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People Have To Use More Sense.


JohnnyRotten
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I went caching today in Brookdale Park, in Bloomfield, NJ. What I found, was disgraceful. The cache owner kind of prides himself on how many DNF's he can log on his cache page. I'm not blaming him for what happened, but this may very well come back to bite him and all of us on the butt. His mistakes were numerous. He planted a micro cache in or on or near a stone wall in a public park that gets a lot of pedestrian traffic. The stone wall is adjacent to a set of tennis courts. He gives instructions to be discreet, but I don't know that you could be discreet in this place with the volume of people walking through there.

What I saw made me sick. Someone actually removed large sections of the stone wall, and there was debris strewn all over the place. You would have thought that a CSI team went through the place with a search warrant. So as not to be too repetitive, I'll include the link to the page below. I know the state of Colorado did not want cachers hiding caches anywhere in their parks system, now I understand why. I fear that this whole thing will come back to haunt us.

Stonewall What a Racquet ;)

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Caches like that earn an email from me saying what they can expect in terms of wear and tear on the envrionment. When people place a cache it's their responsibility to keep in mind the morons who use brute force to look instead of their brains. If you don't factor it in, you will get results exactly like you have seen. I'm glad I have only had to send two emails like that.

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Every sport has their "dirty" participants. Hunters who shoot anything that moves ans some things that don't, fishermen who throw their beer bottles and excess line in the stream, ballplayers who destroy a field by playing when its muddy, mountain bikers who ride hiking only trails. The list goes on. Unfortunately geocaching isn't immune from this. Fortunately its a small segment of the population. Unfortunately, they can give the rest of us a black eye.

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While I agree %110 that cachers should be careful about damaging the environment, unless you know the location intimately before the cache was placed, it's hard for someone to access that kind of damage. I've had people make the same complaint's about a few of our caches that turned out to be unfounded. In my cases, what helped is I took lots of pictures of the area when I was scouting locations for the cache several months prior to placing it, and I also take pics when I placed it that I can use to help verify if someone who DNFs the cache was searching the right place. Both caches the complaints were unfounded, and if anything the nearby stone fence (you can not hide a cache in New England without it being within 30ft of a stone fence; they are everywhere!) was in better shape now (presumably by cachers who took the time to pick up a few stones off the ground) then when we placed the cache. The funny thing to me is, in both cases the person who complained has a reputation of being a "scorched earth" cacher; I've heard a story about him once picking up a cleverly camouflaged cache and flinging it 25ft away without realizing it was the cache!

 

So yea, geocachers damaging the wall is bad, but so is accusing other cachers of doing it if you don't actually know what the area looked like before the cache was there.

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I'm not looking to point a finger at anyone, but there is no way in hell that this damage was caused by a storm. I have seen retaining walls and such give way from the forces of nature, and let me tell you, Mother Nature leaves her fingerprints all over the scene of some natural destruction. For a retaining wall to give way in spots, there would have been rivers of mud left behind. That was not the case here. It looked like someone raked about the first three feet of debris off the top of the wall to the ground below. I have never seen an event where just a couple of feet of leaves and twigs were pulled off the top of something by rain water and there not be little areas where you could see where the water ran through. We had two days of rain (not unusual for this area) but the total rainfall was less than an inch. There is no doubt in my mind that someone did this purposefully, and I'm old enough to know that there is no such thing as a coincidence (unless of course you hit the lottery twice in a week.) For as many people to have scoured this place for the number of hours that it took (including the miscreant who damaged the area) there is something wrong. I have to question placing a micro cache in such a busy area to begin with. That aside, the coordinates are off and the clues stunk. And this isn't sour grapes. I have placed caches, and for my way of thinking, you place a cache in a clever spot so people can find them, not so you can have the distinction of having the most DNF's on your log page. Why not just bury a cache in some dead guy's casket, and then let all the DNF's accumulate on the page?

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I was at this cache site last night as well and immediately emailed Saylor in reference to the damage. I was happy to see that he responded quickly, however, I do not believe that he has remedied the situation.

 

JR is absolutely correct; this damage was not (in any way) caused by nature.

 

Although, I disagree with JR’s OP when he states he doesn’t blame the hider for this destruction. This damage is the DIRECT result of Saylor’s thoughtless placement and/or not taking the time to provide either accurate coordinates and/or quality encrypted hints.

 

Renegade Knight hit the nail right on the head in his post: “When people place a cache it's their responsibility to keep in mind the morons who use brute force to look instead of their brains. If you don't factor it in, you will get results exactly like you have seen.”

 

Saylor’s remedy was to provide a diagram. The diagram is useless. It is merely a map of the damaged area and does nothing assist future seekers in any way.

 

This cache needs to be archived until such time as the hider can provide both accurate coordinates AND a proper/revealing hint.

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Someone actually removed large sections of the stone wall, and there was debris strewn all over the place.

 

I would hold people responsible for their own actions. The apathetic and listless person who tore apart the wall obviously has low morals, self-esteem and ethics.

 

JR - You did the right thing to simply walk away then notify the cache owner the problems you encountered with the his/her cache.

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JohnnyRotten,

 

You've made a good case for the damaged area. I applaud your willingness to bring attention to such matters even though it may be the unpopular voice. But, I am concerned with your comments regarding the said cache's characteristics.

Placing a cache in a busy area is well accepted and can be found thoroughly enjoyable. Also, no cache owner is obligated in any way to provide clues.

The coordinates are a separate matter since there can many factors influencing the accuracy. If you believe that you can provide more precise one's, then by all means share them with others in your log.

If the accusations are true, that this cache's owner enjoys DNF's posted for his caches, that's great. As long as the cache is appropriately rated, it's a non-issue.

It's all part of the same game that can be played in many different ways.

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JohnnyRotten,

 

You've made a good case for the damaged area. I applaud your willingness to bring attention to such matters even though it may be the unpopular voice.

I've never been concerned with being popular. I call them like I see them. There is NO excuse for cachers to trash an area looking for a cache. However, like I said, I've also been on the receiving end of several Johnny Rotten type complaints. Each time I've taken the complaints very seriously; and each time they were unfounded. I'm not saying JR's accusations are wrong; I'm saying unless he was also there before the cache was placed, and there to watch cachers trash the wall, it's pretty easy to make a wrong assumption. I have no idea what the area looks like, but generally taking apart an entire stone wall is pretty labor intense and not a good way to search for a cache. It's possible it was like that when the cache was placed. It's possible it was washed out. It's possible a tree fell across it. It's possible a commercial mower or piece of landscaping equiptment backed into it. It's possible kids took it apart to access a trail or hang out spot. It's possible someone did it stealing rocks for a garden. It's possible it was done to survey something. It's possible some a-hole cacher trashed the wall looking for the cache.

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I've never been concerned with being popular. I call them like I see them

 

My comments weren't directed towards you, Mopar. I agree with all of what you've said.

I just find that people are unwilling to express any negativity regarding a cache and was merely commending JohnnyRotten for taking a stand.

I don't know if the damage was caused by a cacher. It's possible, but so are many other reasons, like you listed.

 

The cache's owner has posted a new 'note' for the cache in question and his points sound very reasonable to me.

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Mopar, I don't know you, and hence, I'm sure I have never complained about you or your caches. I was in that park less than a week ago, and the wall was not damaged. I went there yesterday, and there were several spots that had rocks pulled out. I will say this, it appears by their logs that the cache owner and one other cacher went there after dark. In the daylight, you can see that the rocks had clearly been pulled out AFTER the rain had stopped. There was fresh dirt on top of them. Add just a sprinkle of rain, and that dirt washes off. And I believe that it would be hard to see that in the dark. On the other hand, there were no "mower tracks" anywhere to be seen, and there was no signs of any "natural occurence" that would have pulled those rocks from the wall. The only fault that I find with the cache owner, is that if you are going to plant a cache in a busy area like this, you have to have your coordinates dead on AND you have to make the cache more or less "hide in plain sight." My first reaction was to run down there and take pictures, but then I started thinking that any photos of the damage posted on this board, can ONLY MAKE MATTERS WORSE. I say we chaulk this whole thread and cache up to experience, learn from it and move on. :lol:

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JR, it was not you that complained. I hate to name names, but one of my examples is here, (start at the bottom and read up) and the forum thread related to it is here.

 

Once again, if cachers did that they should be ashamed of themselves. I agree the cache hider always has the obligation to give the best coords possible, but unless both the hider and finders are using $10,000 GPS units, 30ft is not unreasonable. the absolute best a consumer GPS can promise is 9-12ft accuracy, and 15-20ft is much more common. If I hide a cache and at the time my GPS is 15ft off to the north, and when you go back the satellites are in different alignment and your GPS is 15ft off to the south, you're gonna see my cache as 30ft off.

I'm not sure how the cache was originally rated, but now it's listed as a 3 difficulty, which means you should expect to spend 2-4hrs searching for the cache. I'm no fan of caches in rock walls (ok, generally I hate them!) but they are very common in New England. Maybe that's why most cachers here know how to find these without damaging the location. You rarely need to move ANY stones to spot the cache, and at the most you move 1 at a time and then replace it where you found it. Tearing apart the wall is totally unnecessary, and I just have a really had time imagining someone flinging rocks all over looking for the cache. I would much rather think this is the result of any one of 100 other explanations.

Edited by Mopar
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Me too. I mean, I was there with Rotten Johnny and saw what he saw. I have no opinion as to how it occurred. What I do have an opinion about is the tone of some of the posts. Mopar's "Orange You Glad" forum discussion is very similar to this but nobody's flaming the cache owner.

 

Since this controversy has developed I've been in contact with the cache owner. I wondered if the treasure could have been hidden so deep that somebody would have had to tear the wall down. Nope. I've discovered that our coords were almost dead on. He's used suggestions by others to improve the description and hints for the cache. Considering the location, the only thing left for him to do is paint a bright orange arrow on the proper rock!

 

I hate to be girlie here, but could we keep the discussion away from attacks on the cache owner and his experience, state of mind, motivation, etc., (unless one knows him personally and believes he needs to be banned)? Having seen the after, but not the before, I know it could have been several days of heavy rain, or it could have been a frustrated (or irritated) searcher. If it was the latter, that's a real disappointment to me. Kind of like the parents you read about in the paper who beat on their kids' coaches when the kids' don't play enough, or the teams don't win, ya know? Who wants to play with them?

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When people place a cache it's their responsibility to keep in mind the morons who use brute force to look instead of their brains.  If you don't factor it in, you will get results exactly like you have seen.

I definitely agree with this post. It is unfortunate that some people feel the need to tear an area apart to find a cache. I have encountered numerous caches hidden in or near stone walls belonging to historic structures. Many of these spots would be classified as archaeological sites, which are supposed to be off limits for geocaches anyway. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to hide a cache in a stone wall. I was recently pleasantly surprised to do a cache in southern new jersey that was hidden near the remains of an historic structure but that was not hidden in the foundation wall, especially since it appeared that great pains have been taken to stabilize what is left of the structure. This cache was hidden at least 30 feet away from the structure in a clever spot with good camouflage.

Edited by trowel32
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:lol:

 

Hiya everyone

 

Im not here to torch anyone im letting that be known right off. Ive got other problems to worry more about than what people are saying.

 

1) really not much to say just that i think this thing has gotten a lil blown out of proportion.

 

2) im going to the site and take as many pictures and from as many different angles as possible they will be available by email for those who are interested.

 

3) I will take a poll from those that saw the pictures of the area and its surroundings on what they think happened.

 

4) I personally dont like the fact that people think i like to see DNF's on my cache pages. Thats really going to make people want to go out and find them? And obviously these accusations are coming from ppl that have never met me or know me.

 

5) The rating on the page originally was a 2 for difficulty. After all this i changed it to a 3.

 

6) You would think that after what has been said about me that ive had constant contact with the people saying things. maybe once or twice by email but thats that. And i must add that most of that wasnt pleasant.

 

7) part of the difficulty rating is the fact of the traffic in that park. Dog walkers, joggers etc. There are 2 other caches in that park and the other 2 have a warning that there is alot of traffic just like mine. As a matter of fact one of the others is mine.

 

these are just a few of the things running through my brain right now. Im not quite sure what i have done to these people to be chastised in this way. I got some good emails and some bad emails thanks to those that sent me the good emails and to those who didnt im not sure what your thought process is or was but i think your way off base. But then again opinions are like a-holes everyone has one.

 

Peace

 

And ill let ya know when the pics are available.

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Just one more response:

 

:lol: Bluehook let me clear things up for you. If you were at the cache site then you would remeber that the diagram is approx 30 foot from the area that was "totally Destroyed" (more like 50) the area in the diagram is where the cache was placed and it was in perfect condition with exception of some big piles of pine needles that were there. oh wait that was probably from the pine trees. and probably got washed down from the hill above the wall and while im at it? the sticks n stuff? i wish i knew where they came from? oh thats right the trees near the cache site. and oh not to forget the debris like water bottles near the bench right near the tennis courts? OMG your right someone deliberatly left them there after they took the time with all the people in the park watching them destroy the wall!!!!!!!!!!

 

Id say its time for people to think logically all the Bs that has been spewed is just BS.

 

Last post on the subject except for the pictures post .

 

Peace

Edited by Saylor -n- Crew
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I agree with the people here who say that a cache owner takes a great deal of responsibility when he hides a cache and that he also should accept some blame when a cache hunt gets out of hand. But I think the piling on Saylor -n- Crew here is uncalled for. There are hundreds, if not thousands of caches hidden in siimilar placess and there are no issues with people ripping the area apart. Something like this could easily happen with any of our hides if the searcher uses the "scorched earth" method.

 

As a cache owner we should accept responsible for any damage caused by our caches, but lets not lose sight of the real culprit - the person who rips apart the area. I'm sure a cache like this one probably could have sat there for months, or years with many happy finders. It was only when an inconsiderate searcher came along that this became an issue.

 

Please lay off Saylor -n- Crew. I'm sure they placed the cache with the intent of entertaining everyone here. I know if I placed a cache in a wall in Brookdale Park I'd think "this should be fine, what can happen here?".

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Ok folks instead of emailing the pix i put em up online

 

I agree that the placer of the cache has a certain responsibility to maintain the area that the cache is located in. However most of the area is something that is out of my control.

 

I'm sorry but I cant control pine needles and sticks or the unwillingness of others to maintain the park. Example of this is the water bottles and trash that was strewn all over which i believe is the direct result of the people using the tennis courts.

 

In this instance I will be going back on a day its not raining and repairing the wall that was damaged. I am not going to archive the cache as i feel that it will be a challenge for people to find it. If you dont like micro's don't search for it. If you don't like me don't look for my caches. Plain and simple. If you look at the description and hints its up to you as to whether you want to search for it. Or you could just email me and ask for another hint.

 

Its unfortunate that this has happened. Its unfortunate that a cacher did this. Its unfortunate that the people in this forum feel the need to trash me and not even know me.

 

here is the link to the cache pix. You decide for yourself what happened.

 

cache pix

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IMO, I believe that blame is directed in the wrong manner. The blame should be steared at the one who caused the destruction. Since we don't have the culprit, society allows us to blame the next person remaining in the open... the cache owner. Wrong accusations are flying towards the wrong person.

WE, ourselves, should be responsible for our own actions!

Perhaps the only good that could be made out this, is to leave this as an example. All cache seekers, from this time forward, should reconsider their seeking style/method. Don't be the "inconsiderate cache seeker", you're not helping anything/anyone with your destructive seeking methods. Only making it worst for EVERYONE in this game. Eventually making this game not favorable in the public eye. Image is everything.

Edited by GeoKender
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You're absolutely right ... each of us is responsible for our own actions.

 

During the 3 years I geocached, I witnessed dozens of situations precisely like the one described in this thread. During that time, situations similar to the one described in this thread were discussed in these forums many times.

 

So what can be learned from this?

 

1. Some geocachers don't consider their actions or the potential consequences of their actions ... I suspect that some individuals just don't give a dadgum.

 

Most of us have probably witnessed the destruction caused by "scorched earth" geocachers, and it is infuriating. It is no less infuriating that, in most of the cases I have personally seen, the individual who placed the cache could have, and should have, precluded damage to the location by having anticipated the potential destruction and refraining from having placed a cache in the location.

 

2. These forums are not a useful way to disseminate important information or educate newcomers, because so few make good use of them.

 

3. The cache review/approval process is inadequate.

Edited by Bassoon Pilot
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You're absolutely right ... each of us is responsible for our own actions.

 

During the 3 years I geocached, I witnessed dozens of situations precisely like the one described in this thread. During that time, situations similar to the one described in this thread were discussed in these forums many times.

 

So what can be learned from this?

 

1. Some geocachers don't consider their actions or the potential consequences of their actions ... I suspect that some individuals just don't give a dadgum.

 

Most of us have probably witnessed the destruction caused by "scorched earth" geocachers, and it is infuriating. It is no less infuriating that, in most of the cases I have personally seen, the individual who placed the cache could have, and should have, precluded damage to the location by having anticipated the potential destruction and refraining from having placed a cache in the location.

 

2. These forums are not a useful way to disseminate important information or educate newcomers, because so few make good use of them.

 

3. The cache review/approval process is inadequate.

So...solutions?

 

If we are going to put all the responsibility to eliminate environmental damage on the hider and the review process, then there only seems a few possible solutions.

 

New caches can ONLY been hidden in areas where it is impossible for any idiot to cause any damage. No caches within 100ft of any open land. There is no way to hide a cache in the woods that some bozo cant screw up looking for it. From now on, only urban micros. The only sure-fire way to keep every single person from causing some possible damage to the environment is to not let them anywhere near it. Currently even on 1 difficulty hides where the cache is 20ft off the trail and the description practically walks you to the cache, there will always be a few people that bushwhack directly from the nearest road instead. Since there is no possible way to prevent a scorched earth cacher from seeking the cache, all caches will have to be "scorch proof".

 

How to educate the newbies? It's obvious they don't all read the forums. It's just as obvious they don't read all the how-to's, FAQs, and guidelines on the site now. Hiders currently check off a box saying they followed the guidelines when hiding the cache, and most of us have seen caches where that obviously isn't the case. How can new cachers be forced to be educated? Made to take a test or attend a class first? We do that with automobiles now, but every day I see someone who can't drive.

 

I don't think anyone thinks scorched earth caching is a good idea (probably not even the ones who do it), so how to prevent it?

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On the topic of educating the cache hider/newbe

 

Ive read the guidlines several times. As well as the FAQ page. I've asked people questions ive taken advice from people and implemented suggestions from them in the past.

 

I dont beleive that the spot i placed the cache was bad. The people that damaged the place made it a bad place.

 

And on the topic of not thinking about the area or its surroundings I did. What i did think about is the cachers that were going to be going there. Local cachers who have been around the area, been caching a while, etc.

 

I just didnt think they would do something like that. From now on i will. Its just sad that I have to worry about some a-hole coming behind me and trashing a cache area (and not even the right area to boot) and ruining it for others.

 

Its a hard to find cache or at least it was til i posted pictures.

 

At least 1 person found it with no mention of bad hints or bad coords. another was right there no mention of bad hints. although he didnt find it . the hints were pretty simple. short and too the point.

 

Hints will be more forthcoming as to make it easier to find the cache.

 

Some one was talking about heavily traveled areas and that wasnt a good place to put it, well hell what about the parkway rest stop cache took me 15 minutes after finding it to get to sign the log. My cache on its best month wouldnt be getting near the traffic that does in a day.

 

anyway i just felt i needed to say some things

 

tc and happy caching.

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...so how to prevent it?

I don’t know how to completely prevent it but I think it can be drastically reduced if hiders use a little common sense. I also realize that common sense ain’t common to everyone and cannot be mandated…

 

Some hiders, especially new hiders or those who lack the mental capacity of forethought, need to realize the ramifications of placing a cache with crappy hints and/or inaccurate coordinates. They need to know that these 2 components are gong to be significant ingredients in protecting “fragile” areas contiguous to any cache hide.

 

New hiders or those that get bombarded by “inquisitive” emails within days of their cache being posted should have the good judgment to ask other, more experienced cachers for help. From my experience, there are many here that would gladly help a newbie/distressed cache hider.

 

We’ve probably all done it: useless hints with ambiguous wording like, “near the big rock,” or “by a large tree.” In the excited-tunnel-vision of a first hide we perceive our clues to be oh-so-clever but in reality they’re just-plain-stupid.

 

I have seen far too many “torn up” areas surrounding caches that were poorly written up by the hider. It is no coincidence that ALL of these caches had inaccurate coords and/or useless hints. This is undoubtedly hurting the game.

 

Devoid of an eyewitness, it can’t be assumed that all of this damage was done by active gc.com members: when a cache is hidden and “broadcast” on the internet for all the world to see, the pool of possible perpetrators is boundless.

 

That’s why (IMO) the burden of responsibility falls precisely back to the cache hider.

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2. These forums are not a useful way to disseminate important information or educate newcomers, because so few make good use of them.

 

I have only worked at this sport sporadically for the past two months, and though I've logged more than a few finds, I still label myself 'new' to it all. That said, as a newbie, I suspect that more people read the forums than post in them, and the read count on the main page will attest to that fact. Where better to hash out these issues?

 

However, I consider the overall tenor of the posts regarding this subject to be overly hostile, and I would postulate that something other than the damage to the wall is causing such strong feelings: I will reserve opinion on just what that may be, in the interests of not fanning the flames further.

 

In the end, I think personal responsibility goes a long way. Saylor has demonstrated this, and is to be lauded for his fast response to the problem.

 

I hope that all who read this thread, whether new or experienced, will take away a new mindfulness when playing our shared game of hide and seek. And, while the destruction of property under any circumstances is distressing, I think that as a group we might turn our protective energies to better, more constructive purposes.

 

Play nice.

 

(No, I'm not a hippie-dippie).

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However, I consider the overall tenor of the posts regarding this subject to be overly hostile, and I would postulate that something other than the damage to the wall is causing such strong feelings: 

After looking at the posted pictures, I started thinking the same thing. Other than a couple rocks out of place, everything looked normal. Hardly an area "destroyed".

 

Unless, of course, the pictures leave out something

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However, I consider the overall tenor of the posts regarding this subject to be overly hostile, and I would postulate that something other than the damage to the wall is causing such strong feelings: 

After looking at the posted pictures, I started thinking the same thing. Other than a couple rocks out of place, everything looked normal. Hardly an area "destroyed".

 

Unless, of course, the pictures leave out something

I gotta agree with IV. Just from what we can see in the pics, it looks like the "damage" is 2 stones that look like they coulda fallen from a kid climbing the wall, or maybe even washed out in a heavy rain (looks like there is a layer of mud where the rocks were). The ground cover looks pretty natural and spread out. Perhaps someone who's been there can point out what must be missing in the pics.

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:rolleyes:

Dear Mr. Bluehook,

 

I take great offense to the things that you say, the way that you say them. Somewhere sometime in your life you should have removed the giant stick up your butt. And had that chip on your shoulder taken care of.

 

Im not quite sure the reason for all the animosity that you have towards me. And yes its aimed towards me, im not stupid I'm and educated man. But with this animosity brings a few questions into mind.

 

1) what did i do to this guy to deserve all this crap?

2) hell he's yelling at me about responsibility?

3) with the way he obviously feels about new cahcers could he have been the one to go there and make a mess to start crap?

 

I dunno but there is alot of anger or something going on there. Weird thing is we have never met. I don't know what i could have done to deserve your "wrath"

 

Do you honestly think that anyone new to this sport is going to ask you for help? The way you speak to people and degrade them in such an nice manner. You would have to be out of your mind to think anyone would.

 

Lets talk responsible:

 

I recall doing your cache and i might add i had a great time. But was a bit disappointed to find an old rusty coffee can that was a mildew mess. not taken care of well at all. the lid cracked and another on top of it to help keep it water tight. The log was full and wet and I recall even replacing that log with a new one which i always carry for just such an occasion.

 

I don't feel that you were very responsible leaving your cache that way. Have you ever been there to clean it out? or change the container to a new and improved weather and mildew proof container? Hell they're a dollar at the dollar store. Tell ya what. Im a nice guy never mean to anyone. Ill make the trip there to do it for ya cuz the time you spent flaming me here on the forum coulda been better spent looking after your own cache instead of trashing me.

 

Hints are just that HINTS. They are designed to give an idea where the cache may be. You seem so worried about the hints. Is it possible that maybe you need those hints to help you find the cache? Or is it that you "lack the mental capacity" to think logically and find it on your own?

 

I can trash talk just like you. except im a bit more to the point.

 

Your a rude pompous a** who feels that by degrading everyone else that makes you important in some way shape or form. In you distorted reality you feel you have to do this. You must because I've seen the rude and sarcastic comments throughout the cache pages and throughout the forum. You sir are what is known as a jerk. And from the way your attitude is i wouldn't doubt that you saw the cache page didn't like the hint cuz it wasn't a dead giveaway and went there and tore the wall down.

 

Of course this did not happen but with the animosity you display it could very well be a thought in someone else's mind.

 

I am doing what I can to rectify the wall situation and posted my intentions you came back with a big slam Saylor again type post. Oh wait I gues you didnt have the mental capacity to understand what i wrote. Read it again maybe you'll figure it out.

 

Take care all happy caching.

 

P.S.

 

I am truley sorry to those that i have offended by this post but i deserved nothing but ideas on how to better prevent this from happening again. Instead i got blasted, flamed, torched or whatever ya want to call it.

 

Way i see it people need to grow the hell up and act like the adults that we are.

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Things are getting out of hand here. For a moment I thought I accidently wandered into the British Columbia geocaching forums (is there something in the water up there?).

 

Looking at Saylor's photos its pretty obvious that the damage to the wall came before the storm (you can see the mud washed down where the stones were) and unfortunately, geocachers were the likely source. The leaves, needles and other debris are probably from the storm and unrelated.

 

Being relatively new to this I doubt Saylor-n-Crew even considered that someone would come along and rip the wall apart while searching. It was a valuable lesson for Saylor-n-Crew. In reality any of our caches could probably result in similar damage from thoughless geocachers, good coordinates and useful hints be damned. The stupidity of people in general knows no bounds.

 

The damage to the wall was unecessary, thoughtless, relatively minor and easily repaired. The flaming of Saylor-n-Crew was also unecessary and thoughtless. The same points could have been made with some tact.

 

In the words of the famous philosopher, Billy Jean King (or was it Rodney Allen Ripney?) "Can't we all just get along?".

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You're absolutely right ... each of us is responsible for our own actions.

 

During the 3 years I geocached, I witnessed dozens of situations precisely like the one described in this thread. During that time, situations similar to the one described in this thread were discussed in these forums many times.

 

So what can be learned from this?

 

1. Some geocachers don't consider their actions or the potential consequences of their actions ... I suspect that some individuals just don't give a dadgum.

 

Most of us have probably witnessed the destruction caused by "scorched earth" geocachers, and it is infuriating. It is no less infuriating that, in most of the cases I have personally seen, the individual who placed the cache could have, and should have, precluded damage to the location by having anticipated the potential destruction and refraining from having placed a cache in the location.

 

2. These forums are not a useful way to disseminate important information or educate newcomers, because so few make good use of them.

 

3. The cache review/approval process is inadequate.

Dear Abby,

If someone were so disillusioned with a particular activity and had nothing positive to say about it over... say... a 10 month period, why would such a person continue to be engaged in discussion with those who enjoy the activity?

Signed,

Baffled in Birmingham

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So...solutions?

 

If we are going to put all the responsibility to eliminate environmental damage on the hider and the review process, then there only seems a few possible solutions.

You quoted my post in its entirety, and nowhere in that post did I state any such thing ... I very clearly agreed that each of us is responsible for our own actions. In the case of geocaching, that would include cache seekers, cache hiders, and the listing service.

 

How to educate the newbies? It's obvious they don't all read the forums. It's just as obvious they don't read all the how-to's, FAQs, and guidelines on the site now.

 

You're right, and as geocaching has become increasingly "mainstream," more and more people have taken up the sport who have not previously been engaged in, or exposed to, 'outdoorsmanship.' So I suppose we must all be force-fed a little knowledge by making it somewhat less-easy to engage in the activity.

 

1. The "New to Geocaching?" section on the main page is not prominent enough, and its content is inadequate. Proper searching techniques aren't even mentioned. In my opinion, it requires a total rewrite. It should probably include a short video that stresses proper techniques.

 

2. In addition, I concede that it appears that the time has finally arrived that it would be in the best interests of cache owners to block access to cache coordinates until an account has been created and the user has logged in. The creation of an account must include a requirement to read the FAQ (which also require a rewrite) during the process. I also think it would be a good idea to require a semi-annual reverification of all accounts ... an auto-generated e-mail to the account holder containing a link to a "review" page would suffice. (The failure to reverify the account would simply inactivate the account until the review had been completed.)

 

3. The simple check box on the cache submission form indicating that the user has read the guidelines is inadequate. Accounts that have zero hides should be brought to the guidelines page instead of the submission form. After having read the guidelines and answering a short "survey," they are forwarded to the submission page. Similar to #2 above, I think it would be a good idea if the user was required to re-read the guidelines if that account had not submitted a new cache in the previous six months.

 

4. The review process needs a total revamp. For example, it is absurd that, on the one hand, the listing service requires knowledge of the coordinates for all stages of multicaches, while on the other hand accepts 'on faith' that the cache hider received "adequate permission" to use a location. For example, Non-conforming caches are unacceptable and will not be listed under any circumstances ... unless they are "grandfathered." Etc., etc. ... the review process is an inconsistent mess of mixed messages. In the very least, the cache review/approval process needs to be made much more objective, and all of the cache reviewers need to work from the same set of rules and guidelines. After that, the larger issue of the extent and nature of the control the listing service exercises on the caches it lists can be addressed.

 

I don't think anyone thinks scorched earth caching is a good idea (probably not even the ones who do it), so how to prevent it?

 

I agree that it probably can't be prevented, but much more can be done to minimize it than is currently being done. This listing service positions itself as the foremost proponent, and 'good stewards,' of the sport. It is therefore incumbent upon the listing service to take a strong leadership role in educating geocachers.

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I’m not singling anyone out, I’m addressing (what I see as a) a reoccurring concern that I think is hurting the game of geocaching. This problem is bigger than just one person. We’re talking about a mistake that is commonly performed, you, me, maybe even the infamous Stayfloopy probably did the same thing at one time. I believe when I used the line, “we’ve all done it” that point was emphasized.

 

But Saylor, since you have “addressed” me personally, I will say this: I hold no animosity towards you, that’s silly. On the contrary, I was the guy that spent several hours of my own time helping you with your first (now defunct) Montclair Actors puzzle cache, fine tuning the puzzle at home and visiting the cache site several times and emailing you back-and-forth. I also took the time to supply you with better coordinates for your second cache when people couldn’t find it because they were more than 70 feet off. If you helped out at one of my caches then I certainly appreciate that despite the fact that I visit them often and determine (on my own) if changes need to be made. Although I don’t believe that your pictures accurately represent what I witnessed regarding the damage at Brookdale Park, we certainly have exhausted this topic.

 

None of us are perfect as I stated. I, for one, can definitely answer affirmatively the philosophical question posed by Don-Billie-Jean-Rodney-Alan King when he asks, “can’t we all get along?”

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Surprisingly, I agree with most of this. As a matter of fact, I've suggested most of this stuff myself in the past. I don't know that limiting coords to registered accounts would help unless the verification for an account was made much more stringent. Something like requiring a valid credit card card (doesn't have to have a charge, or just a token charge to cover that cost). Also, while I've suggested the same thing with forcing people to the guidelines, unless you then make them take a test on them, how do you know they read them?

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Surprisingly, I agree with most of this.

Holy crap, so do I.

 

1. The "New to Geocaching?" section on the main page is not prominent enough, and its content is inadequate. Proper searching techniques aren't even mentioned. In my opinion, it requires a total rewrite. It should probably include a short video that stresses proper techniques.

 

I like that idea a lot. Now all we need is for someone to produce a video.

 

For example, Non-conforming caches are unacceptable and will not be listed under any circumstances ... unless they are "grandfathered."

 

I actually take issue with that as well. If a particular land manager doesn't allow geocaching, then who is Groundspeak to allow it? I personally don't agree with the grandfather rule. If there are on going negotiations with a land manager to get them to accept caching it doesn't look good that some caches are still on the property. A few weeks ago I could have used the NYDEC as an example but...

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Good morning everyone!

 

First off like I promised I went today to repair the wall. Got there and after moving a rock or two was met by a maintainance worker from the park. Someone alerted him to me moving the rocks. I spoke with him and said that I had just been walking by checking things out and thought that I would try to repair the damage.

 

He had told me that 2 weeks ago there was a report of damage to the wall. and that it had been noted but they havent been able to repair it becasue of all the other cleanup in the more prominent areas.

 

He did mention that the only new damage was that near the bench and that he wasnt sure how any of the damage happened.

 

This really set my mind at ease but still I was there to do what i had promised. He told me not to worry about it that it should be taken care of in the next few days.

 

I double checked my coords while i was there several times. and they ( according to my GPS) are accurate. Now I know there is margin of error with a GPS we all know this so if someone would like to meet me there and double check against mine that would be great.

 

I also have to archive the cache until I can set out another. It seems that this one was missing. I was a little disturbed but got past it quickly after realizing that much like some of the people here on the forum there are people like that in the real world.

 

After finding this cache gone I took a walk to my other cache. A Tree Grows in Brookdale. And my hunch was correct. That too is MIA.

 

I had to go the the foodstore so I figured I would check the other one. Park and Hide.

 

Yup my feeling was right. That too is MIA.

 

Hey im game I know stuff happens. But this is sooooo far beyond childish and immature it makes me want to puke.

 

If you have a beef with me fine but why ruin the fun for others. Perhaps the person didnt have the forethought or the mental capacity to realize the conciquences. That is truley a shame.

 

Well to all those who are going to be looking for them I'm sorry but some inconsiderate jerk stole em.

 

I will have them back out in a day or so.

 

Take care all and thanks for the learning experience. Guess you taught me a lesson.

 

Peace

 

Saylor -n- Crew

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After finding this cache gone I took a walk to my other cache. A Tree Grows in Brookdale. And my hunch was correct. That too is MIA.

 

I had to go the the foodstore so I figured I would check the other one. Park and Hide.

 

Yup my feeling was right. That too is MIA.

 

Hey im game I know stuff happens. But this is sooooo far beyond childish and immature it makes me want to puke.

 

If you have a beef with me fine but why ruin the fun for others. Perhaps the person didnt have the forethought or the mental capacity to realize the conciquences. That is truley a shame.

 

Well to all those who are going to be looking for them I'm sorry but some inconsiderate jerk stole em.

 

I will have them back out in a day or so.

 

That is absolutely juvenile. Sorry to hear about that. The sad thing is that it had to be someone who is involved in this thread, or at least frequents this forum. Just when you think you know poeple :blink: .

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One thing is for sure, this was no accident. To have a micro go missing is I would guess a fairly common occurence. I know of two in the last 6 or 7 months, just in this area alone. But the chance of muggles finding 3 caches and all belonging to the same owner, now we are talking exponential numbers. I said in an earlier post, I don't believe in coincidence (unless you hit the lottery twice in a week.) This is obviously the work of a rogue cacher. You couldn't possibly find those micros without the knowledge of the existance of this website AND a GPS unit. Come on folks, this is the Christmas Season and someone is not acting in a Christian fashion. (No political incorrectness intended here, and no matter who you call your God, you can still act in what could be considered a Christianlike manner.) Saylor, I'll give you credit man, I would be sooooo ticked if someone muggled my caches. Not to give the rogue cacher/Pirate any ideas, but if all of a sudden my caches go missing, I would be tempted to just walk away. And why? Because it's ONLY A GAME. And a word to the pirate: If you muggle all the caches you find, you just ruin the game for everyone, including yourself. We have to keep our heads here, and I'll telll you why. If I think Cacher A is muggling my caches and Cacher B thinks Cacher A is muggling his caches, and so on and so forth, and retribution becomes the word of the day, ALL THE CACHES WILL GET MUGGLED. Let's all at least act like responsible adults and move on and learn from this bad experience. Saylor, if you need more containers for your micros, I may be able to help you out. Just email me. ( I figure with digital cameras becoming so popular, someday I'll be able to sell 35mm film cannisters for a profit. LOL) Peace to all, and have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Happy Holidays to all others. <<<That's as politically correct as I can get. :anicute:

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Hey Saylor, I am headed over there tomorrow (today) Sunday. I have some of the clear canisters that don't leak as quickly if you are interested, LMK. I only live a mile away.

Yeah, film canisters suck. They leak and I've found nothing but wet logs in the things. Try the match containers sold in Walmart, or camping supply stores for about a buck. They're usually orange, but a little camo duct tape can take care of that. Totally waterproof. Or consider using National Geographic Adventure Paper for your logs. Totally waterproof. I also picked a bunch of tiny Nalgene vials which look like they will make very good micro, micros. I can mail you a few.

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Hey thanks for the offer but i have a bunch of the clear ones Im getting sticker paper for my printer and im going to make some camo stickers with it. Thanks for the offer tho. stop by anyway if ya like. We dont get much company here! At least alive that is. LOL

 

Thanks for the suggestions brian ill take a look. Was thinking that the ground speak micros looked good but..... if they gonna disappear then no sense in getting it. would cost too much

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