Jump to content

Firearms


barnabasbenn

Recommended Posts

OK, I'll try to avoid it in the future. But I don't think you're going to win any popularity contests with the various law-enforcement types who're following this thread.  :lol:

Sssshh ... don't tell my sister. She is a detective for the Overland Park, KS police department. :angry: Also, don't tell the US military men and women all of whom I have the greatest respect ... :lol:

Link to comment

This is why this topic is always doomed.

 

Everyone feels strongly, logical arguments are not considered, rhetoric is thrown everywhere, and eventually someone puts an eye out.

 

Guns are tools, just like knives, gpsr's, walking sticks, etc. Some people like tools, some people dislike tools. All tools have inherent dangers, that is why they must be used responsibly. Some people use certain tools for geocaching, others do not. I use a walking stick, RobertLipe does not, we have a fundamental disagreement on the subject, I see his point, he sees mine, but we disagree. That is OK, I do not attack his decision, he does not attack mine. The gun discussion should be as polite as the walking stick discussion. They are both tools. A tool can be used properly or misused and no amount of rhetoric is ever going to change that.

 

A wise man once pointed out that nearly anything you can imagine can show up as exhibit A at a murder trial. You can kill someone with almost anything, including the keyboard you are typing with, if you put your mind to it. As a CCW holder carry a firearm anywhere I legally can, it is a tool I choose to have in my personal toolbox, in case I have a need for it, same thing for my cell phone, knife and multi-tool. I do not care whether anyone else chooses to carry or not, I will not try to force my opinions on you if you do not care for firearms, please extend the same courtesy to me.

Link to comment
A wise man once pointed out that nearly anything you can imagine can show up as exhibit A at a murder trial. 

Please don't use the words 'wise, man and murder' in the same sentence ... :angry:

Okay, okay, I'll stop now ... just trying to lighten up the discussion. I agree with you... people get too worked up over this topic. I have been around guns my whole life and own many. It really doesn't matter what I think ... the only thing that matters is that this thread continues to stay on topic ... So, back to your regularly scheduled program. :lol:

Link to comment

Yep I grew up around guns too and feel very comfortable around them. What I do not feel comfortable around are grizzlies while I am unarmed. Yes, there is a protocal to follow but there are still those bears who refuse to follow the rules.

 

HB 102, took effect June 11, 2003 and changes Alaska Statute 11.61.220 to allow anyone who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit if 21 years of age or older. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may still obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states or want to continue to be exempt from background checks when purchasing firearms. The effective date of this law change is September 9th, 2003. For more information contact the Permits & Licensing Unit at

Link to comment

As a veteran law enforcement officer (20 years) I have had the distinct displeasure of running into a convict after he was paroled from a 15 year sentence that I was partly responsible. Dirt bag remember exactly who I was. His last words to me before has was lead out of the court room were "I am going to @$@$ing kill you when I get out". MInd you, this was in a grocery store in a very nice suburb.

Never mind that bad people are everywhere, just not in the "bad" parts of town. I carry when I cache, heck I carry just about 24/7 when ever I am out of my house. As for citizens, the Second Amendment says it all!!!

Link to comment
Never mind that bad people are everywhere, just not in the "bad" parts of town. I carry when I cache, heck I carry just about 24/7 when ever I am out of my house. As for citizens, the Second Amendment says it all!!!

Amen!

In my thirteen plus years at the Monroe Correctional Complex I have seen thousands of faces. 99% of them will and have gotten out. "I see convicts! I see them every where. They walk amongst us. Everyone thinks they are just like us." <_<

Link to comment

It's quite interesting to see the overwhelming support for guns in this thread. I'm wondering if it is:

 

- a US thing

- a outdoors-person thing

- other

 

Personally, I'm anti-gun to the Nth degree. I find the number of gun deaths in the US to be absurd. That doesn't matter here, my answer to the question is "no, I don't carry a gun". I'm not interested in dicussing why I hold an anti-gun stance (either it falls on deaf ears, or I'm preaching to the choir). I'm not that interested in knowing why people are pro-gun. Why? It becomes an emotional debate devoid of factual exchange in most cases. Hopefully that's okay.

 

However, I am interested in something relavent to the initial question - especially from the US posters (and this is just curiousity here - no hidden agendas). How many people have ever had to actually use a gun in defense against either a human or an animal? (law enforcement and conservation officers aside) The reason I ask is that I do enjoy visiting the US (although I'm getting a little freaked out here) and was planning on caching in the Pacific Northwest sometime, but want to get some idea about how crazy this might be if I am unarmed.

 

Disclaimer: if anyone is offended by my anti-gun sentiments please feel free to print out a copy of this post and shoot it.

Link to comment
...want to get some idea about how crazy this might be if I am unarmed.

Don't worry about the crazies.

 

Think about this, the more time you spend in a situation where you might need to defend yourself, the more likely you will have to defend yourself. That's why LEO carry, because they put themselves in those situations many times a day. Normal folk might see that a couple times a year. The odds are against you needing protection.

 

OTOH, I've been in 5 vehicle accidents my whole life. I wear my seats. 3 of those times seats belts did me absolutely no good because I was rear ended at low speeds. Once, I rear ended another person, it was low speed but violent enough that went I braced for impact I tore the steering column from the dash. The seatbelt most likely saved me from injury.

 

The remaining time, though, a drunk driver came out of nowhere and forced me off the road. The truck spun 180° and did a complete roll, ripping off the roof. The Trooper didn't ask if I had been wearing my belt, he told me. The witnesses said they never expected for anyone to get out alive. I walked away with my bell rung and the marks left by the belt.

 

My point here is your are more likely to experience something negative the more you put yourself in a situation where you can experience something negative. I've spent orders of magnitude more time driving that I have putting myself in a situations where I might have to defend myself.

 

No, don't worry about the crazies. If anything, wear your seltbelt and worry about idiots who are less worried about driving than doing the half dozen other things occupying his mind.

 

Also, don't worry about it if you don't like guns. I sleep with someone who doesn't like guns.

Link to comment
How many people have ever had to actually use a gun in defense against either a human or an animal? (law enforcement and conservation officers aside)

Define "used".

If you mean fired, I can only think of one person I know (outside of LEOs) that has ever fired a gun in self defense. She's only an acquaintance and it was before I knew her so the details are a bit sketchy, but I believe it involved someone with a history of violence who had broken into her home (and violated an order of protection).

If you want to count the times the presence of a gun protected someone, I can think of a few situations. One involved several geocachers in an urban park. One of our party was an off-duty police officer, and I am convinced the fact he was carrying his gun prevented harm from coming to our party when we encountered some "less then friendly" people in a dark corner of the park.

Link to comment

FWIW, my shots fired in anger experience:

 

One evening in 1989 the following incident happened to me. I was employed as a private investigator in Atlanta working insurance fraud cases. My wife and I lived in an apartment complex across from the MARTA Brookhaven station a few miles north of the Buckhead district. This was not usually considered a bad part of town.

 

My wife and I had settled down early and planned to spend a quiet evening reading. At approximately 8:30, I heard what could be described as a blood-curdling scream of terror, a sound that is very distinct to those who have been unfortunate enough to hear one. Thinking something real bad was going down, I grabbed the closest weapon, a 12 gauge, 18.25-in. barrel, loaded with three in magnum #3 turkey loads. The screams were coming from the back of our building where each unit had a balcony. I peeked out of my door and saw that the porch was clear and then opened the door and proceeded outside on to my deck. My deck was elevated about six feet above the ground giving me a good view of the area behind the building. What I saw from about 25 yards was a black male struggling with a woman and beating her about the head and neck. The attacker also was holding a small object that looked like a knife or small pistol to the woman's head. The whole time he kept saying, "Give it up, give it to me!" I thought, "Holy @&*%$, she's being raped!"

 

Not wanting to lose sight of the victim, I opted not to exit my front door and go around the building. I raised the shotgun and ordered the BG to release the woman. He just turned his head and looked at me. I then told him once again to release her or I would kill him. This was all bluff on my part, being that I had the wrong gun and load for the situation. The assailant once again looked at me and continued to plummet the hapless victim. Knowing that I could not shoot the attacker, and not wanting to loose sight of the victim, my options were limited. I decided to point the scattergun toward the ground below my deck and discharge a round in a safe direction. When the 12 gauge went off, it sounded like a grenade went off in the small quadrangle behind the apartment buildings.

 

The BG looked up with eyes a wide as saucers and decided to vacate the area in a rapid fashion, i.e. elbows and a**hole. I told my wife, who had come downstairs by now, to call 911. I asked the woman if she could walk and she replied yes. I told her to come around to my front door and my wife would let her it while I covered her. My wife was put on hold to the Dekalb Co. PD. She was finally able to get the Atlanta PD and they passed on the info to the Co. PD, whose jurisdiction we were in. Somewhere in the translation the whole situation turned into, "SHOTS FIRED, POSSIBLE DOMESTIC." Units were now rolling. I got the victim inside and locked the doors. Knowing the police were on the way, I unloaded the 12 gauge and placed in on the couch with the action open.

 

About five minutes later we were startled by pounding on our door. My wife was attending the victim, who had some pretty bad bruising on her face and neck, so I opened the door. I was greeted by about half a dozen Beretta 9mms pointed at me. I was ordered to sit down and not move while statements were taken. When the officers learned that I was in fact the good-guy, they apologized. I told them that wasn't necessary. An ambulance came and took the woman to the hospital and I completed my statement. Before leaving the patrol Sargent said he wishes there were more folks like me who were willing to get involved. As he was walking out the door, he asked I was interested in selling the shotgun to him. My wife looked at me, then turned to the Sargent, smiled and said, "No thanks officer, I think we'll be keeping this one."

 

As for the crime itself, It was a strong-arm robbery, not a rape, the weapon, a black plastic comb.

Link to comment

Handguns can keep a situation from escalating at times (these statistics are not usually reported) - the gun is presented and not fired. I think the information in this thread is simply news for a lot of folks. There are huge numbers of citizens carrying, and because it is not visible, lots of folks just haven't been aware of it.

Link to comment
Handguns can keep a situation from escalating at times (these statistics are not usually reported) - the gun is presented and not fired.

Many years ago here in KC we had an incident where a male was following a pick-up truck loaded with six other males. While driving, somehow the two parties became engaged in verbal assault. Eventually, the pick-up stopped in the roadway in a very busy part of the city. The lone male exited his vehicle with a gun and proceded to confront the other six males. The guy with the gun was quickly surrounded by the other six and because the gun wielding male was unable to keep an eye on all six, he was struck in the back of the head with a baseball bat. It turned out to be a fatal blow. As I approached the scene of the crime, the lone male was laying in the gutter of the road being attended to by a good samaritan. The road was a fairly steep incline so all the blood from his head was streaming down the gutter into the sewer approx. 10 ft. away. The man lived for a few minutes but eventually died. The back of his head was mush and the good samaritan held his hand on the back of his head to keep his brains from ending up in the sewer as well ... the gun was not fired.

Link to comment
Handguns can keep a situation from escalating at times (these statistics are not usually reported) - the gun is presented and not fired.

Many years ago here in KC we had an incident where a male was following a pick-up truck loaded with six other males. While driving, somehow the two parties became engaged in verbal assault. Eventually, the pick-up stopped in the roadway in a very busy part of the city. The lone male exited his vehicle with a gun and proceded to confront the other six males. The guy with the gun was quickly surrounded by the other six and because the gun wielding male was unable to keep an eye on all six, he was struck in the back of the head with a baseball bat. It turned out to be a fatal blow. As I approached the scene of the crime, the lone male was laying in the gutter of the road being attended to by a good samaritan. The road was a fairly steep incline so all the blood from his head was streaming down the gutter into the sewer approx. 10 ft. away. The man lived for a few minutes but eventually died. The back of his head was mush and the good samaritan held his hand on the back of his head to keep his brains from ending up in the sewer as well ... the gun was not fired.

Sounds like a good situation for the guy with the gun to use deadly force. He had to obviously be in fear of death or at least serious bodily injury with 6 idiots with bats. I would have not put myself in that situation but I would think he would be justified using deadly force in that situation.

Link to comment

A quick comment -- I'm pretty impressed with the civility of this forum thus far. Ussually any discussions I see online about guns gets ugly pretty fast. It seems most people here are very respectful of people with alternate views.

 

Onto my post! I asked about people that had used guns and was asked what I meant. I would define it as using the gun to protect onesself -- discharge not required.

 

I'd also like to know from the law officers out there about situations involving guns where the person that had the gun became the victim. The tragic story of the fellow killed by the baseball bat is very, very sad.

 

Why am I interested? I am facinated by gun-culture versus gun-fact. Some folks in my family have guns and often talk about range, stopping power, discharge rate, etc. Basically, a facination with the technical specifications of the "tool". As a "computer geek" my peers also do this with computer system specifications. For myself, I'm more interested in how a tool is used and not as much in the actual tool itself. So... my interest in this topic is sparked by the initial question: "Do you carry a gun", but I am interested in the posts that are here which relate to "Why do you carry a gun" and then, quite specifically, my morphed question of "Have you ever had to realize the potential of the gun you carry?"

 

Maybe it's the old Boy Scout in me! -- never carry any more gear than you need, never go unprepared. Where do guns "fit". Personally, I have never needed a gun, wanted a gun, felt I would have been better off with a gun. Either urban or back country (and I have encountered Grizzlies with cubs, cougars (mountain lions to some of you), and wolf. I'm actually most afraid of a bull moose. I'm open-minded though. I am interested in YOUR experiences.

 

Hope that's okay here. Just curious.

Link to comment

This is not a case of a self defense probably. It sounds more like 7 idiots instead of six. Was the victim blocked from driving further, or did he choose to exit his car to confront the others in a rage? If he couldn't move his vehicle, he should have stayed in it. If he wasn't blocked, he should have left the scene. If he was a concealed carrier, he wasn't trained properly perhaps. But I suspect he was a lunatic with a gun. He couldn't have been struck down if he had stayed in the vehicle, and he could have been more easily justified in shooting if the others got into the car. He used very bad judgement, unless part of the story is missing.

Link to comment
Handguns can keep a situation from escalating at times (these statistics are not usually reported) - the gun is presented and not fired.

Many years ago here in KC we had an incident where a male was following a pick-up truck loaded with six other males. While driving, somehow the two parties became engaged in verbal assault. Eventually, the pick-up stopped in the roadway in a very busy part of the city. The lone male exited his vehicle with a gun and proceded to confront the other six males. The guy with the gun was quickly surrounded by the other six and because the gun wielding male was unable to keep an eye on all six, he was struck in the back of the head with a baseball bat. It turned out to be a fatal blow. As I approached the scene of the crime, the lone male was laying in the gutter of the road being attended to by a good samaritan. The road was a fairly steep incline so all the blood from his head was streaming down the gutter into the sewer approx. 10 ft. away. The man lived for a few minutes but eventually died. The back of his head was mush and the good samaritan held his hand on the back of his head to keep his brains from ending up in the sewer as well ... the gun was not fired.

The lone man should have kept on driving.

 

By stopping, he put himself in a deadly situation that he didn't need to be in. I suspect that the gun gave him a a feeling of confidence that he shouldn't have felt. One against six, even with a gun, are crappy odds.

 

He could have stayed in his car, kept driving, not esclated the situation, not confronted the six, and lived to see another day.

 

Poor judgment with deadly results.

 

Ed

Link to comment
Sounds like a good situation for the guy with the gun to use deadly force.

IANL, but I think this is actually a case where if he had used it and killed someone he most likely would be in prison for a good long time.

 

I don't know about other states, but in South Carolina you have the duty to retreat. This means you must exit a situation where you have to defend yourself if you can. Only when you can't leave can you defend yourself if you have reasonable cause to be in fear of bodily harm. There are certain places where you have automatically fulfilled your duty to retreat, so there are exceptions. However, in the street confronting these others is escalating the situation, not defending yourself.

Link to comment
Was the victim blocked from driving further, or did he choose to exit his car to confront the others in a rage?
It appears that both of these are true. The truck stopped so that the car was unable to move forward. Back then, we didn't have a name for it, but today the incident would have been classified as road rage. The lone male obviously used poor judgement, if he had stayed in his car, he probably would still be alive.

 

It sounds more like 7 idiots instead of six.
Absolutely ...
Link to comment

Live in CA so the answer is quite obvious ... no I do not carry when caching or not caching. <_< If CA were like 35 of the other states I too would have a permit. :lol:

 

For some good interesting reading I would recommend:

More Guns, Less Crime : Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics) by John R. Lott Jr.

Edited by Cache Viking
Link to comment

 

For some good interesting reading I would recommend:

More Guns, Less Crime : Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics) by John R. Lott Jr.

John Lott makes good reading. If I had more time I would markwell a few of his writings.

Link to comment
The BGs either move elsewhere to rape and pillage or get jobs in the food service industry

Now that was uncalled for, off-topic, and just plain mean. :lol:

Take it back! :D

I used to work in the food service industry, don't make me come over there to rape and pillage! :D The food service comment was an attempt at sarcasm. We all know that failed criminals become lawyers. <_<

Link to comment

Clearpath, great post a/b the KC incident. In the use of deadly force there is a thing called the Force Continuum it outlines what in necessary for the use of deadly force. It doesn’t matter if you are using a firearm, pointy stick, ammo can, softball bat, or multi-tool, it still applies. It did not sound line the “victim” in the KC incident had any business stopping and confronting the other individuals. By getting out of his vehicle he escalated the situation. When a person decides to carry a weapon for defense he has a moral and legal duty to become a “yellow coward” as far as conflicts go and to walk away from an altercation if possible. The AOJ force continuum is as follows:

 

Below was copied from http://www.spw-duf.info/force.html

 

The Golden Rule of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

 

 In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents.

 

 Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.

 

 Grave bodily harm generally refers to crippling injuries. In some jurisdictions it is also known as great bodily injury.

 

 When someone says, "Your presence offends me, I'm going home to go get my gun to shoot you," the threat is not immediate.

 

 When someone says, "Your presence offends me, if you return here tomorrow, I will be waiting with my gun to shoot you," the threat is not otherwise unavoidable. Even if you must return to that location, you have ample time to contact law enforcement.

 

 The other definitions require a little more explanation.

Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy

 

 In order for you to claim that you were reasonably in fear for your life (or the lives of others you had a right to protect), three conditions must be met:

 

1. Ability: The assailant(s) must have the ability to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

 

 This could be by means of a weapon, such as a knife, gun or club. This could also be by means of a weapon such as a brick, a scissors, a two-by-four, a bottle, etc.

 

 This could be by means of a disparity of force, such as male versus female, much larger body size, special skills like being a professional fighter or by larger numbers (a group attack).

 

2. Opportunity: The assailant(s) must have the opportunity to employ the ability.

 

 A group threatening to beat the tar out of you, which is behind a ten-foot-high chain link fence, lacks the opportunity, even though they have the ability.

 

 A man with a baseball bat yelling threats at you from across a busy four-lane street lacks the opportunity, even though he has the ability. When he starts crossing the street, the dynamic starts to change.

 

 An average person 21 feet (seven yards) from you can cover that distance in less than two seconds, so a person threatening you with a knife, say eight yards away, with no obstacles between you, has both the ability and the opportunity.

 

3. Jeopardy: The assailant must be behaving in such a manner that a reasonable person, knowing what you know at the time, would conclude that he is placing you in jeopardy. In some jurisdictions this is also known as motive.

 

 A friend who takes out the latest addition to his knife collection to show to you has both ability and opportunity. What is lacking is the reasonable perception that he is placing you in jeopardy by showing you his latest acquisition.

 

 As in the question of how far away is an assailant with a contact weapon still a threat, prior knowledge is a key element in judging your reasonableness. If you try to cite knowledge you didn't acquire until after the incident, it will not be allowed in court. Documented training can make the difference.

 

 Ability, opportunity and jeopardy form a tripod. If all three are not present simultaneously, you cannot prove justifiable use of force. However, there's more ...

 

The Mantle of Innocence

 

 I'm sure you've seen at least one Western movie where the evil gunfighter forces the innocent rancher to go for his gun. When the rancher is beaten to the draw, all the bad guy's buddies swear to the sheriff that the rancher went for his gun first.

 

 Hollywood script writers notwithstanding, the law generally will not tolerate this kind of behavior. If you go armed in society and seek arguments and fights, you may find a judge or jury ruling that you gave up your mantle of innocence. If this is their finding, you will not be judged to have acted in self-defense.

 

 Robert Heinlein's contention that an armed society is a polite society, like most truths, has two edges. If you choose to go armed, you'd better be polite, as well.

The Innocence of Others

 

 While the law generally allows you to use deadly force in defense of other innocent, human life, some jurisdictions may actually define whom you have a right to protect. Again, I am not an attorney, so get some legal advice.

 

 From a practical standpoint, undercover police officers have been known to have been mistaken for criminals, not only by their "prey," but also by good samaritans. On more than one occasion, a good samaritan, armed without the benefit of a license, has gotten into some deep trouble. In addition to legal issues, you may also face difficult ethical and moral questions about coming to the rescue of apparent victims who are not known to you.

Link to comment
The BGs either move elsewhere to rape and pillage or get jobs in the food service industry

Now that was uncalled for, off-topic, and just plain mean. :D

Take it back! :P

I used to work in the food service industry, don't make me come over there to rape and pillage! :D The food service comment was an attempt at sarcasm. We all know that failed criminals become lawyers. :D

CF you are really starting to piss me off! :D First you malign my chosen profession. Then you attack that of my father, both grandfathers, 3 uncles, countless cousins and so on. :P

 

Now I'm just continuing the great circle of life and following my immigrant great grandfather's occupation as a vegetable peddlar. :P

I just make them look prettier and charge a heck of a lot more. :D

I was only messin' with ya the first time-gotchya! :P:D

Link to comment

First off I can't believe this thread is still open because it has almost nothing to do with geocaching now lol. Now, on to CF's post. This isn't entirely true as here in Texas you can use deadly force to protect property under some circumstances. So your elements work pretty closely here as far as self defense of a person or third person goes but it doesn't address self defense of property.

Link to comment

 

For some good interesting reading I would recommend:

More Guns, Less Crime : Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics) by John R. Lott Jr.

John Lott makes good reading. If I had more time I would markwell a few of his writings.

I keep meaning to order the book. It was available online in pdf format when I read it. Lost the file when my previous computer took a dump.

 

And to again keep it on topic, I still do not carry a gun when caching. I walk tall and carry a big stick when in the woods ... for now. :P

Edited by Cache Viking
Link to comment
Only when I do some backcountry foray's do I bring along some insurance.

Is that an 1100 or an 11-87?

Mopar C'mon! I thought you knew your firearms. The 11-87 and 1100 (I own one) are both semi-autos. The shotgun in the photo is clearly a pump. Probably an 870. :P

 

I own many firearms and also have a ccw here in MI thou I rarely carry. You'll find, after the novelty wears off, that a cw is bulky and uncomfortable. My luck, the one time I'll need it is when I would rather be "comfortable". :P

 

Edit for speelang

Edited by Spzzmoose
Link to comment
I  love to hunt and shoot my firearms, however I do not carry one while caching.  Caching with a firearm just doesn't appeal to me.  Mainly because the risk of being stopped by law enforcement is fairly high in the sport.  They catch you with a gun and it gives the sport a black eye (even if you do have a permit).

Great point Clearpath.

 

This is the issue I struggle with most when carrying, whether geocaching or not.

 

I carry nearly 24/7 and have often wrangled with the issue of whether it is worth the potential hassle or not. For what its worth, my wife is much in favour of my packing and this is one of the strongest reasons that I continue to do so- she says she feels safer when I am armed. (We both come from strong LEO and firearm afficiando backgrounds)

 

The fact is that in many places where we cache (such as state parks), packing is illegal even with a license. Is it worth it to knowingly break the law? NO! There is definitely more to lose, in most cases, in getting caught carrying illegaly than in the VERY SMALL risk of a deadly encounter in a state park.

 

Because getting stopped by LEO is very likely doing the inherently suspicious things a cacher does, I leave my piece in the car when i cache in any area where the legality is questionable.

 

Even though I carry legally, I dread encounters with LEO (and others) where I might have to explain the presence of my weapon.

 

I am actually VERY close to abandoning a long standing habit of carrying, just because of negative images that (I perceive that) people have of people who carry.

 

I am on the fence.

 

As a Christian Minister, I realize there are many who would be aghast if they knew I pack. But for every person whom I think would look awry at me if they knew it is there, I find several who affirm the "better to have it than not"- many of whom I thought would be abhorrant of my packing.

 

I really don't know why I'm so concerned about getting caught doing what I am legally licensed to do. Sometimes its the minister thing (like not drinking even non-alcoholic beer). Partly its just not wanting the hassle of being "checked out" and being assumed to have some kind of evil intent. But because of that concern I take great pains to KEEP it HIDDEN like a five-star cache!

 

In caching, many times the risk of having to explain what you are doing is much higher than the risk of a deadly encounter. Therefore if it is not ABSOLUTELY LEGAL to have it where you are caching, it is best left at home or in the car.

 

So my advice, if anyone cares, is if you feel it is worthwhile and it is completely legal where you are caching, pack on. But please be careful- to keep it hidden, to never use it unless you absolutely have no other choice, and to carry something that is VERY unlikely to accidentally discharge.

Link to comment

I'm not sure where you are from ChurchCampDave but where I live here in Texas I feel the CHL actually helps with run ins with the police. I haven't actually ran into any while caching yet but I have had contact with police at least 10 times while carrying. Probably 6 of those were due to speeding violations. I did not receive a ticket in any of those 6 times and the conversation actually turned from what I had done to what I was carrying. More of a gun type conversation. Not that getting out of a ticket for having a CHL is right or anything, but I'm not going to complain. The other 4 times I was stopped were for various reasons of "suspicous" activity. In all cases I honestly think the officer felt more comfortable because when I hand him my liscence he knows for sure that I am carrying and there is no question about that. He also knows that I am almost surely an upstanding member of society. It's easy to get a CHL in Texas if you have a perfectly clean record and pass the background check that is done by State Police Officers here. Now that being said, I never carry my firearm into any place that it is against the law for me to carry. I will leave it in the car. I don't believe there is anything inherently evil about someone carrying a gun legally either. All of the officers that I know don't have a problem with people carrying a firearm legally. Not to say that some dont. To stay on topic, I don't see anything wrong with carrying while caching if you are in an area where it is legal to do so. I think most officers would understand that!

Link to comment

Crazies with guns made America what it is. A bunch of crazies with guns.

 

So, can anyone tell me why you would NEED a firearm while caching ( I mean in a realalistic frame of mind... not some Second Amendment crap ). And yes I am a gunowner, but don't take it caching with me. I have never felt threatened while out cachong, camping or just hiking.

Link to comment
I carry a firearm at all times. The scum of the world are getting out of prison every day. They don't stay in prison forever.

 

Not every person getting out of prison is "scum" as you put it. The majority are in thier for victimless crimes, ie, drug related offences.

Link to comment

i would agree that not everyone coming out of prison are scum but open your eyes. victimless crime such as drug related!!!

 

they break into your house for money for the drugs, they assault people for money, people die from bad drugs, drugged drivers, shall i continue. there are very few if any victimless crimes when you really think about them.

 

some people do see the error of their ways whilst inside and should be given a second chance to make amends. with due caution.

Link to comment

I'll weigh in here. I am new to caching, but I am an LEO and I carry 80% of the time.

 

Why do I carry? As an LEO it is self-explanatory to most.

 

Why should citizens carry? Because one the first things I learned as an LEO is ANYTHING can happen. Routine calls go bad fast, what you think is happening isn't, and you don't know who that is you just ran into in the woods.

 

Alot of Meth labs are done in the woods, people cultivate dope in the woods, people hang out and drink and do drugs in the woods.

 

99.9% of the time you won't ever need to use your gun. But what if? Who will be there to protect you and your family when a deranged lunatic high on drugs confronts you? Most likely you can get away or avoid them. But what if you can't?

 

Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

 

A gun in hand is worth 100 cops on the phone. The only person who can defend you is you. As an LEO I'll tell you we are great at following up and responding to events after they happen. We don't get called until its over, sometimes in progress. But we still have to get there. Who is the first line of defense? You are.

 

I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to allow my family to be victims.

 

There are no safe places, bad guys and the mentally deranged are everywhere. Is this paranoia? No this is experience. I see people all the time that I know are potentially dangerous, but not right now. They are capable of anything at anytime though.

 

Most LEO's carry because they see a side of life most "normal" people don't see. I envy that, I miss not seeing the world the way I do now.

 

As for the original reason of this thread. Yes I will carry when I cache.

Link to comment
I'll weigh in here. I am new to caching, but I am an LEO and I carry 80% of the time.

 

Why do I carry? As an LEO it is self-explanatory to most.

 

Why should citizens carry? Because one the first things I learned as an LEO is ANYTHING can happen. Routine calls go bad fast, what you think is happening isn't, and you don't know who that is you just ran into in the woods.

 

Alot of Meth labs are done in the woods, people cultivate dope in the woods, people hang out and drink and do drugs in the woods.

 

99.9% of the time you won't ever need to use your gun. But what if? Who will be there to protect you and your family when a deranged lunatic high on drugs confronts you? Most likely you can get away or avoid them. But what if you can't?

 

Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

 

A gun in hand is worth 100 cops on the phone. The only person who can defend you is you. As an LEO I'll tell you we are great at following up and responding to events after they happen. We don't get called until its over, sometimes in progress. But we still have to get there. Who is the first line of defense? You are.

 

I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to allow my family to be victims.

 

There are no safe places, bad guys and the mentally deranged are everywhere. Is this paranoia? No this is experience. I see people all the time that I know are potentially dangerous, but not right now. They are capable of anything at anytime though.

 

Most LEO's carry because they see a side of life most "normal" people don't see. I envy that, I miss not seeing the world the way I do now.

 

As for the original reason of this thread. Yes I will carry when I cache.

You are so right.

Link to comment
I carry a firearm at all times. The scum of the world are getting out of prison every day. They don't stay in prison forever.

 

Not every person getting out of prison is "scum" as you put it. The majority are in thier for victimless crimes, ie, drug related offences.

I said every day not "every person". Learn to read. :unsure:

 

Like nobby said, there's no such thing as a victemless crime. Don't be so naive.

Link to comment
I'll weigh in here. I am new to caching, but I am an LEO and I carry 80% of the time.

 

Why do I carry? As an LEO it is self-explanatory to most.

 

Why should citizens carry? Because one the first things I learned as an LEO is ANYTHING can happen. Routine calls go bad fast, what you think is happening isn't, and you don't know who that is you just ran into in the woods.

 

Alot of Meth labs are done in the woods, people cultivate dope in the woods, people hang out and drink and do drugs in the woods.

 

99.9% of the time you won't ever need to use your gun. But what if? Who will be there to protect you and your family when a deranged lunatic high on drugs confronts you? Most likely you can get away or avoid them. But what if you can't?

 

Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

 

A gun in hand is worth 100 cops on the phone. The only person who can defend you is you. As an LEO I'll tell you we are great at following up and responding to events after they happen. We don't get called until its over, sometimes in progress. But we still have to get there. Who is the first line of defense? You are.

 

I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to allow my family to be victims.

 

There are no safe places, bad guys and the mentally deranged are everywhere. Is this paranoia? No this is experience. I see people all the time that I know are potentially dangerous, but not right now. They are capable of anything at anytime though.

 

Most LEO's carry because they see a side of life most "normal" people don't see. I envy that, I miss not seeing the world the way I do now.

 

As for the original reason of this thread. Yes I will carry when I cache.

Very well written. I totally agree with you. I've worked as a dispatcher for 6 years now for the local agency here in Reno Nevada. It was when I started working there that I decided to get a CCW permit. Almost every officer I work with reccommended doing it. Our police department is very gun friendly on that part. I've had 1 encounter myself with a LEO while I was carrying and had no problem what so ever. And as you state, better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it. Fortunately while caching I've never needed it. But I do carry, #1 because Im allowed to, and #2, for the sole purpose of never knowing who or what you are going to run into. You can run into anyone and have a situation turn sideways in a snap. In the 6 years I've worked for dispatch, I've been on the end of the radio having an officer yell out "Shots Fired" on a simple noise disturbance call, or an unwanted subject call.

 

I like to know that I'm able to protect myself and my family when I'm out doing something I enjoy. I also refuse to be a victim.

 

As one other post stated here to. I do not carry where it is illegal in my area. Most parks here are not posted and have no restrictions.

 

Be safe out there. Enjoy the sport. Everyone has their own reasons, their own opinions. Hope everyone had a very Merry Christmas. Cache on!

 

Jeremy

KB7RZF

Reno Nevada

Link to comment

A point that's not often mentioned in these carry/don't-carry threads is that every Concealed Carry Permit holder has his/her background investigated prior to issuance of the permit. It's a requirement in Texas and in the 29 (last time I checked) other states that recognize a Texas permit.

 

Most police officers know and understand that a CHP carrier has passed that investigation and is more likely to be law-abiding that others he stops. They appreciate (and it's suggested in Texas classes) that CHP holders present their DL and CHP when in a traffic stop.

 

In the couple of occasions when I've been stopped for a traffic violation, I've simply handed both licenses to the officer. He asks, "Are you carrying?" when I answer in the affirmative, he says, "Keep your hands where I can see them."

Edited by valleyrat
Link to comment

This might be a good time to summarize:

  • Cachers who carry do so because they want to better prepared for unexpected encounters with dangerous people or wildlife.
  • Cachers who don't carry believe that guns are unnecessary in caching situations because dangers don't exist, can be avoided, can be handled without a gun, or that a gun would aggravate such situations.
  • Some of those who don't carry object to guns in general for a variety of reasons; political, social, aesthetic, etc.
  • Some of those who don't carry feel that the presence of the gun itself is more likely to generate a dangerous situation than to quell one. They generally cite situations that are quite unlike Geocaching, but apply their judgement generally, suggesting that they object to all private gun possession.

I'm not objective, so my list is probably incomplete and skewed toward my viewpoint (carry if you want to and can legally do so). There are few downsides to being unnecessarily prepared: slight weight penalty, some maintenance (even an unfired gun gets dirty on a hike), and occasional social awkwardness.

 

Given that in my area (SE Arizona near the border) wilderness hiking can involve encounters with drug runners and people smugglers, carrying is just a reasonable precaution, like a first-aid kit or extra water.

Link to comment
A point that's not often mentioned in these carry/don't-carry threads is that every Concealed Carry Permit holder has his/her background investigated prior to issuance of the permit. It's a requirement in Texas and in the 29 (last time I checked) other states that recognize a Texas permit.

 

Most police officers know and understand that a CHP carrier has passed that investigation and is more likely to be law-abiding that others he stops. They appreciate (and it's suggested in Texas classes) that CHP holders present their DL and CHP when in a traffic stop.

 

In the couple of occasions when I've been stopped for a traffic violation, I've simply handed both licenses to the officer. He asks, "Are you carrying?" when I answer in the affirmative, he says, "Keep your hands where I can see them."

I might add that in Texas when you are asked for your Identification by any LEO you must present you DL and CHL if you are carrying or you are in violation of the law. If you aren't carrying you don't have to but its best to anyway since he is going to find out that you have a CHL when he runs your DL.

Link to comment
Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

 

Who is the first line of defense? You are.

 

I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to allow my family to be victims.

 

There are no safe places, bad guys and the mentally deranged are everywhere. Is this paranoia? No this is experience.

AMEN. This is why I carry when I cache. (Not to mention everything else I do.) It always makes me smile to see LEO's agree too!

Link to comment
I'm new to the sport,in fact I get my Legend Christmas,but I was wondering if anyone other than the law enforcement cachers carry any type of pistol etc. for there protection.There's a lot of crazies out there and also four legged and slithery ones.I don't believe my hiking staff would be enough.

:unsure: Sorry but I think this is a very stupid question - Guns should be forbidden, period. Guns do NOT save lives, the kill. In countries where guns are not allowed, this would even not cross your mind. I used to leave in France, never in a million years I felt the need to carry a weapon and there are nuts in France as well, unfortunately the US do not have the exclusivity.

Link to comment
...Guns should be forbidden, period. Guns do NOT save lives, the kill. In countries where guns are not allowed, this would even not cross your mind. I used to leave in France, never in a million years I felt the need to carry a weapon and there are nuts in France as well, unfortunately the US do not have the exclusivity.

Here we go again.

 

Fact: People will do crimes.

Fact: People will use the tools at hand.

Fact: Crimes in a country is related more to the culture of the country.

Fact: Countries with more violence have more left handed people.

 

Perhaps we should ban left handed people? (BTW Left Handed people have an advantage in contact sports as well as self defence entirly because they are left handed).

 

In the UK there is some controvery over banning knives now. Somewhere somene told me that knives are more fatal than a shooting. Maybe it's the multiple times someone is stabbed as opposed to one or two rounds with a gun.

 

It's not the guns it's the people using them. That's related to culture. The question isn't about banning guns in criminals, since by definition they will ignore laws and do what's best for their own interests. The entire debate is about disarming the very people who don't need it.

Link to comment
:unsure: Sorry but I think this is a very stupid question - Guns should be forbidden, period. Guns do NOT save lives, the kill. In countries where guns are not allowed, this would even not cross your mind. I used to leave in France, never in a million years I felt the need to carry a weapon and there are nuts in France as well, unfortunately the US do not have the exclusivity.

You are so right! If we just ban those killer guns like Australia, Canada, and the UK have done, I'm sure we would be just as safe as they are.

 

Now all we need to do is get rid of that silly Bill Of Rights.

Edited by Mopar
Link to comment
I'm new to the sport,in fact I get my Legend Christmas,but I was wondering if anyone other than the law enforcement cachers carry any type of pistol etc. for there protection.There's a lot of crazies out there and also four legged and slithery ones.I don't believe my hiking staff would be enough.

:blink: Sorry but I think this is a very stupid question - Guns should be forbidden, period. Guns do NOT save lives, the kill. In countries where guns are not allowed, this would even not cross your mind. I used to leave in France, never in a million years I felt the need to carry a weapon and there are nuts in France as well, unfortunately the US do not have the exclusivity.

When I was in Tel Aviv Israel I observed many private citizens carrying fully automatic weapons right out in the open for all to see. That part of the world has more than their share of nut-jobs and mentally deficient nincompoops.

 

Funny, but even with all those automatic weapons, I never felt safer in any major city as I did there... :unsure:

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...