Tnlnsl A Rante!

[+Markwell]

My log book entries are always pretty much the same.

 

Markwell

((Date/Time))

((Insert poorly drawn smiley face))

 

My online logs will be a much more verbose and (hopefully) eloquent response to the cache. I don't write as well on-the-fly, so I'd like to save my comments for while I'm sitting with my laptop with a fireplace nearby.

 

As far as trading: who cares? If someone doesn't trade, they are neither enhancing nor exacerbating the cache. It is keeping the cache status quo. If I take my kids along, I like to trade with them. That's what they enjoy. I have rarely seen anything lately in a cache that would push me over the edge to want to trade if I were alone on the trail, but you never know.

 

And sometimes - just sometimes (as others have mentioned) - TNLNSL is a "code" for "this isn't the highest quality cache around."

[+southdeltan]

If the only thing somebody writes in an online log is TNLNSL that's either a sign of laziness, bad typing/grammar/writing skills, or an unenjoyable cache experience (I'm hesitant to use the word lame. ).

 

Like Markewell, I typically only sign my name and date in logbooks (regular and micro). I try to write good online logs. My handwriting is terrible, I'm usually in a hurry to rehide the cache to avoid compromise and get on to the next cache, and I write better when I have time to think.

 

Normally I try to write good logs. There have been an exception or two when I probably should have waited - and there's always the odd "lame" cache - but I try to write a good online log.

 

That being said, I always (even if I wrote 5 or 6 or more paragraphs) end with TNLNSL because that's what I did (I don't trade, it's pointless in my opinion - I'm after the hunt, not the cheap crap in the container).

 

There's a difference between writing a log and closing with TNLNSL and just writing TNLNSL.

 

Back to the original point - many caches I find don't have any trade items in them. I can't recall ever finding any trade items in a micro, although in other areas this occurs. I even know a guy who hides .50 cal ammo cans that are pretty much empty except for a logbook.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP's views on this change slightly after a few hundred more finds and many more months of geocaching.

 

sd

[+briansnat]

Sometimes there is nothing but wet, rusty junk in the cache and the cache container is such a piece of garbage that anything I put in will be soaked and ruined immediately. In those cases I TNLNSL.

 

Sometimes I forget my trade items. In those cases I TNLNSL.

[+leatherman]

My rolling bill board.

[+Renegade Knight]

Read Nothing, Left Post.

[+Kai Team]

I may not be a hardcore geocacher.  I enjoy geocaching, especially in a new area it fullfills a need to explore and get outside.

 

Hmm...sounds like you understand that geocaching is more than trading, but the rest of your post belies that.

 

When a person TNLNSL it robs everyone after them.. 

Only if the person TSLN or trades DOWN (takes something nice and leaves junk). TNLN is neutral to the people after them, who find the same thing as the person who TNLN.

 

There are many times..I begin to go get a cache, but before I begin, I look around and get something to leave.

This doesn't sound very thoughtful - Hope whatever you happen to have laying around that you don't want is something someone else would want, lest you be accused of robbing the people after you (trading down).

 

Geocache was made on a premise.  Find the cache ...Take something...Leave something....Log your visit.

Not true, as others have pointed out.

 

In my opinion, anything else is just plain laziness.  We are becoming a nation of lazy, shortcut people.  We need to put some effort into to this.  IMO People that just TNLNSL  just do not want to go through any hassle of preparing or just taking a little time or effort. The only exception is micro cache, where the very nature of the containers prohibit any trading..

That's kind of you. Another set of unfounded assumptions that suggests you don't have much respect for anyone who thinks differently than you.

 

I am sorry...When I see TNLNSL in a log...I just think 

Too bad that you let a trivial thing like that ruin the experience for you.

 

I wonder is anyone else feels the same.

Not very many, judging by the posts in this thread.

 

As someone once said, the only way to fail at geocaching is to fail to enjoy yourself. Ligthen up - you'll live longer.

[+soreyes]

I think this is another one of those cases where the number of finds a person has pertains to the discussion. 19 finds. So, you have bought 19 trinkets and traded for 19 trinkets. I'm sure from the initial post the OP isn't counting rusty bottle caps and broken McToy as trading (are they?); they are talking about reasonable decent stuff. That's historically been defined as worth at least $1. I'd hope after a rant like the first post, they arent the type to take a maglite and leave a 25 cent plastic ring. So that's almost $20 so far. Are you going to do that 100 more times? 1000 more times? 5000 more times? I don't know about anyone else, but if I wanted that many dollar store items on my shelf, I'd open up a dollar store!

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value. Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item. So on and so forth.

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close. I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

[+Team Perks]

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value. Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item. So on and so forth.

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close. I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

So shuttling $1 items between caches enhances the game?

[+soreyes]

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value.  Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item.  So on and so forth. 

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close.  I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

So shuttling $1 items between caches enhances the game?

No, spending the dollar for the first item enhances the game

[+JackCacheNC]

TNLNSL

Edited December 18, 2004 by jackcacheNC

[+Mopar]

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value.  Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item.  So on and so forth. 

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close.  I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

So shuttling $1 items between caches enhances the game?

No, spending the dollar for the first item enhances the game

Well, first off, if you start with one 1$ item, and never trade down, it isn't long at all before your one trade item is worth about 5 cents. Are you saying that continually trading down enhances the cache?

Btw, I noticed between the "mine", "hers", and "ours" caches, we've got 38 hides, and I assure you most cost us a lot more then $1.

Edited December 18, 2004 by Mopar

[+wimseyguy]

When a person TNLNSL it robs everyone after them

How so? If I leave the cache in the same or better condition than I found it, and pick up some trash on the way out how have I diminished your experience?

I love to read the log of someone else that visits a log and tells what they left and finally when I find that cache to actually see the item! It is all part of the experience.

I too like to read the experiences of the cachers who have found the cache before me. But I don't really care about the swag that's been there and is now gone. That's great if you are there the week after I leave something nice. But what about two years later? Can't you just be happy reading about the 20 deer or circling redtail hawks I saw and wrote about?

There are many times..I begin to go get a cache, but before I begin, I look around and get something to leave.

Gee thanks for offering me your household junk. But no thanks. I've seen enough of that in too many caches to expect there to be anything I care to possess. But just in case I usually do have something tradeworthy in my pocket or pack. Once I saw something so nice that I didn't have anything to trade fairly so I left it there.

Geocache was made on a premise. Find the cache ...Take something...Leave something....Log your visit.

And for most of us the the adventure of finding the cache has become the point, not the swag in the container.

In my opinion, anything else is just plain laziness.

And you are entitled to that opinion, although from reading this thread it does seem to be the minority one. Happy Trails!

[+LthrWrk]

TNLNSL I do that more often than I would like.

 

I do have signature items I take with me on nearly all caches. Some of the small/micro caches there is absolutely no room to leave one. Sooo.. it is a TNLNSL.

 

Many of these caches it is the "place' that works for me. A cache that takes me to a location I usually did not know about.. has a spectacular view. Sometimes it is the journey.. I dont go for the number game.

 

Sometimes there are nice treasures in caches.. sometimes... well simply seems like it should be emptied and restocked.

 

If there is room though.. it is often TN L-sig item SL

[Ted's Trekkers]

We ALWAYS take something/leave something. It is part of the lure - in addition to hike,scenery, history,etc - of each and every particular cache. I try to teach my daughters that a lot of life is how you look at things. The small,broken plastic skunk with no arms was the main character in our made-up stories on the way home in the car. The rubber ducky that was a little cracked an faced got us allsinging that Sesame Street Ernie song. In other words - the item itself does not have to be grand or expensive - but part of that particular cache experience. We hope what we leave will also be enjoyed in some fashion by others.

[+mozartman]

traders who take fairness and trading really, really, seriously are always going to be upset, in my opinion, with this pastime. there just aren't enough of YOU out there! and that is a good or bad thing, depending on who you are, or what your reaction is to the geotrade-injustice issue....

 

maybe there should be a game called geoTRADING, then you guys could trade and swap and everything would be peachy. But even then, I still think traders would be having these conversations and arguments!

 

because for you, and many others, an essential part of the whole experience is the cache contents... and for so many others, the essential part of the experience is everything but the cache contents. Many others are in between or have other priorities.

 

I dunno, maybe we should all cut each other a little slack!

 

[+TotemLake]

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value.  Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item.  So on and so forth. 

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close.  I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

So shuttling $1 items between caches enhances the game?

Actually, it's more like a physical breadcrumb if you do it right. I did it for several months before I tired of that variant. I'd carry the item I pulled from one cache and put it in the next cache, trading for an item out of that one to take to the next one I found. It does add a different level to a game when you're not really interested in keeping the items to begin with.

[+The Jester]

Let me start by saying I agree with the OP. And seeing the length of some of the disagreeing post, let me express my opinion in length.

 

I am not anywhere close to a newbie - started in April of 2001 and have over 700 finds - and I almost always trade. This has not changed from the beginning, "several hundred finds" has not made a difference in my trading (well, to be truthful, I think I leave better stuff now). The times I don't were exceptions to the rule - time constraints, weather, grumpiness and such.

 

Mopar and others: Where does it say that what you trade for you have to keep? A lot of my trades are with things I picked up in other caches, but every once in a while I do find something I want to keep - milestone memories, useful swag or something appealing.

 

And for those smug posters (at least that how it came across) that mentioned the theme "micro's don't have trade items so I had to TNLN" - re-read the first post:

The only exception is micro cache, where the very nature of the containers prohibit any trading.

He's already admitted that micro's don't have trade items - by default everyone did TNLNSL. Which is a ridiculous thing to do - posting a TNLNSL - on a cache you CAN'T trade at (I've seen several cache hiders of micro's complain about this).

 

Now (here I differ slightly from the OP) I don't mind that others don't trade - but just writing TNLNSL in the logbook (the SL seems silly to me, as that is obiously what you are doing when writing this) does 'rob' others, in that you ovbiouly don't care enough to share anything with those coming after you. Part of the enjoyment is sitting by the cache and reading the logbook. When all I could get were the last five logs on my PDA there wasn't much to read, so the logbook fills in the story of the cache.

 

As for all of you who stated the OP used junk from his house to trade, using the

but before I begin, I look around and get something to leave.

as proof, let me say that I also "look around and get something to leave" - at the hardware store, at the dollar store, at REI. Don't attack him for something you THINK he did without proof - never said where he looked around. If you're offended by his opinion, you have chosen to be - no need to lash out in an unsupported attack.

 

I did find it interesting that some of the more strongly opposing viewpoints used the cry "Let me play the game my way" and then gave lists of reasons why we should play his way. Too funny!

 

Btw, I noticed between the "mine", "hers", and "ours" caches, we've got 38 hides, and I assure you most cost us a lot more then $1.

Hmm, what does the cost of stocking a cache have to with the cost of trade items carried? Yes, creating a trading cache does take an investment - but should that be a reason for not trading? It really has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

 

QUOTE 

When a person TNLNSL it robs everyone after them

 

How so? If I leave the cache in the same or better condition than I found it, and pick up some trash on the way out how have I diminished your experience? 

If you didn't trade, how did you leave the cache in "better condition"? Only by trading up will the caches 'improve'. Cleaning trash helps the area but not the cache.

 

The other thing I find interesting is the "I don't trade because it all junk, but will take TB's" line. So taking a "piece of junk" and sticking a dog tag on it now makes it 'not junk'? How does a dog tag make moving a small stuffed animal (for example) from cache to cache different from moving the same thing by trading? Yeah, I know, someone spent money for the dog tag, BUT it's still the same "piece of junk" it was before it became a TB. (Hmm, maybe I should start making all those golf balls into TB's. Than people would like them!)

 

Sorry if the post seemed to ramble from idea to idea, but it's kind of late right now. Another 2.5 cents (inflation).

[+BlueDeuce]

Theoretically you only need to spend $1:

 

Buy an item that costs $1 and trade it for an item tht appears to have equal value.  Bring that item to the next cache and trade it for another item.  So on and so forth. 

 

I know it doesn't work out perfectly that way, but its pretty close.  I certainly have not had to spend $123 to visit 123 caches.

So shuttling $1 items between caches enhances the game?

Actually, it's more like a physical breadcrumb if you do it right. I did it for several months before I tired of that variant. I'd carry the item I pulled from one cache and put it in the next cache, trading for an item out of that one to take to the next one I found. It does add a different level to a game when you're not really interested in keeping the items to begin with.

And the Travel Bug was born! (Dramtic music)

 

[+G'n,G]

I usually trade something, but I TNLN If the following occurs:

• I forget my trade item(s)
  
• My trade item isn't good enough for the other stuff in the cache
  
• My trade item is too big
  
• Or the stuff in the cache isn't something that I'd want around in my house
  

[+XRN95]

I don't cache for whats inside the container, to be honest I really dont care whats inside. I am happy with a log book. I dont grab my pack, drive to a mountain and hike 10km for a trinket. I rarely trade and my practise will not change. I am there for the journey and the find. The thrill for me is actually getting there and holding the cache in my hands. Its not that I dont like the idea of trading, I think its great, but its not what geocaching means to me. I would rather find a container with just a log book in a great location than a super stocked cache in a poor location anyday!!

[+fly46]

Sure, you could just easily say TNLNSL, but which log would you rather see?

TNLNSL ..... and even if it is a *crappy micro* the log would not hold all what you wrote! If you want to know their experience, email them and ask them. Or read their online log which generally tends to be a litle more in depth.

They're not talking about what's in the log book itself.. You're not going to put SL in the log you're signing.

[+Phonedave]

If I am with my kids I will trade.

 

If I am by myself and there is something that appeals to me, I will trade.

 

If the cache is full of damp band-aids and McToys, I very often TNLNSL, but sometimes I TNLSSL - it depends on the cache (and the phase of the moon)

 

However, for me, the enjoyment is in the logs. I like to sit and read what other people have written. Thats what interests me. But I do not get upset if somebody writes "found" and thats it. Its how you want to play the game. Me, I put the date, time, weather condition, and some little story about the search/find.

 

-dave

[+sawdust]

[quote

 

I know I am sounding like a jerk...

That is the only point you made that I'll agree with. I took a look at your stats, I really do not think your VAST experience gives you too much of a platform to speak from. JMHO

[PC Medic]

I may not be a hardcore geocacher. I enjoy geocaching, especially in a new area it fullfills a need to explore and get outside.

 

But one thing I DO NOT understand:

 

TNLNSL.

 

I have seen the posts:

 

I do TNLNSL because I don't won't to carry anything (travel Light)

Give me a break....How much weight is just carrying fingernail clipper or some other simple object.

 

Second reason I heard: I don't have kids I don't need another cheap toy or gadget.

News Flash!!... NONE OF NEED THESE THINGS...

 

When a person TNLNSL it robs everyone after them.. I love to read the log of someone else that visits a log and tells what they left and finally when I find that cache to actually see the item! It is all part of the experience.

There is also the reason that some are in it for the challenge of the hunt, not to trade trinkets.

 

As long as it is not TSLNSL then I hardly think they "robbed everyone after them".

[PC Medic]

We will often TNLNSL, but *try* to write a log that describes our adventure. I am sorry if it gripes you that we choose not to trade very often, but it gripes me when others try to dictate how we should play the game.

 

Sorry just had to get that off my chest.

I am not trying to "Dictate" how to play the game.

 

This Quote is taken from the FAQ from Geocaching.com

http://www.geocaching.com/faq/

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I am saying there is a way the game "Should" be played.

Doesn't get any plainer than that.

 

If people decide to do thing different, of course it is their choice.

However, it is not "Geocaching"

 

Well as pointed out in another thread, according to Dave Ulmer (Who did after all invent the game) there were only two 'rules' if we must call them that. They were

If you take something

Leave something

 

(Actually I think that is only ONE rule)

 

No mention of logging it at all. Just because it does not follow true to how you think it should be done or even what the GC.com FAQ has to say is hardly cause to say it is not Geocaching. What it doesn't get any plainer than is that if you have a GEOgraphical location and you place a CACHE there it is a GEO-CACHE. The game has taken many twists and variations over the years, some folks like some variations that others do not, does not mean it is not Geocaching.

Edited December 18, 2004 by PC Medic

[+leatherman]

Well as pointed out in another thread, according to Dave Ulmer (Who did after all invent the game) there were only two 'rules' if we must call them that. They were

Take Something

Leave Something

I'm pretty sure it was....

 

IF you take something

Leave something.

 

Not being picky though.

[+zygote2k]

Tell me somethin'..... Why ya care?

[PC Medic]

Well as pointed out in another thread, according to Dave Ulmer (Who did after all invent the game) there were only two 'rules' if we must call them that. They were

Take Something

Leave Something

I'm pretty sure it was....

 

IF you take something

Leave something.

 

Not being picky though.

You are correct. What a difference a two letter word can make.

[+The_Techno_Team]

Ok...I now understand. I just needed hear the other cachers views.

 

After reading all the posts...I realize I was being petty about TNLNSL.

 

As long as the cache is the same or better than when you left it, then that is responsible caching.

 

Again, I thank everyone for helping me understand another way to look at it.

 

Cache ON!

[+TheCallanCrew]

We have 3 kids and 139 finds and know both newbies and the 1000+ veterans of the game. The essence of the game is the journey not the destination. I recall an experience of hunting one of WE4NCS's micros with my (6 year old at the time) eldest son that puts this topic in perspective.

 

It was our second time out on this particular micro and we had been at it about 40 minutes (typical for WE4NCS's micros) when two teenagers happened by to ask us what we were up to on the ravine. We explained that we were geocaching (modern day treasure hunting) and were currently seeking a cache. They got interested and asked what types of treasure we find. I said that it was less about the treasure than about the experience of seeking and finding something hidden. Although, Addison, my son, said that it is always great fun to explore the items that one finds in a cache. They asked if we got to keep the treasure. We replied that for each item that we take that we must leave an item behind. The teenagers found this a bit "raw" until we pointed out that by doing so it keeps the treasure constantly renewed. And, we never knew who might be the next finder of the treasure.

 

They wandered off as did my thoughts. It is true that the kids like the treasures and it is a rare veteran that likes swapping trinkets. Although we have taken and left our fair share of McD toys we have also purchased many unique toys in large quantities to initially stock in our caches as well as to trade. We also purchase travel bugs, geocoins and a fair number of geocaching collector's buttons and patches to trade as well. Additionally, we leave executive audio tapes, inspirational quotation and story books and desktop sculptures for the adults.

 

I, as the patriarch and head cacher, try to stock a cache to be interesting for adults and for children. I believe that the cache hider reads the online logs (we try to hide 10% of the number of caches that we find) and enjoys the joy and frustrations other gamers have with their caches. So, signing the log is a courtesy that should be taken seriously.

 

TNLNSL is part of the game that we have come to expect from veterans, but we are dissappointed when we see that in a cache that is full of interesting items. The $1 being bandied about is nonsense. Spend what you can afford and wish to contribute. Try to leave behind something interesting. If it is a McD toy, make it an interesting one, not a lame, broken one. Leave items in good condition. Hit a Dollar Store and spend a few bucks. Drop by a flea market and pick up some interesting items. I never keep track of what we spend, it is a hobby and we spend what we can afford, but often it is above $1.

 

As to McD toys. Kids like them. So what if they come with meals? Your kid went to Burger King and got a toy that mine has never seen. My kids got something from their grandmother that they played with for a while and want to trade for your BK toy. So what is the harm?

 

I have a book of stories or quotes that you might find interesting and inspirational, so I leave it. You have an old Army patch that I might collect (I don't but you get the idea). The point is that you never know who will find the cache after you, make it worthwhile.

 

As to collectibles...they are the nifty part of the game. I will never forget going to our first geocaching event (WE4NCS's 1000th find) and meeting a geocacher that had collected pins, buttons and namesakes from cachers all over the world. It was amazing. It was impressive. It made us realize what a global community that geocaching creates.

 

So, you are jaded, do not have room for junk and live for the large numbers...slow down, take time on the logs, keep a backpack for geocaching filled with trade items. Think about those that follow. There will always be others with more finds and less finds. It is their journey, not yours. Help make their's enjoyable and hope that they do the same for your's.

 

The Callan Crew Patriarch

[+Shop99er]

I usually TNLNSL. Why? Cuz this is, at least to me, about the hunt and the find. Not the loot.

[+NightPilot]

Which would you prefer? That people find your cache and write TNSNSL, or that nobody bothered with your cache? At least they took the trouble to find it and write that much. Face it, most of the caches I see aren't that exciting.

[+TheCallanCrew]

Which would you prefer?  That people find your cache and write TNSNSL, or that nobody bothered with your cache?  At least they took the trouble to find it and write that much.  Face it, most of the caches I see aren't that exciting.

Personally, since we are dealing with preferences here , I would prefer that people be less selfish about what they want and more considerate of other cachers that follow them . So, for caches with interesting and varied items, my preference is that the jaded TNSNSL crowd not bother seeking them . But, that is a preference.

 

The second question, as posed, is about people visiting or not visiting on the basis of their log/trade behavior. People who actively play the will visit a cache near them with an interesting description regardless of their log/trade behavior. So people will visit caches anyway .

 

Others will do what they will. You cannot police log/trade behavior, nor does anyone have the time to try. The important thing to get is that caches and their content should evolve over time. In this way they remain fresh. And, most of us know that over time the stuff in a cache begins to smell like the cache surrounds (many in not the most aromatic locales, if you know what I mean ). So, be a pal and add some items if you want none or switch those that you like. Heck, use the trinkets like untracked travel bugs and move them around if you like.

 

Most people can find something to contribute to a cache other than TNLNSL . True TNLNSL leaves no impact...but leaving no impact is a selfish act when we are speaking of keeping a cache active, interesting and alive. NOTE: Leaving no impact on the environment and cache site is a considerate act. Thus, leave a setting as you found it, but keep the game itself dynamic. TNLNSL is about "me me me" rather than about those that follow (others others others).

 

To the topic of caches that are not exciting... Recall that it is about the journey rather than the destination. Life itself has its slow and fast moments. Not every moment is exciting. If you rarely find exciting caches...create an exciting cache . It may surprise you to know that people are not all the same and that what you find exceedingly dull another may find exciting and visa verse.

 

Also, if you find a cache less than stellar, then send a private message to the cache creator(s) and let them know how it might be improved . Not all feedback need be public or logged . Sometimes, looking around a cache site for a less obvious hide and providing this info would improve the same cache for others that follow.

 

Cheers,

The Callan Crew Patriarch

[+TotemLake]

Which would you prefer?  That people find your cache and write TNSNSL, or that nobody bothered with your cache?  At least they took the trouble to find it and write that much.  Face it, most of the caches I see aren't that exciting.

Personally, since we are dealing with preferences here , I would prefer that people be less selfish about what they want and more considerate of other cachers that follow them . So, for caches with interesting and varied items, my preference is that the jaded TNSNSL crowd not bother seeking them . But, that is a preference.

Understanding you're merely making points, allow me to expand:

 

For me with a many times stated statement, that it is the destination for me that is the meat of the hike, and the cache is the gravy on that meat, you want me to forgo the gravy to satisfy you? Bah. You just imposed your preferences over mine. I don't think I can appreciate that and I know I can't appreciate the fact someone thinks they can dictate to me how I can have fun. Also, how in the heck can anyone tell what is in the cache that will be interesting to the person that follows them until that follower arrived at that destination and located the cache??? Enquiring minds want to know. My crystal ball is broken and I have failed on may times to read people's minds and foretell the future.

 

The second question, as posed, is about people visiting or not visiting on the basis of their log/trade behavior. People who actively play the will visit a cache near them with an interesting description regardless of their log/trade behavior. So people will visit caches anyway  .

 

Agreed. That's the way I play and will continue to do so.

 

Most people can find something to contribute to a cache other than TNLNSL  . True TNLNSL leaves no impact...but leaving no impact is a selfish act when we are speaking of keeping a cache active, interesting and alive.  NOTE: Leaving no impact on the environment and cache site is a considerate act.  Thus, leave a setting as you found it, but keep the game itself dynamic. TNLNSL is about "me me me" rather than about those that follow (others others others).

 

Ah but taking trinkets is also about "me me me". So who here is being selfish? The person that leaves behind the trinkets for someone else to enjoy or the person that takes the trinket so nobody else can enjoy it? The impact is merely mental. Why the anguish over how somebody else plays it? It's the log that keeps the cache dynamic and active. Not the trinkets themselves. It's called having fun and allowing others to have fun as they will. I think most of you who are capable of remembering, this came from the 60's... Live and let live.

 

To the topic of caches that are not exciting... Recall that it is about the journey rather than the destination. Life itself has its slow and fast moments. Not every moment is exciting. If you rarely find exciting caches...create an exciting cache  . It may surprise you to know that people are not all the same and that what you find exceedingly dull another may find exciting and visa verse.

 

Agreed. Yet again, someone is going to define to me what is exciting and fun and what is not? Yah... I'll agree with you that it was that with you... will you agree that I may have a differing opinion and that's the way I choose to have fun?

 

Not all feedback need be public or logged...

 

Or flogged.

 

Thanks... you made good points... I hope I helped expand on them.

 

The bottom line is you will start failing to have fun when you start to push your preferences on how others can have fun. Why do that to yourself?

[+ShadowAce]

Just a quick note to add a vote to the 'Lighten up' version of the replies...

 

I trade if there is something worth trading for. I will take the candy wrappers and actually leave somthing if that is all that is in the cache. But That guy that is leaving cow bones as a trade item is not doing a whole heck to improve the caches.. Maybe you should say TN LN SL is much better then 'I took the nice watch, dropped in two cow vertibrates.. Thanks'

 

Or is it me? Is that better because they traded? Least my TN LN SL was followed with a 6 paragraph online log about the adventure in the hunt.

[+larsl]

I never trade (except for taking or leaving travel bugs), I often write very short logs, and I don't feel guilty at all.

Edited December 19, 2004 by larsl

[+TheCallanCrew]

you want me to forgo the gravy to satisfy you? Bah. You just imposed your preferences over mine. I don't think I can appreciate that and I know I can't appreciate the fact someone thinks they can dictate to me how I can have fun.

 

Ah but taking trinkets is also about "me me me". So who here is being selfish? The person that leaves behind the trinkets for someone else to enjoy or the person that takes the trinket so nobody else can enjoy it? The impact is merely mental.

Not all feedback need be public or logged...

 

Or flogged.

 

Thanks... you made good points... I hope I helped expand on them.

 

The bottom line is you will start failing to have fun when you start to push your preferences on how others can have fun. Why do that to yourself?

Well now, you seem to be the one presuming . First, I do not wish you to forgo gravy at all. If you want to hike, then hike...just hike. Second, if you cannot "get" the ideas in the post then one seems hard pressed to see how you could "appreciate" the salient ideas in the post. Your post indicated that you missed several.

 

No one is dictating . All are opining. Forums are for opinions . You have one...your signature presumes that people are failing to have fun. How preposterous and presumptuous? It, too, is but an opinion .

 

Take something, leave something is pretty clear. It is about trade, swap and keeping contents rotating. Take something without leaving something was not part of our topic. (How you made it such escapes us all. ) Such behavior is not in keeping with the rules, but I am certain that it does occur. It is selfish when it does.

 

You did expand on the points I had made, but I cannot say that the expansion was much on course with the original topic of TNLNSL. However, the rhetoric did keep the ball bouncing as it were.

 

As to pushing preferences. I realize that people will do as they will. You will. My preferences have nothing to do with it . You can continue to TNLNSL and I shall continue to feel it selfish . I can continue to take something and leave something or simply leave something and you can feel it selfish . Your opinion of my way of playing in no way diminishes my fun. One can only hope that you will continue to have fun regardless of what others think of TNLNSL.

 

Lastly, you presume that I and others fail to have fun which is preposterous . You also presume that we are "doing something to ourselves" which is equally as nuts . It is no wonder that you have a lunatic in your head. Let the lunatic out for a while and just "be." It would be a 60s act that you could appreciate. Perhaps you might notice that merely living is an act of success and that fun is also part of this thing we call life .

[+leatherman]

Well now, you seem to be the one presuming . First, I do not wish you to forgo gravy at all. If you want to hike, then hike...just hike. Second, if you cannot "get" the ideas in the post then one seems hard pressed to see how you could "appreciate" the salient ideas in the post. Your post indicated that you missed several.

 

No one is dictating . All are opining. Forums are for opinions . You have one...your signature presumes that people are failing to have fun. How preposterous and presumptuous? It, too, is but an opinion .

 

Take something, leave something is pretty clear. It is about trade, swap and keeping contents rotating. Take something without leaving something was not part of our topic. (How you made it such escapes us all. ) Such behavior is not in keeping with the rules, but I am certain that it does occur. It is selfish when it does.

 

You did expand on the points I had made, but I cannot say that the expansion was much on course with the original topic of TNLNSL. However, the rhetoric did keep the ball bouncing as it were.

 

As to pushing preferences. I realize that people will do as they will. You will. My preferences have nothing to do with it . You can continue to TNLNSL and I shall continue to feel it selfish . I can continue to take something and leave something or simply leave something and you can feel it selfish . Your opinion of my way of playing in no way diminishes my fun. One can only hope that you will continue to have fun regardless of what others think of TNLNSL.

 

Lastly, you presume that I and others fail to have fun which is preposterous . You also presume that we are "doing something to ourselves" which is equally as nuts . It is no wonder that you have a lunatic in your head. Let the lunatic out for a while and just "be." It would be a 60s act that you could appreciate. Perhaps you might notice that merely living is an act of success and that fun is also part of this thing we call life .

[+TotemLake]

Well now, you seem to be the one presuming  . First, I do not wish you to forgo gravy at all. If you want to hike, then hike...just hike. Second, if you cannot "get" the ideas in the post then one seems hard pressed to see how you could "appreciate" the salient ideas in the post. Your post indicated that you missed several.

 

No one is dictating  . All are opining. Forums are for opinions  . You have one...your signature presumes that people are failing to have fun. How preposterous and presumptuous? It, too, is but an opinion  .

 

Take something, leave something is pretty clear. It is about trade, swap and keeping contents rotating. Take something without leaving something was not part of our topic. (How you made it such escapes us all.  ) Such behavior is not in keeping with the rules, but I am certain that it does occur. It is selfish when it does.

 

You did expand on the points I had made, but I cannot say that the expansion was much on course with the original topic of TNLNSL. However, the rhetoric did keep the ball bouncing as it were.

 

As to pushing preferences. I realize that people will do as they will. You will. My preferences have nothing to do with it  . You can continue to TNLNSL and I shall continue to feel it selfish  . I can continue to take something and leave something or simply leave something and you can feel it selfish  . Your opinion of my way of playing in no way diminishes my fun. One can only hope that you will continue to have fun regardless of what others think of TNLNSL.

 

Lastly, you presume that I and others fail to have fun which is preposterous  . You also presume that we are "doing something to ourselves" which is equally as nuts  . It is no wonder that you have a lunatic in your head. Let the lunatic out for a while and just "be." It would be a 60s act that you could appreciate. Perhaps you might notice that merely living is an act of success and that fun is also part of this thing we call life  .

Well you certainly missed it didn't you?

 

You might want to re-read what I posted. I merely expanded upon that which you postulated without pointing fingers at you or anyone in particular.

 

I made and make no presumptions, but you apparently did by attacking the one example I provided with the desitination of the hike being the meat and the cache as the gravy. With some exceptions, this game has always been the destination, the location of the cache... not the cache itself. Sometimes, it involves how the hunt is handled, but it still comes down to the destination... now doesn't it?

 

Now for the trades. Anybody in the know has already pointed out it isn't about the trade or the trinket, but the experience. The guidelines are not hard fast rules, but just simple guidelines to follow. It's not part of the requirment when the cache is found. If it was, then micros wouldn't be allowed.

 

I have no real opinion of how people play the game. So long as they have fun, why would it matter to me? If you're not having fun, then the game is being taken far too seriously.

 

Finally, my signature has something to do with a specific topic which is also similar to the angst the OP started with. The OP was blaming his failure to have fun with the sport because "lazy people that TNLNSL" was robbing from the intent of the sport. Salient enough for you?

 

Geocache was made on a premise. Find the cache ...Take something...Leave something....Log your visit.

 

Read the history. Yes, geocaching was made on a premise but YOU got it wrong.

 

Find the cache. IF you take something, leave something. Log your visit.

 

So far, the only thing I've seen in this entire course of discussion is purely symantics. But you still missed my point, and you missed the intent of my signature.

 

Cheers!

TL

Edited December 20, 2004 by TotemLake

[+NightPilot]

Yes, the destination and the getting there are what it's about. And if getting there involves a long and grueling 100 foot hike, then I can't get all that excited. And I see a lot of those. A lot of them. There just isn't much to be said in the log, and the redistribution of trinkets just doesn't excite me. The majority of the caches I see lately are put out by people with 10 or fewer finds, and who have just become excited by caching and have to put out caches. Most suffer from acute CDD. I did one of those today, and it wasn't worth the 2.4 mile trip to get there. A nice enough cache, nice enough stuff in it, but a hundred-foot walk across bare ground to the edge of the trees and a cache in plain sight just leaves me cold. I traded, but I'm not sure why. I really need to start seeing much better caches, or I may have to go elsewhere.

[+Mule Ears]

(1) Cache contents degrade with time.

(2) TNLNSL does not affect cache contents.

(3) Therefore trading degrades cache contents.

(4) So how is it "selfish" to engage in a practice that, comparatively speaking, leaves caches in better shape than the average trade?

 

--This line of discussion is entirely about one group wanting to impose its preferences on another through entirely unpersuasive means ("...A Rante").

 

If you really want to encourage trading, why not try the carrot instead of the stick (of overcooked spaghetti)? When you see logs that indicate the kind of trading activity that you like to see, click the cacher's profile and send 'em a note full of lavish praise and warm fuzzies. Griping will just harden hearts against you and absolutely convince others that you're being peevish. Generous praise is 99.9% effective.

[+BlueDeuce]

(1) Cache contents degrade with time.

(2) TNLNSL does not affect cache contents.

(3) Therefore trading degrades cache contents.

(4) So how is it "selfish" to engage in a practice that, comparatively speaking, leaves caches in better shape than the average trade?

 

--This line of discussion is entirely about one group wanting to impose its preferences on another through entirely unpersuasive means ("...A Rante").

 

If you really want to encourage trading, why not try the carrot instead of the stick (of overcooked spaghetti)? When you see logs that indicate the kind of trading activity that you like to see, click the cacher's profile and send 'em a note full of lavish praise and warm fuzzies. Griping will just harden hearts against you and absolutely convince others that you're being peevish. Generous praise is 99.9% effective.

That was an absolutely beautiful response! Well done!

 

Hey what do you know? It makes me feel good too!

 

[+Team Perks]

If you really want to encourage trading, why not try the carrot instead of the stick (of overcooked spaghetti)? When you see logs that indicate the kind of trading activity that you like to see, click the cacher's profile and send 'em a note full of lavish praise and warm fuzzies. Griping will just harden hearts against you and absolutely convince others that you're being peevish. Generous praise is 99.9% effective.

Group hug!!

 

Showing a little appreciation can go a long way.

[+Mule Ears]

BlueDeuce:

That was an absolutely beautiful response! Well done!

Hey what do you know? It makes me feel good too!

 

Team PerkyPerks:

Group hug!! 

Showing a little appreciation can go a long way.

 

See how that works--A little praise and a Group Hug and I'm on my way to being a regular forum poster Thanks for your support, BlueDeuce and PerkyPerks!

[+Markwell]

Ok...I now understand. I just needed hear the other cachers views.

 

After reading all the posts...I realize I was being petty about TNLNSL.

 

As long as the cache is the same or better than when you left it, then that is responsible caching.

 

Again, I thank everyone for helping me understand another way to look at it.

 

Cache ON!

Seems that many missed the OP's response. We've helped him understand things a little better.

 

Just thought many missed it, as we seem to still be piling on.

[+TotemLake]

I had caught it. I was merely responding to the continuing debate. What surprises me (and I know I shouldn't be) is when someone will lower themselves to personal attacks when they don't like someone else's comments tossed into the mix.

[+Mule Ears]

Markwell:

Seems that many missed the OP's response. We've helped him understand things a little better. Just thought many missed it, as we seem to still be piling on.

 

You're right--I plumb missed the response. Sorry to beat a dead horse.

 

Congratulations to the OP for being a good sport. It's commendable to be open to persuasion; it's remarkable to acknowledge a change of mind in a rough and tumble public forum. In honor of Techno Team, Team Mule Ears hearby pledges to increase its trade-to-TNLNSL-ratio.

[+TheCallanCrew]

I made and make no presumptions,

 

<<snip>>

Anybody in the know

 

<<snip>>

 

YOU got it wrong.

You clearly made presumptions...denying it does not make it so. Again, we have our opinions.

 

"Those in the know" -- what a crock and excuse for good rhetoric. This is called appealing to an unknown authority and is pure nonsense.

 

No, I got it right. You merely believe otherwise, which is fine. You can TNLNSL all you like. Some of us will simply find it a selfish cop out when you do. No problems. Lots of people have fun finding the caches and don't even log their finds for months, if at all...they feel, what's the bother? This is not much different from TNLNSL...well, almost...it is a bit more selfish.

 

Now the issue of TNLNSL, as I understood the OP post, applied primarily to non-micro or log-only caches. Clearly, a very small cache has no room and we all must merely sign the log. Some of us will even leave small collector's pins in the small micros that can enclose them. Call us crazy, but it is all part of the game.

[+TheCallanCrew]

Markwell:

Seems that many missed the OP's response. We've helped him understand things a little better. Just thought many missed it, as we seem to still be piling on.

 

You're right--I plumb missed the response. Sorry to beat a dead horse.

 

Congratulations to the OP for being a good sport. It's commendable to be open to persuasion; it's remarkable to acknowledge a change of mind in a rough and tumble public forum. In honor of Techno Team, Team Mule Ears hearby pledges to increase its trade-to-TNLNSL-ratio.

Excellent! Welcome back to the trinket side of the house.

[+Camo-crazed]

Well now, you seem to be the one presuming  . First, I do not wish you to forgo gravy at all. If you want to hike, then hike...just hike. Second, if you cannot "get" the ideas in the post then one seems hard pressed to see how you could "appreciate" the salient ideas in the post. Your post indicated that you missed several.

 

No one is dictating  . All are opining. Forums are for opinions  . You have one...your signature presumes that people are failing to have fun. How preposterous and presumptuous? It, too, is but an opinion  .

 

Take something, leave something is pretty clear. It is about trade, swap and keeping contents rotating. Take something without leaving something was not part of our topic. (How you made it such escapes us all.  ) Such behavior is not in keeping with the rules, but I am certain that it does occur. It is selfish when it does.

 

You did expand on the points I had made, but I cannot say that the expansion was much on course with the original topic of TNLNSL. However, the rhetoric did keep the ball bouncing as it were.

 

As to pushing preferences. I realize that people will do as they will. You will. My preferences have nothing to do with it  . You can continue to TNLNSL and I shall continue to feel it selfish  . I can continue to take something and leave something or simply leave something and you can feel it selfish  . Your opinion of my way of playing in no way diminishes my fun. One can only hope that you will continue to have fun regardless of what others think of TNLNSL.

 

Lastly, you presume that I and others fail to have fun which is preposterous  . You also presume that we are "doing something to ourselves" which is equally as nuts  . It is no wonder that you have a lunatic in your head. Let the lunatic out for a while and just "be." It would be a 60s act that you could appreciate. Perhaps you might notice that merely living is an act of success and that fun is also part of this thing we call life  .

at least they posted emoticons!

 

smileys add color to an otherwise black and light grey post

 

I usually trade

Edited December 20, 2004 by camo-crazed