Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4
Kai Team

Geocachers' Code

Recommended Posts

Okay, my last post was a little unfair and loaded. Of course you can't come up with a definition of a "safe" cache.

 

Look, how "safe" is it to cross a road? See how loaded that is?

 

I could cross the road in front of my house blind and deaf, without any sense of danger. Why? Because the few people who do drive on it go slow, they would be able to see me long before I was in any danger.

 

How about crossing a busy interstate? ARE YOU NUTS!?!?!? Chances of my crossing a typical section of interstate around here are not good. At the very least I'd likely cause an accident if I didn't get killed outright.

 

But, we have people crossing streets every day. Just where do we set the line of what street is and what street isn't safe to cross, and for whom is a particular street safe to cross? See? It varies greatly from person to person.

Share this post


Link to post

Posted the code on Nebraskache website 12/30/04.

 

____

 

I too have concerns that without some teeth behind it, the code is just a Hallmark card for geocaching.

 

If someone dumps a dozen lame caches, will GC prevent them from dumping a dozen more?

 

If people go on cache machines and log 200 caches with TNLN only, will they face a consequence?

 

I really think that this is something that the initiators of this effort need to address SOON.

 

The approach taken in HAM radio is that there is a base set of data for a QSL (a competition communication). If the data isn't there, it doesn't count. The base set of data is a good idea for all e-cache logs.

 

The base set of data should include what day& time you found the cache, what its condition is, what you traded (if you don't trade, then some update as to what is there (specifically about travel bugs)), and the number of empty log sheets there are for the paper cache (an approximation would be fine).

 

This set would give the owner a sense of when the cache is hunted (morning, night), how its holding up, what sort of items are in it, and how soon will there need to be a new log book. It would also be a back up for the TB system which seems to not work very well at updating the location of TB's that go missing.

 

This would make the electronic logs useful and give some consequence to the log issue as a TNLN would be seen as a substandard log entry. Perhaps a TNLN would be grounds for the cache find to not count?

Share this post


Link to post

This would assume the pasttime is a competition. For many it isn't.

 

It's already been mentioned that cache owners appreciate feedback. TNLN logs isn't much feedback other than the cache is still there and isn't in too bad of shape. I guess, also, that's all that some owners need.

 

There really isn't going to be any "teeth" to it other than what other folks think about you. I can be a royal bunghole here on the forums and until I cross a certain line I don't get bit. People will think less of me and that affects what little reputation I have. If that bothers me, I change my tune.

 

It's the same with The Code.

Share this post


Link to post
Okay, my last post was a little unfair and loaded. Of course you can't come up with a definition of a "safe" cache.

 

Look, how "safe" is it to cross a road? See how loaded that is?

 

I could cross the road in front of my house blind and deaf, without any sense of danger. Why? Because the few people who do drive on it go slow, they would be able to see me long before I was in any danger.

 

How about crossing a busy interstate? ARE YOU NUTS!?!?!? Chances of my crossing a typical section of interstate around here are not good. At the very least I'd likely cause an accident if I didn't get killed outright.

 

But, we have people crossing streets every day. Just where do we set the line of what street is and what street isn't safe to cross, and for whom is a particular street safe to cross? See? It varies greatly from person to person.

 

I understand that and agree with that as most of its common sense. The problem i have is caches like this

 

What i have a problem with is that all ages of people geocahce. So with that said would you want someone like a teenage could be your son that has no regard for safety to be able to can access to a cache like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...6d-b605bce46814

 

This cache should have never been approved. I understand and agree with having challenging caches but when you have to be Indiana Jones to complete it, thats to much and would be well against the first code.

 

This is not suppose to be a thrill seekers game to that extreme. If you wanna do that fine, but this isnt a place for it to that extremes as that doesnt seem very safe for anyone. Especially for one that doesn know thier limits and could be killed from it or other caches. Im just using this one as an example as im sure thier are others out there.

 

Now if you wanted caches like this then make a special listing search page for caches like these to where you need to check a waiver or be 18 and over to search for caches like these.

 

If this code would help to promote safer caches within the limtis of all like this game was intended to be played them im all for it. If caches like these get out of hand then no one will be able to cache and people will start dying and giving bad PR of this game and the possiblity of lawsuites since this site is held solely accoutable for the context that is approved and placed.

Share this post


Link to post

I have been away for a few days. When did we turn from discussing distribution of the Code of Ethics to recommending that the listing service pass judgment on the safety of geocaches?

Share this post


Link to post

Because if were are suppose practice or adpot this code it should be issue thats upheld as post in the first guideline:

 

...Not endanger myself or others.

 

Like any outdoor activity, geocaching involves some inherent risk and many geocachers enjoy manageable risks. Minimize inordinate risks.

When creating a cache, describe any hidden dangers and, if possible, arrange the hunt to minimize these dangers.

 

When seeking a cache, know your limitations and be aware of your surroundings. Don't attempt anything beyond your abilities.

 

A cache you own, or one you're trading out of, could be found by children or even a prisoner work crew - consider the location of the cache and those likely to find it when deciding what to leave as a trade item.

 

Isnt that what this code is suppose to promote, safe caching? Correct me if im wrong, but since when did this game turn into an extreme sport that could pose danger or harm to other. Wouldnt that be against the first code?

 

If we are going to follow this code then caches should be placed and approved in an ethnical manner or their is no sense of this code exsiting. It would just be taking up wasted brandwith on other peoples sites including this one.

Share this post


Link to post

Oh. Are you now espousing the position that this site's review process incorporate a test for what is safe and ethnic? I thought you were recently railing about how subjective judgments were allegedly being applied to cache submissions in Texas. What's safe for one geocacher may not be safe for another. Let me make that choice for myself. I do that every time I hunt a cache, and I do it pursuant to the website's terms of use.

 

So how's that Code distribution goin'?

Share this post


Link to post
their is no sense of this code exsiting. It would just be taking up wasted brandwith on other peoples sites including this one.

So what does this "Code" provide that the guidelines and common sense don't?

Share this post


Link to post

Someone put it like this:

A code of ethics must be compatible with our common morality, but it goes beyond our common morality. You could say that the code interprets our common morality for the specific details of the recreational activity/sport/hobby of geocaching. 

. . .

You may argue that common morality is enough, and that there is no need for a code of ethics that seeks to interpret that morality for geocaching.  For you, that may well be true.  But others may benefit by reading the code and applying it to their actions.  The importance and benefits of codes of ethics can be seen by their popularity.  Countless other activities have developed codes of ethics to apply common morality to their sport or hobby.  These include dog breading, hiking, maintaining a museum, driving off-road vehicles, snowmobiling, and running a library, to name a few.  Members of all of these organizations might have said that common morality is enough, yet each group saw a benefit of applying general ethical rules to their own activities.

 

I feel that posting the code will improve geocaching by helping to define accepted (and unacceptable) behaviors, promoting high standards of practice, providing a benchmark for members to use for self-evaluation, and establishing a framework against which to measure appropriate behavior and responsibilities.

Oh . . . That was me.

Share this post


Link to post
their is no sense of this code exsiting. It would just be taking up wasted brandwith on other peoples sites including this one.

So what does this "Code" provide that the guidelines and common sense don't?

By guideliens I assume you mean GC.com's guidelines? Those are a mix of things good for geocaching and good for this site. You would have to prune the guidelines from this site to pare it down to a personal creed.

 

Plus you can represent things in the Code/Creed that you just can't touch with a site. Like not endangering others. A listing site can't touch that with a 10' pole. It's a legal quagmire. However you can say something about it in a code.

Share this post


Link to post

The previous two posts didn't show me where common sense and the guidelines alone wouldn't work.

 

If the "Code" says to cache safe and not endanger others, to me that's just common sense. If it defines what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, to me that's what the guidelines are for.

 

Why do we need a small group of cachers trying to lay down unneccesary and unenforcable laws?

Share this post


Link to post
If the "Code" says to cache safe and not endanger others, to me that's just common sense.

 

Yea you would think and i agree. The thing is some people dont have any common sense or know thier limits. For exmaple kids, if i cant trust them be safe and not do certain caches that get approved that shouldnt be then how is that fair for the ones that are concerned about safety rather than how challeneing a cache should be if this is the code everyone is suppose to follow? I understand what isnt safe for one might be safe for others, but what about the ones that are safe for nobody. Why are and should these caches be approved. BTW this has nothing to do with whats going on in Texas.

 

Why do we need a small group of cachers trying to lay down unneccesary and unenforcable laws?

 

Thats my point exactly. If they are common sense guidelines and whats mostly important like cacher safety is unenforcable, then whats the point of these "Codes"?

 

Plus you can represent things in the Code/Creed that you just can't touch with a site. Like not endangering others. A listing site can't touch that with a 10' pole. It's a legal quagmire. However you can say something about it in a code.

 

Thats very true, but a owner is solely responsible for the content of its site. That includes the listing of unsafe caches that could pose harm to numbers of people. So shouldnt that be a strong common sense guideline? You would think, but isnt being practiced.

Edited by Texan78

Share this post


Link to post
What i have a problem with is that all ages of people geocahce. So with that said would you want someone like a teenage could be your son that has no regard for safety to be able to can access to a cache like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...6d-b605bce46814

 

This cache should have never been approved. I understand and agree with having challenging caches but when you have to be Indiana Jones to complete it, thats to much and would be well against the first code.

Guidelines, Code, or Law? I guess I prefer to think of it as a philosophy. Yes, I agree that the majority of cachers are not death seeking thrill seekers, but on the other hand I don't disagree with personal responsibility.

 

Having grown up in Oregon (and done a fair amount of climbing there), I can only imagine what a death trap of rock fall that cache must be <_< . With a cache like that, I'd probably hike up to the rapell point, take a look down, and decide whether it was worth it or not.

 

Case in point: during a recent visit to Hawaii, there were two difficult caches that I considered. One was on a small island that required swimming/kayaking across relatively open ocean to get to. The other was a desperate climb up vegetated and slippery rock with an exposed fall (certainly to your death). In both cases, I had no problem assessing the situation and deciding it wasn't worth it. I expect other cachers to make their own decisions just like I did.

Share this post


Link to post
What i have a problem with is that all ages of people geocahce.

All ages and all skill levels.

 

If we had to make it safe for 90%+ of all cachers then nothing would be above a 3 terrain. Geocaching in general shouldn't be limited to the lowest common demoninator. If there were no extreme caches, or even just ones that make the physically fit break a sweat, then you'd lose a lot of people and the game would turn into something for only families with children to pursue.

 

I don't see anything about the linked cache that makes it so unsafe that no cacher should attempt it. I might not, but I also might have to go look at it to see. Of course, I'm might be a bit biased having completed Tube Torcher, did Bradly's Bottom in 25° weather (down frozen cliffs and jumping from boulder to boulder over rushing water) and even own a 5/5 ourselves. But you'll note that few have actually done those caches. TT is the most famous one and still has what I would consider a relative few finds for one being around so long and so many people watching it.

 

No, I think the tenet is good as it stands.

Share this post


Link to post

I like the code and will review it with my kids who often cache with me. It's perfect for this as some of my friendly reminders to them often go unheeded when they feel the "thril of the hunt".

 

Not sure why so many have such thin skin and want to fight old battles over again. Thanks to the team that developed this for creating a useful tool and making a worthwhile contribution to our sport. /Lefty (of Team K,H&J)

Share this post


Link to post
In the "Not endanger myself or others" part, Not carrying a firearm would ne a nice addition I think. :D

It would fit in with the "blind obedience of politician's whims" clause above (phrased as "obeying laws" etc..) also which is exactly why I would oppose it.

 

Note, the Boy Scout's Code of Ethics doesn't mention this....

 

Hope no one speeds while seeking a cache. :D

 

I see this as a waste of time at best.

Share this post


Link to post
I see this as a waste of time at best.

So don't use it. Problem solved :D

Share this post


Link to post
Note, the Boy Scout's Code of Ethics doesn't mention this....

 

The Scout Oath includes "obedient," and The Promise says I will "do my duty to...my Country"

 

Blind obedience is better than blind disobedience. It amazes me how some people will refuse to do something they otherwise want to do, because they won't let "anyone tell them what to do!" :D

 

My comment is aimed at no one in particular, just the general forum rabble. This is the only private company I know that let's disgruntled customers hang out in the lobby and gripe to other customers. :D

Share this post


Link to post
I see this as a waste of time at best.

Time is wasted when you spend it doing something you don't care about.

If you don't care about a code, then like Jeremy said, don't use it.

 

Similar to a gift you may be on the receiving end of the code.

Whether you appreciate what is given is up to you after you receive it.

 

Kenneth

Share this post


Link to post

Theres a code? ? ? Really? ? ?

 

Just messing with you.

 

The code is really easy though. Simply RESPECT everything you come into contact with.

 

:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post

The Scout Oath includes "obedient," and The Promise says I will "do my duty to...my Country"

 

More and more, the laws of the government are becoming antithetical to what this country was founded on.

Share this post


Link to post
More and more, the laws of the government are becoming antithetical to what this country was founded on.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Share this post


Link to post

The arguement about safe caching and the variety of cachers hunting them could be settled with better definition of terms and clearer difficulty ratings. The 5 step difficulty and terrain ratings are great for very hard ones and for very easy ones. They are not so good for ones that are a little harder than a 1 but not hard enough for a 2, and the terrain ones really fall off when anything that can't be reached in a wheelchair has to be more than a 1. This creates a cluster of caches in the 1-3 range that can be physically challenging, but rate only a 1.5 and others that are at the end of a easy long walk that get 2.5 to 3 just due to the distance.

 

The ratings system was debated a while ago, and it was programmatically unfeasible to change it. Perhaps a required part of the cache description would be a breakdown of the two ratings. A cache that programmed out at 1.5 but involved a short walk over a fragile bridge over a stream could be so noted, and a 3 that was basically at the end of a 1.5 mile walk along a dike pathway could also be so noted. Thus players that could handle the walk but didn't want their kids to deal with a rickety bridge could make a more thoughtful choice as to what they would hunt.

 

That coupled with the required basic data set for cache logs would be how I would implement the code. Teeth added that if you didn't want to follow these two, that perhaps you would be willing to list your caches elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
I have been away for a few days.  When did we turn from discussing distribution of the Code of Ethics to recommending that the listing service pass judgment on the safety of geocaches?

Geez - I've also been away for a few days and look what happens! <_<

 

Discussions of safey, or anyting other than distribution of the Code are off-topic in this forum, as I've tried to point out nicely several times above. If you want to discuss the content of the code, or it's merits, please do so in the forum created for that purpose: HERE!

 

I will be reviewing that thread for suggestions on content, and editing the code to reflect the consensus in that forum. I will not take suggestions for changing the content of the code from this forum - so you're wasting your breath debating content in this forum!

 

Thank you for your understanding of the need to keep this thread on-topic so that those interested in discussing distribution of the code will have a place to do so!

 

Edit - typos

Edited by Kai Team

Share this post


Link to post

While I was away, I received an email that said:

 

I'm a committee member of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain.  We've put the Geocachers' Code on our website - you'll find it here.

Many thanks to the GAGB for promoting the Code!

Share this post


Link to post

An update of the Code (now called the "Geocachers' Creed") reflecting minor edits suggested in the refinements thread is now availble in that thread.. If you have any comments on the content of the Creed, please post them in the refinements thread. Please keep this thread on topic (i.e. discussing the distribution of the Creed). Thanks!

Edited by Kai Team

Share this post


Link to post

I would not post something that is voluntary, anywhere personally speaking. I basically already adhere to the majority of these tenets but I would never post or distribute anywhere. Way to many rules!!!!

I also agree with mozart man and may or may not post on the other forum, but why when I see no need to something we already do?

Share this post


Link to post
I would not post something that is voluntary, anywhere personally speaking.  I basically already adhere to the majority of these tenets but I would never post or distribute anywhere.  Way to many rules!!!!

I also agree with mozart man and may or may not post on the other forum, but why when I see no need to something we already do?

I hope that everyone who doesn't plan to distribute the code doesn't decide to say so here (a very thin pretense for going off-topic, chstress53 - you really don't need to tell us if you're not planning to do anything).

 

If you're asking "why" at this late stage, you haven't read the other threads (Development; and Refinements, OR the previous off topic comments in this thread) for extensive discussion of that question.

 

Please read before you post, and post your "why have a code" comments on the appropriate thread. Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post

may or may not post on the other forum, but why

means why should I post to the other forum not why to the code. I have followed those other threads but saw no need to post something I believe is unnessary. And I firmly believe that my opinion about distribution is relevant to this topic, it may not be what you expected or desired but it is in my opinion and I strongly believe everyone is entitled to their opinions. If the Topic title was who wants to distribute I never would have posted but it says discuss and I entered the fray.

Edited by chstress53

Share this post


Link to post

Hi guys!

 

I added a link to this thread over in the UK forums.... it certainly sparked off a debate there!

 

But the main reason for this post is to say that the GAGB (Geocaching Association of Great Britain) has included the guidelines on the GAGB Website.

 

Happy 2005 everyone! And happy caching too!

 

Paul Blitz

GAGB Chairman

Share this post


Link to post
...why when I see no need to something we already do?

By this thinking no site would need a FAQ page. No product would need an instruction manual.

 

It is there for people who don't already know.

 

Distributing it gets in front of more people. The more people who follow "what you already follow" means more people will be on the same page. The more people that are on the same page, the fewer honest mistakes will be made. ...and so on.

Share this post


Link to post

It appears that some of you ‘cachers’ need to get your GEOpanties out of a wad! If the Kai Team, Jeremy or anyone else was handing out $100 dollar bills for free some of you folks would take offense to it. Being very new to this activity, I was looking for some type of ‘guidelines’ to follow. As you see I said ‘guidelines’ not GEO enforceable laws. It’s always nice to have some structure to go by no matter what it is you're doing. Reading many posts and talking to other cachers I was able to glean that the use of ‘common sense’, safety and decency were the best ‘guidelines’ to follow. Now that these and others are incorporated into a published caching ‘Creed’ it will be much easier for the first time cacher to get a handle on what things are expected while participating in this activity. I don’t think the ‘’GEO Police” will be hiding behind the bushes ready to ambush the ‘Creed’ breaker. But, I think we need to police ourselves and ensure we do what’s right to keep this activity fun and safe for all those people who enjoy the outdoors and the adventure of the hunt.

Share this post


Link to post

EZ Spinners wrote: It appears that some of you ‘cachers’ need to get your GEOpanties out of a wad!

 

Please read the whole thread before posting.

This thread is about distribution of the code, not ethics/etc.

Kai Team nicely asked in a previous post.

 

Follow the links in their post to the ones discussing all over opinions/etc. not related to distribution.

 

Kai Team Posted: Jan 3 2005, 10:56 AM 

An update of the Code (now called the "Geocachers' Creed") reflecting minor edits suggested in the refinements thread is now availble in that thread.. If you have any comments on the content of the Creed, please post them in the refinements thread. Please keep this thread on topic (i.e. discussing the distribution of the Creed). Thanks!

 

 

Kenneth

Share this post


Link to post

I read this entire thread as well the other one, K (BEFORE I posted). I’m not talking about ethics here, I’m agreeing with having some type of ‘guidelines’ to go by and having them available for viewing. All new comers to this activity need to know about certain aspects of this sport. Having a ‘Creed’ will offer up some valuable information on some of the Dos and Don’ts.

 

Somehow, I think a panty check is in order here! Hmmm, mine seems to be in order.

 

Anyone else?

Share this post


Link to post

EZ,

 

I appreciate your diligence in reading the threads, and your support! It would be more helpful if you posted these thoughts in the refinements thread, as Kenneth suggested. That's where I've been steering the debate about the value of the Creed, which rages on in that thread...

 

As for this thread, I would welcome your ideas, comments or suggestions about how to distribute the Creed (get the word out). Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post

I am gonna translate it to German and French (ev. even to Danish) and set it up on my website

Share this post


Link to post

In consultation with several other geocachers who have been active in these threads, we've decided to create a web site solely to host the Geocachers' Creed. We've registered a domain name, found a hosting service, and are in the process of creating the pages for the site.

 

Once the Geocachers' Creed site is established, it will help insure the independence of the creed from any site or listing service, consistent with the original intent of the discussions in these threads (the cost and effort is being absorbed by a small group of independent geocachers, without sponsorship). An indepedent site will allow other web sites to link to the Creed, or to update their own postings (which are still encouraged) from a single "master" copy.

 

As soon as the site is ready to go (another week or so), I'll post a link here.

 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to creating and distributing the Creed - it's a testament to the dedication of geocachers to our sport/activity/obession! <_<

Share this post


Link to post

I really liked what you wrote. I copied it and saved it to my computer to show my husband and boys. Just curious though, if we do come upon a cache that we feel has dangerous items in it, what would be the appropriate thing for us to do? I would feel horrible if someone were to be injured because a child or like you suggested a prisoner on a work crew stumbled upon something that may have something in there he/she could use as a weapon. Thanks for replies and suggestions as to what you do in these cases.

Share this post


Link to post

sorry wrong topic, it's late...

 

It's times like this I wish there was a delete button. :huh:

Edited by Milbank

Share this post


Link to post

We have a "what we do for fun" section on our company web site. I will be setting up a new geocaching page on the site which will contain the code.

 

So.... South Africa will be represented 'ethically' in the next couple of weeks.

 

I'll post the web address once the work is completed.

 

Thanks to all who worked so hard to give birth to the code. A great effort!!!! :huh:

Share this post


Link to post

Until the new site is up I have created a page on the GEOSET web site and linked to in in our info section. I also added a popup link to it on the main page.

Share this post


Link to post
Until the new site is up I have created a page on the GEOSET web site and linked to in in our info section. I also added a popup link to it on the main page.

Thanks for sharing the Creed! Everything is set for the new site - we're just tweaking the HTML (we want it to look nice!). I'll post the link here in a few days, and let everyone who has replied that they've posted the Creed know when it's ready!

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for everyone's support and help in developing and distributing the Geocachers Creed (originally known as the Geocachers Code). As you know if you've been following the threads, the Creed went through some final refinements. The final version is now posted on a web site specifically created for the Creed and located at:

 

www.GeoCreed.info.

 

Many thanks to Renegade Knight for correctly arguing the need to have a website to host the "master" copy of the Creed, to Sputnik57 and CoyoteRed for their help in creating and tweaking the site's HTML, and to many other geocachers who provided help and suggestions on domain registration, licensing, etc (you know who you are!).

 

If you posted an earlier version the Creed on your website, we’d encourage you to update your site with the latest version so that the copies in circulation are consistent.

 

Please feel free to distribute the Creed in any form whatsoever (electronic, printed, etc) and to share the link to the geocreed site (and to copy the Geocacher's Creed button at the bottom of the GeoCreed page and use it as an image for such links, if you wish).

 

I'll leave this thread open for a little longer if anyone wants to share any thoughts with the larger community about the website or other ideas for distribution. If you have any questions or suggestions and want to contact those of us who've volunteered to be caretakers for the Creed, please use the email address shown at the bottom of the GeoCreed.info page.

 

Again, thanks for your support of the Creed so that everyone can enjoy geocaching, now and in the future!

Edited by Kai Team

Share this post


Link to post

Since there has been no activity here in over a week, I'm closing this thread.

 

I've opened a new thread to discuss applying the Creed. Please feel free to join that discussion!

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4

×