Trimble Outdoors Gps-enabled Phones

[+junglehair]

If you haven't already heard, Trimble and Nextel have teamed up to produce a GPS enabled phone that can be used for geocaching. (trimbleoutdoors.com)

 

They graciously sent me a phone to test out and offer advise on how to improve it for geocaching.

 

I thought I'd post this here to develop a "wish list". If all you needed to go geocaching was your cell phone, what would you want it to include?

 

The phone I am testing is the Nextel i860 camera phone.

 

Their system includes trip planning software which you download onto your computer. You can import GPX/LOC files, select the maps (street, topo and/or aerial imagery) that you want to include, and send the information wirelessly to the phone.

 

You can also select the icons to be displayed for each waypoint. Currently they offer Geocache and Geocache Found icons similar to Garmin units.

 

The phone itself has a color display which is clear and easy to read, even in bright sunlight (not that we've seen much of that around Rochester, NY lately).

 

You can page through the various screens including the standard compass and map pages. From the maps page, you can toggle between the street maps, the topo maps and the aerial images, depending on what information was selected in the trip planning software.

 

You can use the built in camera to take pictures and even log your caches as you go using the Web application.

 

They have been very open to the suggestions that I have made so far, and are dedicated to tayloring this to the geocaching community. So here's your chance - what features would you like to see?

 

If you have questions about the product, I can either try to answer them based on my experience, or at minimum pass them along.

[Prof. Y. Lupardi]

When you have a camera and a GPSr in one , what you want is not only a timestamp but also a position with the picture when the GPSr is active.

I only know of a digicam from Kodak that could connect to a certain GPSr to put position info inside the picture (something about EXIF data?) .

[+Milbank]

Is the GPS a stand alone unit or does it need to have cell service to work?

 

How many waypoints can it store?

How many waypoints can be loaded into the unit or be showen on the map at one time?

 

When will they have there service in N.E South Dakota?

 

Edited to add:

They graciously sent me a phone to test out

 

How do I get one sent to me for testing...

Edited November 19, 2004 by Milbank

[+TresOkies]

I'd suggest getting rid of that gawd-awful chirping noise when one of the dadgum things tries to connect.

[Prof. Y. Lupardi]

Their system includes trip planning software which you download onto your computer.  You can import GPX/LOC files, select the maps (street, topo and/or aerial imagery) that you want to include, and send the information wirelessly to the phone. 

Do they have their own brand of trip planning software? And associated carts in own secret format? Or can you use say Garmin Topo maps also?

You speak of aerial image. That stuff is mostly raster-based. Can I use say GEOTIFF format files or jpg with some kind of calibration file.? Or, being Trimble, some kind of ARcGIS format for it all?

Alternatively the question is: will I be able to load self-made maps or only brand-specific maps I have to buy?.

 

Further: when using calibrated maps: did they think about different mapdatums and display formats?

[+junglehair]

When you have a camera and a GPSr in one , what you want is not only a timestamp but also a position with the picture when the GPSr is active.

I only know of a digicam from Kodak that could connect to a certain GPSr to put position info inside the picture (something about EXIF data?) .

The phone records the photo with the Lat/Long position where it was taken. You can then upload the photos to the site, and it displays the points on a map which are linked to the photos.

[+junglehair]

Is the GPS a stand alone unit or does it need to have cell service to work?

 

How many waypoints can it store?

How many waypoints can be loaded into the unit or be showen on the map at one time?

 

When will they have there service in N.E South Dakota?

 

Edited to add:

They graciously sent me a phone to test out

 

How do I get one sent to me for testing...

The GPS is a stand alone unit, but if you are in an area with cell service, it uses that to help lock onto the satellites quicker.

 

Not sure of the total number of waypoints it can store/display, but I tested it out with 100 - 150 points and it worked fine.

 

Service in N.E. South Dakota - no idea! But I've been there myself, does that count?

[+junglehair]

Do they have their own brand of trip planning software? And associated carts in own secret format? Or can you use say Garmin Topo maps also?

You speak of aerial image. That stuff is mostly raster-based. Can I use say GEOTIFF format files or jpg with some kind of calibration file.? Or, being Trimble, some kind of ARcGIS format for it all?

Alternatively the question is: will I be able to load self-made maps or only brand-specific maps I have to buy?.

 

Further: when using calibrated maps: did they think about different mapdatums and display formats?

The way they have set it up, you subscribe to a service ($5 or $10/month) rather than buying software. I believe the $5/month service allows you to download trips and waypoints to your phone. The $10/month service allows you to download the map data as well.

 

At the moment, the only maps that you can download are those that are included with their trip planning software (street maps, topo maps, or aerial images). I will suggest the self-made maps option to them - that's the type of feedback they are looking for.

 

The GPS and all maps are set to the WGS84 datum. There doesn't appear to be a way to change the projection.

[+bigeddy]

If you have questions about the product, I can either try to answer them based on my experience, or at minimum pass them along.

The service looks a bit like "geocaching lite" in that it attempts to provide the basics, at a price, for those who want convenience. Not sure how practical it is for an active geocacher or even someone just planning a trip. Some random comments & questions:

 

Phone

 

1. The screen is rather small for viewing maps and aerials. How does it scroll and how readable is it in bright light?

 

2. The battery life of the phone is only 165 minutes in use. How does it do with the GPS on?

 

3. There is no Bluetooth or WiFi capability. What is the wireless data rate? How long does it take typically to transfer hundreds of waypoints, maps, aerials and photos via the phone? Can this be done through a USB port on the computer?

 

4. There is no memory expansion slot and I couldn't find any memory spec for the i860 phone. What is the memory available for geocaching use?

 

5. What kind of waypoint management tools are available? Can you do the normal things like change name, symbol and coordinates; search by proximity or name; delete waypoints by symbol; and project a waypoint?

 

6. How useable is the camera? I see it is only 300kB but is it sharp, good color, deals with contrast, and works in low light?

 

Adventure Planner

 

7. Runs only on Windows which makes it useless for me, a Mac user.

 

8. Does not appear to have a distance scale associated with it, at least in the example on their webpage.

 

9. Has a limit on the amount of data you can transfer per month without an additional charge. They say the limit is roughly "10 trips" which I take to mean 10 sets of maps-topos-aerials. That's not much for an avid geocacher or anyone trying to plan a long trip.

 

10. Appears to include only the waypoint name, coordinates and symbol. What about the waypoint designation, cache description, hint and logs? Do you have to take cache pages with you separately (printed or in a PDA)?

 

11. Has no street routing ability?

 

TIA

[superstition]

Great questions...here are some quick answers - I work for Trimble and I've been geocaching with all of the available Nextel phones - including 3 finds today

 

Phone

 

1. The screen is rather small for viewing maps and aerials. How does it scroll and how readable is it in bright light?

the screen on the Nextel i710, i730, i733, i736, and i830 is 130x130 pixels and 65,000 colors. They work well in sunlight and are transreflective in direct sun. They are a bit small for the maps but the clarity is extremely good. The i860 camera phone has a larger display which is 220x206 pixels and 262,000 colors. The i860 has a better display than my Garmin 60C in my opinion. When you "walk off" the map on the phone screen the next map tile is automatically recalled from memory so you are always over a map if you did the download

 

2. The battery life of the phone is only 165 minutes in use. How does it do with the GPS on?

We've run battery tests with GPS running continuosly with a one second update rate and the display on every half hour taking a position fix for one minute. In those conditions the i830 generally runs about 10 hours, the i710, i730, i733, i736, and i860 generally run around 12 hours. The biggest power drain is the display - if you leave it on 100% of the time the battery life is reduced by half. It's reduced further if you are also making phone calls while running GPS.

 

3. There is no Bluetooth or WiFi capability. What is the wireless data rate? How long does it take typically to transfer hundreds of waypoints, maps, aerials and photos via the phone? Can this be done through a USB port on the computer?

The wireless data rate is up to 64K bits/second under ideal conditions but we usually see an effective bit rate of around 20K bits/second. Map tiles are 5K to 10K in size and transfer quickly. I download 12 map tiles to my i860 for caching today in about 60 seconds - and best of all I did it while driving to the first cache. You can download a hundred waypoints in the time need to do one map tile - waypoints are very fast

 

4. There is no memory expansion slot and I couldn't find any memory spec for the i860 phone. What is the memory available for geocaching use?

The i860 has 25MB of internal memory. Currently around 1MB is available for cache information and the rest is reserved for photos. We are working on an update to improve memory usage that will allow more of the 25MB to be used for cache maps and waypoints - the update will be free if you purchased previously.

 

5. What kind of waypoint management tools are available? Can you do the normal things like change name, symbol and coordinates; search by proximity or name; delete waypoints by symbol; and project a waypoint?

Waypoint management on the phone is somewhat limited right now but being improved for the next release. Waypoints can have long names instead of using 6 characters as common in low end GPS units. You can rename the waypoint and change the coordinates. There is only one waypoint symbol on the phone but there are at least 50 symbols in the Adventure Planner software. Adventure Planner symbols show up on top of the digital topo, street, or aerial photo sent the the phone. You can do a goto nearest, but you cannot search by name - you get a list to scroll through. You cannot project today.

 

6. How useable is the camera? I see it is only 300kB but is it sharp, good color, deals with contrast, and works in low light?

The camera is just ok. I use the 640x480 VGA mode and it takes photos that are fine for many people but would not be fine for a photographer. The Adventure Planner allows you to import your high res photos from your digital camera if you prefer. I find the i860 camera perfect for caching since I often forget my digital. There are a number of trips on the trimbleoutdoors web site that have i860 photos - check out the one called Weaver's Needle for an example.

 

Adventure Planner

 

7. Runs only on Windows which makes it useless for me, a Mac user.

True - no Mac support today unfortunately. I did run into a guy that had it running successfully on his Mac using a PC emulator program but we have not tested that configuration so I'm not sure how well it works.

 

8. Does not appear to have a distance scale associated with it, at least in the example on their webpage.

There is a ruler function that allows you to measure distances as the crow flys. Also, the distance along a route is automatically calculated and displayed as you create the route.

 

9. Has a limit on the amount of data you can transfer per month without an additional charge. They say the limit is roughly "10 trips" which I take to mean 10 sets of maps-topos-aerials. That's not much for an avid geocacher or anyone trying to plan a long trip.

The limit only applys to maps you send to your phone. You can use the US topo, street, and aerial photo maps on the adventure as much as you like - there is no limit. The Gold plan transfers only waypoints and routes for $4.99 per month. You can typically send several thousand waypoints without going over. The Platinum plan allows you to send maps and take photos for $9.99 per month. You can send about 50 maps or take about 25 pictures without going over. There is an option to buy a larger data package if your are a power user.

 

10. Appears to include only the waypoint name, coordinates and symbol. What about the waypoint designation, cache description, hint and logs? Do you have to take cache pages with you separately (printed or in a PDA)?

The Adventure Planner allows the import of .loc or .gpx files from geocaching.com. When you do an import the full cache name is preseved and you can immediately link from the Adventure Planner to the geocaching.com cache page. Each waypoint can have a long description of around 1,000 characters and when you import from geocaching the description is pulled across. This is very handy and I use it a lot. There are also at least 50 different symbols that you can give your caches at the time of import. A new release next week has added the precise geocaching symbols found on geocaching.com. And best of all these symbols appear on the phone display over the map.

 

A better way to get all geocaching data in the field is to use the web browser on the phone. When in the field I often use the new wap deck built by the geocaching folks so I can log into geocaching.com from my phone in the field, get all description info, read the hint, etc. It's very cool. I used it on one cache today when I could not find it and needed a hint.

 

11. Has no street routing ability?

Correct - no street routing

[Blue Contrails]

Is this software limited to Nextel phones only? It wouldn't work with a Motorola Smartphone would it?

[+bigeddy]

Great questions...here are some quick answers - I work for Trimble and I've been geocaching with all of the available Nextel phones - including 3 finds today

Thanks for the prompt response. That's a BIG plus for a company to have an employee to answer questions. (Sidenote: you say you are a Trimble employee and you use a Garmin 60C???)

 

I don't know how much you want to attract the geo-addicts, but from my perspective I would want to see the following before considering the Trimble-Nextel GPS:

 

* Basic navigation functions. Some needed features are changing distance units and map datum, having a distance scale and compass pointer on the map display for reference, and projecting a waypoint. As designed the system is suitable for only straightforward hunts.

 

* Better waypoint management (in both Adventure Planner and the phone) and more storage. Phone reception is too limited to depend on wireless for hints and such, much less to load waypoints on trips. Top-end geocaching systems are expected to handle and search many hundreds of full waypoint descriptions without a sweat, as least on the PC at home if not in the field like PDAs can do.

 

* Street routing. It's probably asking too much to include street routing but the hardest part of geocaching is often negotiating strange streets and finding trail heads. And your competition has it. I'm not sure how I would get along without map guidance to plan trips and figure out the best route to caches. Street routing saves a lot of time which I can use for actual geocaching.

 

* Better pricing and speed for data transfer. I looked at the Nextel plans and the prices for data capability are a little scary. The carrier I currently use is less than half the cost of Nextel's equivalent service (not including Trimble's charges), has unlimited data transfer, and from what you've indicated, seems to have a much higher connection speed.

 

* Mac compatibility. Not likely given that you are already facing a limited customer base because of the Nextel connection but important to some of us. I have to use VirtualPC to load maps onto the Garmin but I do this as little as possible and it is a big reason I look for other mapping solutions. A phone approach like you have is attractive in some ways; if Adventure Planner worked natively on a Mac that would make it much more attractive.

 

A promising start for your product. Regards.

[superstition]

Is this software limited to Nextel phones only? It wouldn't work with a Motorola Smartphone would it?

 

Only Nextel today - by the way, Nextel is going to introduce a new Motorola phone called the i930 that runs the Microsoft Smartphone OS.

[superstition]

Thanks for the prompt response. That's a BIG plus for a company to have an employee to answer questions. (Sidenote: you say you are a Trimble employee and you use a Garmin 60C???) 

 

I don't know how much you want to attract the geo-addicts, but from my perspective I would want to see the following before considering the Trimble-Nextel GPS:

You can't knock Garmin's gear (even if you work for Trimble) - it's first class. I have a yellow eTrex, a 60C, a eTrex Legend, and a Foretrex 201

 

Trimble makes very high end GPS equipment that measures to the centimeter level and Garmin makes low cost recreational equipment. Not many geocachers can afford Trimble gear and you can bet that geocaching would be less fun if everyone had centimeter accuracy equipment. I have heard of folks that use Trimble GIS or Survey receivers for work taking them out for the weekend

 

Your suggestions are very helpful and I'll turn them over to the Trimble developers to consider. I'm certain that some of these features will be part of future releases. It's feedback like this that helps us make better products and I really appreciate your thoughts.

[cpyles]

I have a question, I have subscribed to Trimble through the Nextel site and downloaded the Adventure Planner, now how the heck do I get the Evolution GPS for my phone without having to drag myself down to a Nextel store to get it installed, they are closed today and I wanted to go try this out. Is there a way to get it over the air or download it on my computer and install it through a data cable?

[+bigeddy]

Nextel is going to introduce a new Motorola phone called the i930 that runs the Microsoft Smartphone OS.

Now that's a scary thought! Given Windows' security, stability and useability nightmares on PCs, I can't think of a worse OS for phones.

[superstition]

I have a question, I have subscribed to Trimble through the Nextel site and downloaded the Adventure Planner, now how the heck do I get the Evolution GPS for my phone without having to drag myself down to a Nextel store to get it installed, they are closed today and I wanted to go try this out. Is there a way to get it over the air or download it on my computer and install it through a data cable?

 

Sorry for the late reply cpyles - I have not been online today until now. The software is downloaded to your phone over the air like a game or ring tone for example. I'll send you an email with the instructions.

[+spyder8]

I have just started working with my Nextel phone that is loaded with the Trimble software. A couple of basic comments about the software platforms.

 

1 - The phone software is a Java application,

as it is listed with the other Java programs and games.

 

2 - the PC Planner software is written using the Microsoft .NET workbench. This was my first installed software program using the .NET foundation, which meant a 23meg download and installation. I happen to install it on a 1.2Ghz laptop with MS-XPpro, so not sure how, or if, it will run on other Windows systems.

 

After I get it up and running, I'll be adding comments here,

or sending them directly to the Trimble Outdoors support folks.

[superstition]

Spyder8 - you can program the launch of the Trimble Outdoors Application to the left softkey on the i860 so that you launch the application with the press of a single button. I've found this to be very fast and convenient. To do this goto Menu-->Settings-->Personalize-->Left Softkey-->OK-->Trimble Outdoors

[cpyles]

Well to answer the question about other systems, I have the Adventure Planner running at home on a 500 MHz Laptop running WINXP Pro and a 2.0 GHz computer at work running Win 98SE and it is running just fine on both, matter of fact the one at work is also on dial up and it doesn't seem to go any slower than at home with DSL.

[+spyder8]

(1) yes - the Trimble app is on the left soft key -

(2) nice to see it runs on Win9x -

(3) here is a gotcha with EasyGPS - that had me doing some head scratching...

I posted a new thread about EasyGPS and their .LOC file... so don't reply here -

--

 

PS> I am testing out the Nextel phone + Trimble software and wanted to download my .LOC files to the phone. I happen to use EasyGPS for editing & saving my .LOC files. Well, it appears that EasyGPS

PS> saves the .LOC file in an internal binary format vs the plain text XML format coming from Geocaching.com - Of course they work fine for reading by EasyGPS, and sending to my Garmin GPS, but the

PS> Trimble program can't read the "binary" .LOC file saved by EasyGPS, but can read the "properly formatted" .LOC file created by Geocaching.com.

 

PS> It does not seem appropriate to use the same .LOC file format suffix,

PS> when it is not the same format as coming from Geocaching.com.

 

You (and Trimble) should be using GPX for this. It's fully documented at

http://www.topografix.com/gpx.asp

 

Binary .loc came first and has several flavors. Two of which just

happen to contain XML. Back when Jeremy Irish and I came up with the

geocaching XML format, we had no idea people would use it for any

purpose other than getting data from geocaching.com to EasyGPS. Well,

actually, we did, and GPX evolved out of that realization.

 

.loc is a dead format and EasyGPS will only save in GPX format in the

future.

[+Sevateem]

I have a Nextel i710. Do I need the Trimble soft-ware to just use it as a GPSr ? The book that came with the phone is not very helpful. Using the phone now it takes a long time to get a satellite fix and doesn't update as I move.

[superstition]

I have a Nextel i710. Do I need the Trimble soft-ware to just use it as a GPSr ? The book that came with the phone is not very helpful. Using the phone now it takes a long time to get a satellite fix and doesn't update as I move.

 

I work for Trimble and have used the i710 phone GPS a lot. The GPS native to the phone is underwelming - you can get a single fix and that's it. Trimble Outdoors software enables the phone to be a full GPSr with the typical navigation screens like satellite skyview, track page, navigation page (with a compass display), etc. Check out http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/EvolutionGPS.aspx for more info. If you only desire your phone to be a GPSr then you can download (over the air) the Trimble software for a $20 one time fee (supposed to be available from your phone's browser next week - like a ring tone or game for example). If you desire to plan trips using the Trimble Adventure Planner and Trimble Outdoors web site then there is a monthly fee of $4.99 or $9.99 that's added to your Nextel phone bill. The monthly fee includes the data plan to send routes, waypoints, maps, and photos over the phone wireless connection (available now from any Nextel store, online at Nextel.com, or through Nextel's 800#).

[+Sevateem]

Thank you superstition. That is just what I wanted to know.

[+kc8bdr]

I have a I710 that set up with Nextel. I upgraded to the i710, as it was GPS enabled and had the thought that I could use that to go caching, I did not have GPS of any kind. What I did not realize at the time was that I would need to pay Nextel $10 or $15 a month for the full capability. Since I got the phone I picked up a Magellan meridian platinum that works fine for caching (without the maps)

 

The i710 will display your current position after using the refresh button. And that sometimes will take a while. I did manage to find my first few caches this way, but is not (to me anyway) the best way to go caching. (but beat not going at all )

 

I could not justify $10 much less $15 a month for the increased capability on the phone.

 

My $318 Magellan without the maps works great for caching and there are no fees.

 

I may at one time get maps and a memory card, but have not found a real need for them.

 

Jim

[superstition]

I could not justify $10 much less $15 a month for the increased capability on the phone.

Since you are not using the Trimble mapping application for waypoint management and transfer to the Nextel phone you don't have to pay a monthly fee for Trimble Outdoors. There is a $20 one time fee for this option called "Silver" - very similar to your Magellan but less expensive because you already have the phone. This particular product will be officially on sale next week and you should be able to download it to your i710 using the web browser that came on your phone. Send an email to support@trimbleoutdoors.com requesting a demo and they will arrange for you to download a demo for a free test today if you would like to try it out before commiting the $20.

[+bigeddy]

Any scuttlebutt on how the Sprint-Nextel merger will affect Trimble's service? I've read that Nextel's iDEN and Sprint's CDMA technology are incompatible and that Nextel services will migrate to Sprint's network, making all the Nextel phones obsolete. Of course, this will take time to happen but how long?

[superstition]

Any scuttlebutt on how the Sprint-Nextel merger will affect Trimble's service? I've read that Nextel's iDEN and Sprint's CDMA technology are incompatible and that Nextel services will migrate to Sprint's network, making all the Nextel phones obsolete. Of course, this will take time to happen but how long?

All Sprint phones sold today contain GPS. It's a fairly straight forward process for Sprint to enable their phones to operate the same way Nextel's GPS phones do. Additionally, Nextel has 15 million customers and millions use GPS in their phones for tracking, turn by turn driving directions, and other uses. So the Sprint-Nextel deal will simply make Nextel GPS technology available to the combined Nextel-Sprint customer base which totals 40 million people. I'm guessing a deal that large would take a year to close and another few years to integrate - in otherwords Nextel's network won't go anywhere fast and Sprint will likely accelerate their GPS phone upgrades. I expect Verizon will be forced to upgrade GPS phone capabilities too. Consumers will win big with this one in my opinion - and so will geocachers

[+spyder8]

I have been working with the Nextel / Trimble Outdoors software.

 

For those of you interested in seeing a map of some geocaches,

here is the test trip I have created.

 

http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/TripViewFra...asp?TripID=1156

 

The web map is large, because we live near Chicago,

but went up to Wisconsin, and also over to Michigan -

so the map frames the entire area.

 

Use the "+" and "-" at the top to zoom,

and click on the area to re-center.

[+Sevateem]

I put the Silver package onto my i710 phone as a Christmas present to myself. Will soon see how I like it.

[eggman7360]

Personally, I can't stand nextel at all ! I use one at work only as required by my employer. I have found that their service is unreliable and would never even DREAM of using something that has an unreliable reputation for navigation.

[+spyder8]

The Trimble Outdoors website for their Nextel/GPS software

and their PC Trip Planner software

now has a discussion forum online -

 

http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/forums/