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Tnlnsl A Rante!


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(1) Cache contents degrade with time.

(2) TNLNSL does not affect cache contents.

(3) Therefore trading degrades cache contents.

(4) So how is it "selfish" to engage in a practice that, comparatively speaking, leaves caches in better shape than the average trade?

 

--This line of discussion is entirely about one group wanting to impose its preferences on another through entirely unpersuasive means ("...A Rante").

 

If you really want to encourage trading, why not try the carrot instead of the stick (of overcooked spaghetti)? When you see logs that indicate the kind of trading activity that you like to see, click the cacher's profile and send 'em a note full of lavish praise and warm fuzzies. Griping will just harden hearts against you and absolutely convince others that you're being peevish. Generous praise is 99.9% effective.

Good recommendation :) . I often wonder why people merely talk about things when they can affect better outcomes locally by acting. Your post demonstrates this. We often write posters directly to congratulate them on difficult finds or good trades. We have also found that a kind word regarding a TB helps keep them moving and a kind word to a TB owner is always appreciated. :(

 

-->

The line of discussion you quoted was unpersuasive because it contains faulty logic. People recognize faulty logic and become unconvinced. Having said this, I cannot say that I have found too many folks get convinced from online forums anyway. I was asked to post by a friend that felt that the topic could benefit from my ideas...so call him crazy.

 

Now to the unpersuasive arguments you quoted. Let's analyze these...despite the OP having met his/her goal...

#1: Cache contents degrade over time when three things occur:

1) People take items without leaving anything (reduces content)

2) People trade down (reduces quality)

3) People fail to trade (content ages or begins to take on odor and deteriorates, thus reducing quality)

 

So, cache contents can, but must not necessarily degrade over time.

 

#2: TNLNSL does not change the contents, but according to 3) above, this will reduce the quality of the contents.

 

So, TNLNSL over time can affect a cache's contents over time.

 

#3: Proper trading improves a cache's content, so the premise' conclusion rests only on down-trading, which is not considered proper.

 

So, trading does not necessarily degrade cache contents...only improper trading.

 

#4: TNLNSL robs others of a freshened cache and over time, according to 3) above can negatively affect a cache. Thus, it is a selfish act.

 

The groups in question are the TNLNSL crowd verses the non-TNLNSL crowd. Both attempt to rationalize choosing to "take something, leave something" or ignoring the rule.

 

It is an interesting debate, but I do not think that many will chage sides. It is simply too easy to TNLNSL for many in that camp to justify the additional time, pleasure and joy, and surprise that they could give another geocacher with a change in habit.

 

Perhaps if online logs and follow-up emails begin to mention specific content and the experience geocachers have in find them, then trades will resume and become a highly respected part of the game again....

 

We can only hope

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Ahhh Shucks!!! Guys . . . where has the joy gone. It's all about fun, not rules. NO one is being robbed that follows a TNLNSL since the cache is left intact, as it was found. I almost always actually TNLNSL, but never actually write that in he log . . . I leave a note of expression in hte log AND on the cache web page. I appreciate those who place & maintain caches - I can do this without handling and hauling a lot of merchandise.

 

Let me and actually MOST others seekers enjoy caching the way that gives us joy . . . you do the same and we will support you. It's about having safe, healthy and courteous fun . . . GO FOR IT!

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Excellent! Very glad to hear it. Welcome back to the take something, leave something crowd. (Well, we hope you are back.  :blink: )

I think they mean they just won't write TNLN. I doubt you're causing many people to switch teams.

 

I don't trade often but I do leave nice long logs.

As I mentioned in another post...my experience with forums is that very few people change a viewpoint. I shall accept no credit for causing anyone to as you say, "switch sides." And, yes, I well understood the possible interpretation that you suggest. One would like to hope... :blink:

 

People convince themselves of whatever they choose to do. Sometimes the written word helps them examine some notions that they might not otherwise. :P

 

Glad that you trade every now and then.

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You want people to trade more? How about putting worth-while stuff in the cache. I always trade evenly or better......if there's something in there. You can't make people take crap out of caches. I don't buy Happy Meals at McDonalds because I'm a big boy now and don't need cheap toys. Why would I take them out of caches, just because.......it just doesn't make sense.

 

The last couple months I've been doing a lot of TNLNSL. Mainly because I've found so many caches that are great caches......but have horrible stuff inside. That doesn't mean I haven't worked at getting the cache. I've hiked a mile in to it......I still believe I've done the cache.....even if I TNLNSL.

 

Maybe the responsiblity of having good swag in the cache isn't the cachers.....but the person who put the container out there.

 

So you can call me lazy. You can say I'm not really caching......whatever. Until I find something worth my while in there, I'll keep TNLNSL. Thank you very much.

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Edited for points I want to refute:

...People fail to trade (content ages or begins to take on odor and deteriorates, thus reducing quality)

...TNLNSL robs others of a freshened cache and over time, according to 3) above can negatively affect a cache. Thus, it is a selfish act.

 

Whoa. This is a a stretch. It would only be true if

 

(1) Almost nobody traded, and

(2) all items acquired through trade were retained and not used as swag in another cache, and

(3) all items had an equal probability of being acquired through trade.

 

You'll note that several respondents above overcame some TNLNSLites' cost objections by suggesting that only one 'seed' trade was really required--from that point onward, cost-conscious cachers could simply use the swag acquired from the last trade for the next trade. This technique does nothing to freshen trade items; it just moves them from cache to cache. Unless the next "Rante" (apologies to OP) will be that people should trade only fresh trinkets. And to do otherwise is "selfish."

 

C'mon guys, don't engage in specious, long-shot arguments. You were just getting a little traction when you hauled out this whopper. Don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Decades ago when I was an evil troll of a teenage Radio Shack salesman, I learned to shut up and start writing the order as soon as the sale was made.

 

This discussion is fascinating as a Petri dish to examine styles of rhetoric and persuasion, or at least attempts at persuasion. Seems to me that the rhetorical Judo on the anti-TNLNSL side is directed not at winning over the opposition, but in getting the opposition to acknowledge that traders are noble and TNLNSLites are selfish. Since this is clearly futile, the real purpose is for trinket traders to congratulate themselves. Take a bow, guys, you're all wonderful :blink: Maybe not the greatest debaters, but wonderful nonetheless.

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Edited for points I want to refute:

...People fail to trade (content ages or begins to take on odor and deteriorates, thus reducing quality)

...TNLNSL robs others of a freshened cache and over time, according to 3) above can negatively affect a cache. Thus, it is a selfish act.

 

Whoa. This is a a stretch. It would only be true if

 

(1) Almost nobody traded, and

(2) all items acquired through trade were retained and not used as swag in another cache, and

(3) all items had an equal probability of being acquired through trade.

Actually, your logic and argument fails, despite your implied expertise at debate :blink: .

 

Permit a bit of a refinement and clarification:

 

Many caches are located in wooded areas :blink: . Despite being waterproof (hopefully, waterproof :P ), cache contents over time begin to take on the odor of the surrounding areas :P . (Fact) Thus, left alone and in the woods without trades or with but few trades, caches will become negatively affected (by the musty odor). Unless one likes the aforementioned odor.

 

Items #2 and #3 of your argument really have little bearing on the original premise (proper analysis is a one-cache consideration, apples-to-apples, etc.) :santa: . However, cache aging, which is the central premise behind the assertion to which you object, does depend on not enough people trading to circumvent the natural tendency of cache contents to age. Although this is certainly less than all as you suggest :P .

 

Certainly a content cache (not log-only) can be seeded with only one item :P , many would consider this a lame initial cache set-up. (I certainly would.) Hopefully, the intent of the original "TNLN Rant" was to reduce this occurance. Although we have encountered sparsely stocked caches, I cannot recall a non-micro that was stocked with only one item when we found it.

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Okey-doke. So moving a trade item from one wilderness cache to another (a common phenomenon in trading) prevents trinket-rot? The trinkets emerge into the sunlight, blink and take a deep breath of fresh air and are restored, ready to be plunged into the mildewy darkness of another cache?

 

I'm going to hoist the white flag here. As I said in my previous post, traders are noble and we TNLNSLites are selfish. It's patently obvious. I see that now. How I will live with the shame of having my shriveled soul exposed in this way, I don't know. It is, however, cruel of you trinket-traders to have brought me to this sorry state. I'm merely selfish; you are cruel, Cruel, CRUEL!

 

Now that you have destroyed the TNLNSLites, who is the next target? Since you have demonstrated that refraining from trading ruins remote caches, what about those who are unwilling or unable to visit those caches? They are not trading in them either. They must be cruelly lashed for their selfishness as well.

Edited by Mule Ears
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Okey-doke. So moving a trade item from one wilderness cache to another (a common phenomenon in trading) prevents trinket-rot? The trinkets emerge into the sunlight, blink and take a deep breath of fresh air and are restored, ready to be plunged into the mildewy darkness of another cache?

 

I'm going to hoist the white flag here. As I said in my previous post, traders are noble and we TNLNSLites are selfish. It's patently obvious. I see that now. How I will live with the shame of having my shriveled soul exposed in this way, I don't know. It is, however, cruel of you trinket-traders to have brought me to this sorry state. I'm merely selfish; you are cruel, Cruel, CRUEL!

 

Now that you have destroyed the TNLNSLites, who is the next target? Since you have demonstrated that refraining from trading ruins remote caches, what about those who are unwilling or unable to visit those caches? They are not trading in them either. They must be cruelly lashed for their selfishness as well.

Trinket cache migration might prevent trinket rot...just depends on the trinket and whether the breath of fresh air helps or not :lol: .

 

Gee, I was appreciating your mind and enjoying our repartee. White flag it is then.

 

Guilt, no guilt, it is a personal thing. Certainly, do not feel any guilt on my account...only if you violate your own conscience.

 

As to a shrivelled soul...believe me, your soul will survive to cache again :angry: .

 

Personally, I would find it hard to believe that anyone feels guilty about a nearly free game, but there you have it. Where else can you get exercise, a sense of accomplishment, and visit new places for a few bucks a trip? Life is short...don't be cheap is a good motto :lol: .

 

Happy Holidays...may the New Year bring you many exciting finds.

 

The Callan Crew Patriarch

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White flag was really a tactical retreat I guess, 'cause I'm still here. We agree on more than we differ, and this discussion is like Geocaching itself--pointless but fun! I gotta get back to work, though :angry:

 

May you and yours have a very *Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year.

 

(*As employed here, the expression is meant to include all winter holiday celebrations; whatever you're having, may it be Merry.)

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You want people to trade more? How about putting worth-while stuff in the cache.

<<snip>>

Mainly because I've found so many caches that are great caches......but have horrible stuff inside.

<<snip>>

Maybe the responsiblity of having good swag in the cache isn't the cachers.....but the person who put the container out there.

We definitely concur...to a point. Good stuff attracts...bad stuff repels. And, all would (we hope :lol: ) agree that the initial stock of the cache is most certainly the responsibility of the cache owner.

 

One could also go so far as to say that a periodic quality check of contents might also be expected of cache owners :lol: . If contents are not living up to expectations, then trade up some of the also rans during the next maintenance check :angry: .

 

Also, although mentioned briefly in another topic thread, having a mixture of stuff for both kids and adults will encourage more adults caching alone to trade.

 

And, No, we do not expect you to play with McD toys as an adult... :lol:

 

Thanks for the ideas.

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I think they mean they just won't write TNLN. I doubt you're causing many people to switch teams.

 

My thoughts exactly.....I have no intentions of so called "switching teams". I just choose to no longer include TNLNSL in my log. I guess then you'll have to determine by my log whether I took something or not :angry: What's in the cache will still determine whether or not I choose to trade.

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What about FNTNLNDSL?

 

Found Nothing

Took Nothing

Left Nothing

Didn't Sign Log

:D:D:lol::lol:

 

I got exposed to Geocaching from a post on a totally unrelated message board about a year ago.

 

I don't have a GPS. (YET)

I've never been on a search. (YET)

I've never hid anything. (YET)

 

But I totally enjoy reading the post of everyone that is doing it.

 

The adventures of a good hid cache and creativity of them is better than any ol' trinket I could ever hope to trade.

 

I have been nothing but a lurker here on the forums also. (This is my first post)

 

One of the things that I have observed is that the majority of people find more enjoyment in a well hid/creative/interesting historical location/rare nature formation(Take your pick) cache than the contents of the actual cache.

 

The sense of adventure and getting outside into nature seems to be the main objective for most cachers.

 

I will be changing my status as a non-participating observer to a actual participant in the "VERY" near future. Sitting before me right now is a Magellan SportTrak that I borrowed from my bro-in-law/hunter just last night (Now I gotta figure out how to work this thing!! :lol: )

 

I already have a loaded hunt log ready for my first 50 quest in my area.

 

After finding a few and getting my feel of how things actually work, I have several areas in my area in mind for my first hide. Lots of creative ideas on how to conceal them so they are completely visible to even Muggles, but "coded" so us Geocachers will know what they are. ;)

 

Also, I am setting up a webpage on my website to post my finds, hides, and adventures in Geocaching.

 

Also, have a plans of a multi-cache/puzzle cache using my website as the backbone for getting the location for the next cache from the answers to the puzzle found in the actual caches. (You will have to find the cache to get the next level's URL before you can proceed to the next cache.)

May open up a whole new category of cache!! :D:lol:

 

Already have two of those in the planning stages. One a local in-town only and the other will be one that cover caches hidden within a 50-100 mile radius of our city.

These are going to be really fun I think! Gonna take some planning and time to do them. Not gonna be a run out and pad my "Find" quotta type either.

 

I think that's what the finds need to be more than anything, Fun and Enjoyable.

 

What's the big deal of finding a "MICRO" magnetic key holder attached to a light pole in a parking lot?

Not that there is anything wrong at all with "Micros", I have 4 in the plans right now. But I guarantee they will NOT be the norm, but they will be fun and challenging. Two of them are going to be "DOH!"'s. :D:D

 

I think some of the best hid ones that I have read about have been the ones that are "hid in plain sight" kind.

Finding the actual cache is the best part of the search and I plan on all of mine to have that challenge and adventure.

 

Have Fun!!

Enjoy The Fresh Air!!

Be Safe!!

 

D-man B)

Edited by gridlox
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I really don't mind finders who don't trade, but I HATE cache logs that only say "TNLNSL" At least they could come right out and say "this cache was so pointless and ill-conceived that I refuse to waste my time writing about my visit (but I posted a smiley to get my numbers up)."

 

Personally, I don't always trade, but I always brinng trade items along (as does my team, when we cache together). I usually try to leave something to improve the cache for the next finder. When I do take an item, it is usually just a rememberance of the caching trip.

Thank you, my sentiments exactly.

 

I always try... TRY to write something, even if it was only a few lines. That way the cache owner knows I'm not trying to say "this cache sucks" unless it does indeed, actively, suck.

 

I'm annoyed with the "copy and pasters" also. I don't care if you did 100 in the area today -- a log that says "this is one I did today" etc., ad nauseum, on a cache or multicache that I worked my butt off to place is an insult.

 

Oh, wait... was that actually driving the posts back towards being on topic? Oops, sorry! :D

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TNLNSL

 

Yes it gets old seeing this time after time.

 

People should take time to write a few words on what they saw in the sights on the way or at the cache. I prefer doing this in the online log rather than the log in the cache - I like to share and you never know the fate of a logbook will be.

 

Cache owner should also take note that perhaps the finder doesn't see what you see and rather writing something not so nice they just sign the log.

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People should take time to write a few words ...

 

The original poster's comment had to do with people refraining from trading, rather than short-changing their logs. I've noticed that in many cases folks write just the minimum in the paper logbook, then crank out an elaborate log online. To each his own.

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But I am talking about always TNLNSL.

 

I mean whats up with that?!

 

I know I am sounding like a jerk...and of course I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I just think we are slowly getting away from what geocaching was meant to be.

I think it is because we just don't want to put the effort into it.

 

Also at the risk of being on-topic :D

 

I know... I tried to suggest a notion of "cache angel" that basically takes it intentionally in the shorts on a trade... trading out the distressed crap from a neglected cache, leaving what was minimally servicable, and adding in trade for the junk (some were concerned about not trading out for it... so a trade was stipulated).

 

At least that would *help* take care of the "ghetto" cache... but I got an a** reaming for using my subjective thoughts to help out the cache (as if I had something else to use as a basis). "How do you know someone won't someday want that balloon with a hole in it?"

 

Sheesh. I don't. But let's *risk* it, shall we? a shortage of popped balloons in the sport is not going to hurt anyone. Disappointed kids... that might. They are the future cachers...!

 

I expressed the same concerns as you... that the trade was in danger... and loosing ground. Everything I see and hear seems more and more about TNLNSL... leaving only the "hikers" that claim to "cache"... while real cachers that understand the basis for the game and participate are more and more apt to lose interest.

 

Of course "hikers" have less reason to care or even notice.

 

A cache full of land-fill, almost literally at times, suggests to every new cacher that *that* is the standard that they are supposed to adopt, and so it is perpetuated... until they say "screw it" and go TNLNSL. Or leave.

 

Sad... because kids really like a nice cache to trade in, especially.

 

Peace,

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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What about FNTNLNDSL?

 

Found Nothing

Took Nothing

Left Nothing

Didn't Sign Log

:D:D:D:D

 

I got exposed to Geocaching from a post on a totally unrelated message board about a year ago.

 

I don't have a GPS. (YET)

I've never been on a search. (YET)

I've never hid anything. (YET)

 

But I totally enjoy reading the post of everyone that is doing it.

 

The adventures of a good hid cache and creativity of them is better than any ol' trinket I could ever hope to trade.

I expect that you may find that doing a thing is quite a bit different than merely reading about a thing :D . I would encourage you to explore all the possibilities of the hobby...including collectable trinkets that you choose to trade.

 

After a while you may find that you want a "brand" trinket that you choose to leave as a signature item in caches B) . When you find a few regular caches with these collectibles it will be clear what I mean here. So, until you get out there I would not discount the added value of trading over and above that of the hunt/hike/discovery/adventure/comraderie. Many folks enjoy both :D .

 

The Puzzle/Multi is a common combination :D . People find them quite a challenge. We have several in NC and I have two of my own (will be three soon). Good ones are difficult to think up :D , but some people really crave this genre, so by all mean "go for it."

 

Good luck with your New Year of geocaching for real :D .

 

The Callan Crew Patriarch

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"Iknow... I tried to suggest a notion of "cache angel" that basically takes it intentionally in the shorts on a trade... trading out the distressed crap from a neglected cache, leaving what was minimally servicable, and adding in trade for the junk (some were concerned about not trading out for it... so a trade was stipulated).

 

At least that would *help* take care of the "ghetto" cache... but I got an a** reaming for using my subjective thoughts to help out the cache (as if I had something else to use as a basis). "How do you know someone won't someday want that balloon with a hole in it?"

 

Sheesh. I don't. But let's *risk* it, shall we? a shortage of popped balloons in the sport is not going to hurt anyone."

i know spiff's ears must have been burning when he posted here--his thread was the first thing that came to my mind, too. he ended up with new orifices when he suggested leaving caches in better shape than when found, but now, in a lightening-fast 180 of public opinion, he should get a royalty fee from everyone who's on the previously blacklisted "remove the snicker's wrapper" bandwagon. where were all of you people when he suggested exactly what many, if not most, of you have stated in this thread: clear out the trash, put a couple new things to give the cache-owner a little hand, leave the cache a little nicer than you found it? he was drawn and quartered for suggesting an anarchy and revolt of epic proportions, one that would subvert the foundations of the game ...hmmm...just as the OP was here. maybe there should be a little more decaf around here or sumptin'... :D

eta: quote

Edited by denali7
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i know spiff's ears must have been burning when he posted here--his thread was the first thing that came to my mind, too.  he ended up with new orifices when he suggested leaving caches in better shape than when found, but now, in a lightening-fast 180 of public opinion, he should get a royalty fee from everyone who's on the previously blacklisted "remove the snicker's wrapper" bandwagon.

Yea... I admit, I was stupid. I should have given up much earlier on that.

 

I admitted to being a newbie, and it gets condescending rapidly because, I think, people automatically, and perhaps unconsiously, assume that someone with less experience can not possibly have insight wothy of serious attention.

 

The point is... if even a newbie notices an issue *immediately* upon entering a sport, then I suggest that it could be an indication of a serious problem. ("eh... excuse me... I'm not a vet, but all that blood gushing out of your dog... shouldn't someone plug that hole?)

 

Almost everyone who talked about it shrugged off the cache element of the game, citing what they decided was most important: Essentially, hiking the location (the view, the out of doors, etc.) Of couse, that was the adults. Nobody was speaking for the kids.

 

This sport has yet to pass on its legacy to a new generation. What the kids experience TODAY is CRITICAL to the sport tomorrow.

 

I don't know... maybe not. Maybe more people is NOT what the sport needs... maybe it should be more of a limited group... where a large segment is "turned off" by the experience... so it stays more intimate with a smaller segment of the population.

 

Maybe "hikers" should be it..... and they can hike to coordinates, enjoy the view, and do it all over again, and not be bothered by the Cache in GeoCache.

 

But they should at least give the name back.

Edited by SpiffJr
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as with other outdoor pursuits, geocaching must appeal to kids, or it runs the risk of losing its playing field. programs within the nra, b.a.s.s., and local fish and game divisions, just to name a couple, work very hard to get adults to take the time to take kids hunting or fishing. we don't always want to put down our fishing rods to spend a long day untangling and de-hooking our kids, but those kids are the future license and gear buyers, and more importantly, public-lands decision-makers. in the outdoors is where they'll learn respect and value for the outdoors, whether it's in a kayak, duck blind, or oogling a cache with dear ol' dad/mom/whomever. at the very least, they'll be less likely to throw their soda cans out the car window than somone who grew up with no appreciation of the outdoors. i'm dating myself a bit here, but even if my daughter never holds public office or runs a big corporation, at least i know she won't ever make the indian cry!

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Ahhh Shucks!!!  Guys . . . where has the joy gone. It's all about fun, not rules. NO one is being robbed that follows a TNLNSL since the cache is left intact, as it was found.

Actually, and I hope I'm not repeating a previous obsevation to your post...

 

That is not true.

 

Every TNLNSL, disturbs the cache. People go through it, even if only to get at the log. Many will handle it. It will be dropped in the dirt. It will be broken. It will be rained on. The seal on the cache container is exercised, and will eventually leak and fail.

 

No. TNLNSL does affect cache. Always in a bad way.

 

Only high trade ratio to TNLNSL can mitigate the damage done by it.

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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Okey-doke. So moving a trade item from one wilderness cache to another (a common phenomenon in trading) prevents trinket-rot? The trinkets emerge into the sunlight, blink and take a deep breath of fresh air and are restored, ready to be plunged into the mildewy darkness of another cache?

 

No... obviously not... (well, maybe with mold...)

 

But this is subtle... but very very important, and it is very much akin to "refreshing" the item.

 

As cache deteriorates, the value (we shall presume) goes down. What needs to be "refreshed" is the percieved "value" of the items. You can't make the item be worth what it *was*, but we can *update* the "sticker price" to reflect the damage that has been done to it.

 

This bit of magic is done in the "trade".

 

The item that it will adequately trade with will have changed downward with the value of the item. This means that it can not "displace" (or trade for) many of the items that it used to!

 

SO...

 

Trading UP becomes more and more difficult for the item, and it LEAVES NICER THINGS THAN IT WOULD HAVE as it moves from cache to cache.

 

But to get those nicer things... one has to introduce OTHER, "fresher" items to be used instead... introducing FRESH cache into the system.

 

But what it also does is something unique: as it gets closer to the bottom of it's useable value... all it can do is knock out the lowest value items out of a cache!

 

The things that are no longer able to be used for trade then disappear from the system (or become ghetto cache in the bottom of an ammo box due to a TNLSSL and not be traded again... and needs a cache angel or an owner to clear it)

 

It's a "circle of life kind of thing".

 

So... at each trade... it is in some sense, a different thing than it was in the trade before.

 

What it refreshed is the current value for trade... and the effects of this are interesting indeed.

 

Spiff

Edited by SpiffJr
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Ahhh Shucks!!!  Guys . . . where has the joy gone. It's all about fun, not rules. NO one is being robbed that follows a TNLNSL since the cache is left intact, as it was found. 

 

I agree.

 

Actually, and I hope I'm not repeating a previous obsevation to your post...

 

That is not true.

 

Every TNLNSL, disturbs the cache. People go through it, even if only to get at the log. Many will handle it.

 

No. TNLNSL does affect cache. Always in a bad way.

 

Spiff

 

Here is where I disagree with you Spiff.

 

When I TNSL, I don't dig through the toys and dump everything on the ground, just to find the logbook. I may make a once over check for travel bugs, but that is it.

 

Everytime anyone finds a cache with trade items, the cache gets disturbed. If anything, cache traders who look at everything, in the cache disturb the items more than I do. I have found 301 actual caches (both micro and traditional caches), so I do have some experience at geocaching. I take pride in leaving caches better than I find them. I always remove trash or innappropriate items, even when not trading.

 

It will be dropped in the dirt.

 

It will be broken.

 

It will be rained on.

 

The seal on the cache container is exercised, and will eventually leak and fail.

 

With this negative mentality, the best way to preserve cache contents is not let the cache be found by anyone.

 

I found my share of broken/ worn out containers, and I promptly make a note to the owner to fix them. If I have supplies, I'll repair them in the field.

 

Keep in mind that all finders of a caches hidden in a flimsy container (cheap plasticware comes to mind), contribute to the degradation of a cache.

 

Only high trade ratio to TNLNSL can mitigate the damage done by it.

 

You will see firsthand when you hide caches, that all cache trades items will eventually degrade when trading is frequent. Even my hardest cache to date Out Foxedhas degraded slightly. Some joker put a used golf ball in my cache, and it has only been found by 6 people.

Edited by Kit Fox
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Thanks, Kit Fox! You've set me up perfectly for my reply to the above.

 

Listen, Spiff et al, you have to consider what your purpose is in discussing the supposed damaging effects of TNLNSL. Are you talking to people who already agree with you, or are you trying to persuade others to trade?

 

If it's the first, you're doing fine. But if you are trying to promote trading, you're wrong. A big part of the problem is the apparent premise. People who don't trade are not lazy or selfish, they just don't get the same thrill out of trinket-trading that some others do. Calling them 'selfish' is in particular an odd argument, because it requires this line of thinking: "If you are not contributing to my enjoyment of this game, you are selfish. It does not matter what your preferred style is, you should play by my preference. So you should discard your preference, because doing so is your moral obligation (i.e., to serve me)."

 

Worse than being illogical, it's unpersuasive. For the TNLNSLites-are-bad-people argument to work, TNLNSLites would have to accept that they are bad people. How likely is that? Then to support this argument with weak stuff like incremental hinge/seal-wear or stale-cache odor--well it has the opposite of the intended effect.

 

I'm interested in this thread because I see this kind of counterproductive argumentation all the time. If you're venting steam, OK. But if you're trying to persuade someone, you're on the wrong track.

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Everybody that 'TNLNSL' probably has their own, valid reason for it. When I first started, I traded stuff. Then I decided to leave books, so I'd carry books in ziplock bags around in my car and carry them to the cache. But I started running into cache after cache after cache that were too small for the books. After this happened 100 times or so, I just gave up and now 'TNLN.' At least until I develop some kind of small sig item...Then I can either trade again or just leave something.

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Mule Ears.

 

Your post has one interesting facet to me... and I think it's worth everyone noting.

 

- It has nothing directly to do with anything in my post. -

 

If read carefully, you will see that it in fact does not address any specific observation or point in my note. Not one. So obviously it does not provide a basis for disagreement with me.

 

It is almost as if the content of my post did not matter.

 

What *is* in your post are

-instructions for things I must consider

-Postulations about what I am "trying to do"

-a summation of some argument I have never had

-how my post point is inadequate in this argument (which I have never had)

-other misc. goofiness.

 

How come no one is ever interested in asking what my positon is on something before they start shoving uncomfortable objects into my rear?

 

My post, that you pretend to be responding to, is mind-numbingly simple.

 

It says that: to say that cache is undisterbed by TNLNSN is a false statement, and proves why this is so.

 

It is NOT a position.

 

It is NOT a statment of who is right, and who is wrong.

 

It is a very specific point about a very limited and specific statement.

 

Why can't someone make even a *minor* frigg'n (and unassailable) observation about a very small thing without people getting totally off track?

 

Look. It's simple.

 

Take and QUOTE MY WORDS and RESPOND DIRECTLY to them if you care to. I have no interest in respond to phantoms of your guesses as to what you think I am trying to do or various possible positions that you believe that I might probably have.

 

Doesn't anybody read what others say anymore?

 

dang people.

 

My point stands, perfectly shiny and new as the day I posted it. It is unassailable.

 

My suggestion, regardless of where you stand on any issue, is to simply AGREE WITH IT. A little, "Gee Spiff... you're right on that one. Good post." wouldn't hurt either.

 

Why do people have to *pretend* to disagree?

 

Dangest thing.

(and it sure kill progress on arriving at mutual understandings)

 

Folks... let's pretend that we know how to agree on something that is easy to agree on:

 

Go back, read my post, then write a little note back that simply says: "You're right, the practice of TNLNSL does not leave cache intact as it was found."

 

Then we will all agree... all be on the same page (with respect to that one small point) and then we can move on to another small point, secure in the knowledge that we all aggree on at least one simple little fact.

 

Spiff

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My son is a cacher and a young man of few words. If there is nothing that interests him he will TNLNSL. You probably won't get much more than that when he logs his find online either. What you need to know is that he enjoys caching and that your hide got him out doing something he likes to do. Everyone is different. That is what makes the world go 'round.

 

Perhaps if you are getting a lot of TNLNSL it is time to do some cache maintenance.

 

Myself, most times if the swag in a cache has nothing appealing I will try and leave something to help upgrade the cache. My husband is generous, if he goes out without me, he will leave several things to try and bring the cache level up.

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TNLNSL or what ever variation is discussed is a dissappointing reaction to the garbage in caches for trade items. Personally, I like to trade, but I have seen the decline in quality of items and frankly, I will be happy to stop trading.

 

The TNLNSL part, the "I am so busy, that I can't even write a log note" part is something that we really need to put our foot down about.

 

This is discussed elsewhere, but cache logs (electronic ones) should have a basic data set to qualify as a find. TNLN or TNLS or TNLNSL or TNLNTFTC just don't make it. Following cachers can't tell if items are still there or not and the owner can't tell if the cache is in good shape or not.

Edited by bigredmed
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--

My suggestion, regardless of where you stand on any issue, is to simply AGREE WITH IT.  A little, "Gee Spiff... you're right on that one.  Good post." wouldn't hurt either.

--

Spiff

Since all you want is someone to agree, no matter if your correct or not, regardless of where you stand on any issue, is to simply AGREE WITH IT.. So here you go I agree, you are a leader of men and we will do well to follow your insight.

 

Now that that is over, I can say that I will continue to hold my own opinion which is different from yours. But I AGREE and GOOD POST..

 

--

 

When I hike for over 6 hours through boulders and cactus to find a capsule that contains just enough paper to put five names on, I will most likely log it with TNLNSL and I might not even put much of an online post because that is what I FEEL like doing.

 

Enjoy the day...

Edited by ShadowAce
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Read Nothing, Left Post.

 

You beat me to it! :D

 

RSRELP

 

(read some, rolled eyes, left post)

 

Perhaps I'll start using this from time to time. :(

 

It doesn't look pretty like TNLNSL though. Not enough alphabetic balance or something........

Edited by carleenp
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Mule Ears.

Your post has one interesting facet to me... and I think it's worth everyone noting.

- It has nothing directly to do with anything in my post. -

 

Kit Fox did a fine job on the point-counterpoint, and I opened my post by saying so. Rather than repeat the same points, I wanted to come at the discussion from a different angle. I made the reasonable assumption that since you believe TNLNSL degrades caches in some subtle ways (which I paraphrased in my reference to hinge/seal wear) that you would like to see greater participation in trading. And I was even cautious to allow for the possibility that you aren't asking for more trading but just letting off steam.

 

Go back, read my post, then write a little note back that simply says: "You're right, the practice of TNLNSL does not leave cache intact as it was found."

 

I read your post. If you are interested in extremely subtle effects, sure, the cache is affected by someone finding it, opening it, signing the logbook without trading, and rehiding it. The effects are not necessarily bad, as cover that was removed by rain or animals may be restored, rust knocked off sticky hinges and latches, rubber seals wiped off, etc. And, importantly, a TNLNSL visit may serve as an inspection, giving the cache owner a heads-up regarding condition. So rather than "intact" as it would be if left unvisited, the cache is better.

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Bottom line is that I felt you were trying to champion trading with statements like --

 

This bit of magic is done in the "trade".

 

The item that it will adequately trade with will have changed downward with the value of the item. This means that it can not "displace" (or trade for) many of the items that it used to!

 

SO...

 

Trading UP becomes more and more difficult for the item, and it LEAVES NICER THINGS THAN IT WOULD HAVE as it moves from cache to cache.

 

But to get those nicer things... one has to introduce OTHER, "fresher" items to be used instead... introducing FRESH cache into the system.

 

But what it also does is something unique: as it gets closer to the bottom of it's useable value... all it can do is knock out the lowest value items out of a cache

 

So, OK, I can agree that good trades (or generous trades) improve the quality of the contents of a cache. It's a much stronger argument than this idea of TNLNSL degrading the cache. My point was that you can persuade TNLNSLites to trade because it's a good/nice thing to do, OR you can alienate them by telling them that their mere presence at the cache degraded it.

 

What's your purpose, to convince more cachers to trade or to make a case that non-traders are doing something bad?

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When a person TNLNSL it robs everyone after them
I love to read the log of someone else that visits a log and tells what they left and finally when I find that cache to actually see the item! It is all part of the experience.
There are many times..I begin to go get a cache, but before I begin, I look around and get something to leave.

You need to go after harder caches. I promise you that if you'll challenge yourself a little more with more difficult terrain and challenging mental caches you will enjoy and remember the trip a whole lot more than the destination. The logs are nice to read but in the end maybe the caches you have hit weren't that amazing to the people you are commenting on. I'm sure they are nice caches but some of the ones I've run get a TNLNSL TFTC. Few and far between get a paragraph. Cache a while and see if your thoughts change. Also I keep a bagf of swag in my work van and my personal truck just in case I go caching that day. I don't just grab something before I go. Not much thought put into a trade item that way is there?

Edited by Clan X-Man
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I mostly sign the phyisical log TNLNSL TFTC. If it's a nice day and I'm in the mood, or the cache is stellar, I'll write a few lines. Otherwise I save it for the on line log. Lets face it how many cache owners go to the cache and read every entry? I enjoy reading the log notifications for my caches and think others will be reading theirs more than the phyisical log too.

 

I find caches, I hide caches. I support the local organizations. How am I hurting the sport again?

 

DITTO! :(

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Here is where I disagree with you Spiff.

 

When I TNSL, I don't dig through the toys and dump everything on the ground, just to find the logbook. I may make a once over check for travel bugs, but that is it.

 

OK... one at a time...

 

The above is simply a statment of what you say you do.

 

Since I have never made any comments about what you do. At all.

There is no disareement.

 

I believe that is what you do. I take your word for it.

 

Doesn't alter, address, or in any intersect with anything I said in that post.

 

Next...

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Everytime anyone finds a cache with trade items, the cache gets disturbed.

 

So, you do agree with my post. The cache is NOT left as it was found.

 

But you just *choose* to arbitrarily call agreement, "disagreement"?

 

For the love of God, why?

 

If anything, cache traders who look at everything, in the cache disturb the items more than I do. I have found 301 actual caches (both micro and traditional caches), so I do have some experience at geocaching. I take pride in leaving caches better than I find them. I always remove trash or innappropriate items, even when not trading.

 

Traders disturb tings more that you. Fine.

 

Now how does that mean that there is no disruption at all?

 

Saddam killed more people than the unibomber, therefore the unibomber killed nobody?

 

Still no logical connection to anything I said in the post.

 

So still no disagreement.

 

(but I AM trying to find it... really I am)

Edited by SpiffJr
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I disagree with the idea that TNSL cachers disturb the cache anymore than traders. Bottom line is that everyone will disturb the cache. The cache is designed to be open and handled. Regardless if the contents are not put in the exact order that they were found, they don't degrade from simply being handled.

 

Crappy, and dirty trade items are often placed into nice caches by careless individuals. This is a simple part of the game. The only possible remedy is for you to observe and guard every cache on the planet to ensure that everyone follows your view as to what is the proper way to play this GAME.

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[

It will be dropped in the dirt.

 

It will be broken.

 

It will be rained on.

 

The seal on the cache container is exercised, and will eventually leak and fail.

 

With this negative mentality, the best way to preserve cache contents is not let the cache be found by anyone.

 

 

This one astounds me.

 

I might just as well have said:

 

- tomorrow will come after today

 

- 4 is greater than 1

 

- air is lighter than rock

 

and have people think that I don't like French film.

(as if the above have more meaning than they do)

 

YET, I know your words have been sincere. Therefore, what to do?

 

 

 

*epiphany*

 

 

 

I have honestly never met more living brain donors in one group of people in my entire life.

 

Honestly.

 

It is not an exaggeration of any kind. And I have met many people in many groups.

 

This is not meant to be a dig. This is not meant as an attack. It is just the apparent reality of the situation.

 

I don't want anyone to change. I respect that you are who you are.

 

It is just true.

 

Not everyone. Not all the time... but the aggregate.

 

I had expectations that were unfair about the group as a whole, and it was my fault for having them. I own my expectations.

 

I was wrong.

 

Some of you are no doubt astoundingly thoughtful and capable.

 

But right here, right now, the concept that things will get wet when held out in the rain has stumped one too many persons.

 

Enjoy the sport. As will I.

 

Just not here.

 

I am so very sorry.

 

Farewell.

 

(I know many will say "good riddance", and that is fair. I understand.)

Edited by SpiffJr
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