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Use Of Religeous Or Political Stickers In Logs


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For example, which of the following would be appropriate?

 

"Traditional Family Values for a Strong America."

"Fundamentalist Christian Values for a Strong America."

"Gay Family Values for a Strong America."

"Traditional Family Values for a Weak America."

"Geocachers Supporting Traditional Family Values."

 

Every single one of them would be appropriate for a LOGBOOK. I've seen log entries by muggles who were out partying that have been much more disgusting than any one of those, but it's still part of the log history. Geez, alot of you need to take a chill-pill. This country has become so PC that it makes me sick.

 

THIS IS THE LOGBOOK, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! He's not leaving pamphlets, or other trade items espousing his viewpoint. HE'S SIGNING THE LOG! If that's who he is, and that's how he feels, then it's a legitimate log, whether you agree with his view or not. No one has forced you to "read" that log.

 

I've come to realize that if you really want to see the face of intolerance (about pretty much anything), sometimes the best place to look is at those who complain the loudest about it.

 

Again, THIS IS THE LOGBOOK, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! I sometimes leave a sticker in logs that has a picture of my van (just like my avatar). I'm sure that there are geocachers who are vehemently against buying a Japanese vehicle. Should my sticker/log be deleted/banned because of that? Well, guess what? Tough! THAT'S WHO I AM! If you don't like it, don't look at it.

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Can Of Worms

 

Definition: a complicated situation or problem; a problem that once approached causes a lot of other problems to appear.

 

Explanation: Often used when pointing to a single problem which brings about a series of problems.

 

Examples: I wouldn't worry about that can of worms! - If we open that can of worms, there is no telling what problems will appear.

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You cannot control what cachers write in the log book, so ignore it and move on.

 

You can't have free speech if it is a one way street.

 

You can't ask someone to "stop injecting his personal religious beliefs or political slogans into the game." by the act of "pasting stickers in the log books stating 'Geocaching - Family Values for a Stronger America'" and then turn around and "left a Kerry for President button --Baron Max..." (a political statement, in a cache)

 

In order to exercise our free speech, perhaps we should get some Oregonians to write to Baron Max and ask him to quit signing log books with phrases like "found it" or "took nothing" which "are very offensive" ;) to some Oregonians?

 

Life is way too short. Ignore it and move on.

 

P.S. As an Oregonian, I am thankful that the gay community will be using this slogan: "Anti-Family Values for a Weaker America" as their political slogan from now on in Oregon. And thank God they have freedom of speech in America to say that. :o

 

edit for spelling

Edited by beebot
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Oregon is not known as a Christian fumdimentialst state. I think it's what is now called a "blue state" by pundits, yet judging from the election results on this issue, the majority of citizens in Oregon apparently believe that marraige should be between man and a woman. Now who are the extremists?

Oregon prides itself in being contradictory on many things and the political situation is not easy to describe. Private agendas, misinformation and legislative gridlock are part of it. Several extreme initiatives have been voted in over the years, only to be turned down or modified in court. But none of this is about Oregon politics, freedom of speech, being PC or the other topics that have barged into the discussion. It's about how to keep the game fun by avoiding topics we know will hurt feelings. I'm very accepting towards people and their opinions but I prefer that highly-charged political slogans be kept out of the game.

 

If TPTB say anything goes in log books, I can live with that. I don't think it's a good idea but I'm just one voice. I do like the notion that the log is the signer's little space and they can do what they want; it definitely tells you something about the person. OTOH we all have some responsibility to be respectful of other's feelings. If we know a phrase or slogan is insulting or confrontational, it is good manners to avoid it. When the message is repeated over and over, it may have crossed the line.

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The point is that if a slogan is judged inappropriate, one thing Groundspeak could do about it is to warn the offender that political, social and religious agendas should be kept out of geocaching. Coming from official game keepers that would have much more weight than player attempts.

Ok I am in -- Mopar stop reading this thread.

 

Grounspeak/Geocaching.com is a listing service. That is all they do. They have the ability to pick and choose caches they will list based on whatever rules/guidelines they want.

 

But I don't believe they in anyway can/should/will try to regulate what is put in a logbook somewhere. It is not their business. The only person that I think has that choice is the hider of the cache. It is their cache they can do what they like with it. Should the next step be for gc.com to tell us how long our log entries should be (see TNLNSL thread somewhere here)? Maybe they should also tell us what type of ink to use or maybe what kind of clothes to wear when caching.

 

Besides do you really want to allow that door to be open to allow anybody that gets offended by anything to get that word, sentence, thought, item, etc. banned? Boy I would have a field day with that one. I could find something offensive in everything I come across.

 

Just be an adult and understand that different people have different points of view. Get over it. Do you really want to live in a world where everybody thinks the same? Do you not get the fact that even though you may find a person's point of view offensive that they may very likely also find your point of view offensive as well?

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The point is that if a slogan is judged inappropriate, one thing Groundspeak could do about it is to warn the offender that political, social and religious agendas should be kept out of geocaching. Coming from official game keepers that would have much more weight than player attempts.

Ok I am in -- Mopar stop reading this thread.

 

Grounspeak/Geocaching.com is a listing service. That is all they do. They have the ability to pick and choose caches they will list based on whatever rules/guidelines they want.

 

But I don't believe they in anyway can/should/will try to regulate what is put in a logbook somewhere. It is not their business. The only person that I think has that choice is the hider of the cache. It is their cache they can do what they like with it. Should the next step be for gc.com to tell us how long our log entries should be (see TNLNSL thread somewhere here)? Maybe they should also tell us what type of ink to use or maybe what kind of clothes to wear when caching.

 

Besides do you really want to allow that door to be open to allow anybody that gets offended by anything to get that word, sentence, thought, item, etc. banned? Boy I would have a field day with that one. I could find something offensive in everything I come across.

 

Just be an adult and understand that different people have different points of view. Get over it. Do you really want to live in a world where everybody thinks the same? Do you not get the fact that even though you may find a person's point of view offensive that they may very likely also find your point of view offensive as well?

On a related note, what if the cache is cross listed on several sites? What if Geocaching.com attempted to police what was written in logs. I think that was what one suggestion boiled down to ("I know you can't stop it all, but they could ask people to stop in this case")... What if it's ok on Navicache? Or Politi-cache.com? :o It might even be promoted on some listing services

 

If the owner of the cache has a problem, then he or she should remove it from his cache's logbook (somehow I don't think that's right either... but it's the cache owners right). It's not the listing services job to police log entries. That's the owners job. A listing service can decide what they will or will not list, and what they will be allowed to be posted on their site/forums - but they cannot, nor should they, police log entries.

 

This is definetly one of those "you won't get offended if you don't let yourself be offended" situations.

 

sd

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f TPTB say anything goes in log books, I can live with that. I don't think it's a good idea but I'm just one voice.

 

They didn't say that. They said they don't like it, have a policy against it, but there is no way to police it. I have an idea. Why don't the anti-Christian bigots out there get together and rip out any logs that "offend" them? Then they can all get together and have a burning.

Edited by briansnat
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for crying out loud, how is a debate about gay marriage on-topic?

 

this is simple:

-religious/political caches are not allowed. this is a guideline and can be enforced by approvers

-if you see an ITEM placed in a cache that is offensive to you, take it and leave something equivalent or better in it's place.

-if you see something offensive to you in a LOGBOOK, shrug it off as ignorance or a differing opinion. if it's your cache and your logbook, take that page out if you really want to. if it's not your cache, it's not your logbook. leave it and move on.

 

legislate yourself, set examples by your own behavior, don't push the envelope, take a deep breath and play the game. this doesn't have to be rocket science!

 

i'm finding the forums to be detrimental to my panties staying out of a wad...

Edited by vree13
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f TPTB say anything goes in log books, I can live with that. I don't think it's a good idea but I'm just one voice.

 

They didn't say that. They said they don't like it, have a policy against it, but there is no way to police it. I have an idea. Why don't the anti-Christian bigots out there get together and rip out any logs that "offend" them? Then they can all get together and have a burning.

Feel the warmth!

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What everyone else said!

 

Meaning...That I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it.

 

Now lets see who in here is bright enough to understand that.

 

El Diablo

me...and I agree

 

one of the great things about freedom of speech is that it doesn't just apply to speech that you, or "they", agree with...it applies to all speech or it isn't free

 

aside from that...if a log entry bothers you skip it...if I see material in a cache that bugs me, I always trade it out (unless it's obvious {not subjective} garbage...like broken glass or expired coupons)

 

nfa-jamie

Edited by NFA
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"When they came for the gypsies, I did not speak, for I am not

a gypsy. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak, because I

wasn't a Jew. When they came for the Catholics, I did not speak, for I

am not a Catholic. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak."

 

On the Wall at the Holocaust Museum in Washington

 

Do us all a favor and don't compare a sticker in a logbook to a holocaust. Talk about offensive. :o;)

 

[edit: self modded]

It all starts somewhere, doesn't it?

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I have an idea. Why don't the anti-Christian bigots out there get together and rip out any logs that "offend" them? Then they can all get together and have a burning.

Isn't that what Christian bigots tend to do? No way I'm gonna lend my Beatles cds to you! :o

 

Geocaching is bigger than Jesus.

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It all starts somewhere, doesn't it?

One of the great astonishments of my adult life has been watching the generations coming up after me cheapen the holocaust. Must be the way they're teaching WWII these days or something. Every inconvenience, every restraint, every offensive remark is somehow seen as headed straight down the fast track for Godwin territory.

 

If I believed in forcing people to do stuff, I think I'd decree that everyone be made to sit the World at War over and over again until the scale, the hugeness and the wickedness of the whole thing sinks in.

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Grounspeak/Geocaching.com is a listing service. That is all they do. They have the ability to pick and choose caches they will list based on whatever rules/guidelines they want.

 

But I don't believe they in anyway can/should/will try to regulate what is put in a logbook somewhere. It is not their business. The only person that I think has that choice is the hider of the cache. It is their cache they can do what they like with it. ...

 

Just be an adult and understand that different people have different points of view. Get over it. Do you really want to live in a world where everybody thinks the same? Do you not get the fact that even though you may find a person's point of view offensive that they may very likely also find your point of view offensive as well?

This argument makes sense to a degree but Groundspeak does more than just list caches. They also provide guidance on how to play the game as well as a forum for players to exchange information and discuss things. I agree that they should not be heavy-handed about regulating log books but I don't see anything wrong with them reminding a player of the guidelines in some situations. Whether this is one of those situations is up to them to decide.

 

This is not about suppressing opinion or anyone's level of acceptance. It is about avoiding loaded words that have no bearing on the game. Some things are best left unsaid in this context. I'm happy to discuss values over a beer but I don't want to see them plastered in every other cache I visit.

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It all starts somewhere, doesn't it?

One of the great astonishments of my adult life has been watching the generations coming up after me cheapen the holocaust. Must be the way they're teaching WWII these days or something. Every inconvenience, every restraint, every offensive remark is somehow seen as headed straight down the fast track for Godwin territory.

 

If I believed in forcing people to do stuff, I think I'd decree that everyone be made to sit the World at War over and over again until the scale, the hugeness and the wickedness of the whole thing sinks in.

And what else is staggering is the thought that it could never happen again... Not to us! Not in such a civilized world!

Edited by Alekat
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I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem;  The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief.  Certainly if said  Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that.  Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken?  That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera?  I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

I think the issue is, in Oregon "Family Values" is the same thing as "anti-gay."

I think we all get that, now. The problem is context. I just dont see anything anti-gay in the context used here.

So in Oregon, if I say "My family values the time we have left with my gay cousin with AIDS" I will be offending my cousin and his husband? Or, if I say "My cousin and his husband are trying to instill strong family values in their kids before he dies" I'm gonna piss off mad max?

Ummmm, you trying to be funny or make others feel stupid?

 

Put it on a sign in Oregon, or have the sentence start with "whoever for" and you chage the meaning. Just like the work cracker can be used a million times a day, but from the wrong person to the wrong person in the wrong area then you better duck. And you kow what I'm saying.

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One test might be if the slogan would be acceptable on these forums or in on-line logs as a signature item.

Thanks for a super idea! I've been meaning to change my sig line for awhile. Now, this may get me banned in the Oregon Geocaching Association forums, but I don't post there.

I'll miss the old sig, but the new one ain't half bad (which means it ain't half good but I'm tolerant enough to accept it :o )

 

Time for everyone who hasn't already joined the rest of the big boys and girls to realize that everyday somebody is going to disagree with you and "offend" you so suck it up, realize that just maybe they didn't do intentially and go on about your life. (Then follow Auntie Weasel's advice and watch World at War).

 

Merry Christmas all!

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This argument makes sense to a degree but Groundspeak does more than just list caches. They also provide guidance on how to play the game as well as a forum for players to exchange information and discuss things. I agree that they should not be heavy-handed about regulating log books but I don't see anything wrong with them reminding a player of the guidelines in some situations. Whether this is one of those situations is up to them to decide.

 

And if they did Baron Max should get the first email because I think a John Kerry Pin is much more political then "Geocaching - Family Values for a Stronger America". Its all about whose side your on.

 

I guess he thinks that leaving that pin is not political or offensive to anyone because thats his view, and I'd venture to guess the man with the stickers doesn't think "Geocaching - Family Values for a Stronger America" is political or offensive because thats his view as well. If every one would just respect others opinions whether they be pro-family, anti-family, anti-gay, pro-gay, anti-abortion, pro-abortion, whatever, we are all different people from different walks of life. Thats the problem with me and most other americans, we are always at each others throats about everything, maybe we should legalize marijuana so we can all chill a little.

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And what else is staggering is the thought that it could never happen again...  Not to us!  Not in such a civilized world!

Of course it could. The more the horror is trivialized, the more thinkable it becomes.

I agree. And I'm sorry if you thought that I was triavializing the holocaust. On the contrary, I am very sensitive to those horrors, but also to what led up to those horrors. Just trying to help clear up what another post was suggesting, that the holocaust didn't happen all at once, there there were certain sentiments that led to its ugly conclusion. Sentiments, beliefs, although they should be "free", are indeed dangerous. And if we don't examine them very, very carefully, then we are led to ugly conclusions...

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Put it on a sign in Oregon, or have the sentence start with "whoever for" and you chage the meaning.  Just like the work cracker can be used a million times a day, but from the wrong person to the wrong person in the wrong area then you better duck.  And you kow what I'm saying.

 

This could be said about many combinations of words. Are caches with the names of "Choice" or containing the word "Lockbox" or maybe even the saying "It takes a village", political ... NO, however all of these could be construed as political; they all are words from the political lexicon of our society.

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Godwin's Law has been raised again, this time along with Case's Corollary, which states "if the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one."

 

Some more reading about Godwin's Law. You should definitely read this type of information before invoking it.

 

(edit: correct vocab)

Edited by Jeremy
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Put it on a sign in Oregon, or have the sentence start with "whoever for" and you chage the meaning. Just like the work cracker can be used a million times a day, but from the wrong person to the wrong person in the wrong area then you better duck. And you kow what I'm saying.

I think you've hit a key point here. If you say it to the wrong person, perhaps you should duck.

 

The majority of my students are black. Every now and then I get called a cracker. I always respond by asking "Ritz or Saltine?".

 

That usually confuses the lil butt head.

 

Seriously - it's only offensive if you let it offend you.

 

sd

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“We have two kinds of morality side by side:  one which we preach but do not practice and another which we practice but seldom preach.”  ~Bertrand Russell

 

If ya ask me, the guy placing the stickers touting “family values” is the same guy that goes home, beats the crap out of his wife, rapes his children and later gets together with his “buddies” to suffocate a few gerbils in an unspeakable orifice just for fun.

 

By now, don’t we all realize that the ones who preach morality the loudest also have the most dirt to hide?

 

Don’t let it bother you, there are better things to worry about.

Why is it that you feel that you can make a generalization such as this one, yet if I did the same thing from the opposite end of the spectrum and used words like glory holes or tossing salad it would probably be too offensive for your delicate sensibilities?

 

Yes, I admit on behalf of the entire heterosexual community that we have gerbil parties when you are not looking, and pretend to be wholesome and moral the rest of the time. Feel better now?

 

...make a generalization such as this one...

 

I call ‘em as I see ‘em, that’s how.

 

...glory holes or tossing salad...

 

I don’t care what you do in the privacy of your home...(BTW, shhhh - any pics on your website?) :o

 

...on behalf of the entire heterosexual community that we have gerbil parties...

 

speak for yourself!

 

...would probably be too offensive for your delicate sensibilities...

 

None here. I don't think I've ever been "offended"...I wouldn’t even get "offended" if you typed an insult about my mother: it’s just text. You could even try it face-to-face; I might be a little annoyed that I skinned my knuckle in the process of blasting your front teeth down your throat, but "offended?" No way. ;)

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Godwin's Law has been raised again, this time along with Case's Corollary, which states "if the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one."

 

Some more reading about Godwin's Law. You should definitely read this type of information before invoking it.

 

(edit: correct vocab)

Godwin's is a bit too black-and-white for me. I can see where bringing up Hitler and the Nazis and the holocaust can be meaningless, but I also see that it can be very useful - as a very extreme example. Philosophy is full of extreme examples used to refute blanket-statements that some people take as true. Take for example the statement that "majority opinion is right." I'm sure you can think of many examples where this was not the case. But we could easily fall into a long, unneeded moral discussion. Just trying to say that sometimes we need extreme examples to open eyes. Although I agree that Nazi comparisons are vastly overused.

 

Thanks for the link.

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Godwin's is a bit too black-and-white for me. I can see where bringing up Hitler and the Nazis and the holocaust can be meaningless, but I also see that it can be very useful - as a very extreme example.

Since you won't read the whole page, I will point out the one area that specifically relates to this thread:

 

Many people have extended Godwin's Law to imply that the invoking of the Nazis as a debating tactic (in any argument not directly related to World War II or the Holocaust) automatically loses the argument, simply because the nature of these events is such that any comparison to any event less serious than genocide or extinction is invalid and in poor taste.

 

As others have indicated, and now I indicate, is that using it to arguer a point less serious than genocide or extinction is invalid and in poor taste.

 

If you can't debate on your own merits, stop debating it. You're not opening anyone's eyes with invoking Godwin's Law.

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We must be the very self-absorbed, because we never read other cachers logs in the logbook. I figured you cannot really write anything profound on a small, semi damp pad other than: "Nice cache", "easy find", "right where it should be", "Took, left or swapped TB's" "TNLNSL" We do read the logs online, which from this topic, leads me to believe that what is written in the logbooks is very different from what's written online? hmmmmmmm

 

1/3 Brodiebunch (other 1/3 is at work, another 1/3 is at doggy daycare)

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As others have indicated, and now I indicate, is that using it to arguer a point less serious than genocide or extinction is invalid and in poor taste.

 

And that is one place where it is too black-and-white. Comparing Darfur to Nazi Germany would be one instance where "Godwin's law" would thus allow such a comparison. But how about a situation that could lead to genocide or extintion? Is that any less serious of a point? Most of us do not think that it could happen, but there are plenty of instances of the killing, beating, etc (the persecution) of someone else who is a member of a group because of who they are (religious membership, sexual-orientation, color, etc) If enough people felt that these people were sub-human, couldn't we see laws being made to reduce their rights? It's not that unimaginable of a jump to genocide. Why? Because it HAS HAPPENED before. And so I see no problem with using the comparison here, because it is a horrific reference point, a reminder of what unfounded beliefs can lead to. It is a most powerful and humbling reference point.

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ok....well i came up with this before the whole 'crying nazi' thing

 

i just think of the phrase "you're work will set you free" sound familiar?

 

i think its pretty offensive

 

if you didnt get it the first time you may be asking yourself 'why would hard work and freedom be offensive to anyone? because it isnt offensive to me!'

 

what if i said it in it's native tongue? "arbeit macht frei" ?

 

still not offended?

 

try googleing it and try to figure out why somebody might be offended by what would otherwise be an innocent phrase

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And that is one place where it is too black-and-white.

You see what you want to see. No use in me debating it further.

 

We do address issues with logs posted on the geocaching.com web site but only in extreme cases, such as the use of racial slurs and other offensive language, or offensive photos. I don't see that happening in this particular case.

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I do not see anything wrong with the sticker.  unless it is the size of a bumper sticker.

 

IMHO  Anything that promotes families doing things together is a good thing.

As usual, the forum posts go sideways quickly. Again, I'll point out that the sticker in question (normal address label size) says:

 

Traditional Family Values For A Strong America

 

The phrase "Traditional Family Values" has considerable baggage attached to it that has nothing to do with promoting families doing things together. During the past couple of years it has become strongly associated with a certain set of contentious religious, social and political viewpoints.

 

Is this sticker appropriate for a cache log? Yes or no. It seems like most posters here think "Yes" although it is unclear if they understand what the sticker actually says. It was unfortunate that Baron Max's original post left out "Traditional" which changes the meaning considerably.

 

If inappropriate, should anything be done about it by the cache owner or Groundspeak or the geocaching community? It sounds like the general attitude is that the cache owner is the only one with authority and that a gentle helping hand from Groundspeak is unwelcome. Fair enough.

 

And, for the record, the sticker user was indeed contacted over a month ago, did not respond and continues to use the stickers.

 

"If America ever passes out as a great nation, we ought to put on our tombstone: America died from a delusion she had Moral Leadership."  -Will Rogers

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Geocaching is bigger than Jesus.

 

See, now, that statement (to me) is offensive. That being said, I'm not going to ask Jeremy to create a rule that says it can't be posted in here. I'm not going to try to hack the site and delete the post in which that statement was made. I'm not going to act all thin-skinned and say, "How horrible."

 

I'll merely exercise my free speech and say that Jesus has been around about 2000 years longer than Geocaching and let it go at that! ;)

 

Edit: Oh, wait, is that off topic? :o

Edited by Mudinyeri
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If inappropriate, should anything be done about it by the cache owner or Groundspeak or the geocaching community? It sounds like the general attitude is that the cache owner is the only one with authority and that a gentle helping hand from Groundspeak is unwelcome. Fair enough.

If was inappropriate Groundspeak would address it.

 

What was the course of action? Oh yes, someome in the community judged it inappropriate themselves, took it upon themselves to restrict the geocacher, and without result came here to the forums for support.

 

:o

 

What did they ask Groundspeak to do? I missed that part.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Godwin's Law has been raised again, this time along with Case's Corollary, which states "if the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one."

 

Some more reading about Godwin's Law. You should definitely read this type of information before invoking it.

 

(edit: correct vocab)

Alekat's Corollary: Anytime Nazism is mentioned in a thread, Godwin's Law is sure to be mentioned and/or quoted.

 

Sorry, I had to... :o

 

Crazy thing - I was never arguing the main point of the thread. I just got into a sub-sub-argument. Ooops.

Edited by Alekat
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Goodness! All this is making me wonder if the smiley face stickers that we put in our logs is offensive to anyone. If those smiley face stickers mean anything more than passing a smile along "to the next finder", please let us know. We sure don't mean to offend anyone. It seems to me that in our 60 years, we've seen more and more symbols, etc. adopted by groups as their own thing. In doing so, they've become unusable to the rest of us. Is this thread a result of cold weather that's preventing us from geocaching or are we just looking for something to knit-pic about? If I hit the calculator correctly, there are "just" 93 days left until Spring. That's something all of us in the cold climates can look forward to.

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Geocaching is bigger than Jesus.

 

See, now, that statement (to me) is offensive. That being said, I'm not going to ask Jeremy to create a rule that says it can't be posted in here. I'm not going to try to hack the site and delete the post in which that statement was made. I'm not going to act all thin-skinned and say, "How horrible."

 

I'll merely exercise my free speech and say that Jesus has been around about 2000 years longer than Geocaching and let it go at that! ;)

 

Edit: Oh, wait, is that off topic? :o

However, Divine was just alluding to a famous quote of John Lennon, when he said that The Beatles were bigger than Jesus and caused a lot of controversy.

 

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to be offended by his example.

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