this was already pointed out earlier in this thread, but if a cache has decayed so far that contents are ruined, container is bad, something truly awful is in the cache, etc., etc., then you simply email the cache owner and/or submit a "should be archived" log on the cache itself.

 

The SBA notifies the approvers that the cache needs attention. They then try to work with the owner to get it cleaned up and ultimately archive and remove the listing if it comes to that.

Actually, if you find a cache that is in bad shape and may be abandoned - an email to the owner is the first thing you should do. If they've been on the website recently and don't reply, a second email would be a nice thing. If they haven't been around for months - a should be archived note should be posted so approvers can deal with it.

 

SBA doesn't mean "needs maintenance" it means "should be archived". They're not the same thing.

 

------

 

I really think instead of debating what should be done, perhaps the OP should get out and find some caches. It's easy to contemplate what should be done and how successful it will be without much real world experience. Besides - it's not about debating on the forums - it's about finding caches. That's the point of the game.

 

I agree with Mopar - I doubt this cacher will be around long if trading is the primary reason he wants to play. It's a nice part of the game, but most people that get into it because they think they're going to find tangible treasure (as opposed to the treasure of being in nature, finding a well hidden cache, solving a multi or puzzle that is tricky, completing a strenous hike, or most of all meeting many wonderful people who enjoy this sport) are often disappointed.

 

southdeltan

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[*]expired coupons - trash out

[*]no-longer-elastic balloons - leave in or trade for (how can you tell that they are no longer elastic?)

[*]business card  -  leave in or trade for, probably a sig item

[*]crumpled bumper stickers  -  smooth out and leave in or trade for

[*]rusty keyring  -  leave in or trade for

[*]soap bubbles  -  trade for or email cache owner

Yeah, what he said...

 

Spiff, I hope you're having fun with this thread and learning a lot. I'm not being facetious here. You could be learning that the geocaching community is a diverse group of individuals who are playing a game and having a great time at it.

 

I suspect those that get too caught up in the details of every little part of it are the ones who stop caching after a while. It's not for everyone.

 

This afternoon the Marauders spent an hour in the woods with a family of people I never met before. That cache was a tough find! And after the other guys finally spotted it and we opened it ... I don't remember any complaining - just a lot of laughing from 5 young boys who just watched their parents climb all over things - with them - for an hour.

 

Quality time - quality people - a rusty key chain? candy wrapper? I don't remember - because that wasn't the important part.

 

Have a great time caching with your kids and remember to save all the pretty rocks for me (even the gravely ones have shiny parts in them I like to look at.)

 

Hmmmmmm, gravely rocks and cachers.... maybe some similarities there!

 

Momma Marauder

 

(edited because apparently - I can't proofread very well!)

Edited by Morgan's Marauders
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Unless I am mistaken -- the answer you seek is:

 

Do not trash out items.  Trade for them.

 

Right... good, common sense... the basic trade.

 

That's the easy part. Here is the hard part that, so far, NOBODY has figured out what to do with this... I hear lots of loosely associated advice, but no direct presponse to this.

 

Here is the scenario:

 

I see in a cache items that have been in the cache for, apparently, a very long time... that have been handled, set in the dirt, stepped on, scratched, broken, and otherwise destroyed by cachers over many many visits. Their value has been CHANGING over time to where the original person that valued it when they left it might not care to have it anymore.

 

Half of the stuff in the cache has degraded to this point.

 

It is a picture of neglect.

 

Now... I decide to take this "trashed" half of the cache as a "cache angel", and leave a dollar bill, with the intent of throwing out the stuff I traded for.

 

There is no actual intent to trade. The intent is to clean. A trade happens only to cover my butt, adhering to basic game 'rules'.

 

Thumbs up?

 

Thumbs down?

 

This was formulated in only my second post of the thread... so I'm wondering why so many people with opinions don't seem to have an opinion on this scenario. It's a real scenario, and probably happens in many places every day. Good? Bad? Proper? Improper? Helpful? Hurtful? (and why)

Edited by SpiffJr
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I, at least, have tried to offer a philosophical basis for defining when that moment occurrs... where its removal reasonably improves the cache.

What you don't seem to understand is, that "point" is different for a great many different people. What if you found a McToy that had a crack in it? Someone would call it broken, and garbage. But what about the kid who wanted one of those, and doesn't care about a crack?

That's already totally understood. I could write a 10 volume set on the perils of subjectivity. It's childs play.

 

And it changes nothing about what this thread is about.

 

Work the scenario.

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so let me get this straight...

 

Almost everyone in this thread that has told you that obvious trash (candy wrappers, etc) is ok to remove, and other things that are not so clear, can be traded for....all those comments....have led you to THIS conclusion?

 

The key word here is *almost* everyone. And in *this* thread.

 

In *another* thread, there is a perspective that is decidedly different.

 

So which thread do I side with?

 

Which seasoned veterans should be listened to?

 

For example a *charter member* of these forums since 2001 has indicated specifics that seem much at odds with your assertions and those of others.

 

You showed up in only the last couple of months, yes?

 

Work the scenario. It first appeared on note #4. It enjoys a more refined/complete form above. Still waiting for an answer. From anybody.

Edited by SpiffJr
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Here is the scenario:

 

I see in a cache items that have been in the cache for, apparently, a very long time... that have been handled, set in the dirt, stepped on, scratched, broken, and otherwise destroyed by cachers over many many visits. Their value has been CHANGING over time to where the original person that valued it when they left it might not care to have it anymore.

 

Half of the stuff in the cache has degraded to this point.

 

It is a picture of neglect.

 

Now... I decide to take this "trashed" half of the cache as a "cache angel", and leave a dollar bill, with the intent of throwing out the stuff I traded for.

 

There is no actual intent to trade. The intent is to clean. A trade happens only to cover my a**, adhering to basic game 'rules'.

 

Thumbs up?

 

Thumbs down?

 

Well... leaving money in a cache is never a good idea. Also, trading one items for an undisclosed amount of items is also suspect and not really fair in my book -- but it's far better than what some folks would do.

 

However, if you traded -- regardless of your motivation or intent (cleaning, caching, collecting) then I, personally, have no problems -- you traded.

 

I think that is a general consensus in what I've read. Trades are trades and that is all good (if you're even into that aspect of the game) Saying you are "trashing out the cache" or that you are "maintaining" the cache as a "cache angel" is using language that has some very specific conentations that some find offensive (sorry, but you can see its true)

 

Write this: "Visited cache. Four items were completely trashed. Traded them for four nice new items. Love me."

 

I think that would make everyone happy.

In the end, the cache is improved, the game is improved, no new rules are added, everyone is respected.

 

Write this: "Visited cache. It was all junk. There was a little figure of a devil which is evil and offends me. Threw items into trash nearby. Left nothing. If this was my cache I'd throw it all away."

 

People might be .... well.... you know.... less loving. It adds your subjectivity to the process which not everyone will appreciate.

 

Hope this helps.

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Re: the money thing... really? Never heard of money as a bad idea. Curious about as to why... but that's an aside.

 

Saying you are "trashing out the cache" or that you are "maintaining" the cache as a "cache angel" is using language that has some very specific conentations that some find offensive

 

Apparently... although, correct me if I am wrong... *I* have not ever said that I "trash out a cache". I think I have been clear that I was asking about it in a coneptual manner.

 

I appreciate your candor... that regardless of motivation, a trade is a trade.

 

Cool.

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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[*]expired coupons - trash out

[*]no-longer-elastic balloons - leave in or trade for (how can you tell that they are no longer elastic?)

[*]business card  -  leave in or trade for, probably a sig item

[*]crumpled bumper stickers  -  smooth out and leave in or trade for

[*]rusty keyring  -  leave in or trade for

[*]soap bubbles  -  trade for or email cache owner

 

Thanks, I appreciate guidance from a charter member!

 

And yet, here is where I got confused... another charter member from 2001 had this to say on this exact topic:

 

"I agree that removing these types of things makes the cache better. There's no redeeeming value to expired coupons, no-longer-elastic balloons, someone's business card, crumpled bumper stickers, or a rusty keyring."

 

So please, understand that there is *strong* reason for confusion... making the advice to "listen to the veterans" as not especially helpful... meanwhile everyone had a dog-pile on me, claiming in essance that I have been thick headed in the face of veteran advice. Problem is, *which* veteran?

 

I guess non-veterans succumb to the belief that they know what veterans will say. (but if so, then what is the need for the veteran, yes?)

 

At least everyone agrees on expired coupons :-)

 

(well, I don't... actually. Depending on the coupon, one MIGHT have luck redeeming it... I know I have had expired coupons honored at times.)

 

Spiff

 

PS... please DO NOT confront the person that wrote the quote above. There is no call for such a thing. I can take the heat. That does not mean anyone else should.

Edited by SpiffJr
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you will see that the issue has been discussed on numerous occasions (as has this one)

 

I have been looking for a pointer to previous discussion... glad to hear that it has been discussed! Can you point me to where it is? What to search under?

 

I have not had luck finding it.

 

Regards,

 

Spiff

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Re: the money thing... really? Never heard of money as a bad idea. Curious about as to why... but that's an aside.

 

Saying you are "trashing out the cache" or that you are "maintaining" the cache as a "cache angel" is using language that has some very specific conentations that some find offensive

 

Apparently... although, correct me if I am wrong... *I* have not ever said that I "trash out a cache". I think I have been clear that I was asking about it in a coneptual manner.

 

Yeah -- money is a funny topic. The main reason I think it's a poor choice is because it may encourage cache-crooks, but that's probably another topic.

 

Also, I didn't mean to suggest you said something you did not -- my bad if I did. It's sort of something I noticed here in the forums when folks raise topics related to the QUALITATIVE aspects of cache contents. It's been stated previously that we need to balance quality against quantity etc, etc. the general trend I've seen is for folks to say "leave my cache alone!" -- which , in some ways defeats the purpose of the game! <_<

 

I think that if the question is simply stated as: "can I trade items I think are junk out of a cache for items I think are good into the cache?" the answer would be yes -- or "thumbs up"

However, be aware that if you ask the question "Can I trade something that I think is junk into a cache and take out something I think is good?" the answer might also be -- thumbs up. At least from me it would be.

 

If you are placing great items into caches (or, even better, creating caches with great items) you'll soon get a reputatition in your area as a cacher to follow or whos caches get visits.

 

I may be paraphrasing, but is the original question you are asking as simple as: "can I trade good items for items I consider junk?"

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I may be paraphrasing, but is the original question you are asking as simple as: "can I trade good items for items I consider junk?"

 

Not in actual fact. There were two questions:

 

A "paraphrased" version of the first question was:

 

"Can I take out items that obviously hurt (degrade) the cache without a trade?" (ie trash, or I think I said "things that should have been land-fill"). (to which at least one seasoned veteran has said 'yes'.)

 

DaveA raised concerns, so I asked the revised question in my very next response which you have reasonably paraphrased (but lacks the key mention of intent to clean out)

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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"Can I take out items that obviously hurt (degrade) the cache without a trade?" (ie trash, or I think I said "things that should have been land-fill").

 

Okay -- thumbs down.

That isn't a trade. You are taking and not giving. Subjectively at that.

 

The rest of the thread seems to try to catagorize items.. I don't care. Take out the bubble gum wrapper and throw in a cool toy. I think that you improve the cache and the sport more by leaving good stuff.

 

Hey.... you can even post a took nothing, left something if you want. I disagree with took something, left nothing. (although if a someone really wants something from my cache they can go ahead and do that)

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DaveA raised concerns, so I asked the revised question in my very next response which you have reasonably paraphrased (but lacks the key mention of intent to clean out)

 

Intent to clean out.

 

Intentions for trading or caching (trading, collecting, cleaning) are no concern to me as a cache owner. Intent to "manage" my caches is something I am not as comfortable with.

 

Hopefully that comes across okay.

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Okay -- thumbs down.

That isn't a trade. You are taking and not giving. Subjectively at that.

 

Like I said, DaveA had problems, so I modified the question... so the one you are responding to now has not been in play since the earliest minutes of the thread. (my second post)

Edited by SpiffJr
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Yeah. This topic probably got heated when the topic became what is/is not junk.

Nobody can stop you from visiting a cache and doing whatever you want. So, as long as you are happy.....Have fun!

 

(I STILL would prefer you to leave stuff behind in my caches though! -- but we are likely many miles apart so that is a remote possibility at best.)

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Regardless of how many finds you have - you clearly state you are new.  You are not the first new person to suggest this and I wonder if your opinions on trading, as well as your zeal for this cache content crusade will  be the same after several hundred finds and many months of geocaching.

I wouldn't worry about that SD. We've all seen his type before (probably last Christmas) and we'll see it again (next Christmas). He'll never make it to several hundred finds. I doubt he'll make it to several dozen. He'll find 10-12, hide one, then lose interest and move on to something else. His one abandoned cache hide will soon turn into exactly the kind of cache he would trash out (if it doesn't start out that way).

 

Come on people, don't feed the troll!

Man Mopar I would figure that you out of everyone would be a little nicer to a guy who is (when you get through everything) only trying to make a better quality cache to find. I have also dug through 5 pounds of broken toys and crap to find the logbook. And for the quote about he will find 5 and go away...... I used to be the guy who posted thoughts on here and me and you have butted heads before on thoughts (used to run by the name krn187 to refresh your memory) and I now have 242 in 9 months of caching. My 2cents. Spiff don't let them get you down. <_<

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I used to be the guy who posted thoughts on here and me and you have butted heads before on thoughts (used to run by the name krn187 to refresh your memory) and I now have 242 in 9 months of caching.  My 2cents.  Spiff don't let them get you down. <_<

 

Thanks, man.

 

Appreciate the kind words. I guess it's good to know, in a sick sort of way, that Mopar is an equal opportunity harasser.

 

Spiff

(still breathing at the bottom of the dog pile)

Edited by SpiffJr
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A quick question. I think we agree that we trade up, but does that also mean item for item? For example; if I left a 5.00 item and took three .50 cent toys would that not be considered a fair trade? Or would it only be fair if I took one toy and left my 5.00 item. If the first example is considered a fair trade then someone taking out junk, (lots of it) and leaving a nice item would have made a fair trade. <_<

 

2tango

Edited by 2Tango
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This would be a common question...

 

The original "bucket" left in an Oregon forest (if memory serves) had this simple rule: "If you take stuff, leave stuff". That was the birth of Geocaching, before it even had a name.

 

To preserve the cache, and counter the forces of evil, the "campsite" ethic is often cited: "Leave the cache better then how you found it".

 

It is all based on trust and love for the activity.

 

Do what you feel is right.

 

You are trusted.

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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Here is the scenario:

 

I see in a cache items that have been in the cache for, apparently, a very long time... that have been handled, set in the dirt, stepped on, scratched, broken, and otherwise destroyed by cachers over many many visits. Their value has been CHANGING over time to where the original person that valued it when they left it might not care to have it anymore.

 

Half of the stuff in the cache has degraded to this point.

 

It is a picture of neglect.

 

Now... I decide to take this "trashed" half of the cache as a "cache angel", and leave a dollar bill, with the intent of throwing out the stuff I traded for.

 

There is no actual intent to trade.  The intent is to clean.  A trade happens only to cover my butt, adhering to basic game 'rules'.

 

Thumbs up?

 

Thumbs down?

 

This was formulated in only my second post of the thread... so I'm wondering why so many people with opinions don't seem to have an opinion on this scenario.  It's a real scenario, and probably happens in many places every day.  Good? Bad? Proper? Improper? Helpful? Hurtful? (and why)

OK, thumbs down. Now let me explain - and please read it all before you rant at me like you have to just about everyone who hasn't agreed with you (you seem to have the ability to irritate just about everybody on these forums).

 

A hypothetical question is hard to answer, being pretty slanted towards the answer wanted (which seems, in your case, to be YES). You list several things that seem at loggerheads: "items in cache for very long time"; "many, many visits"; "picture of neglect" - you make it sound like a popular cache that everyone goes for, never trades anything in, and the owner hasn't done anything with it since it was placed (and apperantly doesn't care about it) - a rare case. Every cache need maintanence - by the cache OWNER. It's not you duty/right/responsibility to do that. If the cache owner is gone (left game, moved, or such) then you can adopt the cache (contact your local approver), and THEN you can do maintanence on it. Because that is what you described - "no intent to trade"; "intend to throw out items"; "cover butt".

 

What you propose is to take half of the trade items and leave one item (dollar). Flat out wrong. But don't cry "I'm cleaning not trading" - that's for the cache owner to do - aside from you "cover my butt" line ("I'll make it legal by trading the dollar"). How did that "improve the quality of the cache"? "I removed junk/trash" is countered by "You took half the cache for one item" - hardly 'trading up'.

 

What is junk/trash? You probably have confused most readers of this thread by using these two word interchanably. Several of your early posts stated/implied that junk was low quility items. So it sounds like if an item was in YOUR eyes junk (cracked toy, rock - you missed 'used golf ball' a popular item to moan about around here) you could "clean it" from the cache, without trading. That, I think, is the sticking point for most of this thread. As to defining this, you found a "charter member from 2001" to quote (that agrees with your stand) and so discount other opinions. As a counter to

"I agree that removing these types of things makes the cache better. There's no redeeeming value to expired coupons, no-longer-elastic balloons, someone's business card, crumpled bumper stickers, or a rusty keyring."
I'm a charter member from 2001: I disagree that removing these will always make a cache better. You, yourself, said expired coupons aren't trash, you've had them honored; business cards are collected by lots of cachers (many have stated so in lots of threads); most bumper stickers I've seen in caches would smooth out fine; and keychains are generally only rusty on the ring, which costs pennies to get (most would be too small for my keys, so would have to be changed out anyway if I wanted to use it). So now you have two equally weighted opinions, do I have to guess which one you'll favor?

 

I'll be curious to what you answer from my post, and what you ignore. That will really answer the question about if you are just being a troll or not.

 

edit: because I hit the wrong key & posted, not previewed.

Edited by The Jester
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OK, thumbs down.  Now let me explain - and please read it all before you rant at me like you have to just about everyone who hasn't agreed with you (you seem to have the ability to irritate just about everybody on these forums). 

 

What, you mean like you just did me, unprovoked?

 

The hypocrisy of some people... astounding.

 

If you want to answer a question, participate, then do so. Unprovoked subbing is a lowlife activity, and has no place here.

 

Mopar made the rounds through here before you... and has at least some reputation for roaming into threads and stirring crap, like you just did.

 

Insulting me before we have even exchanged one single post is beyond the pale.

 

BTW- I would have enjoyed responding to your post. It has thoughtful arguments... but my policy, learned from this thread, is not to feed those that start with personal snubs. You lost the chance to discuss this issue with me. Sorry.

Edited by SpiffJr
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Methinks the topic has lost it's luster.

 

There really isn't anything new coming to light here. Either you trade or you "clean" according to your definition of "clean". As far as I'm concerned, if you "clean" my cache there is nothing I can do about it, but as the cache owner, I do not appreciate if you "clean" my cache. In fact, I think it is not nice, but really rude. I also don't want you mowing my lawn, fertilizing my flowers, washing my car, sleeping with my wife or feeding my dog.

 

Hunt it. Find it. Trade for whatever you want with whatever you have. Try to trade fair, but I don't care. ($5 to 50cents -- I'm not counting and I don't care it isn't about monitary value).

 

Your time and energy is probably best spent on planting and maintaining your OWN caches rather than running around and waving your angelic cache-wand upon others.

 

So if you are seeking my approval (and why would you) to run around and clean caches -- my answer is a resounding "no thanks" I'm okay with the way things are, don't need/want your help. Happy when you visit my cache, log it, trade into/out of it. Not happy when you "fix" my "window" (refering to the broken window syndrome you refereneced earlier).

 

If you want to use broken windows in the neighbourhood as an example, remember that where these types of laws exist it is still the reponsibility of the OWNER to fix the window -- not the neighbours. If the building is abandoned then contact the "city" *geocaching.com and have them "archive" it AFTER attempting to contact the owner through responable and proper channels.

 

That's my answer at the start and that's my answer at the end. There has been nothing here to shed light on why my way of thinking needs to be re-examined at this point. I don't care if I find a cache full of stuff I don't want/like/need/love.

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