Cachers Beware And Be Careful

[+MedicP1]

It seems that 5 hunters in Hayward,Wisconsin were shot and killed and 3 were injured in a dispute over a hunting stand/trespassing.

 

Newspaper Article

 

CNN Story

 

Probably an isolated incident, but still shows how wacked some people can get about trespassing, and this was done by the guy at fault/trespassing.

 

Just hoping everyone will remember to be a little extra careful during hunting season, for all the right reasons.

Edited November 22, 2004 by MedicP1

[Taxman003]

I don't know if you are pro-hunting or not, but I am a hunter. This does not relate to geocaching (as opposed to other threads out there that warn people that hunting season is here) and is sadly one of the most tragic stories I have ever heard about hunting related injuries.

 

I'd be interested to know if the suspect was even a hunter or perhaps an anti hunter.

 

It just goes to show you that some people should not be allowed to re-create.

 

Mike

[Taxman003]

Sorry to dominate this thread, but here's another story that although tragic, spins a different look at hunters.

 

Mike

 

Hunters find comatose woman in bush

Last Updated Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:05:54 EST

 

GRANBY, QUE. - Deer hunters stumbled over a comatose woman who was badly beaten and left to die in the bush in southeastern Quebec, police say.

 

The woman, who had open wounds to her head and much of her body as well as several broken bones, was found Sunday morning in a wooded area near Granby.

 

It may be days before the 46-year-old woman recovers enough to be interviewed, said police in the city, which lies about 70 kilometres east of Montreal.

 

They suspect she was left for dead in a wooded area near the city Saturday night.

 

"The lady was really lucky," said Louis-Philippe Ruelle, a police spokesperson, told CBC Radio. "Actually, we don't know how long she could have stayed alive if they hadn't found her."

 

He said she is now recovering in a Montreal hospital and is expected to recover.

 

"The lady is very confused about what happened and she is slipping in and out of a coma, so it's really hard to ask questions as of yet," he said.

 

Police have been in touch with the Montreal woman's family, although they haven't identified her publicly.

 

Written by CBC News Online staff

[+Mudinyeri]

Yeah, the guy's wearing orange in the CNN story but I don't think that's a hunting vest. What person in their right mind starts blasting away, killing people over a tree stand? I too am a hunter and know that not everyone else who hunts is a model citizen but this is outrageous!

[+MedicP1]

From the news broadcast they stated that the person in the stand was a hunter in/using the approaching groups tree stand, when asked to vacate he started arguing with them then opened fire.

 

It does apply to us as geocachers because we could have been the ones that found him wandering.

 

I'm not paranoid or anything, just saying we should still be very careful when people with guns infest OUR (HEHEHE) woods. Last year I picked up a hunter that was shot with a 12 gauge slug by one of his party that he was 'flushing out' for. He was even wearing a hunters vest.

[The_Brownies]

I'm going to kick this hornet's nest and run....

 

From the news broadcast they stated that the person in the stand was a hunter in/using the approaching groups tree stand, when asked to vacate he started arguing with them then opened fire.

 

It does apply to us as geocachers because we could have been the ones that found him wandering.

 

I'm not paranoid or anything, just saying we should still be very careful when people with guns infest OUR (HEHEHE) woods. Last year I picked up a hunter that was shot with a 12 gauge slug by one of his party that he was 'flushing out' for. He was even wearing a hunters vest.

 

Ok not sure how this pertains to Geocaching because

1. This was a Hunting Incident on Private Property.

Geocaches are not permitted on Private Land

 

2. After he shot the 6 - 8 people he got lost again and

was being lead out of the woods by another hunter so it doesn't sound like he was too angry at the other hunter?

 

I don't know about you but whenever I cache, I'm packing protection, and I don't mean a condom. What happens if you run into a Bear or Cougar or a Rattlesnake?

 

3. Most Geocachers I know stay clear of hunting areas during hunting season because they are afraid of being shot. So if you want to avoid hunters, leave the forrest caches for the spring and summer.

 

BTW - something like this has happened before and there was a Cold Case Detectives story about it. Not to long ago in TN three guys decide to go swimming on a hot afternoon. They never came home. Long story short, is someone bought some land that was open to the public for many years and then that person put up no - tresspassing signs and these three ran into him on his property. He did not give them any warning. He simply executed them because they were tresspassing. What is scary is that most of the southern gentlemen, agreed with this, because to them land is everything. I bet when the dust settles we will hear a little different account of what actually happened in Michigan.

 

As a hunter I have ran into land owers who went bollistic when they found out that someone was tresspassing on their land. Instead of calling the game warden, or the police, they try and handle things by themselves. That's when things go wrong.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I AM NOT CONDONING WHAT THIS GUY DID and Personally I think he should be tried, convicted and then Executed!!, but I just don't think this person opened fire on these people for no reason. I can only specualate what happened but he probably was lost and got up into the deerstand to try and get his bearings. Then Joebob, and Billybob, and the townfolk got the pitchforks and told WangWay to get out of there in not so friendly terms and WangWay got scared or ticked off and gunned them down.

 

Of course this really puts a bad rap on hunters, but this raises the question why does anyone need to hunt deer with a Semi-Automatic Rifle. If anyone is to blame here it is definately Congress for letting the Semi-Automatic Gun Bill lapse. I can see using a high powered rifle like a .270 or 30-06 to hunt, but tell me who needs AR-15 with a 30 round clip to hunt deer? Don't give me the "OH It's my rights to Own and Bare Arms!" I'm a vet and as such I if anyone fought and almost died for that right, and I certainly do not agree with that argument. Personally, let people keep their guns, but ban the semi-automatic Mac 10s, AR15's and other assault rifles that have no practical purpose, and should not be owned by anyone but the police or military.

Edited November 24, 2004 by The_Brownies

[+IV_Warrior]

Personally, let people keep their guns, but ban the semi-automatic Mac 10s, AR15's and other assault rifles that have no practical purpose, and should not be owned by anyone but the police or military.

YOUR opinion, many others disagree, but it's OFF TOPIC to this thread, so I won't start a debate with you about it here.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

It seems that 5 hunters in Hayward,Wisconsin were shot and killed and 3 were injured in a dispute over a hunting stand/trespassing.

 

Newspaper Article

 

CNN Story

 

Probably an isolated incident, but still shows how wacked some people can get about trespassing, and this was done by the guy at fault/trespassing.

 

Just hoping everyone will remember to be a little extra careful during hunting season, for all the right reasons.

 

Paranoia strikes again.

 

John

[+Mopar]

Of course this really puts a bad rap on hunters, but this raises the question why does anyone need to hunt deer with a Semi-Automatic Rifle. If anyone is to blame here it is definately Congress for letting the Semi-Automatic Gun Bill lapse. I can see using a high powered rifle like a .270 or 30-06 to hunt, but tell me who needs AR-15 with a 30 round clip to hunt deer? Don't give me the "OH It's my rights to Own and Bare Arms!" I'm a vet and as such I if anyone fought and almost died for that right, and I certainly do not agree with that argument. Personally, let people keep their guns, but ban the semi-automatic Mac 10s, AR15's and other assault rifles that have no practical purpose, and should not be owned by anyone but the police or military.

Ya can't make false statements like this and run.

 

Unless the story has changed, he wasn't using an "assault weapon"; he was using a semi-automatic hunting rifle. SEMI. not a full auto machine gun (which have been banned since the 1930's, and are STILL banned). The reason the assault weapon ban lapsed is because it was ineffective. The only thing different between the formerly banned assault weapons and a hunting rifle is cosmetics. An assault weapon somehow looks more dangerous then a hunting rifle. They shoot the same ammo (actually, many so called assault weapons shoot weaker ammo then hunting rifles) at the same rate of fire; one shot for one pull of the trigger. There is no difference in between getting shot with a 7.62mm bullet from a hunting rifle, or a 7.62mm bullet from an "assault weapon".

Also, as was mentioned, there are 2 sides to every story. According the the most recent CNN story the other side of the story is that the hunter was lost and didn't know he was trespassing (he claims it's not posted). When he tried to leave, he was harassed and then shot at first. Not saying what he did was right, but it sure puts a different spin on things.

Edited November 25, 2004 by Mopar

[+greyhounder]

As a representative of the state of Wisconsin, I'll tell you what I know:

 

The suspect was on private (and posted as such) land, when several hunters encountered him and told him such. There is no proof of an arguement, racial remarks, or that one of the shot hunters fired first, but that doesn't mean that it didn't occur. The suspect got down from the tree stand and removed the sight from his legal semi-automatic rifle and made as if he was leaving, but then apparently began shooting. It is said that he chased down the victims, shooting them from behind. The victims radioed the cabin where others were and asked them to get on their ATVs and come rescue them. Two people were shot off their ATV as they attempted to help. Someone was able to copy down the suspects deer tag number into dust on an ATV. 5 people died soon after the shooting (one woman was among the dead) and another man died in the hospital a few days later. The suspect ran off after the shootings and subsequently became lost. He happened upon a couple other hunters and asked for help in getting out of the woods. Somehow, the warden got involved and the suspect was identified by his tag number on his jacket.

 

There is also a possibility that the suspect was involved in another murder during hunting season a few years back. I guess there are similarities.

 

But, I think geocachers are still safe in hunting season -- if you wear orange. This was an isolated incident and certainly not the norm.

 

Bec

[CoyoteRed]

As a hunter I have...

I have to question this. If you are a hunter, you sure don't know your firearms.

 

There are plenty of firearms, purpose made for hunting, which are semi-automatic. They are not MAC-10s or AR15s.

 

"Semi-automatic" really has nothing to do with discussion.

[CoyoteRed]

full auto machine gun (which have been banned since the 1930's, and are STILL banned).

Not true. "Banned" would mean that no one could have one. Actually, you have to be federally licensed and aside for the fee, which I forget the amount off the top of my head, it wasn't that hard to get. There would be stiff fines and possible jail time if you were caught with one without the license.

 

I don't know how hard it is to get the license in today's climate, though, as I haven't pursued it in a long, long time.

[+MedicP1]

From what I understand the only reason they figure the 2 hunters that led him out weren't also shot is because the killer was out of ammo, else they would have met the same fate. I have to defend the idea that this is related to geocaching, because as I previously stated "we could have been the ones that found him wandering." and as we tend to be friendly and sociable and have a toy that would lead us right out of the woods making it likely we would assist if the chance arose.

[+Mopar]

full auto machine gun (which have been banned since the 1930's, and are STILL banned).

Not true. "Banned" would mean that no one could have one. Actually, you have to be federally licensed and aside for the fee, which I forget the amount off the top of my head, it wasn't that hard to get. There would be stiff fines and possible jail time if you were caught with one without the license.

 

I don't know how hard it is to get the license in today's climate, though, as I haven't pursued it in a long, long time.

You are correct. I probably should have said "effectively banned".

There is a $200 transfer fee for weapons that fall under the National Firearms Act of 1934. But thats a minor point.

 

In 1986, as part of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), Congress prohibited individuals from owning machine guns, and made it an affirmative defense that the machine gun was registered before the act took effect (which was 5/19/86). See 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o) for the law.

Thus as an individual you can only legally own a machine gun that was registered before that date. Any registered after that date can only be owned by Special (Occupational) Taxpayers (SOT's, which are manufacturers, importers or dealers working for a govt entity), law enforcement, and government entities. A SOT may not keep these machine guns after surrendering his SOT. In order to transfer one of these machine guns, the SOT must have a request from an agency able to own one for a demonstration. Or an order from one of those agencies to buy one.

A class 2 SOT can make machine guns for research and development purposes, or for sale to dealers as samples, or for sale to government entities. These are commonly called post-86 machine guns.

 

On top of the FOPA machine gun restrictions, any NFA weapon imported into the U.S. after the Gun Control Act took effect (end of 1968) cannot be transferred to an individual. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5844.

 

On top of that, if there are any state of local restrictions on NFA weapons (most states), the ATF is not allowed to make the transfer.

 

On top of THAT, you need a letter from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for your jurisdiction, stating that he agrees you have a need to possess such a weapon, and you must be fingerprinted (even if you already were fingerprinted for a firearm permit).

 

Now that you got all that out of the way, you can legally buy your machine gun.

A legal, transferable uzi submachine gun starts at around $4000 used.

 

In other words, for a law abiding individual, the might as well be banned.

Edited November 27, 2004 by Mopar

[+cudlecub]

I was very uneasy this past weekend while caching. We were in an area where there were many hunters in the woods. We were also wearing dark colored clothing which blended into our environment. So we pretty much talked the entire time to hopefully alert hunters we were deer or some other varmit. We didn't go after any caches that were deep in the woods and kept at those that were less than 0.1 mile from the main highways. We will revisit the area at another time to find those caches that are deeper in the woods.

 

After this experience, I picked up a blaze orange sweatshirt to wear during hunting season.

[+greyhounder]

After this experience, I picked up a blaze orange sweatshirt to wear during hunting season.

This is probably the most important thing you can geocache with this time of year!

 

Bec

[+Clan X-Man]

What is scary is that most of the southern gentlemen, agreed with this, because to them land is everything.

 

C'mon even in here us Southern Gentlemen are stereotyped.

Land is not everyhting to us. Geocaching is!

[+Renegade Knight]

The entire story isn't out. I was disspointed that "Race" was already thrown into the ring. We don't need that crap. Let it alone until it's been confirmed.

 

As for any practicle purpose I find my SKS is cheaper to shoot than my 300 magnum. I like plinking much more than I like hunting. However if I had to take out a crazed hunter with an SKS my choice would be the 300 magnum. He would never even see me.

[+Mopar]

The entire story isn't out. I was disspointed that "Race" was already thrown into the ring. We don't need that crap. Let it alone until it's been confirmed.

The race issue is a legit issue to toss in the ring:

Oct 30 CNN story

According to the complaint, Vang said that he opened fire after the others took a shot at him first and berated him with racial slurs. He allegedly told investigators he shot some of the victims because he thought they were going for guns or had guns, and that he did not shoot at others although he could see they were armed.

<SNIP>

The criminal complaint also said Vang told investigators that the victims fired at him twice -- including the first shot when he was walking away after being told he was trespassing.

[+Renegade Knight]

The entire story isn't out.  I was disspointed that "Race" was already thrown into the ring.  We don't need that crap.  Let it alone until it's been confirmed.

The race issue is a legit issue to toss in the ring:

Oct 30 CNN story

According to the complaint, Vang said that he opened fire after the others took a shot at him first and berated him with racial slurs. He allegedly told investigators he shot some of the victims because he thought they were going for guns or had guns, and that he did not shoot at others although he could see they were armed.

<SNIP>

The criminal complaint also said Vang told investigators that the victims fired at him twice -- including the first shot when he was walking away after being told he was trespassing.

Now that he made the accusation it is. When I first heard the issue brought up it was the family speculating. This was the same day he was arrested though.

[+Morock & Miss C]

What is the magazine capacity limit for deer hunting rifles in Wisconsin? Here in Oregon it's five rounds. My SKS holds 10 rounds and one more in the chamber, if I want to press my luck. And I would never use that for deer/elk hunting, anyway. Was this guy even hunting with a legal firearm.

 

Most of our best caches are in hunting country. We dress in bright colors and the same for the dog. Same as we dressed our boys when they were little guys. My oldest loved wearing camo, still does, the last thing I wanted to tell the search and rescue folks was "yeh, he's 4ft 2in tall and dressed in woodland camo"

[+greyhounder]

At one point Vang even stated that one of those killed grabbed Vang's gun & shot the other victims with it. One of the survivors has said that no one in their hunting party fired the first shot -- although one of the men did fire back after he had been shot in the shoulder.

 

Vang is claiming that racial remarks were made -- this has not been accepted or denied by the survivors of the hunting party, so whether or not it happened, I can't say. Still doesn't make it right to shoot anyone else....

 

Bec

[+pghlooking]

If anyone is to blame here it is definately Congress for letting the Semi-Automatic Gun Bill lapse. I can see using a high powered rifle like a .270 or 30-06 to hunt, but tell me who needs AR-15 with a 30 round clip to hunt deer?

so basically you are saying that had the gun bill been in place this wouldnt have happeend? at what point do we start being responsible for our actions as individuals? it is insane to think yet alone say, that if the gun bill had been in place this or any other crime wouldnt have occured. i dont think 99.9% of the criminals out there care one way or the other whether a law exists or not permitting them from having the gun that they are using to mow down a bunch of people. of course with this logic that Congress is responsible, we can either try Congress, or give a good excuse to let this guy out of jail since its not really his fault.

[Keystone]

There are now two or three different subtopics going on in this thread. As your usually friendly neighborhood referee, I'm here to sort things out. I would like to keep the on-topic portion of the thread open, and also to avoid handing out any penalty cards.

 

Subtopic 1 is ON TOPIC: safety in the woods for geocachers, how to peacefully co-exist with hunters, etc.

 

Subtopic 2 is OFF TOPIC: whether past, present or future gun control legislation (or lack thereof) had any bearing on what happened here. This has nothing to do with geocaching.

 

Subtopic 3 is OFF TOPIC: whether race was a factor in the recent shootings. This has nothing to do with geocaching.

 

If anyone wishes to discuss Subtopics 2 or 3, please start a thread in the Off Topic forum. And if someone posts here regarding Subtopics 2 or 3, please let the moderators do the moderating, and resist the urge to rebut whatever is posted.

 

Thank you.

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

I've read many of the articles on this subject and have some thoughts on how it might relate to safety in the woods while geocaching during hunting season.

• wear orange when you go in the woods during hunting season (and hunting season includes most of the year in my part of the country) {this doesn't really relate to the story, but is important enough to bear repeating anyway}
  
• If you hear a shot from near you while in the woods, drop to the ground and yell loudly to the hunter(s) that you're close, and to stop shooting
  
• If somebody tells you that you are trespassing, don't argue, just leave
  

I'm a hunter, and make sure to identify my target and ascertain what, if anything, is beyond it before shooting. I've hit my target about 95+% of the time when hunting, not because I'm an exceptional shot (although I am ), but because I don't take the shot unless I know I'm going to hit what I'm shooting at; my 30.06 bullets have the capacity to travel 5 miles from the point of fire, so I don't like to miss.

 

If you're not sure about whether or not there are hunters in the woods, and whether or not they know you are there...make some human sounding noise. I would much rather miss getting a deer than shooting at/near someone in the woods while I was hunting.

 

just my $0.02

 

nfa-jamie

Edited December 2, 2004 by NFA

[+Riverchaser]

Something else to consider if you're planning to be in the woods during hunting season. Based on conversations with deer hunters here in the Midsouth, many will hunt mornings and/or afternoons with the hours around dusk being favored. Many will come out of the woods around mid-morning for lunch, etc. then return to their stands by midafternoon so it would seem that mid-day may be the safest part of the day to cache. Public lands will usually have a ranger, warden or other type of overseer who can give you good information. One public area we hiked in would allow only hunters in the woods during the deer season but the public could hike during turkey season as long as they stayed on established trails. A good plan would be to obtain information published by the states wildlife management agency regarding the hunting seasons and plan your caching around them. Because most, if not all, Walmarts sell hunting supplies and licenses, they will have brochures covering the areas in which they are located. Wear orange...be safe...Merry Christmas...Happy New Year!!!

[bubba ninja]

ok all through this topic i heard people asking why a hunter would need a semi. why?

 

1) because if you miss the deer, or don't down it, you can pull off another shot or two and maybe, if your lucky, down it

2) because it makes you look cooler: "hey, ive got a semi"

3) because unexperienced people may not know how to operate a bolt-action effectively, there are many different things between bolt-actions and semi's, and semi's are generally more simple to operate