Parks With User/entrance Fees? Why Cache There?

November 12, 2004

Ok, I admit it... Im a cheap a**. If I can do something for free, Im there. Im all about not having to spend money outright.

That said, I was checking out some caches to do today out in our fabulous hillcountry and quite a few I came across were in state or local parks that require a user fee.

Its not that I dont have the money, but wouldnt it be better if the caches were out in the public where you dont have to worry about stuff like user fees?

I dont mean to be picky, but I guess I just dont get it. Yes, the lands are pretty and yes, you are supporting Texas Parks and Wildlife, but honestly, I do that already, but if Im caching, I dont want to take my wallet if you know what I mean.

1.4k · November 12, 2004

Skip those cache then.

Some people don't like virts. They don't hunt them

Some people don't like Multis. They don't hunt them

Some people don't (or can't) want to pay park entrance fees. They don't hunt them.

22k · November 12, 2004

If there are fees, the cache page should say so.

Since I have to pay to get in there anyway, I'd at least like to have a cache to hunt for.

Edited November 12, 2004 by 11 After

9.4k · November 12, 2004

Well said, Harrald.

I placed a couple of caches in a New Mexico State Park. There is a fee. Why place them in the park? All land surrounding the park is privately owned. The area was part of the government's largest land grant many years ago. The only place you can place a cache is inside the park. Everywhere else is off-limits.

2.6k · November 12, 2004

I've gotten so I don't leave the house until I know where I should park. That usually involves looking up a park's web site, which will give me that info ahead of time. I can think of several cases where parking in the main lot had a charge, but parking in an alternate lot didn't. Or there was a parking fee only when someone was there to collect it.

Anyhoo, do your homework and skip those, if you like. You cheap so-and-so

3.8k · November 12, 2004

I typically use state parks and other properties that require a fee; I geocache in those places when I'm visiting them, but rarely do I pay a fee for them just to cache. As Harrald said, skip them. But remember them because you may find yourself near one someday. :lol:

Edit: In your case, can't you just flip out your badge?

Edited November 12, 2004 by sept1c_tank

November 12, 2004

I'm the biggest tightwad around these parts. I too, don't like paying to get into a park just to geocache, so I usually wait till I have a reason to go to the park (maybe a picnic or camping, etc) before paying to get in. It cost me $4 to get into a local state park here where 7 caches were hidden. I went for a picnic but decided to look for a few of the caches. It took me all day to find them (ended up doing all 7) and by the time I got done I realized that I had so much fun I forgot about the money. So don't do them unless you're planning to be there anyway.

Of course, you could sneak in (just kidding!!)

Edited November 12, 2004 by KB9BIT

November 12, 2004

I typically use state parks and other properties that require a fee; I geocache in those places when I'm visiting them, but rarely do I pay a fee for them just to cache. As Harrald said, skip them. But remember them because you may find yourself near one someday.

Edit: In your case, can't you just flip out your badge?

Yes, but thats a no-no. :-)

November 12, 2004

I see the logic in the "then just dont do those" recommendations, but I thought there might be something more profound for the reasoning LOL!

I go to Garner State park a lot so I will do caches there, but I dont think paying to cache is a good idea. I didnt know if others did that or not.

lets here some more views!

November 12, 2004

maybe spin it a different way....

why do parks charge the fees??

geez ...to i'm going to get upset if I answer that....

7.2k · November 12, 2004

Geocaching is a recreation. Many recreational areas charge a fee just to enter. Doesn't matter if you're hiking, caching, mountainbiking, or just looking at pretty views.

One could argue, "why does it cost me money to recreate here?"

It will be the same answer.

3.8k · November 12, 2004

why do parks charge the fees??

Because it costs more than the taxpayers spend to maintain and operate them.

I do agree that some of the fees for primitive camping (I think it's $12/night in Indiana state parks) seem to be unjustified. :lol:

November 12, 2004

I go to Garner State park a lot so I will do caches there, but I dont think paying to cache is a good idea.

Then you should get a Texas State Parks Pass. It pays for itself after a couple of camping trips or a few day trips.

November 12, 2004

why do parks charge the fees??

Because it costs more than the taxpayers spend to maintain and operate them.

I do agree that some of the fees for primitive camping (I think it's $12/night in Indiana state parks) seem to be unjustified.

I knew the answer to my ??.....

I didn't want to express my views on this......but now I will.

Why not ask for donations or memberships vs. user fees......

I personally think that there has to be a few individuals that can't enjoy an park because they can't afford the park fee.

Compare it to PBS..... I don't have to pay upfront to watch it...but they do ask for "members"......

I know I'd like to be a supporting member of the national park service...even if I don't want to travel that far to get to one except for 1 every 3 or 4 yrs.

November 12, 2004

newbie here: I like to look for caches in areas Ill be visiting. I typically don't cache in areas I won't be visiting.

There is one pay area here that has a cache, which is a fun outing for kids....I'm waiting for a reason to go.

November 12, 2004

I hope that the information about any fee would be shown on the cache page.

From there, I would want to know how much it is and how many caches are in the park. If there is only one cache, and the fee is more than a couple of dollars, I'll wait until more caches are placed there. I don't want to pay for a full day when I'll be in and out in under an hour.

The one example was $4.00 to get into a park with 7 caches. I can't even get into a movie on a weekday afternoon for $4.00. Spending the day caching in a park for $4.00? I can live with that. I would rather not pay at all, but I can live with it.

November 12, 2004

Don't like park fees and your hobby is metal detecting for coins? Jeez! Sounds like they need to give all you deputies down in Texas a raise!

Edited November 12, 2004 by prettynwitty

4.7k · November 12, 2004

here's my arbitrary line: i will pay up to four dollars for one cache. if i have to pay $7, i won't go unless there is more than one cache there.

i'm toasty with paying admission to recreational areas. user fees support keeping the parks and green spaces open instead of turned into condos. i'm even FOR paying the trail use fees of private landowners like XC ski areas. i am not in favor of caches that are placed for commercial promotion though, so there are a lot of grey areas there.

but for instance: there are two well-maintained XC areas in my general neighborhood. trail passes are these people's bread and butter. the land is in prime development country and little by little all the green space is being taken by housing developments and box stores. the landowners NEED to have income in order to keep the land open.

there's room on that land for a bunch of geocaches and because the have well planned trails and other amenities, caching there would be pleasant.

i'd just as well pay six bucks to those guys as i would to the state of NY, or VY, or NH.

it all supports open space.

November 12, 2004

...but I dont think paying to cache is a good idea.

Nothing is free. You spent money to purchase a GPSr. You buy batteries for that GPSr. Maybe you also carry other equipment with you when you cache. You purchased SWAG for trading. You spend gas money to drive to the cache area. What about lunch? How about the monthly fee for your internet connection to access this website?

If you can't bring yourself to pay a park fee for a cache, then don't do that cache untill there are a number of others in that same park area. That way, the "fee" is spread out over the caches in question, if you want to look at it that way. If you still can't bring yourself to open your wallet, pack a lunch that day instead of buying it. That will probably cover the cost of the park fee. And if you still can't do it, well, not sure what to tell you.

4.7k · November 12, 2004

afterthought:

as the state places more restriction on caching, private landowners are our next best hope.

the state of VT no longer allows ammo cans.

NYS has made some new restrictions about state land use. and they charge $7.

both of the private landowners i have in mind would be happy to host ammo cans, puzzle caches, night caches and all kinds of things that state parks might not. these people would let us put up false artifacts. oh, we could have a blast. many of our area cachers would like to see this land opened up to geocaching. it's great land and the trails are beautiful.

and yes, i could list these on an alternate site. people would visit them. i'd prefer for them to be listed here because i like here.

November 12, 2004

I think I pay a fee to help cover the cost of running a park, where my taxes don't do enough.

Paying for the rangers, the parking, the visitor center, the porta-potties, the search and rescue guys, etc etc etc.

I doubt someone who can't afford a park entrance fee ($10.00 Cdn for my nearest Provincial Park) can afford to Geocache.

Just my two cents (1.6 Amercian cents).

Dave

9.5k · November 12, 2004

Ok, I admit it... Im a cheap a**. If I can do something for free, Im there. Im all about not having to spend money outright.

That said, I was checking out some caches to do today out in our fabulous hillcountry and quite a few I came across were in state or local parks that require a user fee.

Its not that I dont have the money, but wouldnt it be better if the caches were out in the public where you dont have to worry about stuff like user fees?

I dont mean to be picky, but I guess I just dont get it. Yes, the lands are pretty and yes, you are supporting Texas Parks and Wildlife, but honestly, I do that already, but if Im caching, I dont want to take my wallet if you know what I mean.

Actually, I think you missed the point at what's free to play and what's pay to use.

It is free to play the game.

If you want to use the park, you have to pay the fee for parking there.

Just because one is coincidental to the other, doesn't negate the fact hunting for the cache is indeed free. You're just paying to use the facilities to park there.

Park outside the park boundaries and you will avoid paying the use fee.

5.3k · November 12, 2004

I do not have a problem with paying a park fee. You can spend money and pay the fee to use thepark, or you can spend money on gas to go to a cache that may be an hours drive away were there is no park fee. It still cost you money.

4.2k · November 12, 2004

Why not pay the fee?

Seems fitting and fair that if you enjoy being outdoors and the area that you should be williing to drop a couple bucks to support that, no?

The park systems protect the natural beauty of the outdoors - which is the basis of this RASH, right? I have no problem thropwing a few dollars thier way to help keep it up.

November 12, 2004

Good thing we're not golfers!

6.5k · November 12, 2004

Its not that I dont have the money, but wouldnt it be better if the caches were out in the public where you dont have to worry about stuff like user fees?

yes, thats why I propose you bugger your governing bodies into removing the fees and probably sending those parks more funding. Then all the caches in your area will be free.

(fixed quote)

Edited November 12, 2004 by welch

November 12, 2004

Hold on a minute. I was a Backcountry Ranger for about 5 years. I worked for an International Biosphere Reserve located in the mountains of North Carolina (Grandfather Mountain). This is a privately owned mountain that has one of the few paid trail crews in the state. We charged folks $5 a day for access to the Mountain's backcountry (12 miles of trails) and $10 a day for access to the developed side of the mountain. I think that it is easy for folks to observe nature as an entity all its own. That it does not need to be managed or cared for. The folks who work in these parks are highly motivated, over educated, and under paid individuals. It is honestly a labor of love. The sacrifices that I had to make because I feel that the environment has and is being neglected due to complete ignorance would be incomprehensible to most folks. I worked my first year making a mere $4.75 an hour. This was hard back breaking work. Just imagine hiking a minimum of 6 miles a day, digging out over 1500 water bars, building steps out of heavy stone, conducting search and rescues, recovering dead bodies, building new trials, refurbishing old trails, picking up other peoples crap (sometimes literally), issuing citations, administering first aid, teaching interpretive programs, selling a hiking permit to someone who has no clue about all of the above and therefore does not value what you do. There would be days where I would come in and not leave until the next afternoon because some frat boy decided to step out of his Dad’s Ford Excursion (dump truck with bench seating in the back) along with his frat boy friends and get lost in the Linville Gorge Wilderness Area. I am not as angry as this post sounds and I realize that I could have quit and done something more profitable, but my feeling was if I quit then who would take my place. It was hard work with high emotional rewards. It is my personal belief that we don’t pay enough.

Now I work for the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission as an Education Specialist. The money is a little bit better-24,000 a year-after taxes and insurance that amounts to about 1100 dollars a month to support a family of four. Like I said the pay is a little better. After tens years of working in the environmental field there is one thing that I have learned; the people who need us the most, who need to recreate, who want wide open spaces to play seem to be our greatest obstacle. To say that we are loving our Parks to death is an understatement. Our parks are lacking funding, they are understaffed, and more importantly their staffs are overworked and underpaid. Lets face it folks you get what you pay for. At some point you would think that I would realize that trying to run through a brick wall just will not work.

If communities can use Geocaching as a means to increase eco-tourism then so can Parks. Maybe that is a good way to sway some Park Admin. to allow caching in there parks. Something to think about

Nuwati

PS: Sorry if I rambled.

3.8k · November 12, 2004

If communities can use Geocaching as a means to increase eco-tourism then so can Parks. Maybe that is a good way to sway some Park Admin. to allow caching in there parks. Something to think about

This is a valid point. I have had conversations with the resident ranger in a small county park in Indiana. Although there is no fee to use the park, she invites geocaching because it helps to promote use of the park.

Personally, (and I know this has been said before) I don't understand why any park, including the national parks, wouldn't be open to geocaching simply because it could only boost their user fee capital.

24.7k · November 12, 2004

Why not place caches there? Is the scenery broken?

Most parks in my area have the fee on the car and not the person. So you can park a distance away and wear off 5 bucks of shoe leather to save the 5 buck fee if that's the angle you would rather attack life from. Maybe your parks are different.

November 12, 2004

In Texas you can pay a flat fee of approx $60 for a year long pass to all of the state parks and valid for the whole car (no pass means each person pays).

Since there is no such thing as "public land" in Texas (ie, no BLM land) that you can just "wander around" on unchallenged, I make it a point to support our state parks as much as possible.

I imagine park funding is much like anything else and is probably tied porportionally to the number of visitors.

2.5k · November 12, 2004

Why not place caches there? Is the scenery broken?

'Nuff said!

5.9k · November 12, 2004

I have one in a state park that requires $5 for parking in the lot. Notice I said, "parking in the lot".

2k · November 12, 2004

Ok, I admit it... Im a cheap a**. If I can do something for free, Im there. Im all about not having to spend money outright.

That said, I was checking out some caches to do today out in our fabulous hillcountry and quite a few I came across were in state or local parks that require a user fee.

Its not that I dont have the money, but wouldnt it be better if the caches were out in the public where you dont have to worry about stuff like user fees?

I dont mean to be picky, but I guess I just dont get it. Yes, the lands are pretty and yes, you are supporting Texas Parks and Wildlife, but honestly, I do that already, but if Im caching, I dont want to take my wallet if you know what I mean.

It's just a game, if you don't want to play take your gps and go home...

November 13, 2004

For those of us in California the cost is going way up:

Beginning July 1, California residents and visitors will have to pay more to pitch their tents at state campgrounds, set sail from state boat launching sites and to get into state-owned museums, California State Parks officials announced.

The department said the fee hikes are needed to offset a projected $15 million cut in its budget.

Under the revised fee schedule revealed Tuesday, the cost of an annual boat pass will increase from $45 to $75, day use permits that now cost $3-$5 will grow to $4-$14, and admission to Hearst Castle, currently $7-$12, will be raised to $8-$25 and $30 for an evening tour.

This could be very upsetting if you use a particular park often and can't find a way to walk in (since most of them charge the fees in association with parking). I can't imagine day use fee's existing anywhere at $14?!

But, heck, they do need money to maintain and support these areas if you don't want GW to sell them off for oil exploration or as commercial timberland. Use-fees sound irritating but you know we pick the people that decide how taxes get spent and where use-fees get raised. At least we get the direct benefit of these "tax"/fee dollars.

November 13, 2004

Don't like park fees and your hobby is metal detecting for coins? Jeez! Sounds like they need to give all you deputies down in Texas a raise!

Heh, the parks do not permit metal detecting.... :blink:

Ill take a relic any day over a coin :huh:

November 13, 2004

Some interesting and somewhat surprising comments here...

November 13, 2004

Many states have entrance fees for state parks, and many of those states have little other public land. I think it's fine to have caches in fee areas, but it should be stated in the description; I rarely carry cash. Bagged one cache recently that was technically in a fee area, and as normal didn't have any money on me. Luckily I was able to zip in and out without being noticed. If you're as cheap as I am, you can generally find an 'alternative' entrance...

An Arkansas state park was going to charge me $5/day to leave my car in a parking lot for a week while I backpacked the Ozark Highlands Trail (the official start of the trail is within the park). My solution, park two miles down the road on city lake property for free. I don't think they charge in Arkansas parks any more, the experiment failed because the state never planned for enforcement.

-Bob

November 13, 2004

Nuwati said it all.

Our situation is similar. If it wasn't for our teams of thoroughly dedicated, seriously over-worked and despicably low-paid rangers and reserve managers, most, if not all, of these areas would be barren wastelands - trees cut for fuel, wildlife decimated for food.

Our managed parks and reserves are havens for wildlife and humans both. The fees we pay are to maintain these wilderness areas for our children and their children's children.

Wouldn't you rather see a buffalo, a lion, an elephant or any of the other hundreds of wild animals roaming free, wild and procreating in a patrolled environemnt rather than only have a couple of pictures and far-fetched stories to pass on?

I don't resent having to pay for the priviledge of roaming around in wilderness areas. Not at all!!!!!

And if there's a cache there too? Heaven!!!!

November 13, 2004

Would you prefer those caches not exist?

1.6k · November 13, 2004

Most State Parks here in Indiana Charge a fee , Pokagon State Park and Chain O Lakes State Park , but it is minimal and there are enough Caches and Great Trails that make you forget about the small daypass fee, as to "capture" all the caches in each park would take all day , esp. if you took the time to enjoy the area wilst there.

The Metro Parks in the Detroit Michigan area charge you one fee , for a day pass that will get you into any and all Metro Parks for the Day . It is a small fee of 4 dollars, and well worth it . These Parks have some fantastic caches that the people that work for them have even placed , THey help promote our Hobby.

If I happen to come across a park and do not happen to have the cash on me ,I will save it for next time. But that will not deter me from going back and paying my share!

As has been stated before these Parks have trails , nature centers , pavilions , some have beaches and boat launches that all cost money to maintain.

Is it so bad to have to pay to get into a beautiful park ? I think not .

Star of Team Tigger International

November 13, 2004

Ok, my point is that I dont want to pay to cache in a park. If Im going there for other reasons like a day trip, camping or whatever, thats entirely different.

Of course I want the caches to exist in the park. Others wish to seek them.

Its not bad to pay to get into a park. I think my question was lost on some folks. :-)

November 13, 2004

I don't think it's that you question was lost on some folks. Every topic get analyzed to death from every angle in the forums and that's what occurred here.

That said, I don't really understand the perspective that you don't mind paying to get in for the day trip (presumably hiking, picnicing, etc...) or camping but do for caching. 4x4van made this great point:

"Nothing is free. You spent money to purchase a GPSr. You buy batteries for that GPSr. Maybe you also carry other equipment with you when you cache. You purchased SWAG for trading. You spend gas money to drive to the cache area. What about lunch? How about the monthly fee for your internet connection to access this website?"

I laughed when I first read the topic and thought about all the cash I spend hunting these boxes full of junk in the woods. Gas alone these days blows away the $2-$4 I might spend to get into a local park to cache not to mention all the other stuff 4x4 mentioned. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but between hunting and hiding, I end up spending a pretty decent amount of money on this hobby. My wife probably wishes I would play golf instead. :blink:

November 13, 2004

Wait for winter. In Indiana, most of the state parks do not charge admission from Nov to March. They are not going to pay someone to sit all day in a little booth and collect from the few adventurous patrons who might happen by.

So cache the 'pay parks' in the off season and save the free ones for the spring and summer. Winter caching is all it's cracked up to be, and I enjoy the added challenge of finding a cache in snow. No bugs, better GPS lock with no tree canopy and darn few muggles around. Oh, and did I mention: it's free!

5.9k · November 13, 2004

Ok, my point is that I dont want to pay to cache in a park. If Im going there for other reasons like a day trip, camping or whatever, thats entirely different.

Of course I want the caches to exist in the park. Others wish to seek them.

Its not bad to pay to get into a park. I think my question was lost on some folks. :-)

Didn't you read my post? If you park in their parking lot you have to pay, it's not an entrance or use fee. So park just outside the lot and walk the extra 100 yards or so. No drama.

November 13, 2004

So park just outside the lot and walk the extra 100 yards or so.

Not always so easy. In my area of California, most ex-urban parks are ringed with no parking zones. You'll approach a large regional wilderness area and signs will quite clearly say "No parking on this road - anywhere", and it's enforced too.

I pay to get into parks if I have to. At some point being cheap just results in denying yourself a great experience. You can go through life being cheap and die with lots of money. Is that worthwhile?

November 13, 2004

I paid $4 today to cache in a state park. I spent about 5 hours there and found 9 caches - all good ones and lots of hiking in beautiful wooded areas. That works out to about 44 cents per cache - well worth it to me :blink:

November 13, 2004

Texas State Parks are among our most favorite places to cache. I know that they are for others, as well. That is why I started a Guide to Geocaches in Texas State Parks several years ago. We buy an annual pass each year and feel it is money well spent. Given all the other money we spend on geocaching (gas, cache goodies, ammo boxes, etc.), the annual fee is not a significant additional expense.

I can understand your reluctance to some extent if it were a single park. That is the reason we have not hidden caches in some great city run parks near us, because the entrance fee would apply only to that park. However, even then, I think it is a personal choice. We have found caches in such places on occasion and have enjoyed ourselves immensely. Like all caching, it is a personal choice....if you don't like the kind of cache or the location, don't hunt for it.

6.5k · November 14, 2004

Ok, my point is that I dont want to pay to cache in a park. If Im going there for other reasons like a day trip, camping or whatever, thats entirely different.

Of course I want the caches to exist in the park. Others wish to seek them.

Its not bad to pay to get into a park. I think my question was lost on some folks. :-)

I guess I am one of those people...

You'll pay to get in to use the park, but only for things other than caching? And you want the caches there, so others (and you?) can find them when you do get in? :blink:

November 14, 2004

The fee-for-use parks in my area only charge for automobile entry or parking. If I'm seeking a cache in one of these parks I haul my bicycle, park outside the entrance for free, and bike in for free.

November 14, 2004

Being gratuitously cheap is just so... well... unattractive. :blink:

Parks With User/entrance Fees? Why Cache There?

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