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twilliams

Geocaching Banned - The End Of Geocaching

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I think the sheep have more problems on their hands what with the deadly dihydrogen monoxide problem.

ROFLMAO,

 

I have heard of that stuff. I have heard that it is the most common substance on the face of the earth yet it is extremely deadly when inhaled!!!

 

It's a wonder why this hasn't been banned yet.

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...some of them with criminal records...

I propose a background check and a 3 day waiting period on all GPSr sales. That should solve the problem.

 

</sarcasm>

And all GPS receivers must be registered. All geocachers must be photographed, finger printed and licensed. Licenses will not be recognized from state to state. Harsh penalties for violating any of the above requirements. :(

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If the accuracy is improved to the degree postulated in some of the posts, then I can only begin to imagine how creatively the caches are going to be disguised, camouflaged, and hidden.

 

I have seen some examples of cache containers here on the site and was mighty impressed, knowing that I would have a hard time finding some of them.

 

Accuracy of <1 metre = all devious and wicked cachers applying their craft impressively!!!!!!

 

YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!!!

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...some of them with criminal records...

I propose a background check and a 3 day waiting period on all GPSr sales. That should solve the problem.

 

</sarcasm>

And all GPS receivers must be registered. All geocachers must be photographed, finger printed and licensed. Licenses will not be recognized from state to state. Harsh penalties for violating any of the above requirements. :(

Did you forget DNA sampling for the national database??? Or the new surgichip programmed to identify you?

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...some of them with criminal records...

I propose a background check and a 3 day waiting period on all GPSr sales. That should solve the problem.

 

</sarcasm>

And all GPS receivers must be registered. All geocachers must be photographed, finger printed and licensed. Licenses will not be recognized from state to state. Harsh penalties for violating any of the above requirements. :(

Yeah, they'd be smart that way. Who'd object to just registering their GPS? There's no harm in just registering, right?

 

Well, that is until a year or two down the road there's a knock at the door and there stands some little pencil neck geek with two burly stormtroopers. He asks in a detached, half-polite tone that which really isn't a request, "We're here to pick up your GPS unit. May we have it please?"

 

Well, what are you going to do? They know you have it! Like a good little sheep you registered it like you were told to. What, you gonna claim, "I lost it on a hunt, I dropped it in the river. I don't have it anymore?" Uh-huh, now is when your house is torn down in a "gentle" search, ground penetrating radar over your whole yard and every little blimp results in backhoe use, and your friends, family, and co-workers interogated at length.

 

No, I ain't registering my GPS! They can have it when they pry my cold, dead...

 

ahem... whew! Got carried away there for a minute. :(

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You go Cr-GPSr's don't trample sensitive environments, or hide caches in stupid places! Besides people who are paranoid probably have a good reason to be. :mad:

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This sport is gonna self-destruct, no doubt about it.

29083_10200.gif

Edited by TEAM 360

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It's possible for geocachers to self-destruct without the sport self-destructing.

b20dadf9-b9e6-4f47-9d78-5d32ada66fa6.jpg

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I hope newbies can see exactly what goes on around here. <_<

I'm sure some do. Probably why some stay as lurkers.

 

It's funny how favoritism works; you're either blind to it, one of the favored, or told to shut up.

 

I was waiting for another Off Topic thread to pop up just to see how it as treated. I wasn't disappointed in the least.

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Yes, I suppose the moderators could close down all the "Happy Thanksgiving" and "Happy Birthday" topics, too. Then there would be complaints that we hate holidays. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

 

In any event, please do not use this thread to complain about perceived injustices with the forum moderation. Use the "approvers at" address if you wish for Groundspeak to look into a moderator's action. Thanks.

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I hope newbies can see exactly what goes on around here.  :yikes:

I'm sure some do. Probably why some stay as lurkers.

 

It's funny how favoritism works; you're either blind to it, one of the favored, or told to shut up.

 

I was waiting for another Off Topic thread to pop up just to see how it as treated. I wasn't disappointed in the least.

I will be a great day when everyone (including myself) stops worrying about what others do and spends more time worrying about themselves <_< .

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Do you really need Hydee to tell you to do the right thing?

 

Ask yourself this, how long would that thread have stood if it was Duane who posted happy birthday to PC Medic?

 

"Perceived injustices" could cause someone to do some unfortunate acts that could get geocaching banned in some areas.

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For what it's worth, one way to prevent the end of geocaching is to increase awareness and participation in the sport.

Get a couple million people all doing the same activity and the politicians start to listen!

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I will be a great day when everyone (including myself) stops worrying about what others do and spends more time worrying about themselves.

It'd be a great day when everyone is treated equally.

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... please do not use this thread to complain about perceived injustices with the forum moderation. Use the "approvers at" address if you wish for Groundspeak to look into a moderator's action. Thanks.

Second and final warning to return this thread to its intended topic. Thanks.

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For what it's worth, one way to prevent the end of geocaching is to increase awareness and participation in the sport.

Get a couple million people all doing the same activity and the politicians start to listen!

There are other detriments that come along with the growth of the sport.

 

1) If there are millions of people out doing it, the government, (local, state and/or federal), will want to regulate it, in some way.

 

2) For the same reason, people who have never even been geocaching will try to cash in on its success. This may have already happened on a small scale, but just imagine our caches being inundated with advertisements, (instead of a GC sticker, it would be "This cache sponsered by..."), ugh. This would water down the sport considerably.

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I am wondering what will happen as well, I think that people need to just be cautious about where they place containers of any kind for caching.

 

Kinda On topic, I didnt know anything about michigan charging a user fee for cachers. As far as I know, nobody is charging anything. I live in michigan, and have never hears of this.

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Cleenjeep & Danger Girl Posted on Nov 22 2004, 06:57 AM

  I am wondering what will happen as well, I think that people need to just be cautious about where they place containers of any kind for caching.

 

I can't wait to see what other cachers say about this cache (GCM46H)today. I went and found the cache at 8:00 am this moring and it's less then 100 feet from an elementrary school. If a bus driver, teacher, or a student would have seen me a bomb squad would have been called. I am glad I was sly about it. Anyway, who approved this cache? I thought placement of caches had rules and guidelines that were supose to be enforced.

 

<_<

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Cleenjeep & Danger Girl Posted on Nov 22 2004, 06:57 AM

  I am wondering what will happen as well, I think that people need to just be cautious about where they place containers of any kind for caching.

 

I can't wait to see what other cachers say about this cache (GCM46H)today. I went and found the cache at 8:00 am this moring and it's less then 100 feet from an elementrary school. If a bus driver, teacher, or a student would have seen me a bomb squad would have been called. I am glad I was sly about it. Anyway, who approved this cache? I thought placement of caches had rules and guidelines that were supose to be enforced.

 

<_<

 

Holy cr*p is this for real?

 

Well I'm not the one to say, but I would suggest that if it's 100yds from school this should get gently archived.

 

Or not so gently. Don't we have enough wilderness/park area and enough creativity to NOT put boxes near schools, hospitals, govt. buildings, airports, or in areas that would create an obvious danger for the cacher?

 

-t-

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I am wondering what will happen as well, I think that people need to just be cautious about where they place containers of any kind for caching.

 

Kinda On topic, I didnt know anything about michigan charging a user fee for cachers. As far as I know, nobody is charging anything. I live in michigan, and have never hears of this.

FYI;

 

The Michigan geocaching permit thread:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=83766

 

It's hard to know about this stuff unless you look for it - but we'd ought to (ugh this is hard to say) follow all these rules silly or not. Otherwise there could be a lot of "state park archived" caches if they have some free time on their hands, if you get my meaning.

 

-t-

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This cache [EDIT: referring to the Colorado cache mentioned above] was reviewed by the volunteer reviewer for Colorado. Looking at the cache page, I would also have listed it. Click on all the map links, and read the cache page, and then tell me how the reviewer is supposed to know that this cache is next to a school? We don't actually go and look at each cache site. Perhaps the only clue is the statement on the cache page: "This cache will be an education for you!" I am not sure that this statement alone would have motivated me to question the cache.

 

Responsibility for obtaining adequate permission and choosing an appropriate spot that meets the site's listing guidelines is, first and foremost, the cache owner's responsibility. The reviewers do their best to check compliance, but can only go off of the information available from the cache page and mapping tools.

 

I would encourage finders to note issues like this in their log and/or in an e-mail to the cache owner. If no satisfactory answer is received and a finder believes the situation to be serious enough, then logging a "should be archived" note will return the reviewer's attention to the cache.

Edited by Keystone Approver

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I want to mention that IF it ever looks like it will be banned, that WE THE PEOPLE can form a lobbying group.

 

The California 4WD association has done that. They lobby and have become political, when other special interest groups have pushing closing public land to off road recreation. We're not gonna take it! and we self regulate, and we tread lightly, and we leave no trace and we have a helluva good time doing it.

 

ITS PUBLIC LAND PEOPLE! Since WHEN can the govt. tell you HOW TO ACT AND WHAT TO DO while recreating!

 

I would hope for a HUGE outcry of protest if the govt. PTB ever did anything like that. Likely, it will be another group that steps up and pushes for banning geocaching. and we would push back.

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amytincan makes an excellent point. Many state or local geocaching groups trace their origins to the need to band together in order to "discuss" geocaching as a group with a land manager who was considering banning or regulating it. In many, if not most, cases, mutually acceptable conditions have been agreed upon.

 

There is no true national or international organization of geocachers, but Renegade Knight's Terracachers project seeks to fill that space. With the exception of land managers like the U.S. National Park Service, however, most issues tend to arise on a more local level and can be dealt with quite successfully by geocachers at that level.

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A good step in the right direction is the creation of a Code of Ethics. Many groups have one. We don't. Why?

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I think we sort of have that on this web site with the guidelines. Where this fails is when other sites have much looser policies. A "code of ethics" could be developed if all geocaching sites had the same guidelines, but they don't. If you can't get your cache listed here then many take it to another site and list it there since the other sites will list just about anything.

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Well, the cache listing guidelines might be considered as *part* of an overall code of ethics... dealing with the hiding and maintenance of geocaches. But nothing formal and official governs the *finder* side of the equation. Don't trample the ferns to bushwack when you could stay on the trail. Don't take a new flashlight in exchange for leaving a dirty golfball. And so forth. There are some fine examples of commonsense guidelines like this already available, such as in past issues of Today's Cacher or on geocaching organization websites (North Carolina is one that comes to mind).

 

Perhaps I am jaded from being a cache reviewer, but week in and week out, I see cases where the cache owner clearly has not read the listing guidelines (i.e., when I receive an e-mail back saying "sorry, I did not know that..."). Assume there was a checkbox we all had to agree to in order to hide or find a geocache on any listing site: "Have you read, understood and agreed to the geocaching code of ethics?" I doubt that the rate of compliance for reading and following such a document would be any higher than is the case with the geocache listing guidelines.

 

To clearly relate this to the topic, I agree with CR that a code of ethics -- if it is *read* and *followed* -- would be beneficial in our public relations with land managers, thus forestalling further efforts to regulate or ban geocaching.

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The guidelines are more than a code of ethics. The guidelines stipulate and regulate more than what a code of ethics would. For example, is it ethical to create a commercial cache? Of course it is, but it's hard, if possible at all, to get one approved here.

 

Is it ethical to create a virtual cache? Of course it is, but you have to jump through hoops here to get it approved.

 

Is it ethical to knowingly place a cache right next to another cache? No it isn't, but gc.com doesn't check other sites to see before approving one here.

 

Furthermore, a code of ethics would guide folks on how to act on hunt. It's not just about placing caches.

 

This site's guidelines include that which protects gc.com. A Code of Ethics is for everyone and would not be site specific. (Probably the reason it would never fly here.)

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Furthermore, a code of ethics would guide folks on how to act on hunt.  It's not just about placing caches.

In my experience, the people most in need of explicit guidance on how to act are the very LAST people who would read and follow instructions.

 

I'd probably violate the code of ethics just because the very expression "code of ethics" gives me the shivering jim-jams. I'd undersign a code of "mind your own business" though.

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the only way geocaching will ever end, is, if we a cachers end it ourselves. besides i just got into paperless caching...it cant end now <_<

regards

archie

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I'd undersign a code of "mind your own business" though.

I'd hope that's actually "we need to self police" rather than telling me to shut up.

 

That's not to mention if it's a declaration of we should be able to do anything we want, then my answer is if we don't mind our own business, then the authorities will mind it for us.

 

...just like the NPS has, thank you very much.

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I'd hope that's actually "we need to self police" rather than telling me to shut up.

I'm in no position to tell anyone to shut up (in fact, not telling other people to shut up is arguably a component of minding your own business).

 

But...do you really believe that writing down a short list of basic good practices will change anything for anyone? Do you think oaths alter behavior? Particulary the behavior of people who are otherwise inclined to behave badly? Do you think someone who was inclined to throw trash in the woods will forbear to do so because it says "A good geocacher never throws trash in the woods" in our code of ethics? Or is it more a matter of, "Oh, no, Ranger Rick. That person throwing trash in the woods couldn't have been a geocacher, because we have a Code of Ethics"?

 

Seriously. That just amazes me.

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But...do you really believe that writing down a short list of basic good practices will change anything for anyone? Do you think oaths alter behavior?

I think the answer to these is yes. Many people will say "Hey, I never thought of that and boy those are good ideas." We see that with the guidelines for example, as Keystone states about many of the nice email replies we get. We have had a couple of Leave No Trace classes as part of our local organization event caches. We don't see this as a futile endeavor and hope our members get something from the classes. This to me is part of the ethics that CR is talking about, though we just don't have it written down.

 

Particulary the behavior of people who are otherwise inclined to behave badly?

Sadly, the answer to that *is* no. People break into churches and steal things. How low do you have to be to do that? There are all types of people out there. That is a fact. But, if you have such a cynical attitude that you don't think that anyone would benefit from a code of ethics then you need to get some more dead bolts for your doors on your house and you need to stay there. I know there is a bad element out there, but I generally believe that humanity is good as a whole. I think we as a whole want to learn and want to better ourselves, even if it is trying to make something as basic as finding tupperware in the woods better.

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I don't believe anyone would think that a Code of Ethics would cure all forms of ill. But I can guarantee that a short, concise code would be a lot better than having 10 different places to look and a quarter million words to read. Heck, if your post is too long you lose some.

 

EDIT: content.

Edited by CoyoteRed

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As one who has been on the net since 1988, this topic reminds me of the constant "It's the death of the internet!" panic that happened in online discussions about every month or two. The internet is still about to die, I guess. :yikes:

 

Also reminds me of this one guy who was proclaiming that "coffee is a slow poison!" This other old guy piped up and replied: "Wow, it must be! I've been drinking it for 60 years!"

 

Geocaching will survive the way the 'net survives... by constantly adapting and evolving and innovating. I have faith. <_<

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But, if you have such a cynical attitude that you don't think that anyone would benefit from a code of ethics then you need to get some more dead bolts for your doors on your house and you need to stay there. 

It's not a matter of cynicism, but of common sense. There's a big difference between teaching a course, and writing down ten bullet points. I looked at a couple of the codes of ethics CR linked to. They are so very basic that, indeed, I don't think a soul would benefit from them.

 

People with a scrap of sense and basic good manners will have worked out that much for themselves.

 

People without a scrap of sense or manners are unlikely to change because you write out a list for them.

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People with a scrap of sense and basic good manners will have worked out that much for themselves.

 

People without a scrap of sense or manners are unlikely to change because you write out a list for them.

What's the point of laws then? Outlaws are only going to ignore them. <_<

 

A Code Of Ethics makes good sense.

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What's the point of laws then?  Outlaws are only going to ignore them.  <_<

Precisely so. However, with laws, there are punishments.

 

Do you think people who are restrained by laws restrain themselves "because it's a law" or because they fear the consequences of breaking the law?

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What's the point of laws then?  Outlaws are only going to ignore them.  <_<

Precisely so. However, with laws, there are punishments.

 

Do you think people who are restrained by laws restrain themselves "because it's a law" or because they fear the consequences of breaking the law?

I think most people who break laws think that they are not going to get caught. Obviously the consequences don't mean much to them.

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To expand on what Gorak said, I am restrained by the ethics that the law is drafted for, not because I am afraid of the punishment. I don't refrain from shooting someone because I am afraid of going to jail for the rest of my life. I don't do it because I know its wrong. As Gorak says, some people out there will do it anyway, so we have laws to deal with them if they do.

 

Actions <--> consequences.

 

I will also kill your "(CR's linked codes of ethics) are so very basic that, indeed, I don't think a soul would benefit from them." theory right now too. I personally would not have thought about bringing a small shovel if I were backcountry skiing. I learned something right there.

Edited by mtn-man

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Actually, I think a Code of Ethics is closer to being polite and having manners than conducting yourself within a framework of laws.

 

As just an example, let's take the above cache with it being pretty close to a school. A bullet point might be to not place a cache that might cause a disruption to place of learning or any business or government building. So, being any Joe Blow you shouldn't place a cache near a school. However, because it is a code and not a rule--plus not written to prohibit caches near schools--a teacher could place a cache so her class can learn about caching. The reasoning behind this is if someone at the school sees some stranger skulking around they might be concerned, but if it's Miss Jones with her science class, it's different. The point is the cache shouldn't be disruptive.

 

With the talent represented on this board I'm sure the basic core information learned up to this point could be distilled down to about 10 codes--all without being overly restrictive or site specific. Heck, have them linked to further explainations and examples if need be.

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To expand on what Gorak said, I am restrained by the ethics that the law is drafted for, not because I am afraid of the punishment.  I don't refrain from shooting someone because I am afraid of going to jail for the rest of my life.  I don't do it because I know its wrong.  As Gorak says, some people out there will do it anyway, so we have laws to deal with them if they do. 

So for you, the law is not necessary. Most of those for whom law is necessary are not restrained by law. A few would be outlaws, but they fear the consequences.

 

Actions <--> consequences.

Uhhh....thanks. And peanutbutter <---> jelly to you, too.

 

I will also kill your "(CR's linked codes of ethics) are so very basic that, indeed, I don't think a soul would benefit from them." theory right now too.  I personally would not have thought about bringing a small shovel if I were backcountry skiing.  I learned something right there.

You'd have small shovels in your ethical guidelines? Are you sure you're talking about a Code of Ethics, and not a list of helpful hints?

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CR, I have one that will go active today at a school. It is just as you describe above with a teacher listing the cache. I asked the questions to make sure everyone knew about it. They wrote back:

The school administrator has been notified and is fully aware of the use of the premises for this purpose.  This cache is being used for educational purposes with a 6th grade class.

I will be happy to list that cache when the class goes out as a group to hide it today. They listed the cache page to make sure we would be OK with it first. They have done it right it looks like.

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To expand on what Gorak said, I am restrained by the ethics that the law is drafted for, not because I am afraid of the punishment.  I don't refrain from shooting someone because I am afraid of going to jail for the rest of my life.  I don't do it because I know its wrong.  As Gorak says, some people out there will do it anyway, so we have laws to deal with them if they do. 

So for you, the law is not necessary. Most of those for whom law is necessary are not restrained by law. A few would be outlaws, but they fear the consequences.

A code of ethics could help those like me that *want* to stay within the law.

 

I will also kill your "(CR's linked codes of ethics) are so very basic that, indeed, I don't think a soul would benefit from them." theory right now too.  I personally would not have thought about bringing a small shovel if I were backcountry skiing.  I learned something right there.

You'd have small shovels in your ethical guidelines? Are you sure you're talking about a Code of Ethics, and not a list of helpful hints?

Obviously you did not read those web sites very closely. :D There is an ethical reason for carrying that shovel. I will let you go back and see if you can figure it out for yourself.

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...and what about this point. It would be good for the game to be seen to have a code of ethics. "It's not enough that it be done, it should be seen to be done."

Now, that all looks like an exercise in public relations but part of 'being seen to be done' involves self policing and as was said above, it can't be left simply to the approvers. All cachers need to use the 'should be archived' option in a case like a cache near to a school or any other sensitive location. The basic premise that started this thread is legitimate but is also avoidable with a bit of care and attention. If it means that some have to do the 'care and attention' thing for others then so be it. If you want the game to continue that is!

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... and in geocaching there is an ethical reason to *NOT* carry a shovel :D , unless you are independently honoring LNT ethics in an area where that is appropriate.

 

I wonder whether we should start a separate thread on the subject of a Code of Ethics? Coyote Red, you brought it up first, and it is one of several observations that is on-topic to the issue of forestalling "The End Of Geocaching." But the last several posts have all dealt with just that one aspect of the larger question. Should we just continue in this topic, or split off all the posts?

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A code of ethics could help those like me that *want* to stay within the law.

But are too stupid to work out the ten basics for yourself? Note that I am not calling you stupid, I'm saying that any list boiled down to its essentials is too boiled down to teach anything new.

 

Obviously you did not read those web sites very closely.  :D  There is an ethical reason for carrying that shovel.  I will let you go back and see if you can figure it out for yourself.

I don't do homework assignments. I assumed it had something to do with what the bear does in the woods without recrimination. But if you're boiling it down to a short list of ethical guidelines, you wouldn't get an explicit, "if you poop in the woods, please bury it." It would be more along the lines of "don't leave anything behind."

 

And you know that already. You just never thought of poop in that context, having been misled by its naturalness.

 

Any list short enough to be a Code of Ethics must of necessity be distilled down to the perfectly bloody obvious. It's the gray areas where most of us need some help.

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