Caches In Place Of Spiritual Significance?

November 28, 2004

Hi all,

I understand that many people are annoyed by religious cards left in caches, and I can understand that. I also recognize that many folks would prefer not to visit caches in places that suggest religion, and I respect that as well. But I do have a question: does that make these places off-limits if we receive permission?

I have in mind a local shrine that is the most peaceful, amazing spot. The spiritual leaders there seemed very interested in what Geocaching was, and showed interest in encouraging people to visit the shrine, even through this hobby. There is no entrance fee to the shrine, and no blatent places asking for donations.

I was wondering whether it would be unacceptable to create a cache here, and post very clearly on the webpage that this is a cache in a Christian-based sanctuary, and if they did not agree with that, they didn't have to visit.

What's the concensus on this? Would this be a cache that would never be approved anyway? I am just curious and thought I'd start a brief discussion on this. It would be our 10th cache placement, and I thought this place fit the geocaching description of beauty and peacefullness.

November 28, 2004

is it IN the shrine or AROUND the shrine. I doubt it would be approved if it was INSIDE. I'd have no problem with it, but TPTB are a ticky bunch.

November 28, 2004

is it IN the shrine or AROUND the shrine. I doubt it would be approved if it was INSIDE. I'd have no problem with it, but TPTB are a ticky bunch.

I was actually thinking within the shrine or on the *very* outskirts of it. I'm not sure how to contact the approvers to ask them the question directly about approval. I don't want to bother with placing it, creating the cache page, and then having to remove it if they know from the outset it is not an allowable thing.

November 28, 2004

I kinda doubt they will approve it. They have some very strange/idiotic rules around here..lol

2.3k · November 28, 2004

I kinda doubt they will approve it. They have some very strange/idiotic rules around here..lol

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November 28, 2004

Personally, I think finding myself at a beautiful seaside vista, or at the top of ridge - glimpsing a deer or a beautiful forest setting is as spiritual as it can get for me. So where is the harm in trying? If the place that you have in mind is a worthwhile placement and a cache would be approved by the cache admin. than there is no issue.

I would love to find myself at any 'spiritual' place that I would not have gone to if not for geocaching.

And remember, I can choose which caches I do, and which I don't.

November 28, 2004

As long as there is a clear description in the posting, I think it is OK. My preference would be for it to be on the outside so I don’t disrupt anyone. I’d hate to interrupt an “I do” with a “Where’s the cache?”. MS

4.7k · November 28, 2004

i've been to caches at a couple religious area. i was uncomfortable with the cache where they'd like to have you take the tour and they'd like to convert you, and i felt completely at home with the ones where they don't encourage converts or ask for donations.

one felt opressive and the otheres felt really, really nice.

I kinda doubt they will approve it. They have some very strange/idiotic rules around here..lol

i bet there's someone who gets put on 24 hour modding.

who wants to bet i do too?

Edited November 28, 2004 by flask

7.2k · November 28, 2004

Is it a "spiritual place" or a "evangelical place?"

They allow postings of cemeteries and churches. I know they've nixed posting of these kind of caches which asked for a donation before. (Might want to search on "shrine," that might find that old, old thread.)

I don't mind "spiritual." What I do mind is "evangelical."

I have to echo 2 Disney Characters, though. Year before last, a hike to the top of mountain got me reflective more than any religion-based location has ever done.

November 28, 2004

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=85129&view=getnewpost

By my definition, it is spiritual. I definitely agree that more spirituality can be found in a woodland or ocean shore than by a man-made statue. For sure. But this is a peaceful, wood-edged shrine. No one is there to pull you in. No one will preach by your side. It's never busy when we go there to walk the grounds. It is peaceful and there is much solitude.

This is how I would describe it:

Quiet, natural, paved and dirt roads. It has large stations of the cross which you follow from one to the other along a wooded path. These statues can be visited (and used as part of an offset cache). There is also a labyrinth, and about 100 stairs that lead up to a larger-than-life sized statue Jesus on the cross (HUGE!), and much more. There is a cliff-side statue of Mary appearing to 2 children. There are benches, trees, serenity. A votive chapel for those who are interested. There is an icon museum by the gift shop, kinda neat, but that is tucked out of the way.

We have put 9 other caches in the woods and on the shore. We thought this one might be a bit out of the ordinary. In season, it is loaded with colorful flowers, and is beautifully manicured. If you go to this page and click on "St. Anne Shrine" and then "Points of Interest" on the right, you will see some of the photos of the shrine grounds/statues. Do you think this is too religion-themed for geocachers?

If this was a cache that ever were to be considered, I'd definitely want to post something prominently on the cache page about it being a Christian-related theme, and if they had discomfort with such surroundings, that this is an optional cache to visit and they may want to consider another cache to visit if there were any misgivings about coming to a Christian-themed cache placement.

I do tend to find myself a more spiritual than religious person, but I also find peace and beauty in this place and thought it would be neat to share it.

Does anyone know whether there is a way to contact approvers for their opinions on this, please? When I go to the "Contact Us" page, it sends me to the FAQ page which doesn't address this, as well as directs me to these forums for advice.

Thanks for all your help.

]

(edited for link...hope it works...)

Edited November 28, 2004 by Birdsong-n-Bud

November 28, 2004

I would have no problem with finding myself near a religous site if I was warned of it in the site description. This can be done without giving away the specific location of the cache. If we can say "at the park," or "just off the jogging trail" and it is the only jogging trail or park in the town then what is wrong with saying "near the temple" or "near the Xyothian Church?"

For myself, I am thinking of trying to get permission to put a cache on the grounds of a monastery which was also the scene of a minor civil war skirmish.

7.2k · November 28, 2004

Look at the bottom of your approved caches. You will find the person who approved your caches. The one who approved most of them will likely be the one who will be reviewing this one. Contact them and run it past them.

November 28, 2004

Look at the bottom of your approved caches. You will find the person who approved your caches. The one who approved most of them will likely be the one who will be reviewing this one. Contact them and run it past them.

Ahhhh, thank you. That is a good lead. I know who to contact. Many thanks! :lol:

November 28, 2004

I think it would be OK

Edited November 28, 2004 by Beta Test

November 28, 2004

The place sounds mavelous! I always appreciate a good walk around a labyrinth AND a cache too?? Go for it!! Good luck!

November 28, 2004

Please let us know the outcome. If it is not approved, I would also like to know the reason for disapproval. Many thanks!

November 28, 2004

I am against religious tracts in caches as they seem inherently prosthelatyzing (i know its speeled rong but im too lazy to look it up right now) but a church or a monastary has art and architecture and gardens that can be admired......just be sure to place cache in a place where it wont be disturbed by churchs gardeners and wont result in this local paper headline

"Man and Woman arrested after being found in bush's behind local church: desecration of holy ground! public execution tommorrow bring the kiddies"

November 28, 2004

I am against religious tracts in caches as they seem inherently prosthelatyzing (

How would leading someone to a site like this be different than sending them to a beach? I think they are both beautiful. Neither one would result in anyone knocking on your door.

Still, I understand this wouldn't be a cache for everyone. But neither would one on the side of a cliff. ::shrug:: Can't please 'em all, but can please some of 'em some of the time. <g>

November 28, 2004

Leave it up to a persons discretion. If they would want to go there then let them go. If not its no skin off your back. If the property owners agree then its all right by everyone elses standards.

3.9k · November 29, 2004

I am against religious tracts in caches as they seem inherently prosthelatyzing (

How would leading someone to a site like this be different than sending them to a beach? I think they are both beautiful. Neither one would result in anyone knocking on your door.

Still, I understand this wouldn't be a cache for everyone. But neither would one on the side of a cliff. ::shrug:: Can't please 'em all, but can please some of 'em some of the time. <g>

Well said.

El Diablo

6.5k · November 29, 2004

I am against religious tracts in caches as they seem inherently prosthelatyzing

I like to trade Sweet Potato tracts when I find religious tracts in caches. No, really I do.

If this is truly a beautiful unique site, you have been given permission to hide a cache there, and the purpose is not to promote any religious agneda it should get approved. CR haas already shown you how to contact the person most likely to (not) approve this.

I have found many of NashvilleJoe's Steeplechase series and never once felt compelled to enter the churches. :lol:

38.2k · November 29, 2004

As others said as long as its not a place where you're going to be accosted by people trying to convert you, I don't see a problem. I recall searching for a few letterboxes that were placed on the grounds of the Chautauqua Institution, which is a religious retreat. It was a beautiful and historic area and I really enjoyed the hunt and walking around the grounds. In fact I thought at the time that it would be a great place for a cache or two, but it was too far from home for me to consider placing one.

Which brings to mind one issue. Even if your admin thinks its a fine idea, do you have permission? This sounds like its privately owned and they might not appreciate a geocache on the grounds.

November 29, 2004

As a reference check out the California cache below. This one has had no problems in the Santa Clara, CA area where I live. Certainly it's a shrine of sorts but it's also a local landmark well known by those around here. I'm sure a quick review could find many other precedents. If you use discretion and keep in mind other sensibilities I think you should be fine.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...47-71214dbbc60f

/Lefty

Edited November 29, 2004 by KennyHannahJacob

1.9k · November 29, 2004

If you had explicit written permission then I say it sounds cool and i would hunt it. Anything else, I would be hesitant to hide it if I were you. Also make sure more than just 1 person knows about it at the location.

November 29, 2004

If you had explicit written permission then I say it sounds cool and i would hunt it. Anything else, I would be hesitant to hide it if I were you. Also make sure more than just 1 person knows about it at the location.

Thanks for your replies, everyone.

Yes, I did get permission from the leaders at the shrine itself when I visited there this weekend, but would prefer to talk to one more priest to explain it, and I was told that he would likely be very excited about the idea. The others I talked with seemed very excited about the idea. But like mentioned here, I wanted to make sure all knew about this idea, so no one was thrown by it or upset by it. I know this place is close to their heart, and I don't want to make anything less of it to them. I can swing by and talk to him next weekend, and will let you know how it turns out. He's a nice guy.

I heard from the geocaching approver this morning. May I note here that I have had the most positive experience in my submissions and correspondences with him? Even when I made mistakes, he is gracious in leading me in the right direction, and this is no exception. He is terriific, and geocaching.com is lucky to have him as a volunteer. He reflects so well on the hobby's leaders.

He led me to the online guidelines that mention no solicitations and how that included political or religious agendas, and how exceptions may sometimes be made. I must make it very clear on the cache page that a solicitation is not being made and make sure people do not perceive it that way. He had a great idea: that if this was used as an offset or multi that required going into the grounds to get the clues, that folks could have the option to email me instead of going there to get the clues if they felt uncomfortable going there seeking clues to the physical cache.

I think that is an excellent idea, and I think that would make this cache available to those who may not have a Christian-based belief system and do not wish to be exposed to those surroundings. I have some ideas running around in my head about how to complete this cache, and I will wander about to find the best physical placement for the final cache that would be acceptable to those who don't want to wander by religious artifacts. I do think that for those who would enjoy this type of thing, this would be a beautiful, peaceful hike and cache journey; yet for those who would not care for any suggestions of religion, it could be another find they could get in a pretty woods without finding offense in their surroundings.

I thank you all for your great ideas, and for sharing your feelings about whether or not you would visit a cache like this. If you're interested, I can show you how it turns out. Thanks for your help.

(edited for embarrassing spelling error, lol)

Respectfully,

Edited November 29, 2004 by Birdsong-n-Bud

November 29, 2004

As a reference check out the California cache below. This one has had no problems in the Santa Clara, CA area where I live. Certainly it's a shrine of sorts but it's also a local landmark well known by those around here. I'm sure a quick review could find many other precedents. If you use discretion and keep in mind other sensibilities I think you should be fine.

Wow, Lefty, thank you for leading me toward that cache page! That was pretty awesome! And it gives me hope! Thanks for the direction.

38.2k · November 29, 2004

May I note here that I have had the most positive experience in my submissions and correspondences with him? Even when I made mistakes, he is gracious in leading me in the right direction, and this is no exception. He is terriific, and geocaching.com is lucky to have him as a volunteer. He reflects so well on the hobby's leaders.

Who is he? Get him out of that job, he'll make the other approvers look bad!!!

Just kidding, just kidding.

I think that is an excellent idea, and I think that would make this cache available to those who may not have a Christian-based belief system and do not wish to be exposed to those surroundings. I have some ideas running around in my head about how to complete this cache, and I will wander about to find the best physical placement for the final cache that would be acceptable to those who don't want to wander by religious artifacts. I do think that for those who would enjoy this type of thing, this would be a beautiful, peaceful hike and cache journey; yet for those who would not care for any suggestions of religion, it could be another find they could get in a pretty woods without finding offense in their surroundings.

I think this would be a mistake. If the point is to bring people to this interesting place, giving people a way around it defeats the purpose of the cache. If people are so small minded that they will be offended by the sight of a religious statue, that's their problem. There are plenty of other caches for them to find. You don't have to be religious to enjoy a cache like this. I'm not and I'm sure I probably would.

Edited November 29, 2004 by briansnat

November 29, 2004

I think this would be a great location. Many people worship different things. Some people worship nature. Not that i agree with that, but do we then eliminate caches in the woods? If someone would be disturbed spiritually by going there, then dont go. I'm solid enough in my believes that viewing a church is not going to cause my concern.

Part of the fun and interest in geocaching is visting places you would not normally go. This place you mention is probably not a place I would visit outside of geocaching. But the opportunity to see a place such as this without the having to attend one of there services would be fine.

2.5k · November 29, 2004

It isn't always small minded ness...

Just please, please, please make sure you mark the page well... As a non-christian, I'd be extremely peeved to discover while hunting it that the cache I'm hunting takes me to the stations of the cross or a fifty foot jesus replica. No, I'm not closed minded, I just don't like being surprised by things like that.

Personally, I think you should place the cache right at the entrance. You've still reached your goal of getting people there. It's then their decision from there if they want to go explore the sight or just log the smilie.

November 29, 2004

I don't see the big deal. If you make it very clear in the cache description, what the place is...and that it's a religious/spiritual place...then if someone doesn't like a place like that, they can just avoid that cache. Anyone that goes to that cache, and then complains about it being religious, needs their head examined.

6.5k · November 29, 2004

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...47-71214dbbc60f

Taken from the cache page linked above: <SNIP>In Santa Clara, California: a statue which some have called "the awesome Madonna," stands higher than most three-story buildings. The 7200-pound statue rises to a height of thirty-two feet and rests on a twelve-foot landscaped mound. After completion in the artist's Wilmington, Delaware, studio in 1982, the statue was exhibited in Wilmington, Philadelphia, and Chicago en route to its permanent location. <SNIP>

OK, I have a slightly twisted outlook, but my first thought after reading this was of a 'slightly' :lol: inebriated midwesterner somewhere along the delivery route between Chicago and Santa Clara, stumbling out of his local after closing and seeing this vision pass by on the delivery truck.

What would his reaction have been?

apologies to lefty for messing with his post.

November 29, 2004

.....I think this would be a mistake. If the point is to bring people to this interesting place, giving people a way around it defeats the purpose of the cache. If people are so small minded that they will be offended by the sight of a religious statue, that's their problem. There are plenty of other caches for them to find. You don't have to be religious to enjoy a cache like this. I'm not and I'm sure I probably would.

I absolutely have to agree with this quote. If you are going to the effort to create what sounds like a very special cache then it should be respected for what you intend it to be. Let those who can't deal with that pass it by.

By all means mention enough in the description to allow that to happen but to allow people to pass by part of the experience and still 'score' the cache would be to demean the effort that you are making to provide an interesting experience.

Best of luck with it.

November 29, 2004

I'm anti-religious myself, but if the location is as described I'd probably visit the cache. After all, plenty of Christians visit my 'sacred' mountains, forests, canyons, and meadows. Can the cache be placed on the shrine grounds somewhere away from the icons? I'd hate to distract or disturb someone's religious or spiritual visitation.

I wouldn't want to be 'accosted' (as Brainsnat put it) by 'church-pushers' (my phrase). And I wouldn't want to be hit up for a donation. But it doesn't seem like that sort of place, based on your description. Priests and other religious people are interested in many of the same things as anyone else - technology and computers, the outdoors, etc. If they're willing to allow a cache on their property, it's very generous of them and I'm sure it would be appreciated.

Best Wishes,

-Bob

November 29, 2004

This all reminds me of a Dave Barry Quote:

"Have you ever noticed that everyone wants to share their religion with you, but no one wants you to share yours with them?"

Shannon

VegasCacheHounds

Edited November 29, 2004 by VegasCacheHounds

24.7k · December 1, 2004

About everyplace that is nice on Gods green earth is sacred to someone somehow for some reason.

Shoshoni would bury their dead where they lay. That becomes sacred ground. Since they died where they lived and they lived where there was water and food most of our scenic locations are sacred and the only reason a location may not be is that the memory has been lost to the sands of time.

In other words you just can worry about this kind of thing for any typical cache location. Inside a church hidden in the alter is probably a bit much, but I'm talking outdoors areas.

December 2, 2004

The spiritual leaders there seemed very interested in what Geocaching was, and showed interest in encouraging people to visit the shrine, even through this hobby.

If I am not reading more into this than it says, it sounds to me like you have been given the go ahead by the property owners/stewards. If that is the case and you list as you described, I would certainly say it should be approved.

Edited December 2, 2004 by PC Medic

December 2, 2004

Sounds to me like you have done your homework on this cache. Let us know when it is in place.

6.4k · December 2, 2004

I'd be extremely peeved to discover while hunting it that the cache I'm hunting takes me to the stations of the cross or a fifty foot jesus replica. No, I'm not closed minded, I just don't like being surprised by things like that.

I AM a Christian (and a registered republican), and I would still be peeved if the cache made me do all the stations of the cross, for example. Take me to a beautiful location, let me explore the artwork, but please keep religion out of it. When I'm out geocaching, I want to see cool new places and find a cache. If I want to find religion, I will find it on my own terms.

6.4k · December 2, 2004

Let me add this:

My opinon actually has very little to do with religion.

When I'm geocaching, I want to find the cache.

If I want to make a charitable donation, I know who to write the check out to.

If I want to go to Starbucks for coffee, I know where it is.

If I need to talk to God, I know where to find Him.

I don't need or want a geocache to try and do this things for me. The only thing I want a geocache to do is bring me to someplace interesting and hold a dry log for me to sign. Everything else I can do better on my own.

December 2, 2004

If I need to talk to God, I know where to find Him. I don't need or want a geocache to try and do this things for me. The only thing I want a geocache to do is bring me to someplace interesting and hold a dry log for me to sign. Everything else I can do better on my own.

I guess I need to make it clear that I am not trying to bring anyone "to God" here any more than I would by sending them to the woods or the beach to a cache. I just find this an incredible local place of beauty and tranquility.

I've been sent to local statues for a cache, and they were much less significant in "ahhh" value than this place would be. I don't expect anyone to have an epiphany, I just want to take them to a beautiful spot.

I guess it seems puzzling to me how some folks will find beauty in any place except if there is a slight suggestion of religion, they will assume there is a conversion conspiracy in place. ::shrug::

Not at all. I just think it is gorgeous there and beautifully manicured. Quite frankly, I would find it a neat experience to go somewhere of Native American significance, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan....whatever. If it is beautiful, take me there. I won't expect they want a donation from me or a religious conversion. But I do look for beauty, and I am the type that does look for history in items -- without thinking I need to convert. I like to learn to expand the ole' brain. But I also love beautiful places, and that includes more than just woods. There is a much broader definition of beauty.

Just my two cents, but I do need to make it clear that I am not conspiring to suck anyone into some religious scheme. Not at all. I will guarantee that this is prettier than a film canister under a city bench. I try to make our caches as varied as possible, so no two visits are a "repeat experience." We have some pretty unusual stuff out there, and just wanted to keep things varied and fun.

Know what I mean? If it was all about a tupperware container under a rock in the woods every time, I would think that would get old pretty quick. We try to make the journey one that hasn't been taken before.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Birdsong-n-Bud

6.4k · December 2, 2004

I guess it seems puzzling to me how some folks will find beauty in any place except if there is a slight suggestion of religion, they will assume there is a conversion conspiracy in place. ::shrug::

Hmmm... think you missed my point slightly?

You can still bring me to what sounds like a very nice spot from your description without sticking the religion in my face. Taking me to a tranquil place that happens to take me past the stations of the cross on the way is one thing. I can ignore them, I can ponder their religious significance, or I can appreciate them as art. My choice. Forcing me to do them as part of a multi or puzzle is different.

Maybe it's just me, and I'm all alone here, but if I happened to be doing a cache nearby, and I saw those stations of the cross, I would most certainly check them out (probably spending more time there then looking for the cache), but if I was forced to do them I would certainly be annoyed and might skip the cache altogether.

This cache is just one of several I've done that's in a place such as you describe. It brought me there without the need to push the religion aspect on me.

If it was all about a tupperware container under a rock in the woods every time, I would think that would get old pretty quick.

If that's all it was about, maybe it would (I dunno, I've found quite a few tupperware containers in the last 3yrs and it's not even close to getting "old" yet).

For me anyway, it's about the journey TO the tupperware under the rock. It's not about religion. If I happen to see something along that journey that intrigues me, challenges me, interests me, teaches me, inspires me, or awes me, it's a great journey. If there is something like that at your cache location, I would much rather be pleasently surprised by it, rather then having it rammed down my throat.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Mopar

December 2, 2004

You can still bring me to what sounds like a very nice spot from your description without sticking the religion in my face. Taking me to a tranquil place that happens to take me past the stations of the cross on the way is one thing. I can ignore them, I can ponder their religious significance, or I can appreciate them as art. My choice. Forcing me to do them as part of a multi or puzzle is different.

Ahhh, understood. I'm with you, I wouldn't want to do the stations of the cross for a cache, either.

I did want to make it a multicache, but would not even consider doing every station of the cross. I was thinking more 2 or 3 legs, just to make it into a varied hike, visiting the labyrinth, visiting a statue with a clue, going to the cache. That sort of thing. Would that be offensive, do you think?

I'll also be sure to make it available as a cache alone to anyone who doesn't want to expose themselves or their kids to anything related to religion. I do respect that not every cache is for everyone. Heck, if someone could pull a cache out of a cliffside for me if I find the crack it's in (me, who is terrified of heights and would rather jump in a pile of dog doo than scale down a huge rock), I'd really appreciate that climbing help. So this is sort of my way of "pulling the cache out for them if they don't want to climb the cliff." They'll miss the full experience, but my gut tells me that more people will want the journey rather than just the destination. I have to resign to the fact that I'll likely never be able to do a scuba cache, and would never take credit for one of those babies, as I will miss the *entire* experience -- both the journey and the destination. I'll have to live vicariously through others.

From the folks who have visited our multi's or our puzzle cache and were stumped, more came back to the cache on their own than asking me in an email for clues (one person so far has emailed me for a clue). I have faith in geocachers.

I don't mind giving the final leg to someone who takes offense to seeing anything related to Jesus. I think in the meantime, many more will appreciate the tranquility of the place and perhaps some history. If they find God there, my feeling is that they'd already "found" him. I don't think I'll be able to give anyone a profound experience, just a fun and peaceful walk.

And I wholly agree with you. The walks TO the tupperware containers is what makes this the great hobby it is. I'll try to be very sensitive to making sure people don't feel I'm ramming religion down their throat. I think that is the question I internally wondered about when I posted my original query here. I was really concerned about this cache possibly polluting the geocaching fun if someone felt it was not a positive experience. I definitely dont want this to be a bad experience.

(Thanks for clarifying).

6.5k · December 2, 2004

I AM a Christian (and a registered republican), and I would still be peeved if the cache made me do all the stations of the cross, for example. Take me to a beautiful location, let me explore the artwork, but please keep religion out of it. When I'm out geocaching, I want to see cool new places and find a cache. If I want to find religion, I will find it on my own terms.

Well there you go again. Ruining a perfectly good discussion about religion and geocaching by dragging politics into the conversation. :laughing: :huh:

December 2, 2004

I've gone to a cache similar to what you describe as the one you want to create. It was at the edge of the grounds of a Hindu temple. There was nobody there expecting to convert anyone or even ask that you go anywhere near or in the temple. It was beautiful tho, and I was glad to have visted. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...62-c3a736bed834

December 2, 2004

I've gone to a cache similar to what you describe as the one you want to create. It was at the edge of the grounds of a Hindu temple.

Oh, wow! Thank you for posting that link! That is exactly the type of thing I have in mind. Wow. I wish that cache was on the East Coast. That's one that I would love to see in real life.

That was a very well-visited cache, too!

Thanks for bringing my attention to it. I think I will format mine in the same respectful manner they managed to do.

December 3, 2004

Mopar, I don't see it as Birdsong trying to ram God down people's throats. Quite the opposite, she was concerned that it might appear as if she were trying to do just that.

Birdsong, this sounds like a great place. Is there a way to set up the cache so that the religious statues are not included in the puzzle? In other words, just use different parts of the woods for different legs if you want to make it a multi, but not the statues. I realize that you want to take people to certain areas, but if you can work around people having to view the statues, or anything religious, I think that would be best, IMHO.

I do think most people would want to explore the area further even though not required for the cache. Simply because it sounds beautiful. Katydid

December 3, 2004

Is there a way to set up the cache so that the religious statues are not included in the puzzle? In other words, just use different parts of the woods for different legs if you want to make it a multi, but not the statues.

This means a lot coming from you. Yes, I think I can manage that, certainly. You've given me some ideas. Actually, that might be wiser -- if someone happens to be praying near a statue, that might make it tough to approach the cache. I am going to take your advice.

Thank you. I have a plan in mind.

6.4k · December 3, 2004

Mopar, I don't see it as Birdsong trying to ram God down people's throats. Quite the opposite, she was concerned that it might appear as if she were trying to do just that.

Birdsong, this sounds like a great place. Is there a way to set up the cache so that the religious statues are not included in the puzzle? In other words, just use different parts of the woods for different legs if you want to make it a multi, but not the statues. I realize that you want to take people to certain areas, but if you can work around people having to view the statues, or anything religious, I think that would be best, IMHO.

I do think most people would want to explore the area further even though not required for the cache. Simply because it sounds beautiful. Katydid

Katy, I understood that was not her intent right from the start. However we all know that sometimes what you intended isn't how everyone else takes it. I was merely trying to get the same point across you just did (and you did it much better) that you can leave the religious component out of the cache and still bring someone to a special place while allowing each person to experience it on their own level. FWIW, this sounds like it's going to be a great spot, and something to add to my "todo" list when I get up there.

December 4, 2004

So true Mopar, words on the screen are so often misinterpretted.

Looking forward to this cache, birdsong. Perhaps you can include coords to the huge Jesus statue on the cache page for those that want to check it out. I, for one, would like to see that.

3.9k · December 4, 2004

I've actually been thinking of placing a cache in a similar location near me. It's an outdoor shrine. Personally I dodn't care what anyone thinks, I know it was a great spot with an amazing view, very peaceful, great hike, yada yada yada. I will take into consideration some of the points raised here, however. The bottom line, is if the religious aspects of the area are going to bug someone then they don't have to do the cache.

Caches In Place Of Spiritual Significance?

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