Good News For Uk Cachers....

[+Eckington]

I have been contacted by a staff member of CairnGorm Mountain Ltd about the placing of caches on their land.

 

They are very happy to welcome cachers to place a cache on the land they own in the Cairngorm area providing the cache owner works in liaison with them to prevent any likelihood of damage to ecologically sensitive sites, and follows the usual gc.com guidelines.

 

Should any cacher wish to place a cache in this area please make contact with the Cairngorm Ranger Service. Their Head Ranger, Nic Bullivant, will then consider the request.

 

He can be contacted on 01479 861703 or ranger@cairngormmountain.com

 

Please indicate on any cache submission, by way of a note to reviewer, that you have been in contact and permission has been granted, Lactodorum and myself will have a map of the boundaries of the Cairngorm Estate and I will pass a copy of the same onto the GAGB.

 

Many thanks to all at CairnGorm Ltd who have made this possible.

[+Teasel]

That's great news, well done! Is this just for the whole Cairngorm estate, or just the area leased by CairnGorm Mountain Ltd for the ski resort? Either way, it's a lovely bit of land!

[+Firth of Forth]

Excellent news! Has Highland Nick had a hand in this I wonder? Lots more places for him to hide caches now, to add to the 24 he already has!

Could this help with 2202's idea of combining skiing and caching?

Edited November 24, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+The Wombles]

By 'Eck, well done

[+Firth of Forth]

This is taken from a cache placed on Cairngorm by the Sky High Boys:

"November 23 by Eckington (3 found)

I have been contacted by the landowners of the property on which the cache is located:

"It has come to our attention that a cache has been made on the Cairngorm Estate, on ground that is designated under both UK and EU law as being of high conservation value (SSSI, SPA and cSAC). It would appear that at no stage has permission been sought for these caches. This is contrary to the guidelines given on your website and I am therefore informing you of our intention to remove the cache in Coire an Lochain, placed on 27.07.2002 by sky high boys.

 

It is sad to have to interfere with what would appear to be a commendable sport, encouraging people to get out and about in the open, but in this situation the ground chosen is not appropriate for such an activity and we are obliged to maintain the high conservation value of the estate."

 

In view of this I am archiving the cache."

 

So is the issue here that permission was not sought for this particular cache, or that the exact spot on Cairngorm was not suitable?

[+Bill D (wwh)]

Firth of Forth wrote:

So is the issue here that permission was not sought for this particular cache, or that the exact spot on Cairngorm was not suitable?

As I understand it, the issue here was the exact location. The cache was placed in a very environmentally sensitive area, and Cairngorm Mountain Ltd want permission to be asked in advance to avoid this situation occuring again.

[+Firth of Forth]

So, is this one, which is in a completely different place, also in a particularly sensitive area?

Edited November 29, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+Bill D (wwh)]

Firth of Forth wrote:

So, is this one, which is in a completely different place, also in a particularly sensitive area?

I believe so, yes. GAGB, of which I'm a committee member, were contacted by Cairngorm Mountain Ltd about both these caches, which the landowner says are in unsuitable locations. GAGB act as a contact point in instances like this, and we endeavour to put the relevant parties in touch to discuss the issue. It is not our policy to become involved in the issue unless we are specifically asked to assist, so I know no more than I've already said about the details.

 

I don't know the Cairngorms, but the following from the National Trust for Scotland's site seems to suggest that a great deal of the area is environmentally important, so perhaps it's not surprising that two caches should have been found to be in inappropriate spots:

 

---

The Cairngorms are nationally important for their montane flora, with 77 out of a total of 118 montane species in Scotland found here. 5 species and 12 hybrids listed in the Red Data Book and 28 national scarce species are also found here. Parts of the Estate have been designated - National Nature Reserve (NNR); Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI; Ramsar Site; candidate Special Area for Conservation and proposed Special Protection Area (SPA) - this shows how important the Estate is in national terms and European terms for its flora and fauna.

---

 

All that notwithstanding, I think Eckington's original post in this thread makes it quite clear that Cairngorm Mountain Ltd are quite happy to have caches there, provided that permission is applied for first so that the proposed location can be approved by them.

[+Firth of Forth]

I've since had an email from Eckington. Apparently Highland Nick's cache isn't actually on land owned by Cairngorm Mountain Litd. I have done this cache, and it is alongside one of the many well walked paths from one of the ski lifts. The issue for this one appears to be that the approvers are requesting that permission be sought from the Forestry Commission. Once again (and I don't really want to stir up the debate that has already appeared here on the Forums) it raises the issue of whether permission for the placement of caches is always necessary in Scotland, because the laws of access are different.

[+Eckington]

I have no intimate knowledge of the law. I have great access to a person with great knowledge of English Common Law, and Criminal Law, who I refer to when I need.

 

Frankly this whole issue of permission is a can of worms that is very easily upset, and, quite frankly, I am tired of getting into wrangles about it.

 

Gc.com guidelines state that, prior to submission of a cache, permission of the landowner must be obtained. It is also assumed that this has been done.

 

With the increasing pressure on reviewers of UK caches to ensure that permissions are so obtained, and the concommittant check on the databases that we and GAGB possess before we can give a positive review, I am beginning to doubt as to whether or not I can maintain an effective review of UK caches.

 

That being so I fear the UK caching community may lose one of its reviewers.

 

Cheers and cache Well,

 

Eckington

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

it raises the issue of whether permission for the placement of caches is always necessary in Scotland, because the laws of access are different.

 

Don't forget at the end of the day, the landowner has the right to remove a cache, especially if it's been placed with out permission. Possibly alienating someone who might have been pro caching if just asked! Access doesn't really come into it, in the end we're taking part in an activity on someone else's land, and it's just common courtesy to ask permission first!

 

Dave

[+The Forester]

especially if it's been placed with out permission. Possibly alienating someone who might have been pro caching if just asked!

That's a very good point.

 

As I understand it (and I may be wrong), the rule about obtaining landowner permission is a Geocaching.com rule, not a matter of English or Scots Law.

 

So far as I know (and I don't know much) we in Scotland do not have a dispensation from the obligation to obtain permission.

 

When I attended the Shropshire Cache Bashe earlier this year, I was greatly impressed by the success cacheplacers had had when bringing major landowners, such as the National Trust and the Forestry Commission and County Councils, onto geocaching's side by the simple courtesy of requesting permission and responding to personal emails.

 

As was eloquently expressed by someone who complained about cache which had been placed in Royal parkland without permission from the relevant authorities: "if the cache was found by a gardener or warden, then I think it could cause problems for geocaching".

[+Jodel]

Ok, a question.

 

How do I find out who owns a particular piece of bleak Scottish moorland in the middle of nowhere?

[markandlynn]

If we all as a group pop over to the American forums you will see lots of threads appearing regarding permision from landowners and even a thread titled when will geocaching end. Some parts of the US are permanently blocked from having geocaches (even virtuals are banned) on them due to problems that occured in the earlier days of geo caching. The law in Scotland is to do with the right to roam in the wonderfull scenery which has historically been privately owned and closed off to walkers. This legislation is regarded as one of the best in the world and I wish it was adopted everywhere else in the UK. I can not see any reference to the right to hide boxes of stuff in the hills for others to find in this legislation. To find out about land owners i believe here and here would be my first port of call to find out who owns what. Also ordnance survey can help with details of what land is owned by the larger bodies. We all have acces to the internet and to OS maps. Surely some research before submitting a cache is not to much to ask. When we discussed geo caching with the wildlife trust we had to chose a second location as the one we asked for originally had several unique plants to the area being protected in it and as such was an unsuitable location to hide a cache. Just like the examples qouted above. SSSI's etc are special places allready and just like earthcaches may warrant the approval of a locationless cache for the spot.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

SSSI's etc are special places allready and just like earthcaches may warrant the approval of a locationless cache for the spot.

 

I know that we are all aware of the special status of SSSI's, but how many are aware that you not only need the landowners permission to place a cache in one. You also have to have the approval of the regulatory Agency for the area, in England that would I believe be the Countryside Agency, whilst here in Wales it's the CCW. The regulatory Agency has final approval over all activitys in SSSI's, even if it is just footpath repair by the landowner. The reson that I know this for certain, is because I have a cache in a SSSI, which involved a site inspection with a member of CCW. Who explained the why I had to have their approval (note "Aproval" not "permission").

 

Also for a very quick guide to Open Access have a look Here Lactodorums Rescorces pages, where you will find a rough guide to ROWS(Rights of Way) and Open Access in England and Wales, (Sorry Scotland, as your laws are different to England and Wales who share the same laws, I only reserched thoose that apply to Wales).

 

Dave

[+Jodel]

I should have added "without having to pay £10 for every search!"

 

OS maps are a waste of space. I e-mailed the Forrestry commission about hiding a cache on one of their properties (at least my upto date map thought it was theirs) to be told that they had sold it "years ago".

[+Team Ullium]

I should have added "without having to pay £10 for every search!"

 

OS maps are a waste of space. I e-mailed the Forrestry commission about hiding a cache on one of their properties (at least my upto date map thought it was theirs) to be told that they had sold it "years ago".

Have you tried here Jodel??

 

Ullium.

[+Jodel]

Ullium, thanks for that link. I have now tried it and my only comment is that I can do a better job on Fife than them. At least I know who owns my house!.

Seriously, this site may be ussful when it's finnished but at the moment is very limited.

[+Team Ullium]

I see what you mean!! Sorry Jodel

 

It was just one of many research links I had come across in my own abortive attempt to find out who owned a piece of land.

 

At one time if you had just applied to the Church of Scotland you would have been right nine times out of ten

 

Ullium.

[+Firth of Forth]

The law in Scotland is to do with the right to roam in the wonderfull scenery which has historically been privately owned and closed off to walkers. This legislation is regarded as one of the best in the world and I wish it was adopted everywhere else in the UK. I can not see any reference to the right to hide boxes of stuff in the hills for others to find in this legislation.

Readers of this thread might like to note a post today by Snaik on the 'Resources for cachers in the Uk and Irelant' pinned thread:

 

"For Information, file is PDF

 

On 1 July 2004 the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (PDF) was approved by resolution of the Scottish Parliament, having received Ministerial approval, with modifications, in May. The Access Code will provide guidance on responsible behaviour for recreational users, and on responsible land management in relation to the new rights.

 

Scottish Outdoor Access Code (PDF)"

 

The pertinent part (and I know this has been discussed before here, but some time ago) is

 

"You can exercise these rights, provided you do so responsibly, over most land and inland water in Scotland, including mountains, moorland, woods and forests, grassland, margins of fields in which crops are growing, paths and tracks, rivers anjd lochs, the coast and most parks and open spaces. Access rights can be exercised at any time of the day or night.

 

You can exercise access rights for recreational purposes (such as pasttimes, family and social activities) and more active pursuits like horse riding, cycling, wild camping and taking part in events, educational purposes (concerned with furthering a person's understanding of the natural and cultural heritage), some commercial purposes (where the activities are the same as those done by the general public) and for crossing over land and water."

 

So, although geocaching is not specifically mentioned, I am sure that it would be covered as a pasttime. Access rights are therefore much more than just being able to wander freely.

 

I accept that it is only geocaching.com who insists on permission being sought, rather than what is legally required by Scots law.

 

And I'm sorry Eckington to stir the can of worms once again, but surely that's what these forums are for: to debate such issues.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+The Forester]

How do I find out who owns a particular piece of bleak Scottish moorland in the middle of nowhere?

That can be difficult, but a bit of commonsense can help.

 

Making enquiries of the locals mught be a start.

 

Perhaps a reasonable interpretation of the geocaching.com rule which requires the cache-owner to obtain permission might be that the placer should make a good effort to obtain permission wherever possible.

 

Much of the "bleak Scottish moorland" is used for stalking stags and shooting grouse. In such places the ownership, or at least the stewardship, of the land is quite easy to identitfy because it is the source of livelihood of so many beaters and ghillies. Just ask the locals.

 

In the specific case of a non bird-nesting nesting site not unadjacent to Dalgety Bay

it is obvious that the land is owned (or at least leased) by the adjacent quarry.

 

In some cases it can be extremely difficult to establish ownership, but I think the GC.com approvers would be sympathetic if a decent attempt has at least been made by the supplicant cache-placer.

[+paul.blitz]

You can exercise access rights for recreational purposes (such as pasttimes, family and social activities) and more active pursuits like horse riding, cycling, wild camping and taking part in events, educational purposes (concerned with furthering a person's understanding of the natural and cultural heritage), some commercial purposes (where the activities are the same as those done by the general public) and for crossing over land and water."

 

So, although geocaching is not specifically mentioned, I am sure that it would be covered as a pasttime.  Access rights are therefore much more than just being able to wander freely. 

 

It is one thing to be allowed "access", it is a different thing to be allowed to leave a geocache on the land.

 

What it DOES mean is that, if you are looking for a cache (placed with full permission), then you don't have to worry so much about the possibility of trespassing whilst you are searching.

 

paul

[+The Forester]

responsible behaviour for recreational users

I think that responsible cache-owners take reasonable steps to seek permission to place caches.

 

I agree with the person who said about caches placed irresponsibly without the elementary courtesy of seeking permission: "I think that if the cache is found or someone is caught finding or replacing it, it may cause problems for the person or Geocaching in the whole."

[+Firth of Forth]

It is one thing to be allowed "access", it is a different thing to be allowed to leave a geocache on the land.

 

What it DOES mean is that, if you are looking for a cache (placed with full permission), then you don't have to worry so much about the possibility of trespassing whilst you are searching.

 

I think that this narrow interpretation of the new outdoor access code is debatable. The code specifically seeks not to define what recreational purposes are, and includes anything that is lawful and reasonable. Is geocaching an unlawful or unreasonable activity? I don't think so.

 

The code does specifically define what is excluded:

any unlawful or criminal activity;

breaches of the peace;

poaching, vandalism, not cleaning up after your dog fouls, letting you dog worry livestock, dropping litter, poluting water and disturbing wild birds, animals or plants;

hunting, shooting and fishing;

motorised activities;

taking away anything on or in the land or water for the purpose of commercial gain or profit.

 

Geocaching, as an outdoor pasttime promoting CITO, engaged in by responsible people and monitored by approvers etc etc would certainly seem to be a recreational activity within the spirit of the new law.

 

I agree with the person who said about caches placed irresponsibly without the elementary courtesy of seeking permission: "I think that if the cache is found or someone is caught finding or replacing it, it may cause problems for the person or Geocaching in the whole."

 

In England probably. Why should it cause a problem if geocaching is an activity that resides within what is considered a reasonable outdoor pursuit according to the Scottish Outdoor Access Code? The problem is that geocaching.com won't approve caches for which permission has not been sought, and I presume that it's a blanket rule to cover themselves in countries where the access laws are not so liberal.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+The Forester]

It is one thing to be allowed "access", it is a different thing to be allowed to leave a geocache on the land.

 

What it DOES mean is that, if you are looking for a cache (placed with full permission), then you don't have to worry so much about the possibility of trespassing whilst you are searching.

There is a widespread myth, ie urban legend, that there is no law of trespass in Scotland.

 

In fact, Scots Law is very clear about trespass. Trespass in Scotland can result in legal proceedings against the trespasser and such proceedings can only be to the detriment of geocaching in general.

 

We do *NOT* have an automatic right to leave caches on other people's land without consent, either under Scots Law or under the very clear rules of Geocaching.com.

 

It would be much better to go after a cache which has full permission than a pirate one which does not. Unfortunately for us in geocaching, we cannot tell which ones are legit and which are not. I agree with the cacher who said that that is to the detriment of geocaching in general.

[+The Forester]

I agree with the person who said about caches placed irresponsibly without the elementary courtesy of seeking permission: "I think that if the cache is found or someone is caught finding or replacing it, it may cause problems for the person or Geocaching in the whole."

 

In England probably. Why should it cause a problem if geocaching is an activity that resides within what is considered a reasonable outdoor pursuit according to the Scottish Outdoor Access Code? The problem is that geocaching.com won't approve caches for which permission has not been sought

Will geocaching.com grant approval for unauthorised geocache placements? Or not?

 

I'm puzzled. Do we have to seek permission? Or not?

 

What are the rules?

 

As for "In England probably". No. This was in Royal parkland in Edinburgh.

 

Obtaining permission to place a geocache in Royal parkland there has been seriously compromised by the fact that there are already some unauthorised caches on their property already.

 

See GCKPKP for details. Hint: it's not in England "probably"!

[+Firth of Forth]

There is a widespread myth, ie urban legend, that there is no law of trespass in Scotland.

 

In fact, Scots Law is very clear about trespass. Trespass in Scotland can result in legal proceedings against the trespasser and such proceedings can only be to the detriment of geocaching in general.

 

We do *NOT* have an automatic right to leave caches on other people's land without consent, either under Scots Law or under the very clear rules of Geocaching.com.

.

"Subsection (1) provides that the exercise of access rights does not of itself amount to trespass"

 

The Outdoor Access code specifies certain places where one is not allowed to exercise rights of access, such as land on which there is a house or caravan or other building, land on which crops are growing, sports pitches, school playgrounds, golf course, historic sites where an entrance fee is payable etc. Yes, accessing such areas without permission would no doubt result in prosecution for trespass.

 

Unfortunately this debate may not be resolvable by lay people like ourselves, as it hinges on interpretations of the law. I would really like a lawyer or MSP to tell me that geocaching is outwith the bounds of the Scottish Outdoor Access Code.

[+The Forester]

"Subsection (1) provides that the exercise of access rights does not of itself amount to trespass"

"Subsection (1)" is a legalistic quotation of irrelevance to the question about whether or not we as geocachers are required by our own rules to seek permission to place geocaches.

 

Do we need to seek permission?

 

Or do we not?

 

That is the question.

[+Firth of Forth]

As for "In England probably".  No. This was in Royal parkland in Edinburgh.

 

Obtaining permission to place a geocache in Royal parkland there has been seriously compromised by the fact that there are already some unauthorised caches on their property already.

 

See  GCKPKP for details.  Hint: it's not in England "probably"!

The Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh is not a place where one can exercise one's rights of access, as it is covered by special byelaws. In fact it was myself and another local cacher who had concerns about the placement of a cache there for which permission had not been granted, and it was quickly removed by the owners before it was accidentally discovered by a gardener. You could try seeking permission from whoever is in charge of the Botanics, but I doubt that they would give it. The regulations governing the area prohibit even pushing a bicycle through it, or having a picnic. I don't think that they would be happy about geocachers searching around in the undergrowth.

 

What I did not know, and have just discovered, is that the Scottish Outdoor Access Code does not come into force until early next year.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+Firth of Forth]

repeated post

Edited November 30, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+Team Ullium]

During one fishing escapade I was arrested and charged with contravening the laws of tresspassing on private property!!

 

It was squashed because I crossed the farm land in question by using the gates and styles that were there and on entering the fields I kept to the perimeter, so there was no question of willful or even accidental damage to the crops!

 

I had a good lawyer though

 

But this example demonstrates that although the law on tresspass in Scotland might be open to interpretation and if the land owner wants he could maybe get you on some other fine point of law!

 

After that experience I tread carefully now !!

 

Ullium.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Ullium

[+snaik]

This may be of some interest:

 

Mountaineering Scotland

 

Snaik

[+The Forester]

The Royal Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh is not a place where one can exercise one's rights of access, as it is covered by special byelaws.

Right of access does not confer permission to place a cache. Does it?

 

Does the existence of Royal Parks, such as are policed by the Royal Parks Constabulary, absolve us geocachers from the geocaching rule that we should seek permission to place a geocache?

 

Do we in Scotland have absolution from our own geocaching rules?

 

Which geocacher gave us that right?

 

Gawd bless 'im/'er!!!

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+Flyfishermanbob]

I think one of my favourite quotes...

 

"Rules are created for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools"

 

Cant see a great deal of mileage in laymen arguing about this .... its so new I would guess there isn't any case law yet....

 

I've always liked the Frisbee maxim ..... if you feel you need to ask permission to throw a Frisbee , the you need to ask permission to Geocache .

 

Only my 2p worth .

 

FFB

[+The Forester]

I crossed the farm land in question by using the gates and styles that were there and on entering the fields I kept to the perimeter, so there was no question of willful or even accidental damage to the crops!

Good geocaching! Entirely within the spirit and meaning of the rules.

 

I had a good lawyer though

I don't think a good geocacher should need a good (or any other!) lawyer.

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

One question for the Scottish cachers,as I'm pretty sure of the answer regarding England and Wales. In any of the legislation regarding Access, is there any mention about leaving "Litter"? Because until there is a legal case in the rest of the UK, providing a legal definition of a Geocache, a cache can be treated by a landowner as litter, if placed without consent (yes I know all about the argument that its not, due to the intention to retrieve it, but caches have been abandoned before). Under these conditions, surly it is better for everyone to obtain permission first, increasing the Kudos of Geocaching to landowning Muggles, and more importantly reliving the strain on our "Volunteer Reviewers", who do their jobs for the love of this pastime!

 

Dave

Edited November 30, 2004 by Mancunian Pyrocacher

[+Firth of Forth]

"Subsection (1) provides that the exercise of access rights does not of itself amount to trespass"

"Subsection (1)" is a legalistic quotation of irrelevance to the question about whether or not we as geocachers are required by our own rules to seek permission to place geocaches.

 

Do we need to seek permission?

 

Or do we not?

 

That is the question.

No, it's not the question that I thought was the subject of the debate.

 

The answer to your question has been made several times in this thread by several different people: Yes, g.com requires that permission is sought for a cache placement. You said it yourself earlier in this thread: there is no special dispensation for Scottish cachers.

 

The interesting question is whether there should be, given that the laws of access in Scotland are, or are about to be, different and more liberal than in most other countries.

 

Cant see a great deal of mileage in laymen arguing about this .... its so new I would guess there isn't any case law yet....

And I agree with FFB that the situation is unlikely to be clarified for some time.

 

This may be of some interest:

 

Mountaineering Scotland

 

Snaik

 

Very interesting reading Mr Snaik. Clearly even the powers that be haven't always known whether or not Scotland has a law of trespass. It's obviously a very muddy area!

Edited December 1, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+Team Ullium]

Nicely summated FoF

 

and btw only 24 days to Christmas

 

Lets get out there and find some caches...sorry presents

 

Ullium.

[+The Forester]

a cache can be treated by a landowner as litter, if placed without consent (yes I know all about the argument that its not, due to the intention to retrieve it, but caches have been abandoned before). Under these conditions, surely it is better for everyone to obtain permission first

I agree that it's better to obtain (or at least, to try to seek) permission of the landowner or relevant authority in the case of publically or Crown-owned land.

 

A little bit of consideration for the feelings of others would go a long way, but some people just don't think that way.

 

The arrogance of some people who think they have a right to dump anything they want to and wherever they want to does no credit to geocaching in general.

 

I'm currently trying to negotiate permission for the placing of caches on three properties. My efforts with Scottish Heritage and the Forestry Commission have been complicated by the presence of unauthorised geocaches on their properties. The placers of those caches have taken the arrogant attitude that they are exempt from the rules of geocaching which the rest of us strive to comply with.

 

Placing a cache is trivially easy. The difficult bit is complying with the rules of geocaching and obtaining, or at least diligently seeking, landowner permission. It's all part of the game and the cheats do no credit to themselves or to geocaching in general.

 

Something else which considerate cache-placers can do to avoid caches being treated as litter by landowners is to write the name of the cache inside the cachebox so that a muggle finder has a reasonable chance to look it up on the GC.comwebsite. That's not too much to ask, is it? Another thing they could do to the credit of geocaching is to privately respond to privately sent emails which enquire about such things. That's not too much to ask either, is it?

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+The Forester]

only 24 days to Christmas

Isn't it Christmas already?!

 

My local garden centre at Rowkin' Glen has had a huge display of Crimbo clatch since early June and the first Crimbo commercial advertisement I saw this year was in the second week of May.

 

Happy Christmas, Ullium!

[+Team Ullium]

Isn't it Christmas already?!

 

Happy Christmas, Ullium!

For me every day is like Christmas as I receive the gift of another day of life

 

But getting back on topic

 

I don't think this subject is one which can be considered in blacks and whites !!!

 

And I think we should attempt to steer clear of emotive words such as 'cheats' !(said the pot calling the kettle black ).

 

It all depends of ones view point and this is certainly not a clear cut issue would you agree?

 

My own experience over the years of walking is that land owners (and renters) are always suspicious of anything which attracts people to enter their domain and geocaching certainly falls into that category. For the most part in my case it was lochs or rivers and I have been set upon by baillifs with large alsations and irate farmers on more than one occasion.

 

So this is a subject to be treated with tact and diplomacy (once more the pot gets up on it's hind legs to berate the kettle ).

 

Right..I've got that off my chest!!

 

A Merry Christmas to you too Forester

Ullium.

[+The Forester]

this is certainly not a clear cut issue would you agree?

I agree that it's not entirely clear cut, but the geocaching rules are quite clear that it's the cache placer's responsibility to seek landowner's permission.

 

It doesn't say "except for vewers in Scotland"!

 

I think the right to roam legislation is a complete red herring.

 

Take a couple of examples to see what I mean. Would we have to seek permission to place a physical cache in the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew? I think so. Would we have to seek permission to place a physical cache in the Royal Botanical Gardens at Inverleith in Edinburgh? I think so. In both cases the public has free access to the grounds in daylight hours 365 days a year, so the matter of access is irrelevant.

 

Consider the case of placing a cache on land operated by the Forestry Commission. They have a policy of allowing and even encouraging free public access to their land. Should one seek permission from the FC in England? If so, then why not also in Scotland?

 

My own experience over the years of walking is that land owners (and renters) are always suspicious of anything which attracts people to enter their domain and geocaching certainly falls into that category.

Landowners can have various reasons for not wanting to have cache on their land. For example, on estates where deer stalking is carried out, walkers can spook the deer and totally ruin the prospects for hunters for the rest of the day because the deer become very twitchy and keep an extravigilant lookout for humans. The presence of cars parked at farm and forest track entrances can cause great inconvenience to foresters and farmers trying to manoeuvre large articulated vehicles. In some parts of the country there are patches of ground which harbour extremely rare plants such as some species of orchids. Just walking over such ground can devastate the population of such rare plants. A caring owner or custodian of such land should have the right to discourage people from trampling such ground.

 

Recently I saw some foolish walkers crossing a field of newly sown winter barley. They thought it was grass! Walking four abreast they had left a broad swathe of detruction of an expensively planted field of a valuable crop upon which the livelihoods of several families depend. I very much doubt whether geocachers would have done that, but it is the perception of the landowner which matters.

 

At this time of year, many woodland owners and operators are harvesting timber. If we don't ask permission to place a cache we may not learn that our chosen location for that nifty cache is in an area which will be clear felled next week. Quite apart from the possible loss of the cache, there are serious safety considerations around modern felling techniques and it might be very unwise to encourage cachers to go to or through an area where heavy machinery is manoeuvring at speed and in sometimes restricted spaces.

 

Are we all agreed that landowners and tenants should have the right to decline to host a cache? If so, how are we to give them a chance to decline permission if we lack the simple courtesy of attempting to contact them and discuss what we intend to do?

 

Of course there are some cases where it can be difficult or even impossible to figure out who the landowners is. In such cases the whole permission thing becomes moot, but in many cases it is abundantly clear who owns or manages a piece of land.

 

Also bear in mind that some land authorities such as National Trust and the Foresty Commission can be very welcoming of geocaching and sometimes they will volunteer to provide such assistance as helping to select ideal spots and even offering to do a bit of cache maintenance.

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+spioradsaor]

I cannot concur. I've walked, marched, and sometimes ran like the blazes in corners all over the world. the only time I have ever been berated by someone has been in Scotland. Well I am sorry but its my land, our land , the peoples land, and anyone that thinks "they own it have a strange view of the world".( Not my words a scottish lairds)

 

Dont cause damage dont obstruct gates follow the country code and do as you will.

 

I agree with the forester that you either know who owns, farms or pads about the land, and it is only common courtesy to ask permission( depends though)however as for Deer staklking etc etc. well the stalking is well publicised and the areas are known so what the heck.

 

Anyway I've recently been berated for having a cache in a cemetery...having to visit a cemetery, pass a cemetery....... Ach ye just cant keep the peeps happy all the time.

 

Last statement geocaching has been good for me ...its taken me back toold haunts, new haunts andf places I'd never have even dreamt of...so chill peeps and dont ruin a good thing.

 

Happy St Andrews Day!!

[+Teasel]

I've always liked the Frisbee maxim ..... if you feel you need to ask permission to throw a Frisbee , the you need to ask permission to Geocache.

In any of the legislation regarding Access, is there any mention about leaving "Litter"?

Perhaps a closer analogy than litter and/or frisbees would be permanently installed orienteering course markers?

 

Geocaching, as an outdoor pasttime promoting CITO, engaged in by responsible people and monitored by approvers etc etc would certainly seem to be a recreational activity within the spirit of the new law.

Orienteering fits this description nicely too; it's also considered by most to be educational; and a permanent course also involves leaving plastic objects on the land which may never be removed. So, under the new Scottish laws, would I have the right to set up a permanent orienteering course on any land where I also have the right of access? Whatever the answer, I suspect the same would be true of geocaching.

[+spioradsaor]

Just to keep this wee rant up the top....I have today, after many hours hiking, trying to catch up on the hillfarmer who owns the land on which I wish to deposit a cache..........only to be told

 

" You dont need to ask permission......... but its nice to be asked anyway....

 

So there it is! Be nice and ask if you can. And if you cant ......?????

 

Chill peeps its only a game

 

ps Theres a cache near me which happens to be in someones garden.

 

Did the placer have to ask him/herself for permission or the local council or the feudal Landlord ...who in theis instance would probably be Viscount Muirsheel...or maybe Lady duchal...or maybe coz of a wee barney back in 1710 Lord Inverclyde may own the ground. Now the acche placer owns the hoose ...but hat doesnt count.

 

Just a wee thought

Edited December 3, 2004 by spioradsaor

[+Flyfishermanbob]

I've always liked the Frisbee maxim ..... if you feel you need to ask permission to throw a Frisbee , the you need to ask permission to Geocache.

In any of the legislation regarding Access, is there any mention about leaving "Litter"?

Perhaps a closer analogy than litter and/or frisbees would be permanently installed orienteering course markers?

 

Geocaching, as an outdoor pasttime promoting CITO, engaged in by responsible people and monitored by approvers etc etc would certainly seem to be a recreational activity within the spirit of the new law.

Orienteering fits this description nicely too; it's also considered by most to be educational; and a permanent course also involves leaving plastic objects on the land which may never be removed. So, under the new Scottish laws, would I have the right to set up a permanent orienteering course on any land where I also have the right of access? Whatever the answer, I suspect the same would be true of geocaching.

 

I don't think the analogy is quite fair .....

 

By its very nature , placing a cache is unobtrusive , .....however section 2.7 specifically includes orienteering ...and the onus is always on acting responsibly ....so if you want so set up an orienteering course feel free , but leave it as you found it.

 

Compare it with Munro bashing and leaving a stone on the cairn at the top ...

 

Unfortunately , there isn't a black and white answer to this ...... thats why it isn't a prescriptive piece of legislation ....

[+spioradsaor]

WHOOOOOSH!!!! Aw NAw ahve lost ma frizbee.

 

Jings crivens help ma boab.......

 

One more thing......If I'm using waypoints which are local monuments/landmarks etc...do I have to ask the council for permission.

 

As I said CHill peeps its only a wee game.