Liability Question

August 9, 2002

I recently almost fell into a farmer's drainage devise - approx 30" in diameter & about 6ft. deep, covered in very tall grass, totally obstructed and was about 10ft. from target cache.

Does the searcher proceed and take all the risks, or is the person who creates the cache liable if he/she doesn't highlight all potential hazards.

If land is private, and owner doesn't know of potential hazards, or doesn't tell geocache creator about the hazard, is there liability involved? What if geocache creator doesn't ask land owner about potential hazards?

What about liability issues on public lands

August 9, 2002

I care not if the land owner was informed or not. It is pure poppycock to even think about a lawsuit of any kind if you do not pay attention to where you are while looking for a cache.

Sure, it would be nice for the cache placer to post hazards, but then again, as a hunter, you need to pay atention to what you are doing...

I think this needs to be the end of this thread, and if not, then I can dig into all the silly crap some people find to try and sue other people about. When you get right down to it, it's not all that funny...

Zahrim....

August 9, 2002

I care not if the land owner was informed or not. It is pure poppycock to even think about a lawsuit of any kind if you do not pay attention to where you are while looking for a cache.

Sure, it would be nice for the cache placer to post hazards, but then again, as a hunter, you need to pay atention to what you are doing...

I think this needs to be the end of this thread, and if not, then I can dig into all the silly crap some people find to try and sue other people about. When you get right down to it, it's not all that funny...

Zahrim....

1k · August 9, 2002

The laws will vary greatly depending on your laws. here in Maine, the law states a landowner is not liable for another person using his land for recreational purposes as long as the hazard was not placed maliciously. So technically, you yourself would have been liable had it been here.

However in this day and age, that does not mean the cache hider, property owner, tupperware company, or the companies who made the booty nuggets could not be sued as if it was their fault.

Anyway, check your local laws, there is probably a web page that has the basic laws listed there. Ours is listed under "Landowner Liability".

I agree with you, Zahrim. If I'm lucky enough that a landowwner lets me on his property, I'd surely want to take responsibility for my own stupidity...

Warning: Objects in GPS may be closer than they appear!

August 9, 2002

You have to take responsibility for your own actions. To even think that someone else is responsible for what you are doing is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you go out in the country to hunt a cache, watch where you're going for god's sake.

August 9, 2002

Though... What it comes down to is a 'small hand full' of people who think they might hit pay dirt by try'n to sue others...

Heck.... The silly fools that got away with the tabacoo law suit, are at it again by trying to sue the 'fast food chains' now. As, it is there fault that people are fat from eating food.

August 9, 2002

I'm no lawyer but while it would be nice if everyone took responsibility for themselves, it seems to me that it would fall under what a reasonable person would expect. Is it reasonable to be walking, even tresspassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning? I was just on a 45 degree slope trying to find a waypoint tag. What if I slipped and fell. Would I have recourse against the cache owner? Scarey, but those kind of situations are bound to come up. Maybe we need cache placer's insurance? God forbid. But, the day a situation comes up like this, it could close a lot of areas to caching. Or, require that a well lit, maintained and marked trail, with hand rails, be required from a designated parking lot all the way to the cache.

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin

August 9, 2002

Yup. It all sounds good for what I see. What it comes down to is local law. And think it true or not, there are still some stupid 'local' laws out there... I just don't want some pore guy try'n to do a good thing ending up with a 45k$ law suit/bill for being in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Zahrim....

August 9, 2002

quote:
I'm no lawyer but while it would be nice if everyone took responsibility for themselves, it seems to me that it would fall under what a reasonable person would expect. Is it reasonable to be walking, even trespassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning?

Yes it would be expected... For what it comes down to is this.... If you are plying with the rules and are 'out in the woods', then you have to ply by the 'woods owners rules'.... This is not based on any private cache... Just common since...

August 9, 2002

quote:
I was just on a 45 degree slope trying to find a waypoint tag. What if I slipped and fell. Would I have recourse against the cache owner? Scarey, but those kind of situations are bound to come up.

Hmmm... From what you say here.... ''''YOU are on the slope'''' Why whould ANYONE else be tag'd as a party to YOUR fall?

6.5k · August 9, 2002

legal reply

this note is on every cache page at geocaching.com:

"Note: To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer."

the full disclaimer is here:

http://www.geocaching.com/disclaimer.asp

but to shorten for you its says in bold:

"Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache."

also in there is:

"Any person or entity that relies on information obtained from Geocaching.com does so at his or her own risk."

the information referred to could be cache coords.

of course thats just this site's disclaimer, you could try to sue a personal geocacher but since the disclaimer comes up even to visitors and non-registered geocachers i think it would be hard to win.

6.5k · August 9, 2002

more personal reply

sorry to hear you were injuried to were almost injuried, but you were the one who went geocaching.

if you come across possiable dangers then dont continue your search, and you should contact the cache owner and explain what the danger is so that the cache can be moved/archived. you would probly also want to put a note on the cache page stating that you fell in a snake pit, walked into a claymore, triped and slipped off the cliffs on the way to cache, or whatever elase may have happened.

August 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by welch:
more personal reply

sorry to hear you were injuried to were almost injuried, but you were the one who went geocaching.

if you come across possiable dangers then dont continue your search, and you should contact the cache owner and explain what the danger is so that the cache can be moved/archived. you would probly also want to put a note on the cache page stating that you fell in a snake pit, walked into a claymore, triped and slipped off the cliffs on the way to cache, or whatever elase may have happened.

http://www.scubaboard.com/images/smilies/whack.gif

walking into a claymore would suck.

1.1k · August 9, 2002

I can't even come up with words for this one.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

3k · August 9, 2002

I think Jeremy is probably beating his head against his computer monitor after seeing this thread. Surely, the originator of the thread must be liable for any damages Jeremy incurred.

3k · August 9, 2002

I think Jeremy is probably beating his head against his computer monitor after seeing this thread. Surely, the originator of the thread must be liable for any damages Jeremy incurred.

August 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bukosky:
Is it reasonable to be walking, even tresspassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning?

A thoughtful cache owner will avoid unexpected hazards or warn about them in the description.

Potential liability is evidently a concern because I had a cache rejected in part because it was considered dangerous--you had to take a picture of a street.

August 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bukosky:
Is it reasonable to be walking, even tresspassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning?

A thoughtful cache owner will avoid unexpected hazards or warn about them in the description.

Potential liability is evidently a concern because I had a cache rejected in part because it was considered dangerous--you had to take a picture of a street.

38.2k · August 10, 2002

Disclaimer, or not, people can (and will) sue for any reason. I've seen some cache owners who add a disclaimer to their cache pages, in addition to the one on the Geocaching website. I guess this affords another level of protection, but if someone wants to sue you it's not going to help much. Whether or not the suit is legitimate or winnable, it will wind up costing you money to defend yourself.

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

August 10, 2002

The question of liability for injury suffered by a cacher in search of treasure falls under the legal area of negligence. Typically, in order for someone to be held negligent, they must have some legal duty owed to others, must have breached that duty, and the breach must have been the proximate cause of the injury suffered by the injured party. Along with that is a principle known as Assumption of the Risk. Jeremy's disclaimer makes it clear that anyone relying upon the information on the site assumes all risks involved in seeking a cache. Jeremy's adequately protected.

As for liability of others, if the cache is located on publicly owned land, the governmental entity owning the land would be protected pretty well by sovereing immunity (you can't sue the government, unless the government agrees to be sued).

For caches located on private land, typically a landowner is liable only for forseeable risks (assuming that the injured party is not a trespasser, in which case the landowner is completely protected, unless there exists some "attractive nuisance" such as a swimming pool which might attract children "of tender years" who don't know any better than to go drown in your pool). Plodding through the woods is commonly recognized as entailing some risk to the explorer, the nature of which risks are more than likely unforeseeable to the landowner.

As for liability to the hider of the cache, unless it was intentionally placed with some idea toward harming the unwary, there would be no liabilty.

That, in a nutshell, is the law in every state. As for other countries, I have no idea, but would assume that, for the most part, it is the same.

BTW, I am an attorney and regularly handle personal injury cases. A cache hunter who falls into an abandoned mine shaft? I wouldn't touch the case.

August 10, 2002

Be responsible for your own actions!

No-one told you to walk in the ditch, take a lt turn, board the plane, get the surgery etc,,,,

"If you're not the lead dog, The view is always the same"

1.4k · August 10, 2002

The stupidity has finally hit Geocaching too. I will be removing my caches this weekend.

I can't take a chance, I worked too hard getting where I am to lose it all because of some dumb-*** who can't keep from spilling hot coffee between their legs while searching for my cache.

Lots of rattle snakes out here, I could be held responsible if someone gets snake-bite in the rump while they search for the cache.

I could be sued for the doctor removing cactus thorns from somebody's rump cause they fell into a patch of Prickly Pear. Don't even try a Fish-hook Barrel Cactus! Actually, this might be worth it, if I could watch!

What if someone drowns in an arroyo due to a flash flood from rain on the mountain 5 miles away? Is it an act of god that caused the rain, or am I responsible for causing them to cross the arroyo just as the flood came along?

Hmmmm... if someone gets into an accident while driving to a geo-cache, is the cache hider responsible? I will need to keep a map of all local caches in the car, and my GPS too. If I ever have an accident, I hope I have time to look-up the nearest cache before the ambulance crew drags me out.

If someone is reading the GEOCACHING.COM web page, and lightening hits the power lines, is Jeremy responsible for the damage?

All the notices and disclaimers mean nothing against a dumb cacher and a greedy lawyer.

Making something "Absolutely foolproof" can only be done if you comprehend how truly awful an "Absolute Fool" really is.

After reading all of this, I wonder how many of you will rush out and remove your caches? Watch out for snakes and cactus thorns...

DISCLAIMER. I will not be responsible for you getting snake-bit in your rump, or for getting cactus thorns in your rump, because my message caused you to immediately remove your cache! I will also not be responsible if you have an accident on the way! And I am not responsible if you are struck by lightening while reading this.

Mike. KD9KC.

El Paso, Texas.

Seventeen minutes after her FIRST call for help, police officers arrived to find Ronyale White dead.

Prohibiting self defense is the ultimate crime. Police carry guns to protect themselves. What protects YOU ???

3.5k · August 10, 2002

Thank you LYRA for the info. Sounds like we can rest easy. Stupid is as stupid does. If you're stupid don't bother blaming anyone but yourself!

2k · August 10, 2002

As it happens I am currently working in El Paso and spend my evenings looking for caches. I have been attacked by those @#*& cactuses more than once in my explorations. I would like to think that myself and my fellow cachers would look at this as part of the hazards of being out in wilds. If this is not the case I am afraid this hobby will come crashing down around our ears.

Lost? Keep going. You're making good time anyway!!

August 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Bernie & Sheri:
Be responsible for your own actions!

No-one told you to walk in the ditch, take a lt turn, board the plane, get the surgery etc,,,,

Hard to argue with that, but in my mind the point to be stressed here is the responsibility of the cache owner to provide the best possible experience within their control. That should include, within reason, avoidable hazards.

A small example: I placed a cache in the late Fall. Around Spring, people started to complain about biting ants. Turns out I hid the cache near an ant colony that wasn't active late in the year. So I moved it a short distance and posted new cordinates. Better for the people, better for the ants. I've seen other poorly-placed caches--near bee colonies, under poison oak, on unstable rock ledges--that have little to do with liability but everything to do with being a good host.

August 10, 2002

Sure, it has to do with being a good host, but there are lots of "hazards" I would never think to mention. "Oh, and by the way, make sure to walk *around* the tree at N.... W....." If I searched a cache in a farmer's field, I would expect that there might be a well, or furrows, or irrigation pipe, or old farm equipment, or.....

I tell my kids to "watch where you're walking". If a cacher isn't able to both scan the GPS and watch where they're walking, I suggest that they stop walking from time to time, and use that time to look at the GPS. If it means you have to do the Hula from time to time, isn't that better than having to be rescued from some hazard you blindly walked into?

Personally, I would feel really stupid having to be rescued from some hole, culvert, or other hazard that I fell into. I can just hear the rescue workers now: "Whassa matter, lady, can't ya even see your own feet? bwa haa haa!"

In terms of who is liable, I appreciate the post from the personal injury attorney. It's good to know that there are some frivolous lawsuits that don't get filed due to savvy attorneys.

I'm not going to let it stop me from Geocaching. With everything that I could already get sued about, just living a normal life, Geocaching is just a drop in the bucket. If someone breaks their neck searching my cache, then I'll remove 'em.

Shannah

August 10, 2002

Sure, it has to do with being a good host, but there are lots of "hazards" I would never think to mention. "Oh, and by the way, make sure to walk *around* the tree at N.... W....." If I searched a cache in a farmer's field, I would expect that there might be a well, or furrows, or irrigation pipe, or old farm equipment, or.....

I tell my kids to "watch where you're walking". If a cacher isn't able to both scan the GPS and watch where they're walking, I suggest that they stop walking from time to time, and use that time to look at the GPS. If it means you have to do the Hula from time to time, isn't that better than having to be rescued from some hazard you blindly walked into?

Personally, I would feel really stupid having to be rescued from some hole, culvert, or other hazard that I fell into. I can just hear the rescue workers now: "Whassa matter, lady, can't ya even see your own feet? bwa haa haa!"

In terms of who is liable, I appreciate the post from the personal injury attorney. It's good to know that there are some frivolous lawsuits that don't get filed due to savvy attorneys.

I'm not going to let it stop me from Geocaching. With everything that I could already get sued about, just living a normal life, Geocaching is just a drop in the bucket. If someone breaks their neck searching my cache, then I'll remove 'em.

Shannah

9.1k · August 10, 2002

Applause from a fellow lawyer to Lyra for the understandable and accurate legal analysis. It is nice to have a SMART lawyer posting on the boards instead of just me!

BUT... I think the best point in this thread was made by BrianSnat (who is looking especially dapper today, I might add). Just because someone is legally "right" doesn't mean they can rest easy. Anybody can sue for just about anything. There will either be defense costs (lawyer's fees) or settlement costs (to just make it go away) even if someone is "right."

I am still more likely to get in trouble by driving my car or setting out those landmines in my ex-wife's driveway than I am from placing a geocache. It's a risky world and life goes on. I wish the original poster in this thread could adopt that attitude.

Finally, as to public lands, see the Pennsylvania state parks thread in the Northeast forum. We are working with the State Parks and State Forestry Departments. Originally there was an indemnity clause where the cache placer had to promise to pay any legal fees, damages, etc. incurred by the State if anything happened to a geocache hunter. We succeeded in convincing the Parks Dept. lawyer that geocaching is not an inherently dangerous activity, and the indemnity clause was dropped. (yay!) But the Forestry Dept. still wants the geocacher to be responsible for the costs of site restoration and for removing any illegal or hazardous materials from their geocache.

::: sigh :::

There are too many lawyers. I think I'll go jump into a farmer's drain. Scratch one!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

August 10, 2002

I am just beginning this thread so pardon me if I say anything that has already been said.

I am not one who is a big fan of the litigious society we have. There is way too much abuse of our legal system by opportunists that will leap onto any chance to get a pay day. Some of them are not driven by their own need for compensation but by an attorneys influence to take advantage of the situation. Then, who collects the payday. The injured party? Nope. The lawyer. I may be extreme on lawyers here but as much as I agree that there are good lawyers, I used to work as a legal assistant and knew many, there are those who are always looking for their lotto ticket.

All that said, I would agree with a comment that you need to check your states laws and the totality of the situation. It probably isn't a clean cut issue. A lot of questions would probably need to be asked and the situation judged on a case by case situation. For example, Was the person who placed the cache the land owner? Was the cache placed with the land owners permission? Were you seeking the cache with the land owners permission? Regarding the hazard, Was it in a state of disrepair or other condition or position that was neglegent? Was the pipe in a location where hiking or other activities would be expected and the fact that the high grass wasn't cut to reveal the hazard and and the absence of a grate placed over the pipe to protect from children or other people falling in was in any way an illegal danger neglegent or irresponsible ?

If the land owner, with knowlege of the hazard, gave permission for the caching activities and didn't secure it there might be some liability if you were given permission to engage in an activity where that hazard was of a known risk to you.

Unless the cache owner is the land owner, or had some sepecific knowlege of the hazard and it's harmful and irresponsible concelment, and lack of a secure shield from people getting hurt, I don't think the placer of the cache should be responsible. I also don't know if the cache owner has any legal responsibility to know of that situation and make note of it on the information listing. I think a responsible cache placer should, at least, be knowlegable of every location that he is placing his/her cache. Is it a legal responsibility? I don't know. An ethical and moral responsibility? I think so. That is my opinion though. However, if the cacher didn't have permission to place the cache on private property, Knew of the hazard and didn't tell of the expectation of the hazard and knowingly placed the cache without regard for the safety of the people who would seek it than there could be some accountablity.

This issue may very well be part of what is on the minds of land stewards who are reluctant to agree and authorize the placement of the cache. They may be affraid that if sombody gets hurt searching for a cache, or by something contained in a cache, they might be held liable for any injuries. That may be especially true when dealing with private land owners. Government entities may not have as much concern since they have deeper pockets, adequate insurance, taxing authority to pay for settlements... However placing on a private university or college campus, private school or church grounds, cemetaries, personal property, farms... and the range of private properties you might encounter stiff opposition from the land owners or their representives due to these potential liabilities.

The moral of this thread, Make sure you have permission to place. Especially on private lands. Know the surroundings and the caches impact on them or their impact on your cache or cachers that you are drawing to the cache. You might say place and apologize later but what apology are you going to make when the complaints are being hand delivered by the sheriff with SUMMONS written on top. It may seem unrealistic and unfair but unfortunately it is probably just a matter of time.

[This message was edited by wmas1960 on August 10, 2002 at 06:10 PM.]

August 10, 2002

I just had a scary thought relating to some other threads I have read. What would people here think of a cachers liability if he/she placed a cache that was located in proximity to an area frequented by people hooking up for sexual activity. Then some teenagers or young college age kids wandered into the area looking for the cache and were confronted harassed or even assaulted by somebody who missunderstood their purpose for being there. If the cache owner was made aware of such an environment and the potential for such a situation and didn't note the risk on his cache page or decide to archive or relocate the cache, could sombody some day try and hold the cache owner responsible. If the park or forest preserve knew of the existance of this location and activity, could they or are they being held responsible?

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bukosky:
I'm no lawyer but while it would be nice if everyone took responsibility for themselves, it seems to me that it would fall under what a reasonable person would expect. Is it reasonable to be walking, even tresspassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning? I was just on a 45 degree slope trying to find a waypoint tag. What if I slipped and fell. Would I have recourse against the cache owner? Scarey, but those kind of situations are bound to come up. Maybe we need cache placer's insurance? God forbid. But, the day a situation comes up like this, it could close a lot of areas to caching. Or, require that a well lit, maintained and marked trail, with hand rails, be required from a designated parking lot all the way to the cache.

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin

August 10, 2002

If I understand the original post, your reply and another previous one may be a little flawed.

I am not a lawyer but I think there may be an issue where Geocaching.com can not absolve liability for any other party or prevent you from seeking compensation from another party like a state, county or federal parks or forest agency or a farmer or private land owner. The disclaimer you mention, I believe, is intended to protect Geocaching.com and their owners and operators from liability for caches that are listed on this site. However, for example, If a cacher placed a cache in a location where he/she intended to draw people and do some sick harm to them or force them to go through some unreasonably dangerous environment to hurt them, without informing them of risks, than while Geocaching.com may not be responsible the cacher, I would hope, would be held fully responsible in accordance with the law. The fact that Geocaching.com says that seekers are fully responsible for their actions does not relieve some sicko of responsibility if he places an exploding ammo box as a cache.

As for another post that referred to expectations and hunting for caches in the woods etc. This situation is not in the woods where you are, I agree, responsible because you are dealing with natural occouring features of nature and the land. Nobody is responsible for those hazzards because the hazards are formed without the hiders control or influence. What we ARE talking about here, if I remember, is a farm where a drainage device 30" diameter and 6' deep is placed deliberately, and under control of the land owner, in an area that contains high grass, is conceled and not covered with any protective grate. That is where I say, if the farmer/land owner is aware of the cache, the existance of the drainage pipe, It's condition and is agreeable and knowlegable of and to the cache and the searchers browsing his fields (land)looking for the cache and he/she doesn't take effort to make that pipe safe from searchers he/she may be responsible due to irresponsibility or neglegance. A Geocaching.com disclaimer does not relieve a land owner for such responsibilities.

Besides, I would like to point out that many disclaimers have been successfully challenged in court and found to be illegal or inadequate.

Don't automatically depend on the fine print on a concert ticket, sports ticket, film envelope....

quote:
Originally posted by welch:
legal reply

this note is on every cache page at geocaching.com:

"Note: To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer."

the full disclaimer is here:

http://www.geocaching.com/disclaimer.asp

but to shorten for you its says in bold:

"Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache."

also in there is:

"Any person or entity that relies on information obtained from Geocaching.com does so at his or her own risk."

the information referred to could be cache coords.

of course thats just this site's disclaimer, you could try to sue a personal geocacher but since the disclaimer comes up even to visitors and non-registered geocachers i think it would be hard to win.

http://www.scubaboard.com/images/smilies/whack.gif

August 10, 2002

I don't know and would be interested to know the answers to your concerns. But, I would think that most of the situations you refer to could not be a reason for you being liable. Unless you knowingly placed your cache in a snake pit or a coyote den and said come find this and we can have a party... As for the arroyo(sp?) or snakes in the area... These are all risks of the wild. Organic, natural or wild occourances for which you do not have control of. If you place a cache in a forest and a cacher seeks it out during mating season and while looking through your ammo box gets attacked by a large white tail buck defending his mate, You, probably, would not be responsible since that is not your control. You have no way of knowing that incident would occour. However, if you deliberately placed the cache in a known coyote den and the seeker reaches in and gets attacked by an angry mother, you might be in some trouble. Of course, I wouldn't mind being there to see how a skilled hider would place a cache in an occupied coyote den.

quote:
Originally posted by KD9KC:
The stupidity has finally hit Geocaching too. I will be removing my caches this weekend.

I can't take a chance, I worked too hard getting where I am to lose it all because of some dumb-*** who can't keep from spilling hot coffee between their legs while searching for my cache.

Lots of rattle snakes out here, I could be held responsible if someone gets snake-bite in the rump while they search for the cache.

I could be sued for the doctor removing cactus thorns from somebody's rump cause they fell into a patch of Prickly Pear. Don't even try a Fish-hook Barrel Cactus! Actually, this might be worth it, if I could watch!

What if someone drowns in an arroyo due to a flash flood from rain on the mountain 5 miles away? Is it an act of god that caused the rain, or am I responsible for causing them to cross the arroyo just as the flood came along?

Hmmmm... if someone gets into an accident while driving to a geo-cache, is the cache hider responsible? I will need to keep a map of all local caches in the car, and my GPS too. If I ever have an accident, I hope I have time to look-up the nearest cache before the ambulance crew drags me out.

If someone is reading the GEOCACHING.COM web page, and lightening hits the power lines, is Jeremy responsible for the damage?

All the notices and disclaimers mean nothing against a dumb cacher and a greedy lawyer.

Making something "Absolutely foolproof" can only be done if you comprehend how truly awful an "Absolute Fool" really is.

After reading all of this, I wonder how many of you will rush out and remove your caches? Watch out for snakes and cactus thorns...

DISCLAIMER. I will not be responsible for you getting snake-bit in your rump, or for getting cactus thorns in your rump, because my message caused you to immediately remove your cache! I will also not be responsible if you have an accident on the way! And I am not responsible if you are struck by lightening while reading this.

Mike. KD9KC.

El Paso, Texas.

Seventeen minutes after her FIRST call for help, police officers arrived to find Ronyale White dead.

Prohibiting self defense is the ultimate crime. Police carry guns to protect themselves. What protects YOU ???

August 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bukosky:
Is it reasonable to be walking, even tresspassing across an open field and suddenly find a man-made hazard without any warning?

Yes.

1.4k · August 10, 2002

quote:
I don't know and would be interested to know the answers to your concerns. But, I would think that most of the situations you refer to could not be a reason for you being liable. Unless you knowingly placed your cache in a snake pit or a coyote den and said come find this and we can have a party...

It was meant to be funny. I thought it was funny. However, YMMV. There was no guarantee that the item was funny. If you did not think the item was funny, you have no legal recourse but to move on to the next message. Just because one message may or may not be funny, you have no legal expectation that any or all other messages may or may not be funny. The sender of this message is not responsibly for your decision as to wether or not this, any, or all messages are funny. Do you understand these rights as they have been read by you?

Ddduuuhhhhh - - duhhh duhhh - - duh.

Ddduuuhhhhh - - duhhh duhhh - - duh - - duhhhhhhhh.

this is the city..... oops, sorry. Wrong station.

Mike. KD9KC.

El Paso, Texas.

Seventeen minutes after her FIRST call for help, police officers arrived to find Ronyale White dead.

Prohibiting self defense is the ultimate crime. Police carry guns to protect themselves. What protects YOU ???

August 10, 2002

Oh yes, I thought it was kind of funny in a sarchastic way. At least I was hoping it was sarchasm. However these days you never know. I suppose I shouldn't have attributed your points as concerns or addressed them as such serious points but I trying to illustrate a difference in your examples and what the original situation was. And, I was addressing an attitude that seems to be common in this thread about the rediculousness of lawsuits and that a cacher is totally responsible for his/her circumstances and that land owners or managers and cache placers never have any responsibility for their caches or the properties and locations where they are placed.

dadgum, I am getting too serious again.

Oh well, Sorry about not getting your joke.

quote:
Originally posted by KD9KC:

quote:
I don't know and would be interested to know the answers to your concerns. But, I would think that most of the situations you refer to could not be a reason for you being liable. Unless you knowingly placed your cache in a snake pit or a coyote den and said come find this and we can have a party...

It was meant to be funny. I thought it was funny. However, YMMV. There was no guarantee that the item was funny. If you did not think the item was funny, you have no legal recourse but to move on to the next message. Just because one message may or may not be funny, you have no legal expectation that any or all other messages may or may not be funny. The sender of this message is not responsibly for your decision as to wether or not this, any, or all messages are funny. Do you understand these rights as they have been read by you?

Ddduuuhhhhh - - duhhh duhhh - - duh.

Ddduuuhhhhh - - duhhh duhhh - - duh - - duhhhhhhhh.

this is the city..... oops, sorry. Wrong station.

Mike. KD9KC.

El Paso, Texas.

Seventeen minutes after her FIRST call for help, police officers arrived to find Ronyale White dead.

Prohibiting self defense is the ultimate crime. Police carry guns to protect themselves. What protects YOU ???

3.5k · August 10, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by wmas1960:
And, I was addressing an attitude that seems to be common in this thread about the rediculousness of lawsuits and that a cacher is totally responsible for his/her circumstances and that land owners or managers and cache placers never have any responsibility for their caches or the properties and locations where they are placed.

The common attitude of this thread IS correct! You can always find exception and examples outside the norm. Should I shiver and hide from the world? Of course we are responsible for what we do! That's the point! We ARE responsible for our OWN actions. Let's not try and pin it on someone else. If you fear a pitfall...don't go adventuring! Buck up boy, and come find a cache, then give us your opinions.

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August 10, 2002

I am torn with a few different feelings about your previous post. Should I respond and run the risk of starting something or should I just move on and maybe leave the impression that your posting of my profile somehow offends and frightens me.

Yes, I have not actually pursued a cache yet. I have my reasons for that though. They are really nobodies business I do not believe though that since I haven't pursued a cache yet that somehow I am not entitled to an opinion. Actually I don't think your opinion and mine are that far off but you obviously don't see my thoughts that way. Maybe the differences is that I recognize that land owners and cachers may have some responsibility for their willing and deliberate neglegance. Maybe even some for their unwilling or accidental lack of foresight. I think, whether it is a mine shaft, an abandoned well, or drainage pipe that is not covered and is conceled from view in an area where people are going to be looking for a hiding place, and where someone could fall in and get injured, I think that land owner may have some liability. If he doesn't want that responsibility than don't concent to allow people to roam around your land. Post for no tresspassing and protect your land rights. If you invite people on your land and they get hurt, you have some responsibility.

Of course, as I said in my posts, if you are tresspassing, do not have permission to place or seek, or are in the wilds of nature than you are on your own. People, (cachers) can not control the existance, travel or actions of wildlife. They can not control the natural decay of a tree and that tree falling on somebodies head, or the rushing waters of a heavy rain in the mountains.... Therefor in those situations I agree that cachers and parks or even private property owners should not be responsible for those types of uncontrolable actions. Cacher beware...

I read a post not too long ago by a guy who wanted to put some chemicals in his cache. He said it was a science experiment and would be packaged safely and that finders could take the materials home and using supplied instructions perform the experiment. One person who seemed knowlegable pointed out the flaws in the writers plan and demonstrated how heat from the sun or moisture trapped inside the airtight container could cause a reaction that could be starved for oxygen inside of the air tight container. First person who opens the container could be subject to a reaction that could be very dangerous. If a cacher did this and presented it in his information sheet as benign and totally safe and your kid opened the box to get a chemical flash in his/her face injuring them, I ask you, would the cacher be responsible? Or is your kid responsible for their own actions.

I have to say that my feelings here are that you overstepped reason with your actions. I don't care that people can choose to see my profile on their own innitiative. That is why I didn't put anything in there that I felt might be sensitive. However trying to make a point of emphasizing my lake of experience with caching and trying to intimidate me off by posting it for the whole world, in my opinion, is an action that really SUCKS. I hope all the others here don't have such attitudes.

quote:
Originally posted by EraSeek:

quote:
Originally posted by wmas1960:
And, I was addressing an attitude that seems to be common in this thread about the rediculousness of lawsuits and that a cacher is totally responsible for his/her circumstances and that land owners or managers and cache placers never have any responsibility for their caches or the properties and locations where they are placed.

The common attitude of this thread IS correct! You can always find exception and examples outside the norm. Should I shiver and hide from the world? Of course we are responsible for what we do! That's the point! We ARE responsible for our OWN actions. Let's not try and pin it on someone else. If you fear a pitfall...don't go adventuring! Buck up boy, and come find a cache, then give us your opinions.

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August 10, 2002

I am torn with a few different feelings about your previous post. Should I respond and run the risk of starting something or should I just move on and maybe leave the impression that your posting of my profile somehow offends and frightens me.

Yes, I have not actually pursued a cache yet. I have my reasons for that though. They are really nobodies business I do not believe though that since I haven't pursued a cache yet that somehow I am not entitled to an opinion. Actually I don't think your opinion and mine are that far off but you obviously don't see my thoughts that way. Maybe the differences is that I recognize that land owners and cachers may have some responsibility for their willing and deliberate neglegance. Maybe even some for their unwilling or accidental lack of foresight. I think, whether it is a mine shaft, an abandoned well, or drainage pipe that is not covered and is conceled from view in an area where people are going to be looking for a hiding place, and where someone could fall in and get injured, I think that land owner may have some liability. If he doesn't want that responsibility than don't concent to allow people to roam around your land. Post for no tresspassing and protect your land rights. If you invite people on your land and they get hurt, you have some responsibility.

Of course, as I said in my posts, if you are tresspassing, do not have permission to place or seek, or are in the wilds of nature than you are on your own. People, (cachers) can not control the existance, travel or actions of wildlife. They can not control the natural decay of a tree and that tree falling on somebodies head, or the rushing waters of a heavy rain in the mountains.... Therefor in those situations I agree that cache owners and parks or even private property owners should not be responsible for those types of uncontrolable actions. Cacher beware...

I read a post not too long ago by a guy who wanted to put some chemicals in his cache. He said it was a science experiment and would be packaged safely and that finders could take the materials home and using supplied instructions perform the experiment. One person who seemed knowlegable pointed out the flaws in the writers plan and demonstrated how heat from the sun or moisture trapped inside the airtight container could cause a reaction that could be starved for oxygen inside of the air tight container. First person who opens the container could be subject to a reaction that could be very dangerous. If a cacher did this and presented it in his information sheet as benign and totally safe and your kid opened the box to get a chemical flash in his/her face injuring them, I ask you, would the cacher be responsible? Or is your kid responsible for their own actions.

I have to say that my feelings here are that you overstepped reason with your actions. I don't care that people can choose to see my profile on their own innitiative. That is why I didn't put anything in there that I felt might be sensitive. However trying to make a point of emphasizing my lack of experience with caching and trying to intimidate me off by posting it for the whole world, in my opinion, is an action that really SUCKS. I hope all the others here don't have such attitudes.

quote:
Originally posted by EraSeek:

quote:
Originally posted by wmas1960:

And, I was addressing an attitude that seems to be common in this thread about the rediculousness of lawsuits and that a cacher is totally responsible for his/her circumstances and that land owners or managers and cache placers never have any responsibility for their caches or the properties and locations where they are placed.

The common attitude of this thread IS correct! You can always find exception and examples outside the norm. Should I shiver and hide from the world? Of course we are responsible for what we do! That's the point! We ARE responsible for our OWN actions. Let's not try and pin it on someone else. If you fear a pitfall...don't go adventuring! Buck up boy, and come find a cache, then give us your opinions.

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August 10, 2002

Hey Jeremy, I found your memory leak! It seems it is this thread. If you delete it all will be fine.

August 10, 2002

Hey Jeremy, I found your memory leak! It seems it is this thread. If you delete it all will be fine.

August 10, 2002

Sorry for the double posting of my last post. While editing a couple typos I accidentally sent one as a reply to the other. I now can't delete either of them.

3.5k · August 10, 2002

Forgive me. That probably was inappropriate. A gut reaction, 58 posts, 0 activity. Makes me wonder what the motivation is. And yes, there are people out there every now and then doing stupid things that should be guarded against. Sueing is a very cheesy way to approuch every problem that comes our way. Not the first option that usually come to my mind. Fixing the problem is.

1.8k · August 10, 2002

I'll second the statments of my fellow counselors Lyra and The Leprechauns (which would be a good name for a band), and add a bit more that I'm surprised they didn't add. Lyra wrote,

quote:
For caches located on private land, typically a landowner is liable only for forseeable risks (assuming that the injured party is not a trespasser, in which case the landowner is completely protected, unless there exists some "attractive nuisance" such as a swimming pool which might attract children "of tender years" who don't know any better than to go drown in your pool).

Way back in this thread, I wrote the following (slightly edited to apply to this thread):

At least in Washington state (and I assume the rest of the US, but I'm not sure), there's three groups of people that a property owner owes differing levels of protection to.

The lowest level of protection is owed by a property owner to a trespasser. The property owner merely has the duty to not show ''willful or wanton misconduct'' to the trespasser (the classic example in Washington is you can be liable if you string a wire cable neck-high on a trail used by trespassing motorcyclists).

The middle level of protection is owed by a property owner to a ''licensee.'' A licensee is a person who the property owner has explicity or implicity allowed on the property, but who the property owner hasn't invited. Social guests and salesmen fall into this category.

The property owner would be liable if there is a dangerous condition on the land that the property owner knows of, and in spite of that, the property owner doesn't make it safe or at least warn licensees of the condition. The drainage device that DaleF asks about probably falls into this category.

A property owner owes the highest level of protection to an ''invitee,'' which is someone they have invited on to the property. One law firm in the state (Lane Powell) has written that

''An invitee can be classified as either a 'public invitee' or a 'business visitor.' A public invitee is a person invited to enter or remain on land, as a member of the public, for the purpose which the land is held open to the public. A business visitor is a person who is invited to enter or remain on land for a purpose directly or indirectly connected with the business dealings of the landowner.''

Fortunately for Washington property owners, RCW 4.24.210 says that landowners who allow the public to use their land for recreation without charging a fee aren't liable for unintentional injuries.

But what does this mean for the person who hides a cache? They don't get the landowner protection, and they're ''inviting'' others to use the land. Although my whopping 10 minutes of research haven't found any support for or against it, I suspect that because the cache hider isn't the land owner, they wouldn't be held liable for any naturally occuring condition that may injure a cache seeker. But for non-natural conditions (vehicle traffic? dangerous parts of town? barbed wire? a drainage device?), I'm left wondering what level of protection the cache hider owes the invitee. At the very least, I'd post as much of a warning as I could about anything slightly dangerous.

This also, surprisingly, is a reason to *not* ask permission of property owners to place caches. Yes, if they've opened their property to the public, the RCW should protect them, but if they don't even know about the cache, it's easier for them to say that an injured cache seeker is a licensee instead of an invitee, which would allow them more leeway to defend themselves.

If you live outside of Washington state, your laws may vary. Inside Washington state, I don't guarantee a thing I've just said. You'll need to hire your own lawyer to be sure

To answer DaleF's original question, if you hide a cache near a hidden man-made drainage device, they could sucessfully sue you only if you knew about it and didn't warn them. Similarly, if you provide coordinates for a great hike and someone slips into a bottomless pit on the way, you'd be liable if you knew about the pit and didn't warn them, or if the pit wasn't naturally occuring. More likely, though, they'd sue the property owner, too, because the law's a lot clearer with that defendant.

For my caches, at least, I'd warn as best as I could about anything I knew about that may be dangerous.

Don't take this as true legal advice; this does not create any attorney client privilege. I'm rubber, you're glue. Nyeah

I take my family everywhere, but they always find their way back home.

1.8k · August 10, 2002