Firearms

[+Confucius' Cat]

The discomfort is the reason I have opted for a very small piece. (As others have posted while I was typing- KelTec- with the installed clip stuck in the waistband it looks like a knife- no one has spotted it yet- even in dress clothes with the shirt tucked in- it simply does not look threatening)

 

The aforementioned weapon is so light and unobtrusive that I actually forget it is there occasionally. (which is a good thing and a bad thing)

 

There is a signifigant trade off in effectiveness, but I consider the risk of actually needing it so small that the "anything is bettter than nothing" is justifiable. I'd rather have a small gun than a box of rocks and jingle bells if I encounter a dangerous animal- no matter what the "experts" say.

 

No matter what you carry there will always be potential situations where it isn't enough.

 

I am far more likely to have a small, comfortable, easily concealable piece actually on my person when I need it than a lunker that, while more effective, is much more likely to be left at home.

 

Effective or not, there are no guarantees.

 

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

Edited December 30, 2004 by ChurchCampDave

[dave5339]

I guess I’ve lurked long enough that I have to post a comment or two on this thread.

 

I carry when I Geocache when and where I am legally able to. My wife also carries while caching for that matter. For us, a firearm is just another tool, (one that requires great responsibility though).

 

I’ve been carrying since I’ve been legally able to. The reason why I carry is to defend myself, my family or the innocent should the need arise. I carry in most all situations where I am legally able to, I do this because I never know beforehand where a situation might occur. It might occur at the store, at Wal-Mart, or while we are wandering around suburbia Geocaching.

 

I find that by carrying I am more aware of my surroundings, the last thing I want to do is to get myself into a situation that will require the use of a firearm.

 

I am a firm believer in the force continuum that has been already posted, I carry pepper spray for the simple reason that should a problem ever arise I’d much rather use pepper spray on a person or animal than to have to use deadly force.

 

I am also a firm believer in conflict resolution and de-escalation, for most situations and altercations this is an effective method. Given a chance I’ll walk away from something every time rather than have something escalate to the point where a firearm is necessary. If a situation requires intervention, Texas requires that I use the MINIMUM force necessary to stop the attack.

 

Mudinyeri,

 

One of my closest encounters to needing to use deadly force occurred in Manhattan, KS. I was on Bluemont Hill, (N. Julliette Ave) one evening with a former girlfriend. We had about 25-30 want to be gang bangers wander out of the bushes and attempt to surround the car. In fear for my and my former girlfriend’s safety, I put the car in reverse and left without thought of anyone being behind us. Had we been stopped and pulled out of the vehicle, I do not want to think what could have happened.

 

ChurchCampDave,

 

I might suggest checking out different holsters/belt combinations. Please email me if you have further questions. I routinely carry a full size 1911 in 45. With the proper holster and belt it is very comfortable.

 

Unfortunately, the world is not an ideal place. There are bad people, (wolves) everywhere. All we can do, (other than hide behind walls and locked doors) is to be aware of them and ready to deal with them if necessary. For those who are willing to be a SheepDog and help protect the flock, Thank you.

 

Semper Fidelis

[+Renegade Knight]

...Texas requires that I use the MINIMUM force necessary to stop the attack....

I've always found these laws moronic.

 

I'm going to use CSI as an example. On more than one episode they have said "self defense ended with the first shot". Funny in that most classes teach you to shoot twice (or three times) and then assess the situation.

 

In the news I hear the concept of appropriate force which is supposed to mean 'play fair' when at war. Why? Our goal is to kick the other guys butt's so bad it ends the war.

 

The concept gets applied to self defense and I don't get it. I'm not the guy who's honed my street fighting skills survived a bunch of knife fights. I'm the guy working to pay the bills and raise a family. If someone breaks into my house, threatens me, doesn't respond to my asking them to leave when I have a gun, I'm not going to ponder if I should use the gun, or go find a stick to end the threat.

 

If the guy starts to head out the door and says "I'll be back, and I'm going to make you pay" he dadgum well better hope I believe him, because I know the value of a restraining order in this situation. If I do think he may come back, he is toast. And maybe I'll go to jail. That's life, but he didn't hurt my family.

 

In my town about 10 years ago there was a guy who would sneak into a home and rape young girls in their bedrooms while the rest of the family slept. Finally a father caught him and started to beat the living snot out of him. The police showed up, and took some extra time to interview the mom while the father was busy in the other room. That story isn't official, but it's the one I heard and for that I think the police here do understand the concept of right and wrong, beyond the letter of the law.

Edited December 30, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I would never, ever, question ones right to a personal belief.

Right. You just question the belief, not the right to it.

 

You know, Google is a wonderful thing. Why don't you go find some supporting evidence yourself instead of questioning the value of other folks' arguments here. You defense so far has been nothing but dismissive. Go find your own facts and figures that support your argument.

 

Oh, and have fun with that.

Exactly! I question the belief and am asking folks why they arrived at their particular belief and if they could direct me to any sites or links that support the belief. I also ask that the sites they provide are from some (at least partially) unbiased sites (NRA or Anti-gun sites are probably trying to promote their view over others)

 

I'm also interested in personal experiences. I think I have been pretty forthcoming in my beliefs and respectful of others views. If you feel slighted in any way I first of all apologize and secondly promise you it was unintentional.

 

As for Google -- thanks for the update. What an amazing and unique idea you've given me! If I had found unbiased information in my searches I would have mentioned it here. The point of a forum is to share ideas and resources -- not personally attack anyone that doesn't share your opinion.

 

It seems you think that I am trying to promote a viewpoint or otherwise trying to get people to change theirs? I'm not really interested in that -- I just want to know how people have logically reached the decisions that they have made. It has become abundently clear to me that this is not a logical, but rather an emtional decision about safety, rights and the like.

 

My reason for NOT carrying a gun relate to the fact that I do not associate the risk to outweigh the reward -- in my area, in my opinion, in my experience. You may have a different environment, a different opinion and different experiences. I try to be open-minded to others situations and have really appreciated the pro-carry folks that have given me some interesting insight. To be honest, I don't particularly find your comments useful, but I do appreciate your taking the time to comment. Maybe I just don't get it? <-- I put this here so you could cut out one line from this entire post and answer with the word "yep." see.... I care.

 

Again, there really is very little new information coming to the discussion. I do appreciate the few that have shared personal experiences or provided links (even to pro-gun sites)

Edited December 31, 2004 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+Mule Ears]

Honestly, I don't think you're likely to find anyone who arrived at their opinion on this gut-level subject by a careful review of scholarly works. But if you have the time and curiosity, you can read the National Academy of Sciences study of the available stats and thinking on the subject. Here is a link to the full text. My guess is that you'll find no more comprehensive collection of facts to mull over.

 

Neither a collection of statistics nor somebody else's anecdote can settle this matter for any individual. It's purely an introspective matter. Public policy, sure; individual opinion, nope.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Now THAT's what I'm talking about! This looks like a very, very interesting book. Thank you.

[+Renegade Knight]

Honestly, I don't think you're likely to find anyone who arrived at their opinion on this gut-level subject by a careful review of scholarly works. But if you have the time and curiosity, you can read the National Academy of Sciences study of the available stats and thinking on the subject. Here is a link to the full text. My guess is that you'll find no more comprehensive collection of facts to mull over.

 

Neither a collection of statistics nor somebody else's anecdote can settle this matter for any individual. It's purely an introspective matter. Public policy, sure; individual opinion, nope.

Interesting.

 

It doesn't seem to cover the deeper issues though. Take the young people that it mentions. Odd are those shootings are mostly gang related. Banning guns, or making them available doesn't change why gangs exist, and why they are doing violent things to begin with. Tweaking with gun availablity can change the tools they use for the job, or make the tools harder to obtain which shows up in a higher back market price.

[SFABobby03]

I would never, ever, question ones right to a personal belief.

Right. You just question the belief, not the right to it.

 

You know, Google is a wonderful thing. Why don't you go find some supporting evidence yourself instead of questioning the value of other folks' arguments here. You defense so far has been nothing but dismissive. Go find your own facts and figures that support your argument.

 

Oh, and have fun with that.

Exactly! I question the belief and am asking folks why they arrived at their particular belief and if they could direct me to any sites or links that support the belief. I also ask that the sites they provide are from some (at least partially) unbiased sites (NRA or Anti-gun sites are probably trying to promote their view over others)

 

I'm also interested in personal experiences. I think I have been pretty forthcoming in my beliefs and respectful of others views. If you feel slighted in any way I first of all apologize and secondly promise you it was unintentional.

 

As for Google -- thanks for the update. What an amazing and unique idea you've given me! If I had found unbiased information in my searches I would have mentioned it here. The point of a forum is to share ideas and resources -- not personally attack anyone that doesn't share your opinion.

 

It seems you think that I am trying to promote a viewpoint or otherwise trying to get people to change theirs? I'm not really interested in that -- I just want to know how people have logically reached the decisions that they have made. It has become abundently clear to me that this is not a logical, but rather an emtional decision about safety, rights and the like.

 

My reason for NOT carrying a gun relate to the fact that I do not associate the risk to outweigh the reward -- in my area, in my opinion, in my experience. You may have a different environment, a different opinion and different experiences. I try to be open-minded to others situations and have really appreciated the pro-carry folks that have given me some interesting insight. To be honest, I don't particularly find your comments useful, but I do appreciate your taking the time to comment. Maybe I just don't get it? <-- I put this here so you could cut out one line from this entire post and answer with the word "yep." see.... I care.

 

Again, there really is very little new information coming to the discussion. I do appreciate the few that have shared personal experiences or provided links (even to pro-gun sites)

Hey, you never answered me, what would you consider a "unbiased" and reliable source on this subject.

[CoyoteRed]

...I don't particularly find your comments useful...

Nor do I yours. (Whoops, wrong one liner.)

 

I suppose if you really wanted what you claim to want you wouldn't be asking it in a geocaching forum, now would you? You just come in with a big ladle--thinly veiled as "personal research"--to stir the pot and have fun at others' expense. I don't believe for one second you are truly concerned and interested. I doubt many others do either. There have been a few more patient than I that have tried to educate you, but there is no changing your mind. The reason I give one liners is because that's all your post deserves.

 

Good day.

[SFABobby03]

I just wish my question would get answered by someone and quit being ignored!

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I consider an unbiased source to be one in which the research is presented as the result of collecting statistical information without secondary agenda. For example, a source that simply states the facts and allows others to make conclusions. Not present conclusions in support of EITHER side of a debate (pro or con).

 

Quick edit:

 

Research that presents facts allowing readers to draw own conclusions -- UNBIASED

Reaserch that promotes a viewpoint which it encourages others to follow -- BIASED

 

It's been stated here that the beast don't exist -- I accept that.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

...I don't particularly find your comments useful...

Nor do I yours. (Whoops, wrong one liner.)

 

I suppose if you really wanted what you claim to want you wouldn't be asking it in a geocaching forum, now would you? You just come in with a big ladle--thinly veiled as "personal research"--to stir the pot and have fun at others' expense. I don't believe for one second you are truly concerned and interested. I doubt many others do either. There have been a few more patient than I that have tried to educate you, but there is no changing your mind. The reason I give one liners is because that's all your post deserves.

 

Good day.

I'm sorry. Could you please take the time to read my posts before making false comments about what I am/am not promoting? Could you also read the entire thread before you suggest that people have provided me with the facts? I'm not "having fun at others expense". You are simply offended that I hold a view opposite to your own when it comes to carrying a gun caching and have decided to take it as an attack -- which it is not. Not all questions are attacks.

 

I have never, in a single post, claimed that you or anyone else should not carry a gun. I am posting my interest here because I like to know not only WHAT others think, but WHY they think the way they do - especially when it comes to things such as safety and weapons. If that bothers you -- too bad. That's why forums exist and are the free exchange of ideas. I like to question people that have different views than my own in order to better understand ideas. I'm open-minded enough that if I feel proper evidence is forthcoming I may even change my views in light of this evidence. Any evidence provided must pass the filter of logical analysis -- a good book on Informal Logic could help you understand what I mean. These are sometimes titled "How to Think" or "Logical Self-Defense".

 

My request was simple. I am looking for information on the benefits of carrying a gun while caching (or being outdoors). I am suspect of information on the topic provided by pro-gun groups and I am ALSO suspect of information on the topic provided by anti-gun groups. My goal was to find sources that were the result of scientific study, not personal agendas -- so I asked here. Your responce was "use Google". Thanks, but I chose to use a forum and see what and why others thought the way they did. Telling me to go away won't work. You can ignore me if you want, but I have just as much right to be here as you do.

 

You have decided that I am attacking a persons belief to carry and defending mine not to (even though I have never suggested anyone adopt my belief or drop theirs.) You even suggested I was attacking a countries gun policies and people! You are being defensive when there is no battle being fought.

 

You have never provided me with any relavent information on the subject at hand -- others have and I thank them. In fact, you've been nothing short of insulting and I'm surprized your comments are tolerated by the admins.

 

I do respect you as an individual -- because I think it's important to respect one another. I have difficulty respecting your personal attacks that are based in a fictious thought. You seem to think that I am promoting some sort of anti-gun agenda (where? I make my own decisions and leave your own decisions to you. In which of my posts have I ever told someone else not to carry?)

 

This topic all began when the question was asked "do you carry while caching?" I had the audacity to ask why and ask for logical support -- if that offends you I feel very sorry. There will always be people that disagree with you in life - why don't you provide them with actual information rather than attack them? (do you quote any credible sources in any of your posts here? Do you even provide any sources? -- except for you Google suggestion -- thanks for that)

 

This topic has now completely degraded to the point where no new information seems forthcoming on the topic at hand. I thank those that actually took the time to explain their beliefs to me and provided some links to research. I count about 3 links that were especially useful. I have learnt some new and interesting things.

 

I'd also like to apologize to anyone that was offended by my curiosity or posts in response to those attacking my right to question. I won't stop being curious as to why people do what they do, but I also did not intend to make anyone feel I don't repect their rights to a contrary viewpoint to my own. If anyone thinks I was promoting an agenda -- I just have to say you are wrong. If anyone thinks that I don't like to carry a gun, don't like what guns can do, and am nervous about some people with guns -- you are correct. That's only my opinion though and I really respect yours -- even if I don't share it. If anyone thinks I am uninformed, then maybe you could let me know where to find information .... on second thought, skip it.....

[+TruFinds]

OK, enough lurking, my blood pressure is elevated enough! Let me give you a background of me & my experience with crime, guns and fear. Here's my 2 cents, but just don't start flames over it - I just need to vent after reading everything that I have.

 

First, I live around a rather high crime region, Youngstown Ohio (yes, the mob & gang center between cleveland & pitt). I went to college at Youngstown State Univeristy where cops were prominently patroling on campus for prevention. Take one step off campus & you risked your life. For a few years around the time of Rodney King, Y-town held a tie with DC as being the murder capital. Luckily to this day, I have not been assaulted or approached, but it could have happended & it still could happen. Yet I still don't care to carry, and I am a female.

 

Secondly, I am not afraid of guns, as I am into trap shooting & have enjoyed a nine week marksmanship course. I will admit that I am a good shot and that I enjoy guns, HOWEVER, has anyone ever really thought about & looked at the damage that these weapons produce? These are NOT toys to be carried around like a binky!!!

 

Now think about the rate of accidental death. Accidents do occur. The FIRST thing to bear in mind when even touching a weapon is that you respect it for what it is capable of doing. Given that fact, realize that you are increasing your risk of either accidental discharge or shooting an unintentional target for every minute that weapon is on your person.

 

It's psychological, folks. Apparently guns have become the adult binky.

 

Point is, sh*t happens. You wouldnt stay away from beaches now that a tsunami has hit coast, would you? Sh*t happens to the innocent victim of robbery & rape, but you don't become paraniod. We are only one in how many million people on this globe. Each incident I have read in this forum is isolated. Just because it happens to one person or one beach, does not mean it will inevitably happen to all. The world is not a large game of cops & robbers!!! That is why a shiny badge is issued to a select few - and they get paid to do it! It is so much easier to point a barrel at someone and shoo them with fear rather than using common sense to neutralize the situation - or to avoid the situation altogether. You have to wonder what percent of CC permit holders are just looking for that fight. Unless you are looking for trouble or looking for trouble to find you or you are just dam paranoid, leave personal protection weapons out of it & out of the sport of geocaching.

 

thanks for letting me vent.

 

EOL

[CoyoteRed]

LFD,

 

I think you're just ticked that someone outed you for being just under the troll alarm. Or maybe you're ticked that I shot your "deaths PER CAPITA" arugment out of the water before it even got started. Then you had to claim it's simply an innocent query.

 

Yeah, right, that was just after you said "I'm phobic about people with guns." Earlier you had said, "Personally, I'm anti-gun to the Nth degree." and "Gun culture wierds me out." No, no agenda here at all.

 

I suspect you're trying to tick us all off so this thread would get shut down. I ain't taking the bait.

 

You can act all insulted however much you want, we all know better.

 

You have an agenda and if you had any supporting facts for your postion you'd be throwing it in our faces. Odd that there is none.

 

Many folks here have said time and again, carrying is a personal choice. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if it's justified or not, as long as one feels they need or want to carry while complying with the law, that's enough for me.

Edited December 31, 2004 by CoyoteRed

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I'm okay with what you are saying. I'm on the same side of that viewpoint - I think guns are really very useless things.... in MY life.

 

That said, in my posts I was trying to find the logical core surrounding the decision to carry or not (either caching or outdoors). While I emotionally and "gut-intinct" agree with you, I have not been able to find good sources to support either argument (carry, no-carry) from a logical, scientific standpoint. There have been several people that have constructed viewpoints based on hypothetical possibilites, but have not quantified the probablility of those possibilities. For example, "If I was in the woods and a bad guy attacked me, I'd want a gun!" -- I suspect that the probability of this happening is so low as to be almost nil. I do not have information on the accidental deaths caused by guns in the woods which I can draw comparisons to (it was suggested I go away and use Google though!). There was an interesting post about the women attacked in Yosemite which I found interesting and others have given some good, rational opinions and links.

 

I think in your post you provide an example of being in a statistically more dangerous area and not having had the personal need for a gun - because this is personal experience, expect to be subjected to contrary personal evidence. My suspicion is that the first responders will give one-off examples of people that "would have lived .... if only they had a gun!".

 

As you can probably tell from some of the posts, there are some emotions starting to fly around here (me too) and I'm actually returning from trying to learn to lurking (unless I get personally attacked or mis-quoted again!). Your post is sure to get some intelligent, respectful responses.

 

Good Luck!

-- post quick! I think this forum is so far Off-Topic that it will be locked very, very soon!

[Smaug1]

Carrying is illegal in my state too, (IL) but sometimes I am tempted.

 

There is a nature preserve near my subdivision, and a coyote has been spotted whom my wife has seen while walking the dog. She and another lady both said that his head was mid-chest level. (She's 5'6" tall)

 

He must be hungry this time of year, and I would be easy prey. A Glock 34 would make me a bit more difficult.

 

The problem is that there are problems with illegal hunting back there, so if I were approached by an LEO, he would have to assume I was guilt of that AND carrying and I would be in deep !@$.

 

For now, I will just carry my Buck hunting knife with 6" blade. I'd like to think that if a coyote attacked me, I could hold my own with a big knife like that.

 

Jeremy

[CoyoteRed]

I think this forum is so far Off-Topic that it will be locked very, very soon!

You're the one who keeps taking it there.

 

There are a few examples in the forums where folks have used a firearms to various degrees while caching. The ones I can think of off the top of my head is one guy who shot a rattlesnake he found himself stradling and another where a bunch of dudes where coming towards him making noises that caused him to fear for his safety, he displayed the weapon and the threat ended. There might be more. I'll let you do the search if you're interested.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

LFD,

 

I think you're just ticked that someone outed you for being just under the troll alarm.  Or maybe you're ticked that I shot your "deaths PER CAPITA" arugment out of the water before it even got started.  Then you had to claim it's simply an innocent query. 

 

Yeah, right, that was just after you said "I'm phobic about people with guns."  Earlier you had said, "Personally, I'm anti-gun to the Nth degree." and "Gun culture wierds me out."  No, no agenda here at all.

 

I suspect you're trying to tick us all off so this thread would get shut down.  I ain't taking the bait.

 

You can act all insulted however much you want, we all know better.

 

You have an agenda and if you had any supporting facts for your postion you'd be throwing it in our faces.  Odd that there is none.

 

Many folks here have said time and again, carrying is a personal choice.  Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if it's justified or not, as long as one feels they need or want to carry while complying with the law, that's enough for me.

See -- you ARE clever. You figured out that I don't like guns. Was this when I TOLD you that?

 

I never made a secret about my own BIAS. The difference between us is that I repsect others views. listen to them. I don't accuse them of pushing their views down my throat or having agendas. I also have no agenda -- this is a geocaching forum where we share ideas about how to enjoy the hobby -- I'm here to learn why people do what they do in relation to geocaching and, to some extent, outdoor adventuring.

 

You are making false accusations, Calling me a Troll? Saying I am trying to tick people off? Saying I am attacking the US people and policies?

 

You didn't even ANSWER my questions -- how could you "blow me out of the water" -- and if your goal was to "blow me out of the water" then you are attacking me and my beliefs -- not very respectful Mr.Coyote. If your intent was to inform and share ideas, then I thank you. (as I have done with many others)

 

You feel you are being attacked when you are not. You feel I am promoting an agenda when I am not. Sorry of by telling you that I don't like guns, gun culture, and the damage guns cause that you feel the way you do. I'm honest about my bias' and seek to ensure I understand the topic logically to prevent myself from holding false bias. You have done nothing to convince me my bias' are incorrect -- others have provided me excellent resources to think about. Not you.

 

By-the-way, you will see that I am also one of the people that has said carrying is a personal choice. One that I personally don't share, but a personal choice none the less.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[CoyoteRed]

...others have provided me excellent resources to think about. Not you.

And yet your bias hasn't changed.

[CoyoteRed]

...and if your goal was to "blow me out of the water" then you are attacking me and my beliefs -- not very respectful Mr.Coyote.

It could be your logic is at fault for giving your bias.

 

I didn't attack you. I attacked your argument. There is a major difference. Unless, of course, you are your argument.

 

Heck, I'm even unapologetic that I have no respect for invalid arguments.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

That's right. I don't change my beliefs without thought. I need to research, read and understand the data. It's called rational inquiry.

 

You know, you and I will never agree. You think I have an agenda to change peoples views about guns. You don't believe me when I say I am only concerned about my own beliefs and do not care if others share them or not (many in my own family are very pro-gun and hunt)

 

Hopefully you know that while I disagree with you -- it is not an attack on your person or character. Some of your actions I have taken as insulting and maybe that isn't fair on my part. I admit I get "ticked" when I feel I am beig falsely accused.

 

I'm going to go ahead and let people read what I have already posted, let them make their own decisions on whether my questions were part of an "agenda" or part of a curious mind trying to understand others. Don't take it personally that I disagree with your beliefs -- I'm okay that you don't share mine.

[+magking1971]

I was raised around guns and was tought to use them at a young age, now as a adult I have a few of my own.

I like to target shoot, but don't hunt I could very easy because I have deer in the yard every day but find going to the store for meat much better, no I am not anti hunting I just don't see the need.

I am 33 and have never had a reason to carry before in my life (or really wanted to) but this spring something happend while geocaching to change my mind, me and my daughter were caching and we were being stalked by a cougar, I noticed this as when we were back tracking to the car I got to see the prints over ours.

So I got a CCP to carry ONLY when she is with me and when we are in the woods.

I work in a rather unsavory part of town at some odd hours and there is strange people hanging around at any givin time, do I carry there? no because they leave us alone and there is much better ways to avoid an incounter in the first place.

Be aware of your sourroundings and dont present yourself as a target.

Happy caching!!

[+leatherman]

I was raised around guns and was tought to use them at a young age, now as a adult I have a few of my own.

I like to target shoot, but don't hunt I could very easy because I have deer in the yard every day but find going to the store for meat much better, no I am not anti hunting I just don't see the need.

I am 33 and have never had a reason to carry before in my life (or really wanted to) but this spring something happend while geocaching to change my mind, me and my daughter were caching and we were being stalked by a cougar, I noticed this as when we were back tracking to the car I got to see the prints over ours.

So I got a CCP to carry ONLY when she is with me and when we are in the woods.

I work in a rather unsavory part of town at some odd hours and there is strange people hanging around at any givin time, do I carry there? no because they leave us alone and there is much better ways to avoid an incounter in the first place.

Be aware of your sourroundings and dont present yourself as a target.

Happy caching!!

Very good post. Thank you for sharing your on topic experience.

[+Mule Ears]

Below is a concrete example of self-defense from an area that I've hiked and biked a half-dozen times. I hesitated to post it earlier because I didn't want to stir up the animal-rights hornet's nest.

 

Last spring, a mountain biker riding in Gardner Canyon (location or trailhead for ~10 caches) realized he was being stalked by a mountain lion. He dismounted and fired a couple of shots from a .38 to scare it off, but the cat wasn't deterred. He finally shot and wounded the animal, which then withdrew. Link: Arizona Daily Star. In my googling to find the news citation, I also found a list of cougar attacks in the US and Canada. In a fair number of incidents the victims (somewhat) successfully defended themselves with guns, knives, sticks, and a bicycle pump. In hand-to-paw combat, the cougar generally came out better than the human (listings in red are human deaths).

 

No stats on how effective a "binky" was in fending off attacking mountain lions, or whether those who defended themselves were offered treatment for their paranoia and insecurity. If so, I suspect they declined

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Mountain Lions (Cougars) as well as Polar Bears are two animals in North America that I know will intentionally stalk and hunt humans for food. Polar Bears most of the time, Cougars occasionally. I haven't done much outdoors in exceptionally remote areas of the world (a little in Germany where wild boar are apparently out there?)

 

There is also some cases of Grizzly, Kodiac and the rare Black Bear attack which were unprovoked -- and hard to use avoidence techniques on. In these areas it may be wise to carry some sort of defense tool. I have yet to cache the Polar Regions!, but Cougars are in many places I ride and cache. Has anyone here used Pepper Spray? What are peoples thoughts on this?

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

...and if your goal was to "blow me out of the water" then you are attacking me and my beliefs -- not very respectful Mr.Coyote.

It could be your logic is at fault for giving your bias.

 

I didn't attack you. I attacked your argument. There is a major difference. Unless, of course, you are your argument.

 

Heck, I'm even unapologetic that I have no respect for invalid arguments.

How can you attack my argument. It doesn't exist. I'm looking for INFORMATION not a fight.

[SFABobby03]

Mountain Lions (Cougars) as well as Polar Bears are two animals in North America that I know will intentionally stalk and hunt humans for food. Polar Bears most of the time, Cougars occasionally. I haven't done much outdoors in exceptionally remote areas of the world (a little in Germany where wild boar are apparently out there?)

 

There is also some cases of Grizzly, Kodiac and the rare Black Bear attack which were unprovoked -- and hard to use avoidence techniques on. In these areas it may be wise to carry some sort of defense tool. I have yet to cache the Polar Regions!, but Cougars are in many places I ride and cache. Has anyone here used Pepper Spray? What are peoples thoughts on this?

Ummm, I would not want to go up against a bear or a cougar with pepper spray lol. You have yet to give me an unbiased source on the gun issue. I am thinking that the only one you will see as unbiased is one that supports your point of view. That is obvious. It's nice to see a man with an agenda on a mission as you obviously are! Have a good one. I'm done with this as its starting to turn into a pointless argument about the same thing over and over. You have a right to not carry a gun just as I have a right to carry a gun which I will. You won't take that right from me, ever. It doesn't really matter what your views on guns are. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion! It's a great Country.

[SFABobby03]

...and if your goal was to "blow me out of the water" then you are attacking me and my beliefs -- not very respectful Mr.Coyote.

It could be your logic is at fault for giving your bias.

 

I didn't attack you. I attacked your argument. There is a major difference. Unless, of course, you are your argument.

 

Heck, I'm even unapologetic that I have no respect for invalid arguments.

How can you attack my argument. It doesn't exist. I'm looking for INFORMATION not a fight.

Information has been given to you over and over and since it doesn't fit with your views you discount it as biased and unreliable.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

untrue -- provide an example. I have thanked those that have given me good information.

Even if that information does not support my current view.

Edited December 31, 2004 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+clownsdd]

Kel-Tec always gets a bad rap, the fact is they are cheap guns, and the fit and finish is sub-par. However, I own four of them including to P-11's, a .32 and the new 3AT.

 

The 9mm kt makes an excellent carry weapon with the right ammo. I alternate b/t kt 9, glock 26 .40 & baby eagle .45 depending upon the weather and what I am wearing.

 

Dino

[RenoRat]

An interesting exchange, even if a little more oriented toward personal comments than I might prefer. I think it's good that the discussion, even as heated as it is, is allowed to continue. Not that anyone involved will change their beliefs, lol.

 

But a few comments to TruFinds seem in order...

 

I do applaud your courage in living so close to such dangerous conditions and yet not feeling you need any additional help in protecting yourself. However, I think you have a misconception or two, and altho I'm quite certain nothing I say will alter them I'll say it anyway.

 

I HAVE seen what a weapon can do to the human body. I've also seen what muggers/attackers/crazies can do to a human body. And I agree...firearms aren't toys. If they were I wouldn't carry one. And anyone who is reasonably adult about carrying a firearm will get training in it's handling and use. It's the immature, untrained gun handler who is mostly responsible for 'accidental discharges or shooting an unintentional target.' I say "Mostly", because even a LEO can accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, and not every 'accidental' shooting by non-leo's is really accidental. But anyone who looks at a firearm and sees a 'binky' in any way shape or form is correct in their [her] decision to not carry one.

 

Personally, I think it isn't very paranoid to consider finding an effective method of self-defense against robbery & rape, if the possibility of such is high in your area. I truthfully hope it never happens to you -honestly I do - but if you were to become a victim of robbery & rape, would you reconsider your decision to not carry? And that's a serious question, not a "Just wait until YOU get attacked!" kind of thing. I'm really curious.

 

You said: "Unless you are looking for trouble or looking for trouble to find you or just dam paranoid, leave personal protection weapons out of it & out of the sport of geocaching."

First..., I've had my concealed carry permit for about six years, so if I was looking for trouble doesn't it seem likely I could have found some by now? 'Looking for trouble to find me'? You bet! You keep your eyes moving and your mind alert, even if you're out in the middle of a field. Hopefully, you'll see trouble before it sees you, and you can extricate yourself before it even developes or prepare yourself to defend yourself if you can't.

I realize, if I WAS paranoid I'd probably be the last to recognize the fact, but as I understand the definition I don't believe I am.

Besides...LEO's [despite what the motto on their door says] aren't there to protect you. They're there to catch the perp AFTER he's broken the law against you in whatever way he prefers. Don't believe it? Ask any spouse who's called for protection against a husband who has threatened them... the desk sargeant will something like "Ma'am, if he hasn't broken the law we can't do anything."

Thank you, but I prefer my protection BEFORE I'm victimized, not after.

 

Carrying or not carrying a firearm while caching in no way detracts from the 'sport'. I suspect if you've been on many hunts you've been close to a concealed carry weapon and didn't even know it. Did it ruin the sport for you? The odds are, if you live in a Permitted area you're probably within shouting distance of a firearm during most of your normal day, assuming you're in public. And this should please you, since not every 'situation' can be walked away from or neutralized peacefully, and the next situation might be your own.

 

Remember some years ago in NYC when a woman ran screaming down the middle of the street, asking for someone, anyone to help her because she was literally being killed? No one did and she was knifed to death right there, with dozens of people watching from behind their closed blinds. When asked why no one helped her, the answers fell mainly into two groups: The ones w/o firearms said they were afraid to become involved because they might be next, and the ones with firearms [that admitted it] said they knew they would be in great trouble if they fired their weapons, even to save the womans life. Thank TPTB if you don't live under such conditions.

 

Anyway, I do hope your good luck continues to hold!

 

Oh... Smaug1..? Have you ever heard an actual report of a coyote attacking a healthy human being? We have coyotes here in Nevada but they're smart enough to stay far, far away from humans, except when they raid garbage cans at night. Perhaps if it was a feral dog...? They're vicious and have little fear of humans, and I don't think I've ever heard of a coyote growing that big, altho I suppose it's possible...

I'm not sure what might be hunted with a pistol that a LEO would think you were after...?

 

Rat

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Some of the experiences folks have had with wild animals are interesting. I'm thinking of getting some pepper spray to carry in remote hikes. I'm not sure if I can carry this in urban caching, but I'll carry a stick at least. (many times I have my bike lock with me too -- which would hurt someone if I hit them with it).

 

I've only ever heard of one coyote attack (well.... ) It involved a sick coyote in Banff Park that bit a person at a campground (I think sometime around 1988/89)-- pets beware!, coyotes here eat them on a regular basis.

 

Cougars seem to target children from what I've heard/seen -- but there's a case of a cougar attacking a lady on a horse and killing her. (in her case, there was little that would have helped, the cougar lept from hiding and there would have been no time to defend herself).

 

My sister teaches in a remote area on the West Coast of Canada and took her class to a lake for a picnic. She went to the campground washroom and saw a cougar on top of one of the buildings -- she quietly and carefully rounded the children up and got out of there.

 

A friend of the family was out hunting, heard a noise behind him while sitting on a rock, saw a couger, spun around and shot it with his gun. In that case having the gun probably saved him. (would pepper spray have? -- I don't know). It now lives in his living room.

 

Interestingly, there was a recent Wolf attack on the West Coast of Canada -- which I "think" is the first attack on a human by a Wolf ever. I do not know the outcome or if weapons were involved.

 

Recently, here in Alberta, a lady was attacked (and I believe killed) by a bear while hunting. She had a gun which didn't help her. Bear attacks are by far the most common attacks that I have heard about. I once mountain-biked down a hill to see a baby bear cross the path directly in front of me! Needless to say, it was the fastest uphill turnaround I have ever done! (never saw momma -- never wanted to).

 

My worst bear incident was when I was being really stupid -- listening to a walkman (remember those?) in the woods. I turned to my side and there was the rear-end of a very large bear about 6-8 feet away! It turned, looked at me and kept walking. My heart was later removed from my throat and I changed my pants. I didn't have a gun or pepper spray -- so I could have been in trouble there.

[+TruFinds]

Let me clarify "binky" - the whole notion of carrying has become a safety net, a security blanket, that merely reinforces the notion that we can take the law into our own hands. This gives a psychological impression that when carrying, it is ok to "use" almost liberally (use = mostly just for show or possibly actual firing). Are we really that much better than gang members? While you may be correct in saying that police only catch not prevent perps, I feel that CCPs simply allows more weapons on the street. I understand that CCPs should be well trained, but in the "heat of the action" is it possible to become trigger happy.

 

Use common sense, is what i am trying to point out. most caches around us are either in parks (family friendly), or near other good civilization. think about it, though - is it really necessary to bring a gun there? However, if you go into the woods expecting to encounter big game (black bear, cyotes, etc,) think about going when the game is in season, then take that high-powered rifle with you and the gps & the cache sheet (or a pda if you are lucky enough).

 

I do realize that there will be situations that cannot be neutralized - give up that wallet, give up that car. IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!! USE YOUR BRAIN, NOT BULLETS!!!

 

This sport is suspicious looking enough. we are already prone to police investigation by us poking around with a crazy device in odd locations, searching for something the internet told us to. the last thing we need is to add a weapon to all this. sorry. You should know i am NOT anti-gun (they are absolutely fascinating for both collectiong historical pieces and on the range), I am, however pro-common sense! use it when you really need it - or better yet, keep it under lock & key at home & let the big guy upstairs be your co-pilot, not your glock.

 

hope this post hasn't offended anyone in any way. to each their own opinion, i'm not going to preach anymore, and i hope no one forces any opinions. please keep this forum flame free. take care. cache safe.

[uperdooper]

Are we really that much better than gang members?

 

yes, we are that much better than gang members.

 

since CCW permits have been permitted in my state, there are no hordes of gun toting, legally carrying people running around shooting people. there are groups of gang members running around shooting people.

 

i have legally carried for 2 years and you or anyone else would never know that i have a loaded gun on me.

 

hope this post hasn't offended anyone in any way.

 

you have offended me. i am offended that you would think that legal guns are contributing to crime. i am offended that you would acquaint a firearm with a binky. legal carriers know they aren't binkys. sheesh! legal carry is here to stay. get used to it.

 

as for "the big guy", i am my pilot and co-pilot. no one else.

[+Mule Ears]

TruFinds, you're preaching to the choir. The folks who have participated in this forum discussion seem quite level-headed and many are very well trained as law-enforcement or military types. They're unlikely to use inappropriate force in a situation that can be handled in some other way. The folks for whom your cautionary words are appropriate cannot be persuaded. They have deep emotional problems that are too deep-seated to be reached with words.

 

I think there's reason for optimism on this front: Remember Bernard Goetz, the NYC "Subway Vigilante" who shot and killed four unarmed youths who were trying to rob him? That was 1984, and if you were old enough to be aware of the news at the time, you still remember the case. By Goetz's own description of events, he was the poster boy for your position; he was looking for a confrontation because of past intimidation at the hands of thugs on the subway and reacted with excessive force when the chance presented itself.

 

National press coverage was wall-to-wall for months. Like the Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson cases combined and carried to the second power.

 

Point of the story is that I cannot think of a single story since that time involving firearm self-defense gone wrong. That's not to say that no such incident has occurred, but if it were common we would be hearing a lot more about it.

[+clearpath]

as for "the big guy", i am my pilot and co-pilot. no one else.

does the big doop know you are talking about him like that?

[uperdooper]

as for "the big guy", i am my pilot and co-pilot.  no one else.

does the big doop know you are talking about him like that?

the big doop has no idea what i say here.

[SFABobby03]

Let me clarify "binky" - the whole notion of carrying has become a safety net, a security blanket, that merely reinforces the notion that we can take the law into our own hands. This gives a psychological impression that when carrying, it is ok to "use" almost liberally (use = mostly just for show or possibly actual firing). Are we really that much better than gang members? While you may be correct in saying that police only catch not prevent perps, I feel that CCPs simply allows more weapons on the street. I understand that CCPs should be well trained, but in the "heat of the action" is it possible to become trigger happy.

 

Use common sense, is what i am trying to point out. most caches around us are either in parks (family friendly), or near other good civilization. think about it, though - is it really necessary to bring a gun there? However, if you go into the woods expecting to encounter big game (black bear, cyotes, etc,) think about going when the game is in season, then take that high-powered rifle with you and the gps & the cache sheet (or a pda if you are lucky enough).

 

I do realize that there will be situations that cannot be neutralized - give up that wallet, give up that car. IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!! USE YOUR BRAIN, NOT BULLETS!!!

 

This sport is suspicious looking enough. we are already prone to police investigation by us poking around with a crazy device in odd locations, searching for something the internet told us to. the last thing we need is to add a weapon to all this. sorry. You should know i am NOT anti-gun (they are absolutely fascinating for both collectiong historical pieces and on the range), I am, however pro-common sense! use it when you really need it - or better yet, keep it under lock & key at home & let the big guy upstairs be your co-pilot, not your glock.

 

hope this post hasn't offended anyone in any way. to each their own opinion, i'm not going to preach anymore, and i hope no one forces any opinions. please keep this forum flame free. take care. cache safe.

FIrst off, carrying is a safety net. It tells me that if I am presented with a dangerous situation that I cannot get out of alive or without serious bodily injury to myself or someone else that I can pull out my gun and use deadly force to control the situation to save my life or the life of another. So yes, it is a saftey net for 99.9% of the time that the police are not there to protect me.

 

Your point about CCP's only allows more weapons on the streets I say that it makes sense to level the playing field with the criminals. If you take the CCP's away all you have is armed criminals on the streets to prey upon innocent people. .

 

You say use common sense and that it isn't necessary to carry a weapon some places that you consider safe. I might bring up Luby's restraunt in Kileen Texas some years ago where people were eating at a safe restraunt and some lunatic came in and shot a bunch of people. I might also point out that bad things happen in seemingly safe places all the time. There are no perfectly safe areas out there.

 

Some situations cannot be neautralized and in most cases giving up the wallet makes more sense than a gun fight. However, not all criminals just want your wallet, lots of people are murdered all the time by people who are robbing them.

 

I respect your opinion about not needing to bring a gun into an already suspicios sport, I do however reject your opinion and will not follow it under any circumstances.

 

People who carry concealed weapons in general do not contribute to the crime problem. In my opinion they only help it. You are free to not carry and that is fine. I respect your right to not carry but I do demand that you respect my right to carry. I refuse to let myself be victim of a crime just because I cannot protect myself. If you want to take chances, that is fine, do whatever you want. I am pro freedom and you should be able to do what you want, including carrying or not carrying a weapon.

[Jeremy]

There are thousands of sites on the Internet where you can continue your argument over the reasons why people own guns. This is not the place. At this point the topic has become a place for useless squabbling. You'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Closing this thread.